Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive33: Difference between revisions
Closing archived conversations |
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{{Archive box|[[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/archive toc|Archive TOC]]}} |
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==[[Amadou Cisse]] (closed)== |
== [[Amadou Cisse]] (closed) == |
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==[[:Wayne-Allen-Geis]] (closed)== |
== [[:Wayne-Allen-Geis]] (closed) == |
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==[[Richard Stengel]] (closed)== |
== [[Richard Stengel]] (closed) == |
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==[[Diane Dodds]] (closed)== |
== [[Diane Dodds]] (closed) == |
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==[[:Cabo Wabo]] (closed)== |
== [[:Cabo Wabo]] (closed) == |
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==[[Tabitha Lupien]] (closed)== |
== [[Tabitha Lupien]] (closed) == |
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==[[JC Chasez]] (closed)== |
== [[JC Chasez]] (closed) == |
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==[[Ron Paul]] (closed)== |
== [[Ron Paul]] (closed) == |
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==[[Aron Tendler]] (closed)== |
== [[Aron Tendler]] (closed) == |
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==[[Reid Stowe]] (closed)== |
== [[Reid Stowe]] (closed) == |
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==[[Frances Lynn]] (closed)== |
== [[Frances Lynn]] (closed) == |
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==[[Robert J. Sawyer]] (closed)== |
== [[Robert J. Sawyer]] (closed) == |
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==[[Emily Sander]] (closed)== |
== [[Emily Sander]] (closed) == |
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==[[Supergrass]] (closed)== |
== [[Supergrass]] (closed) == |
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==[[2nd II None]], [[Hoo-Bangin' Records]], [[Crips]] and more (closed)== |
== [[2nd II None]], [[Hoo-Bangin' Records]], [[Crips]] and more (closed) == |
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==[[Evel Kneivel]] (Image) (closed)== |
== [[Evel Kneivel]] (Image) (closed) == |
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==[[Foxy Brown]] (closed)== |
== [[Foxy Brown]] (closed) == |
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==Commons (closed)== |
== Commons (closed) == |
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==[[Historical pederastic couples]] (closed)== |
== [[Historical pederastic couples]] (closed) == |
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| style="text-align:center;" | ''The above is an archived [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons|Biographies of living persons]] incident concerning the article above. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>'' |
| style="text-align:center;" | ''The above is an archived [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons|Biographies of living persons]] incident concerning the article above. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>'' |
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==Please delete my biography from the Wikipedia (closed)== |
== Please delete my biography from the Wikipedia (closed) == |
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==[[Frank LaGrotta]] (closed)== |
== [[Frank LaGrotta]] (closed) == |
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==Possible violations of BLP/Jimmy Johnson (American football coach (closed)== |
== Possible violations of BLP/Jimmy Johnson (American football coach (closed) == |
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==[[Saeb Erekat]] (closed)== |
== [[Saeb Erekat]] (closed) == |
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==[[Jón Þór Birgisson]] (closed)== |
== [[Jón Þór Birgisson]] (closed) == |
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A somewhat heated argument cum revert war about one word. Should this person be described as "gay" or "openly gay"? [[User:Haukurth|Haukur]] 00:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC) |
A somewhat heated argument cum revert war about one word. Should this person be described as "gay" or "openly gay"? [[User:Haukurth|Haukur]] 00:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| style="text-align:center;" | ''The above is an archived [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons|Biographies of living persons]] incident concerning the article above. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>'' |
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== [[Joseph Schlessinger]] == |
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There may be some BLP issues here. Subject is accused of sexual harassment and perjury and an edit war seems to be in progress between two users ("Truther truther" and "Letsnotlie") that both have made edits on Wikipedia exclusively to this article. No third person has edited this article, either. These two users accuse each other of being the protagonists in the sexual harassment case. (In edit summaries, there is no discussion at all on the talk page). I stumbled upon this by accident and don't know the subject, but somebody who knows about these kinds of things should urgently have a look at what is going on here. Thanks. --[[User:Crusio|Crusio]] ([[User talk:Crusio|talk]]) 08:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:This is fishy. I've deleted one image of an alleged court report as unverifiable original research violating BLP. But the whole section [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Schlessinger#Sexual_Harassment_Lawsuit here] needs checked and possibly removed. No time just now. Other clued eyes appreciated. And watchlist.-[[User talk:Doc glasgow|Doc]]<sup>g</sup> 20:43, 24 November 2007 (UTC) |
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::I'm unhappy with this also; most of the references are from blogs. Naturally, I have removed those, as blog references absolutely cannot be used in such a context. But there are still some reliable sources,including the Chronicle of Higher Education. Unfortunately a few f even these are cited only indirectly via blogs, but the original sources should be findable easily enough. I have not yet checked to see to what extent the quotes in the article are proven by the remaining sources. But I have doubts about using the quotes, rather than the news reports-- sourced or not--especially as the accusations were settled out of court, thus there will not be an actual court verdict to cite. If any uninvolved party concurs with me and removes them, I would certainly not object. |
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::Additionally, a paragraph about a patent case in which his testimony was involved contained selective quotations, although sourced reliably from the verdict. I adjusted them to more appropriate emphasis. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG|talk]]) 21:08, 24 November 2007 (UTC) I see Docg has just commented them out. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG|talk]]) 21:10, 24 November 2007 (UTC) |
