Talk:Magic: The Gathering

Archives

• Archive1 - November 2002 through December 2004
• Archive2 - January 2005 through April 2006
• Archive3 - August 2006 - February 2007

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Possible improvements.

I recently noticed that the MTG Wikiproject lists getting this article Featured as one of its goals. At one time I was in favor of this too, but I think that for now I personally am happy keeping the article at GA status. That said, if someone is willing to take a shot at getting this to FA status, a few likely comments that could hopefully be preempted before the peer review.

This article currently has 34 footnotes, but some of these are just footnotes and not really references. I would estimate that an article of this size would require around 50 in-line citations to be seriously considered for FA status (arbitrary? Yes, but take a look at some recent candidacies). Plus, and here's the big one, they'd almost certainly like to see more _printed_ publications cited. Yes, some are listed at the top of the Refs, but they aren't in-line cited and are closer to a "Further Reading" section. I know this since I was the one who went in and added most of the first set of cites in response to the threatened GA re-review above, and not owning any Magic books, I exclusively used the Internet. Citing something like the Magic encylcopedia directly, that Flores book (Deckade I think?), the book on Jon Finkel (see here), or even back-issues of the Duelist would probably go over well. They might even offer a few new factoids worthy of the article.

(Side comment: I'm a fan of the "extra information" footnotes so that new editors don't think we "forgot" some tiny exception to a general statement. A footnote allows us to place the information there to be seen without cluttering up the article or flow, so the non-reference footnotes have a place.)

It's possible that some people will complain about the Awards section being a list as opposed to prose. I have no problem with the list myself, but if someone can find some good, independent sales data and critiques, there might actually be promise to using prose instead, renaming the section to "Popular and critical reception" or the like.

Lastly, there are still a few comments that have cite requests still on them, and those would definitely need to be cited first. SnowFire 04:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Please Fix Picture

The top/first picture on the article isn't a picture of the back of a Magic card. Actual card backs don't have the TM next to the DECKMASTER text. Can someone replace that picture with an accurate one? 129.174.176.4 05:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

That appears to have been done, though I wonder why we choose to use such a low-quality image. The artifacts on it bother me. - Boss1000 05:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

If wanted I think I could find a better picture of a back of a card; as the artifacts are kind of annoying. AnimaMage 05:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

That one is from wizards.com anyway. Is that fair use? An individual photo from an Wikipedian would ensure it to be safe over this possibly questionable image, though, right? Why not use one? I might take one myself when I get time. - Boss1000 02:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

A photo wouldn't help at all. The artwork is what bears the copyright more so than the image itself. That will not be in the public domain until 2088 or so, assuming no further extensions of the copyright act. Otherwise, a guy with a video camera in the theatre would mysteriously have copyright claims on his video- which he does, but that doesn't obviate the movie producer's claims on what was actually taped. The case where the photo will work and be free of copyright is something like a picture of a person, a car, or a PlayStation. While the internals of the car & PlayStation may possibly be protected, the appearance is not (unlike Magic artwork), so there's a difference between a photo taken by Toyota/Sony and one taken by a random person. SnowFire 02:56, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

It looks like the image was just scaled up a bit. Someone changed it to the images native size, and it looks much better.—MJBurrage • TALK • 03:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Free Magic Software

I like the idea of making a list of software that lets you play Magic for free.

These clients play without the rules, against another person other Internet.
Apprentice - http://www.magic-league.com/download/apprentice.php
Magic Workstation - http://www.magicworkstation.com/downloads.php

This project you play against another person other the Internet WITH the rules
Magic-Project - http://sourceforge.net/projects/magic-project/

This project lets you play against the computer with the rules
MTG Forge - http://sourceforge.net/projects/mtgforge/

