Talk:Republicanism in Canada

Merge Proposal

I propose merging Debate on the monarchy in Canada into this page, Republicanism in Canada. Both pages have content relevant to each other, and lend context to each other's subjects. Seems to me that it doesn't make sense to have separate pages. TDK1881 (talk) 01:53, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Opinion polling

User:Miesianiacal believes that the section on opinion polling is POV and had tagged it as such (see Republicanism_in_Canada#Opinion_polling. His preference is either to remove the section entirely or replace it with "Polls have been conducted on the subject of abolition of the Canadian Crown." My view is this is a meaningless statement as it only states that polling occurred without mentioning what the polling shows. I have asked him to suggest wording that actually references the polling results but he has been unwilling to do this and said instead the entire section should be removed. I maintain that polls showing support for a republic are relevant to an article on republicanism.

Is the section NPOV? If so, how can it be improved? Wellington Bay (talk) 16:37, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

The section shouldn't be there at all. Any mention of polls should be stiched into the broader text, as it is at Monarchism in Canada. But, cherrypicking polls to back up a personal view is contrary to WP:NPOV and WP:OR. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 17:20, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

The polls are not cherry picked, they are the most recent polls available and the only ones I'm aware of that have been taken during the reign of King Charles. If there are other polls taken in the past two years please post a link to them and they can be included. Wellington Bay (talk) 17:39, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

You are inserting a claim that the majority of Canadians want a republic and a referendum, when, 1) only those who're polled give responses and 2) the sources you provide don't necessarily back up what you're trying to assert. What the pollsters actually say is, "Canadians are conflicted on the future role of the monarchy" (about results of a poll that uses the inaccurate and loaded terms "British monarchy", "monarchy as our head of state", "formal ties", "sever ties", "traditions like Canada’s relationship with the monarchy", "prefer a Canadian head of state", etc); "Canadians are very much split on their opinions when it comes to the monarchy"; while "(54%) agree (20% strongly/33% somewhat) that now that Queen Elizabeth II’s reign has ended, Canada should end its formal ties to the British monarchy", "a majority (55%) agrees (17% strongly/38% somewhat) that the constitutional monarchy helps to define Canadian identity and should continue to be our form of government"; "for one thing, royal fortunes rise and fall"; "thirty-one per cent think the monarchy is actually harmful for Canada, 18 per cent thing it is beneficial, but a solid 46 per cent think it is neutral"; "Canadians were asked if they agree that 'in an ideal world we wouldn't have the monarchy in Canada, but there are more important things for the country to deal with,' a stonking 79 per cent agreed, including 85 per cent of people who would vote to abolish"; "47% Canadians said they would vote to become a republic in a referendum tomorrow" (47% is not a majority). That's why there's an extensive section at Debate on the monarchy in Canada to cover all the biases, inconsistencies, and contradictions that you're not presenting here (or in any of the other two articles you inserted the exact same paragraph). --₪ MIESIANIACAL 18:00, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

":only those who're polled give responses" - that is how polling works. That's also why I used the word "suggests". As long as the poll is conducted with a random sample of the population and the sample is of a statistically significant size then it is considered valid, and a poll of 1000 people is a statistically significant sample size yielding a poll that "is accurate to within ± 3.5 percentage points, 19 times out of 20." Further I am not "inserting a claim that the majority of Canadians want a republic and a referendum". The Ipsos poll found that "54% Say Canada Should End Ties to Monarchy". 54% is a majority. Wellington Bay (talk) 18:21, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I've already outlined the mass of information you didn't insert here. If you insist on keeping your paragraph in the article, the rest of the poll info will have to be added to balance and give full context. Then you'll have to justify why this article should repeat, in full, the same info already covered at Debate on the monarchy in Canada. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 18:40, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

"Polls conducted on the subject of abolition of the Canadian Crown in 2022 and 2023, following the accession of Charles III, suggested that a majority of Canadians think there should be a referendum on the future of the monarchy and that more Canadians favour becoming a republic than do retaining the monarchy" is an accurate and neutral summary. If you insist we can have an RFC on the issue. Wellington Bay (talk) 19:52, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

The word "suggested" alone communicates that the whole is an interpretation. And, again, the interpretation leaves out a lot of facts, such as:

• Forty one per cent finding the monarchy unfavourable is not a majority
• Forty seven per cent stating they would vote to abolish the Crown is not a majority
• Forty per cent saying they would vote for abolition today is not a majority
• Asking about "sever[ing] ties" with the "British monarchy" is a leading question with inaccurate phrasing
• Fifty five per cent agreeing the monarchy helps define Canadian identity and ought to remain Canada's form of government is not a majority in favour of Canada becoming a republic
• Seventy nine per cent agreeing there're more important issues to deal with doesn't indicate an eagerness for change

There's also the question of why would this article mention only polls conducted in 2022 and 2023?