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Users [[User:Truther truther|Truther truther]] and [[User:Letsnotlie|Letsnotlie]] are at it again, adding/deleting info on the sexual harassment and patent lawsuits. --[[User:Crusio|Crusio]] ([[User talk:Crusio|talk]]) 09:40, 30 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:I a,m taking this off my watch list. There have been 17 edits today, 8 by Letsnotlie and 7 by Truther truther. Not being an admin, there's not much I can do about this, but I hope somebody will put a stop to it. I think both of these editors should be blocked and the article overhauled by an experienced editor with an eye for BLP issues. Just my 2 cents. --[[User:Crusio|Crusio]] 00:03, 1 December 2007 (UTC) |
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:A new editor has popped up, [[User:Hillhealth|Hillhealth]], who reverts edits from Truther truther and may well be a sockpuppet of Letsnotlie. --[[User:Crusio|Crusio]] 19:57, 2 December 2007 (UTC) |
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::I've fully protected the page for a week and commented out the sexual harassment section because of the obvious [[WP:BLP|BLP]] concerns. Let's hope our little warriors use the opportunity to talk things out. — [[User:Coren|Coren]] <sup>[[User Talk:Coren|(talk)]]</sup> 22:51, 2 December 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Thanks Coren! Hope you'll also keep an eye on the Schlessinger talk page now.... Cheers, --[[User:Crusio|Crusio]] 09:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC) |
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== [[Mitt Romney]] (closed) == |
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! style="background-color: #ffd8a0;" | [[Mitt Romney]] – This noticeboard is *not* a dispute resolution forum – 03:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| style="text-align:center;" | ''The following is an archived [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons|Biographies of living persons]] incident concerning the article above <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>'' |
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== [[Mitt Romney ]] == |
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Below is Mitt Romney's Wikipedia biography. This section (biography) is the first thing you read about Mitt Romney (after the intro) on the site. Count, with me, the number of times his religion, religious practices, and polygamy are mentioned in his (biograph). |
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Biography |
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Born on March 12, 1947 in Detroit, Michigan, Mitt Romney is the son of former Michigan Governor and 1968 presidential candidate George W. Romney and 1970 U.S. Senate candidate Lenore Romney. His name "Willard" was after hotel magnate J. Willard Marriott, his father's best friend. Mitt, his middle name, comes from a relative who played football for the Chicago Bears. Romney married his high school girlfriend Ann Davies in 1968. Both are members of '''The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints''' (1), commonly known as Mormons (2), though Ann was raised '''Episcopalian''' (3). They have five married sons (Tagg, Matt, Josh, Ben and Craig) and eleven grandchildren. Romney's great-grandparents were '''polygamist''' (4) '''Mormons''' (5) who fled to Mexico in 1884 after the U.S. Supreme Court upheld various '''anti-polygamy''' (6) laws in 1879. Romney's father, George Romney, was born in Chihuahua, Mexico, and the family moved to the United States in 1912 after the outbreak of the Mexican Revolution. Romney is a former '''bishop''' (7) and '''stake president''' (8) in '''his church'''(9), and '''he attends a temple''' (10) regularly. As a '''devout Mormon''', (11) he '''does not drink''' (12) '''or smoke''' (13). He's also a proponent of family values, saying that he abstained from sex until marriage and has since remained faithful to his wife of 39 years. |
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There are 13 mentions of his religious practices, and polygamy in his "Biography". How many times do you think the articles about Rudy, McCain, Hillary, and Barak mention their religion? Take a wild guess. |
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Do you think this page is fair to Romney? Do they treat Romney the same as Rudy or Hillary? |
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I say no. |
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No other candidate has their religion mentioned 12 times! No other candidate has scandalous behavior of their grandparent's discussed! And it's not just the fact that these things are mentioned, but that they are mentioned at the top of the page, as the first (and most likely last things that people read about Romney, as most people just want the executive summary) thing in the page. The first thing on the page, should be, in my opinion, the things that get him onto wikipedia. According to that procedure, the most important thing about Romney is that he is Mormon. This happens in my life also, and I hate it. People I work with see my Resume, they see that I went to BYU, and they ask me how many wives I have... It gets really old... I don't see what it is about Romney, that makes polygamy important to discuss, let alone in the first paragraph after the into... If they want to create a separate "religion section" that is fine, but I don't get it. I am a Mormon. If I ever become famous will polygamy be discussed in my wikipedia article? |
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I don't mean to question the motives of those who are editing the page, but it seems to me that people are only going to discuss polygamy with regard to Romney (as apposed to other famous Mormons who don't have polygamy discussed in their wikipedia articles) because he is a politician and some people don't want to see him elected... I do want him to be elected, but I don't want his article to be pro-Romney, I just want him to be treated fairly... |
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I don't think Romney's pre-marital sex life should be mentioned in the firs section after the into. I do not think polygamy should be mentioned there either... |
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I have tried to change it, but this guy keeps changing it back... I want to formally request arbitration... |
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He keeps saying that a lot of people discuss Romney's religion, so we should put it in their. I say that a lot of people look at porn, but that doesn't mean we should give it to them... wikipedia is supposed to treat people fairly, and professionally. [[User:Myclob|myclob]] 00:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC) |
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: I see your point. Be [[WP:BOLD]] and fix these issues. If you get reverted, take it to talk and present your arguments as eloquently as you have presented it here. If no consensus can be found, pursue [[WP:DR|dispute resolution]]. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 00:12, 1 December 2007 (UTC) |