207.203.80.15 23:23, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The legality of such programs is dubious. I seem to recall Magic Workstation specially being banned from being mentioned in the official forums. Considering they let you play the game for free when there's an official method that requires payment, I really don't think they should be mentioned in the article at all.--SeizureDog 10:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about MWS being banned from mention in the official forums, but I do know this about Apprentice and MWS: Wizards has no problem with people using Apprentice (I believe at one point they were working with its makers...don't quote me on that, though), as it doesn't use any representation similar to actual card images. MWS has a basic frame to represent the cards, and uses the mana and tap symbols that Wizards has trademarked, in addition to the ability to use card images (though they don't come with the program itself). For these reasons (copyright and such), Wizards doesn't really like MWS. That said, haven't heard of any cease and desist letters being sent to MWS. --Temporarily Insane (talk) 03:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Although I'm not sure it'd be appreciated on the main page, I appreciate seeing it here as I previously had know knowledge of these programs. Stealthymatt 02:08, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

MWS does not use any trademarked wizards symbols. In mws, the tap symbol is a circle with a T and the mana symbols are letters in colored circles. MWS does not ship with any mtg cards installed either. There are downloadable plugins to get the mtg cards, and themes to use the actual trademarked symbols, and places to download the copyrighted card pictures but those are all created by 3rd parties. MWS is on firm legal ground and one of the reason it has not been shut down like some other free mtg software projects Laplie 18:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Langauges

The article currently says that Korean and Traditional Chinese stopped being printed after Urza’s Saga (October 1998), but I have seen Korean 7th Edition (April 2001) , and Trad. Chinese 8th Edition (April 2003) for sale from reputable dealers on e-Bay.

Wizards of the Coast’s website confirms that 9th Edition was not printed in either language but does not say for earlier sets. Does anyone know—and hopefully have a source for—the last sets actually printed in those two languages?

—MJBurrage • TALK • 13:20, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Images

Magic: The Gathering sets is currently nominated for Featured List status at Wikipedia:Featured_list_candidates#Magic:_The_Gathering_sets. Some users have raised objections to the images used on the Magic: The Gathering sets page. I don't believe those objections are valid; if the objections are valid, then I think they would also apply to the images used on the Magic: The Gathering article and render them unusable...could editors of this article familiar with image use policy contribute to the discussion about image status on the nomination page? —Lowellian (reply) 20:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Update: I am confident that the images are used appropriately, but some editors disagree, and one has written that "I will not retract the objection until all the images are removed". —Lowellian (reply) 18:44, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Notes and references

These should be split into separate sections, as they are quite large right now. Is there an easy way to do this with tags? --Temporarily Insane (talk) 00:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I was actually researching just that issue a week or so ago. It can be done via the older {{note}} and {{ref}} tags, but it'd be a massive pain, and doesn't cope well with comments that are both footnotes and citations. A shame. Wikipedia talk:Footnotes#Mixing footnotes and references has more on that issue. SnowFire 00:55, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The 6-Card Image

File:MagicCards.jpg

I think we should consider updating this image. All but one of the cards are from 9th edition, not one is old bordered, and there are no instants. Also, if you want to properly represent each color and MTG in general, I'd remember what MTG.com did with the timecapsule question. With that said, what if we used these: Worship (same), Counterspell or Boomerang (probably old), Terror (old), Fireball (same), Llanowar Elves (old), and Icy Manipulator (same)?

This way you get more expansion symbols, a feel for all card types, and a feel for all colors. Clone doesn't really do blue the justice one of its stable instants would, and while the spider shows green's inability to fly, its mana production really outdoes that. As for terror, isn't that what you think of when you think black?

Just a suggestion. If this has been discussed before, don't hate me, kay? - Boss1000 01:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that including a mix of new and old card faces is a good idea: it would give readers the impression that old and new card faces are intermixed, which simply isn't the case (except in Time Spiral, obviously). I feel that the Game Play section (where the image in question is found) should focus on the modern state of the game, with the new card face.

As to the specific cards shown, I like the current picture, but your suggestions seem fine too. My only issue with the cards you suggest is that there is only one creature, and it's a "utility" creature as opposed to a "combat" creature. Since creatures are the core of Magic (I can source this comment if you want me to, it's from WotC), I would like at least one "fatty" or combat creature to be shown. --Ashenai 08:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Updating the collage is fine, though I'd recommend proposing your ideas for card choices here first. However, I agree with Ashenai that they should all be modern cards from the core set and with the same frame. I'm not sure if now is the best time to think about updating it, since 10th edition will come out very soon and make 9th edition obsolete. Might be worthy of thinking about then, though.