A more neutral wording would be, polls on the Canadian monarchy have been regularly conducted since the 1990s, showing an increasing disaffection with the monarchy, but, also internal contradictions in specific poll results. In regard to the polling of Canadians, the Lord Ashcroft pointed out in 2023 that "royal fortunes rise and fall." The polls themselves have been accused of using "inconsistent and sometimes ambiguous wording" and monarchists and republicans have objected to the way some questions are worded. Both groups also note, and it has been confirmed by polls, that Canadians are not well educated about the monarchy and its role.

That one paragraph doesn't require its own section, either. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 16:16, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

"Polls suggest" is my preferred wording based on what I learned in stats class years ago as polling is always an estimation and no poll is 100% accurate but has a margin of error depending on the sample size, for instance, - "a margin of error of plus or minis 3 percentage points, 19 times out of 20" which is why I prefer using a term like "suggest" rather than stating a poll result with more definitive languagge - but this is the case with all polls, not just the polls being cited here so you're reading far too much into my word choice. Looking at various reportage of polling results the more usual wording is "polls show" or "According to a poll by [name of polling firm] x% of respondents say y". Wellington Bay (talk) 17:08, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Are you fine with the proposed wording? --₪ MIESIANIACAL 21:32, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I haven't had time to look at all your sources - but I don't see the relevance of Boyce (2008) to polls taken in the 2020s. Applying Boyce to them is WP:SYNTH. Indeed, trying to make sweeping statements about the last 30 years appears to also be a WP:SYNTH violation. You also seem to be cherry picking Ashcroft. You pull out the quote "royal fortunes rise and fall" but ignore the main part of his statement "Older people tend to be more attached to the monarchy, so there is a view that as the generations pass, the connection between their country and the U.K. and its institutions will come to seem ever more remote". I don't think your summary is a fair representation of what the Post article actually says or even what Ashcroft says. I mean you are trying to mitigate the 2023 poll by referring to the Boyce and Ekos sources from decades earlier and trying to apply it to the most recent poll. Again, that's clearly SYNTH. This isn't supposed to be an argumentative essay but you appear to be approaching it as such. Wellington Bay (talk) 23:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

That's not a correct interpretation of WP:SYNTH. Regardless, why do you feel it's of service to readers to mention only polls from 2022 and 2023, when polls have been conducted since the 1970s, at least? --₪ MIESIANIACAL 23:23, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. You mention the Ashcroft poll (in passing), and then mitigate it with sources that are about much earlier polls. You follow Ashcroft with these statements: "The polls themselves have been accused of using "inconsistent and sometimes ambiguous wording"[3] and monarchists and republicans have objected to the way some questions are worded" as if these are statements about the 2023 poll, but in fact the statements are about polls that were taken decades earlier and of course, the sources do not actually refer to the 2023 poll because they predate it by decades. Taking old statements and treating them as if they apply to more recent events is clearly synthesis because it is you who are arguing that the 2023 poll using "ambiguous wording" etc, not the sources. Moreover, your proposed wording completely ignores the actual findings of the poll, namely: "54 per cent majority thinks Canada would vote to become a republic. A mere 18 per cent thinks Canada would vote to remain a constitutional monarchy. But asked how they would vote today (the poll of more than 2,000 Canadians was taken in February and March), and the republican impulse weakens. Twenty-three per cent would vote to keep the king, and 47 per cent would vote to abolish." Your proposed wording goes far further than "burying the lede" - it completely erases it. The fact that "Twenty-three per cent would vote to keep the king, and 47 per cent would vote to abolish" appears nowhere in your wording. Wellington Bay (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

You take issue with the word "majority" but I think you misread what the passage says. It doesn't say a majority of Canadians want to abolish the monarchy, it says "a majority of Canadians think there should be a referendum on the future of the monarchy" and indeed according to IPSOS "A majority (58%) of Canadians agree (20%/38% somewhat) that Justin Trudeau should hold a referendum on the future of the monarchy in Canada"[1] (58% 'is a majority). The rest of the section says "more Canadians favour becoming a republic than do retaining the monarchy" and this is also correct. It does not say a majority it says more Canadians favour becoming a republic than not. I don't see the point of your list above of what is not a majority since the passage does not state otherwise, it is very specific that the term majority applies to the proportion of Canadians who think there should be a referendum. Wellington Bay (talk) 02:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

The article should include the polls and I think it's useful to set them apart in a section of their own, otherwise they will be lost among the general text. I would certainly expect an article on a political movement to give some indication of how popular that movement is. Celia Homeford (talk) 10:00, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

This article defiantly needs a table or chart with polling data, having that info just in prose isn't great—blindlynx 22:47, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Include the latest polls, fwiw. Besides, the Supreme Court has already made it quite clear, that the monarchy in Canada can only be abolished, via approval from the federal Parliament & all ten provincial legislatures. GoodDay (talk) 20:35, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes. I think inclusion of reliable polling on whether Canadians support the maintenance of the monarchy or it abolition is appropriate, where properly balanced (with contradicting polls). Polling on whether Candians want a referendum on it seems inappropriate though because that is not a legal way to accomplish abolition, and focusing on a referendum suggests it is.-- Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 04:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

References