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:: Not very many people seem to be responding... I've tried many times to discuss it, and no consensus has been reached... I really want arbitration...[[User:Myclob|myclob]] 00:31, 1 December 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Sorry, there is no content arbitration in wikipedia.--[[User talk:Doc glasgow|Doc]]<sup>g</sup> 00:40, 1 December 2007 (UTC) |
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::::You say to be bold, so I tried changing it one more time, but I know it will be changed back, with no arguments on the discussion page....[[User:Myclob|myclob]] 00:43, 1 December 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::Please look at [[WP:DR|dispute resolution]] there's nothing here we can help with.--[[User talk:Doc glasgow|Doc]]<sup>g</sup> 01:58, 1 December 2007 (UTC) |
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[undent] Unfortunately, this is a complete distortion of what has been going on on [[Talk:Mitt Romney]] as well as a distortion of the actual article. There has been a great deal of discussion about this matter - Myclob's concerns have been replied to repeatedly - but he has just continued to say the same thing over and over again without responding to changes that have been made to try to accommodate him. I am afraid that his objections are very subjective - he says several times that he has experienced difficulties regarding his religion that this is similar to, and he has a strong POV about it - and while I am sorry for any discomfort he feels, that is not at all the intent of the way the article is written, nor is it a realistic complaint about it. Romney's religion, and his family background, are cited and discussed in numerous reliable sources, and they are included in the article because they are an issue that is commented on a great deal. Being bold is great, but ignoring what the other editors of the article have said on Talk is not ok. <strong>[[User:Tvoz|Tvoz]] </strong>|<small>[[User talk:Tvoz|talk]]</small> 02:48, 1 December 2007 (UTC) |
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I did not "distort what was going on". I wrote exactly what [[User:Tvoz|Tvoz]] keeps reverting the article back to... It is not a " distortion of the actual article" of the article, I re-wrote the article exactly as it reads, and you can go read it yoursef... it says "Early life and family background" and all it talks about is his religion... "This has not been "greatly discussed" in the article... and "my concerns have been replied to repeatedly" How can it be fair to have the first part of Mitt Romney's article (after the intodduction) say that it is going to be talking about his "Early life and family background" but have 13 mentions of poligamy and his religion? Yes, Tvoz, keeps repeating that people like to talk about his religion, but he has not responded to any questions, as to why it should be kept in it's present state, what is wrong with moving the religion stuff out of the "Early life and family background" section, or to the argument that just because people like to do stuff that is unfair, doesn't mean wikipedia does... People ask how many wifes I have, when they see on my Resume that I went to BYU... People are doing the same thing to Mitt Romney, and Tvoz is the only person on the discussion page that thinks that this is fair, but apparently he has enough time to keep changing it back... Go to the discusion page.. there is not a concensus, but he keeps changing it back to the way he likes it with 13 mentions of Romney's religion within the "Early life and family background" section, which seems so rediculous to me that it just drives me crazy.[[User:Myclob|myclob]] 14:43, 1 December 2007 (UTC) In fact if you look at the discussion page you will see that I, myclob, coolhandluke, and Raymondwinn all think it should change...[[User:Myclob|myclob]] 15:28, 1 December 2007 (UTC) |
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: There is a useful discussion about how to improve the Mitt Romney article. However, some editors have been trying to delete the information about Romney's family history with polygamy. The information is both true and has been discussed repeatedly by Romney and throughout the mainstream media from Fox News leftward. A partial list of stories include: |
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# [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,254362,00.html Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romney's Family Tree] from Fox News, Feb 24, 2007 |
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# [http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0509.sullivan1.html Mitt Romney's Evangelical Problem] The Washington Monthly, September 2005 |
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# [http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1718609,00.html The march of the Mormons] The Guardian, Feb 27, 2006. The article says "...Mitt Romney's father, George, an automobile executive and a three-term Republican governor of Missouri who was born in a polygamous Mormon community in Mexico." |
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# [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/24/ap/politics/mainD8NG82J01.shtml Romney Family Tree Has Polygamy Branch - White House candidate Mitt Romney condemns polygamy, but his great-grandfather had 5 wives] CBS News, Feb 24, 2007 |
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# [http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=2901419 Romney Family Tree Has Polygamy Branch] ABC News, Feb 24, 2007 |
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# [http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/specials/romney/part2/ The Making of Mitt Romney] Boston Globe, June 25, 2007 |
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# [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzBDtXaUk3Q Mitt Romney on 60 Minutes with Mike Wallace - Mormonism] 60 Minutes interview on YouTube. |
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It would be helpful if some experienced editors who don't have a personal stake in this article could weigh in about the standards for including this kind of fact on a Wikipedia bio page. [[User:Notmyrealname|Notmyrealname]] 03:05, 2 December 2007 (UTC) |
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:A simple question: How does something that is generationaly removed from the individual affect the readers understanding of that individual or how it has bearing upon who he is? If you can answer that in such a manner as to indicate that the inclusion is worthwhile, then go for it, otherwise, leave it out. I do not see how it is pertinent to understanding the individual and it is controversial, so why would we include it? [[User:Brimba|Brimba]] 03:30, 2 December 2007 (UTC) |
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::Another editor recently pointed out at the talk page that "Romney is also descended from [[Rebecca Nurse]], who was hanged for witchcraft in 1692 after the Salem witch trials, and of [[Anne Marbury Hutchinson]], religious reformer, heretic and a founder of Rhode Island." Interesting point, no?[[User:Ferrylodge|Ferrylodge]] 03:42, 2 December 2007 (UTC) |
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::It is, but unlike the above, hardly controversial and no more worth covering within a one page bio than the above. [[User:Brimba|Brimba]] 04:00, 2 December 2007 (UTC) |