Also, I don't see the benefit of standardizing on single spacing after a period. I don't want to get into the issue because it's a religious war, but double spacing after a sentence makes sentence detection much easier for readers looking at the edit box. And it doesn't matter at all, because HTML compresses all double spaces for the actual article. So no, there's no benefit to standardization as far as the actual article is concerned. SnowFire 21:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I know; I realized it didn't matter halfway through doing it, and I didn't want to stop. >_< I'm a double-spacer anyway, for the record.

I think it's only necessary to decide here before changing it. You're right about 10th edition, though; it can probably wait. You really don't think even one older card would be beneficial in the 6? I know we have the gambling one, but you're losing out on most of the history of the game here, unless you include one in the history section...? Anyway, yeah, let's wait. I agree that green should have a beefy creature, too. We'll see. - Boss1000 00:54, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

There are actually 4 cards in the article with older frames which should be fine. I also agree that if we are to change the six cards, lets do it once 10th is out :) --Mjrmtg 01:12, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

New Article?

Perhaps there should be an article for "The Colors of Magic"? I was just thinking that since the section is so long, we could shorten the gameplay section like wanted AND add more information on the colors, which I'm sure we could all do, by making it a separate article. - Boss1000 14:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

That's... a possibility, but I'd be skeptical. First off, one of the main reasons to split off an article is to "save space" in the main article (like with the Variant formats article). The colors of Magic are so fundamental to the game that I'd say pretty much all the current text needs to stay here. Now, it's possible that the colors of Magic deserve an article anyway that can go into more detail than the current one with added information... but I rather suspect it'd be a giant OR magnet, if the history of the colors section in this article is any guide. SnowFire 21:26, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Magic

What's our policy on italizing the word "Magic"? I don't know if WOTC has one persay, but they always seem to bold it when they say it. If that means italizing for us, shouldn't the article title be the same? I went through the article and italized lots of Magic's, but what's the deal on that? - Boss1000 14:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Magic is a game that isn't completely absorbed into culture a la hopscotch or chess; therefore, it uses italics, just like Axis & Allies or Metroid. See MoS:T for more; basically, it's a "work" rather than something so common to be closer to a thing, and helps distinguish the game from vanilla magic. Also, they do use italicized Magic officially. Bold is used for very specific purposes on WP, generally things like defining terms. Wikipedia:Manual of Style (text formatting) has more on that. SnowFire 21:26, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Patent section.

This isn't a huge deal, since as the main template says this topic is treated better somewhere else, but I don't think it's at all unwarranted to call the patent controversial, especially since it's a type of patent whose general existence at all has been controversial, ignoring anything specific to the WotC patent. It's not taking a stand on the issue; it's just recognizing that there have been some cases where it nearly got brought into court to see if it would hold up. Aldaron, you are correct that most patents are controversial, or at least most patents worth talking about... but so what? Most elements in chemistry are solids at room temperature and normal pressure, but articles on elements still mention this fact. SnowFire 03:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

It's a bit more like saying that the theory of evolution is "controversial" every time it is mentioned. Anyway, there's a separate article where this issue can be discussed, if it turns out to be a valid one. — Aldaron • T/C 04:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

This is mentioned exactly once in the article, and as it stands there's nothing indicating why this random fact is being brought up (not all patents are bad! Just saying "Wizards got granted a patent" should probably elicit a "So?"). Yes, there's a reference to another article - a short summary of that article is appropriate here. I agree that excessive detail would be bad, but we're talking one word with an explanatory sentence. Anyone else have any comment? I won't revert any more, but I still disagree here. SnowFire 17:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