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:::That's an unsourced red herring. The answer to the simple question is that editors at every major news outlet in the US and many abroad have determined that it is relevant. That's more than Wikipedia requires. [[User:Notmyrealname|Notmyrealname]] 03:52, 2 December 2007 (UTC) |
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::::I don't have a stake in this, but this whole issue is undue weight. The focus on his great-grandparents and practices which were common (from my understanding) within the Mormon religion at the time are irrelevant in today's world. Romney has denounced the practice of Polygamy, but to ascribe some connection to his past is purely an attack on both him and his religion. I think people should look at it for what it is, and that is a partisan attack on him personally. Those claiming RS and notability can hide behind that wall as much as they want, but it is clear the motivation is to associate Romney with a practice he has denouced numerous times. [[User:Arzel|Arzel]] 04:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::I guess it's time for one of those [[WP:AGF]] reminders. Fox News, the Wall Street Journal, The National Review, and other conservative media outlets have all covered the issue. It is frequently mentioned in all major media outlets as an issue that may affect voter perception of his campaign. He has discussed it on national television. Reliable sources and notability are the gold standards of BLP pages, not something that you hide behind. To NOT include something on his bio page, in a factual and neutral manner, that has been widely discussed in the national and international media would be biased. [[WP:BLP]] policy is very clear about including information that might be perceived as embarrassing. If it is notable and properly sourced, it should be included. [[User:Notmyrealname|Notmyrealname]] 04:37, 2 December 2007 (UTC) |
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::::::If it's been covered by the media "as an issue that may affect voter perception of his campaign" then why shouldn't it go in the campaign section of the Wikipedia article? And why does it require anything more than a sentence like this, with appropriate footnotes: "Some of Romney’s ancestors were polygamists, which is a practice that he has denounced"? I also want to point out that many presidents [http://members.aol.com/calebj/presidents.html have ancestors who were aboard the Mayflower], but that doesn't mean Wikipedia biographies should give every detail, regardless of what the mass media says.[[User:Ferrylodge|Ferrylodge]] 05:01, 2 December 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::::Right. It's a campaign issue, along with his religion in general. It should be covered as such, because that's how reliable sources indicate it's notable. [[User:Cool Hand Luke|Cool Hand]] ''[[User talk:Cool Hand Luke|Luke]]'' 17:09, 2 December 2007 (UTC) |
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::::::::I'm not so sure. The family's practice of polygamy led to him having a lot more family members (see the Globe article I cited at earlier that interviews many of his other family members). Also, his father was born in Mexico. That is a pretty interesting family fact, again, directly the result of his grandparents fleeing the US to continue practicing polygamy. [[User:Notmyrealname|Notmyrealname]] 17:35, 2 December 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Mitt Romney has three siblings, which doesn't seem like a huge number, and they're all listed right up front in the Mitt Romney Wikipedia article — no one is objecting to that. Mitt Romney's mother was born in Utah, directly the result of Mormons fleeing persecution in the Midwest; her family appears to have been completely monogamous rather than polygamous, but no one is suggesting to put that fact in the Mitt Romney Wikipedia article. Likewise, no one is seriously suggesting to put Romney's ancestor [[Rebecca Nurse]] in the Mitt Romney Wikipedia article. So, putting the polygamous behavior of his paternal great-grandparents into the article would be kind of unusual. I would have no objection to a couple sentences in the campaign section of the Mitt Romney article, like this: "Romney's paternal great-grandparents emigrated to Mexico to avoid polygamy laws in the United States, and this fact has been reported by some media outlets as a factor that may affect voter perception of his campaign. Mitt Romney has denounced the practice of polygamy, and is a proponent of traditional marriage." This can be footnoted, so that interested readers can learn more if they want to. Sound okay?[[User:Ferrylodge|Ferrylodge]] 18:00, 2 December 2007 (UTC) |
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FYI, we are back to square one. Th editor named Turtlescrubber has come along and made [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Mitt_Romney&diff=175630412&oldid=175622605 this edit] reverting a version of the article that had been discussed at length here and at the Mitt Romney talk page. The article is now back to square one, and I must say that this is apparently an attempt to emphasize as strongly as possible that Romney is from a family of POLYGAMIST MORMONS. In my view, it's very offsensive. In addition, the version that Tutlescrubber has installed conatins blatant falsehoods. For example, it includes the following footnote: "[http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/02/24/romney_family_tree_has_polygamy_branch Romney's family tree has polygamous roots] ''Associated Press,'' [[February 24]][[2007]]." That is '''''not''''' the title of the Associated Press article, as I have repeatedly stated to Tutlescrubber. <s>Additionally, he insists on the statement that "Romney's paternal great-grandparents were polygamist Mormons who moved to Mexico in 1884." Again, this is highly misleading, if not completely false; there is no documented polygamy on Romney's mother's side of the family.</s> Frankly, I don't know what to do now. '''''HELP!'''''[[User:Ferrylodge|Ferrylodge]] 03:03, 4 December 2007 (UTC) |
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:First of all, stop forum shopping. Second, you could stop running off and actually discuss compromise edits. I guess it's your way or the highway right. We are having a conversation, I go to work, and boom, there is "compromise" that I was unaware snuck into a formerly protected article. I don't think that we are that far away from reaching a compromise but I don't like to see the rules circumvented like that. I am open to discussion but do not like the way things are being handled on this page. One editor has already been driven off by a few of the footsoldiers on this page. I also don't like the crossposting on page looking for more "help", i.e. additional footsoldiers. Ferry is basically saying that I am an anti-mormon bigot, which he would find very funny if he knew anything about me. Which he doesn't. So he should really assume good faith and keep his petty accusations under his hat. [[User:Turtlescrubber|Turtlescrubber]] 03:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC) |
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::I didn;t start this thread, so I don't understand how I could be forum shopping.[[User:Ferrylodge|Ferrylodge]] 03:54, 4 December 2007 (UTC) |