If you want to include one word, perhaps "misunderstood" is better than "controversial". Much of the patent is pretty narrow (for example, to infringe claim 1 you would have to rotate game components on every turn; claim 2 is only infringed by playing a trading card game with a hand limit and card reorientation). The broad claim that gets people excited (claim 3) is perfectly valid and covers (playing) the central (and real) innovation of Magic: the trading card game (just cards, BTW; the author of the article you cite is confused on this point). (And even that claim has some surprising limitations, for example, who is the infringer? It looks like it's the player himself -- hardly a lucrative target for litigation -- and moreover a player who plays with others, all of whom "construc[t] a library of a predetermined number of cards by examining and selecting cards from the player's pool of cards". So someone playing with a pre-consturcted deck, or playing with anyone playing with a pre-constructed deck would not infringe.) In a vacuum, "controversial" might be an acceptable word, but in the current all-patents-are bad climate (esp. here on Wikipedia) its connotations are clear and inappropriate. This is a perfectly valid (though surprisingly narrow) patent that attempts to capture a legitimate invention. — Aldaron • T/C 20:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Reliability of Wizards.com

Please note that this subject is discussed at Reliability noticeboard.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

References in Popular Culture?

Shouldn't this article, as with many other articles related to fictional settings, have at least a summary of references in pop culture? I'm sure Magic has not run out of these things; it's been around a long time. I think it would be great if someone got to work on that, or at least there should be a link to a separate article mentioning these references. Mission imaginable 03:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

It seems really unlikely to me that there's enough non-trivial references to Magic out there. Sure, Magic is referenced within its own subculture and a few adjoining ones (pen & paper RPGs, for example), but it hasn't struck me as having a large impact elsewhere. We'd be stuck with "In episode 5.12 of Law & Order, some students in the cafeteria appear to be playing a card game similar to Magic." type references. SnowFire 15:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree, Although there is a large correlation between pen and paper gamiong and magic, magic is almost unheard of in the wider scheme of things. whenever I mention magic I get a blank stare, then when I explian it they're like "Is that based on pokemon?" despite the fact it far preceded it. anyways, I don't think its warranted. Avatar of Nothing 21:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)Avatar of Nothing

Some schools banned magic?

"For a few years, some schools banned Magic games altogether from being played on school grounds."

Some schools? I think I have a pretty good idea where thoose schools were located, if were to believe the statement, and I'm not sure that's a correct representation of the global market for this card game. If we were to say that 1/10 of 1% is "some" schools (and by school I presume any classical educational facility) in a country, then considering the staggering amounts of schools in the world, in countries were magic cards exist (not necissarily sold), that would be a shitload of "some" schools. A factual number would be ALOT better here, than the word some.

"6 US and 5 UK and 1 bla bla school banned... bla bla and so on"

Also, I for one would like a reference, to either confirm my creeping suspicion or, with a lack of reference, show that this was not a widespread global phenomenon. Since it's mentioned in relation to the demon theme it would be nice to have that in the reference too. The schools could have banned it, if they did, for any number of reasons. ANTE for one.

A google attempt or two gave me nothing anyway.

213.141.89.53 22:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Expansion set logo images

Readers and editors of this article might be interested in participating in the discussion on Talk:Magic: The Gathering sets regarding the use of images in the Magic: The Gathering sets article. —Lowellian (reply) 08:09, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Alpha vs. Beta Black Lotus

In the old archive #3 there's still my post about the current values of Alpha and Beta. Why was one of the image captions reverted back to 'Beta Black Lotus', even though I already gave thorough reasoning why Alpha is more expensive in the modern market? Why was a justified change reverted? Anyone can check http://www.magictraders.com/pricelists/current-magic and see that nowadays Alpha is most of the time far more expensive than Beta. I'll change the caption again, and in case someone reverts it back, please state why you think - despite all the evidence to the contrary - that Beta Lotus is more expensive than Alpha Lotus. Thank you. Matti Nuortio, Oulu, Finland 19:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Pure accident, probably. Feel free to change it back with my apologies, since I suspect that was my fault; every once in a while I check the difference between the version from a month or so ago, and revert some parts. That probably accidentally got caught up in that. Sorry. SnowFire 05:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)