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::And I don't think you're an anti-Mormon bigot, Turtlescrubber. I think you're someone who wants to display as prominently as possible that Romney is from a family of POLYGAMOUS MORMONS.[[User:Ferrylodge|Ferrylodge]] 03:56, 4 December 2007 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 06:36, 19 December 2007
 | This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current main page. |
Amadou Cisse (closed)
| Amadou Cisse – Resolved. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
 ResolvedThere is a politician named Amadou Cisse, but I think there should be a separate page for the 29 year old University of Chicago graduate student of the same name, who was shot and killed in an apparent robbery near campus on November 19. There has been a lot of coverage of the shooting in the Chicago press, but I am not sure how to add a new article that shares a name with an existing article. This is a link to one story about it: [[1]] Haglundt (talk) 22:04, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Wayne-Allen-Geis (closed)
| Wayne-Allen-Geis – Article deleted. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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Resolved Article looks like a speedy to me, but they've hung a hang-on on it. Whole darned thing looks like one massive BLP violation. --Orange Mike | Talk 22:36, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Richard Stengel (closed)
| Richard Stengel – Cleaned and semiprotected. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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Resolved Atrios is trying to make a point at Richard Stengel. Could someone check this out? I need to leave now. Haukur (talk) 08:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Diane Dodds (closed)
| Diane Dodds – Cleaned and semi-protected. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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Resolved The following Information is most incorrect and needs to be removed immediately "Diane Dodds, (nee Al-Khaibari) is a Councillor in West Belfast for the Democratic Unionist Party. She was born in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. At the age of four she fled to Northern Ireland with her mother, after her mother was accused of adultery in her homeland. Her mother became impressed with Ian Paisley's conservative rhetoric and converted to the Free Presbyterian faith soon after their arrival." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.50.134 (talk) 11:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Cabo Wabo (closed)
| Cabo Wabo – Conversation dormant. Please relist for ongoing concerns. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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A single purpose editor has now added the same contentious claim four times [2] [3] [4] [5] in less than 24 hours on the Cabo Wabo article (why is it always in such unlikely places) that a certain Noel E. Vestri designed the company logo for an MTV contest. This comes despite my edit summaries [6] [7] [8] and warning [9] urging the user not to do so. The material seems innocuous enough but on further investigation it is not. A little investigation reveals that Vestri appears to be a real graphic designer [10], who claimed on a blog that he designed the logo and that Sammy Hagar and his former Van Halen band members "screwed" him in some way over the logo design.[11]/] However, the information is unsourced in the article, and I could find no reliable source anywhere on the web that established either fact. In fact, I cannot even tell for sure what the dispute is all about. Presumably he didn't get paid properly or the logo was used for some purpose other than it was commissioned for. That happens all the time if you're a graphic designer and it is a sore point. It is very suspicious that an IP account editor who has made no other contributions to the encyclopedia is edit warring over the same obscure, contentious fact. This is not the kind of thing one would know or discover randomly on the Web. I surmise that the editor is somehow connected to the events, or otherwise has an axe to grind (sorry, pun). Anyway, I would appreciate if someone could take a look and consider either semi-protecting the article (it has been more than six months since any IP editor contributed a useful edit) or a short term block of the user for 3RR and BLP. I am at 3RR myself on this and don't want to step over the line even if BLP sort of says I can. Thanks, Wikidemo (talk) 17:59, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Tabitha Lupien (closed)
| Tabitha Lupien – Resolved. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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Canadianactress and dancer, Tabitha Lupien, has a Wikipedia article. However, in the introductory paragraph there is a sentance stating that she was born in 1990 (makinger her 17 years old). However, she is actually 19 and was born in 1988. You cannot edit the introduction, but that is the wrong information and needs to be changed! 24.36.202.63 (talk) 18:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay, thank-you! Actually I do have a source that states her birth year. her myspace page (open to the public) says that she is 19 years old as of this summer, making her birth year 1988, I've also met her.24.36.202.63 (talk) 19:11, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay, well, thank-you! I've found websites that say both birth years, so I won't post anything just in case. Thanks for everything!! 24.36.202.63 (talk) 19:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
JC Chasez (closed)
| JC Chasez – Editor warned. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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I'm concerned about the future of this article. It seems that User:Jcfanatic is constantly removing sourced information about Chasez's adoption. I'm not sure if this person is actually related to Chasez or is just a diehard fan, but the statement is well-referenced by an article in which Chasez himself states that he is adopted. I've tried contacting the user several times, but the user does not seem to ever look at their talk page. Is there any way we can stop this user from removing important, factual information from this article? --MgCupcake (talk) 02:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Ron Paul (closed)
| Ron Paul – Conversation dormant. Please relist for ongoing concerns. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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User:Vidor introduced into Ron Paul the statement that "Paul wrote" certain racist statements which Paul claims were written by someone else. When I reverted, Vidor made this same charge twice more on the Talk page. Believing that WP:BLP trumps WP:TALK, I added "alleged" the first time, deleted the claim from Vidor's comments (4 times) the second time, and gave Vidor a level-3 BLP warning (3 violations). OrangeMike, a helpful editor, restored Vidor's original (apparently violative) comments, but accepted my argument and let me remove them again. Now User:68.162.80.156 has appeared and restored Vidor's comments again twice, for which I gave the IP a level-2 and level-4 warning (it is clear the IP is familiar with me and the Paul page because it alludes to my outing sockpuppets of James Salsman). Still believing that WP:BLP trumps WP:TALK, I will proceed to delete Vidor's comments again. If the IP restores these comments, I believe it is ripe for block on that count. I believe its latest comments also make it ripe for temporary block as an obvious sockpuppet ("I'm editing from an IP because I feel like it and because Wikipedia policy permits me to do so"; no valid reason stated for the account's use by a clearly experienced editor; account used only for racism controversies). I would appreciate it if someone would (1) let me know if my interpretation of WP:BLP is correct; (2) see if checkuser can tie this account to another; (3) block the IP and/or main account if warranted. This narrative can be verified by consulting the IP's contributions and the Talk:Ron Paul history. John J. Bulten 22:35, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Aron Tendler (closed)
| Aron Tendler – Article deleted. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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Article about a Rabbi who has been accused of sexual impropriety. He has not been charged or convicted, there are just rumors reported in the press. This seems an obvious BLP violation to me, but perhaps I am misreading the situation. Another set of eyes would be appreciated. It is currently up for deletion, and I expressed my concerns there; nobody listened, and I think it will be kept. I would thus like it to meet Wikipedia guidelines for BLP. Thanks, Jeffpw (talk) 21:43, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I think the key word here is "rumors" - we should be very reluctant to include such material in biographies of living people. The accusations have not been widely reported and nothing seems to have been proved against this person. Therefore, per WP:BLP, I do not think the material its present state is appropriate and I have removed it. I suggest talkpage discussion to agree an appropriate level of sourcing for the accusations if they are to be reported. My instinct however is that these should be left out until those rumors are confirmed to be true. WjBscribe 23:25, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
The sources are "Tendler Resigns Under Cloud, Amy Klein, Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles, March 7, 2006", the second one is "Rabbi Expelled From Shul, JEANE MacINTOSH and DAVID HAFETZ, New York Post, March 1, 2006" and the third pertinent one is "Rabbi Tendler Suspended From Monsey Synagogue, Jewish Week (NY), March 1, 2006" Perfect sourcing. Lobojo (talk) 00:23, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
(Unindent) And the user is now readding the disputed content, and engaging in personal attacks on the discussion page. <sigh> Jeffpw (talk) 15:05, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
BTW, neither Aron nor Mordecai Tendler have been charged with any crimes. They were forced to quit their posts by colleagues and congregants who require a high and irreproachable standard. It is certainly not the job of Wikipedia to act as a (kangaroo) court of law nor is Wikipedia a sex offender registry of any kind. Until such time that a charge is brought, or an allegation is proven in a formal court of law, then any aspersions cast against anyone is a violation of WP:LIBEL and I would not be surprised if the offended parties would get angry enough to sue, but evidently some editors and admins do not realize this, so they allow yellow journalism and muckraking to exist and pretend that it's a legitimate "biography" when it is not. Reports in newspapers are not much more than hearsay when it comes to such legal situations, so everyone concerned needs to be very cautious before creating more of these articles which are nothing more than ticking time bombs waiting to go off. IZAK (talk) 11:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Reid Stowe (closed)
| Reid Stowe – Resolved. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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Wikipedia can be exposed to libel through talk page histories, no? If so, I think this is a case of that. Gory details: On September 27, this article was visited by 74.0.20.180 who inserted this material: After eight hours and change, and eighteen versions through edits by eight anonymous editors, the article reached this state: When a new anonymous editor, 96.232.22.251 deleted the malicious material, drawing the attention of recent change patroller, ArielGold. This editor was involved in dealing with a number of questionable edits by anonymous and registered participants over the next few hours; she then requested page protection, which administrator Alison granted. Immediate case closed. However, it occured to me (belatedly, this morning) that this pretty libelous stuff is still visible in the edit histories. Should it not be blocked even there? There are two issues, libel against Reid Stowe, and statements being, possibly falsely, attributed to Suzanne Bowling. Please review, and accept my apologies for not reporting it sooner; In case it matters, I'm a frequent contributor to this article, and often find myself being a policy wonk on the talk pages. Gosgood (talk) 16:33, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Frances Lynn (closed)
| Frances Lynn – Conversation dormant. Please relist for ongoing concerns. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Robert J. Sawyer (closed)
| Robert J. Sawyer – Conversation dormant. Please relist for ongoing concerns. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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The bio post on Robert J. Sawyer is well written, but reads like a press release from his agent.— Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Emily Sander (closed)
| Emily Sander – Conversation dormant. Please relist for ongoing concerns. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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Emily Sander (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) There is some reverting going back and forth about what is, and what isn't acceptable under BLP policy. A (few) extra set of experienced eye(s) wouldn't hurt the matter. Martijn Hoekstra 15:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Recently dead people are covered under BLP. This has always been true, and in addition Template:Recent death (since Phil's edit on November 15th, just clarified by me) sends people here. Chick Bowen 22:47, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Supergrass (closed)
| Supergrass – Conversation dormant. Please relist for ongoing concerns. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
2nd II None, Hoo-Bangin' Records, Crips and more (closed)
| 2nd II None, Hoo-Bangin' Records, Crips and more – Editor's behavior addressed. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
Just by reading the user's talk page, it can be seen he does not care about the guidelines, policies and warnings that I and other users gave him. I also have warned him over the edit summary and seems that he doesn't care or just ignore me.
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Evel Kneivel (Image) (closed)
| Evel Kneivel (Image) – Cleaned. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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Please read the description of the Image:At Home With Evel Knievel.jpg SagredoDiscussione? 00:49, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Foxy Brown (closed)
| Foxy Brown – Conversation dormant. Please relist for ongoing concerns. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Commons (closed)
| Commons – Conversation dormant. Please relist for ongoing concerns. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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I raised a BLP concern on Commons at Commons:C:VP#Drunks. I seem to have been roundly ignored. Someone else may wish to take up the fight, preferably before we find ourselves with a lawsuit. - Jmabel | Talk 07:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Historical pederastic couples (closed)
| Historical pederastic couples – Conversation dormant. Please relist for ongoing concerns. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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Historical pederastic couples went through some heated, multi-editor, multi-admin turmoil last month. At the end of the 20th and 21st centuries section, look: There are now several unsourced claims of pederastic relationships with children whose first and last names and sometimes their picture is given. These children are almost certain to still be alive. Why does User:Haiduc insist on including such BLP violations? I'm not touching it because I saw what happened last time. I hope someone with more BLP experience will please trim the contemporary listings. 209.17.131.233 15:15, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I copied this back from the archives, as the article is still filled with boys who could easily still be alive. 85.140.206.170 14:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Evel Knievel (closed)
| Evel Knievel – Report mentioned blatant vandalism, which has since been reverted by someone else. Incidents like this should go to WP:AIV in the future. – 23:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC) |
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There is a large penis photo that scrolls as I scroll! Would someone get rid of the large penis photo? I can't read the article. |
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Please delete my biography from the Wikipedia (closed)
| Please delete my biography from the Wikipedia – Conversation dormant. Please relist for ongoing concerns. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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Because of repeated vandalism that I have been prevented from correcting, my biography is continutally inaccurate and significantly misrepresents both me and my work. Therefore, I hereby request that my biography be deleted from the Wikipedia. Sincerely, Carl Hewitt —Preceding unsigned comment added by MonaKea (talk • contribs) 22:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
The Wikipedia harassment of Professor Hewitt has to stopThe Wikipedia should be ashamed of itself for harassing Professor Hewitt. Arthur Rubin took away his category as an American Logician. Then Ruud Koot deliberately insulted Professor Hewitt by taking away his Emeritus title and he changed the title of Hewitt's "Seminars, Publications, and Academic Biography" to "blog", which is (deliberately?) misleading. Also Ruud has been censoring those who attempted to protest his antics. First they called it the "Great Firewall of Ruud." But recently I have heard it referred to as "Ruud's Musharraf Strategy." The Wikipedia harassment of Professor Hewitt has to stop.--LittleSur 23:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC) The article on Professor Hewitt is still being censored and the harassment has continued. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.66.33.196 (talk) 23:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC) The article on Professor Hewitt is still being censored and the harassment has continued.--WestNahant (talk) 03:55, 22 November 2007 (UTC) Ruud has continued the abuse, which is reminiscent of an incident in the history of the Great Soviet Encyclopedia.--208.54.15.157 (talk) 22:53, 25 November 2007 (UTC) The Great Purge has begun! See
and Ruud Koot’s latest edits to
--63.249.108.250 01:47, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Frank LaGrotta (closed)
| Frank LaGrotta – Conversation dormant. Please relist for ongoing concerns – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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The article of Frank LaGrotta mentions criminal charges, but the only reference given is an article in the "Beaver County Times". I have done a Google search and find several references to this event, but most are on blogs and such and I don't know the journals that come up. Perhaps someone who knows more about this kind of things could have a look at this article to see whether this accusation is properly phrased and referenced. thanks! --Crusio (talk) 10:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
[removing indent] Yes, I created the article after seeing the newspaper report. However, I don't create articles on every alleged criminal that's in the newspaper; it's only because I knew that he was notable, being a state legislator. In short: the newspaper article alerted me to his very existence and provided enough biographical information (see the intro and the first main section) to have an article and prove notability by WP:BIO for politicians. Nyttend 23:34, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Nyttend: Such a stub definitively suffers from WP:UNDUE when that material is there, in particular as it has not been yet decided that the person is guilty of anything, the source is only about an arraignment. Wait until the case is closed, and then we can report whatever needs to be reported. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:31, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Possible violations of BLP/Jimmy Johnson (American football coach (closed)
| Possible violations of BLP/Jimmy Johnson (American football coach – Scoured. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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I don't know enough about this subject but all sorts of statements are being made about the article's subject with no reference sources. I believe Jimmy Johnson is still living. Mattisse 15:16, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Saeb Erekat (closed)
| Saeb Erekat – Conversation dormant. Please relist for ongoing concerns. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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One user is determined to add "controversies" or "criticisms" to this page in a manner which overwhelms the article and appears to side with the critics. The edits invariably begin with a small amount of factual information, then inject a large amount of commentary from Israeli partisans. (The subject is a prominent Palestinian politician & negotiator.) None of the sources provided are actually about Saeb Erekat specifically, rather, they are news or editorial pieces which simply mention him - thus, I find it difficult to understand the relevance to Erekat's notability as a whole. It's a little like adding all of the controversies of the first Bush administration to our biography of Ari Fleischer. What's worse, recently the same user has decided to add an additional "controversy" section consisting of one news article which mentions Erekat passingly in the context of quoting the official P.A. position, two editorials from the American Jewish community which (surprise) condemn him, and one blog posting by a Campus Watch - approved Israeli. In other words, it's looking more and more like a smear job. <eleland/talkedits> 18:05, 2 December 2007 (UTC) |
| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
Jón Þór Birgisson (closed)
| Jón Þór Birgisson – Conversation dormant. Please relist for ongoing concerns. – 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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A somewhat heated argument cum revert war about one word. Should this person be described as "gay" or "openly gay"? Haukur 00:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC) |
| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |
There may be some BLP issues here. Subject is accused of sexual harassment and perjury and an edit war seems to be in progress between two users ("Truther truther" and "Letsnotlie") that both have made edits on Wikipedia exclusively to this article. No third person has edited this article, either. These two users accuse each other of being the protagonists in the sexual harassment case. (In edit summaries, there is no discussion at all on the talk page). I stumbled upon this by accident and don't know the subject, but somebody who knows about these kinds of things should urgently have a look at what is going on here. Thanks. --Crusio (talk) 08:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
- This is fishy. I've deleted one image of an alleged court report as unverifiable original research violating BLP. But the whole section here needs checked and possibly removed. No time just now. Other clued eyes appreciated. And watchlist.-Docg 20:43, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'm unhappy with this also; most of the references are from blogs. Naturally, I have removed those, as blog references absolutely cannot be used in such a context. But there are still some reliable sources,including the Chronicle of Higher Education. Unfortunately a few f even these are cited only indirectly via blogs, but the original sources should be findable easily enough. I have not yet checked to see to what extent the quotes in the article are proven by the remaining sources. But I have doubts about using the quotes, rather than the news reports-- sourced or not--especially as the accusations were settled out of court, thus there will not be an actual court verdict to cite. If any uninvolved party concurs with me and removes them, I would certainly not object.
- Additionally, a paragraph about a patent case in which his testimony was involved contained selective quotations, although sourced reliably from the verdict. I adjusted them to more appropriate emphasis. DGG (talk) 21:08, 24 November 2007 (UTC) I see Docg has just commented them out. DGG (talk) 21:10, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Users Truther truther and Letsnotlie are at it again, adding/deleting info on the sexual harassment and patent lawsuits. --Crusio (talk) 09:40, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- I a,m taking this off my watch list. There have been 17 edits today, 8 by Letsnotlie and 7 by Truther truther. Not being an admin, there's not much I can do about this, but I hope somebody will put a stop to it. I think both of these editors should be blocked and the article overhauled by an experienced editor with an eye for BLP issues. Just my 2 cents. --Crusio 00:03, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
- A new editor has popped up, Hillhealth, who reverts edits from Truther truther and may well be a sockpuppet of Letsnotlie. --Crusio 19:57, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
- I've fully protected the page for a week and commented out the sexual harassment section because of the obvious BLP concerns. Let's hope our little warriors use the opportunity to talk things out. — Coren (talk) 22:51, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks Coren! Hope you'll also keep an eye on the Schlessinger talk page now.... Cheers, --Crusio 09:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
- I've fully protected the page for a week and commented out the sexual harassment section because of the obvious BLP concerns. Let's hope our little warriors use the opportunity to talk things out. — Coren (talk) 22:51, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Mitt Romney (closed)
| Mitt Romney – This noticeboard is *not* a dispute resolution forum – 03:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC) |
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| The following is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above Please do not modify it. |
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Below is Mitt Romney's Wikipedia biography. This section (biography) is the first thing you read about Mitt Romney (after the intro) on the site. Count, with me, the number of times his religion, religious practices, and polygamy are mentioned in his (biograph). Biography Born on March 12, 1947 in Detroit, Michigan, Mitt Romney is the son of former Michigan Governor and 1968 presidential candidate George W. Romney and 1970 U.S. Senate candidate Lenore Romney. His name "Willard" was after hotel magnate J. Willard Marriott, his father's best friend. Mitt, his middle name, comes from a relative who played football for the Chicago Bears. Romney married his high school girlfriend Ann Davies in 1968. Both are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (1), commonly known as Mormons (2), though Ann was raised Episcopalian (3). They have five married sons (Tagg, Matt, Josh, Ben and Craig) and eleven grandchildren. Romney's great-grandparents were polygamist (4) Mormons (5) who fled to Mexico in 1884 after the U.S. Supreme Court upheld various anti-polygamy (6) laws in 1879. Romney's father, George Romney, was born in Chihuahua, Mexico, and the family moved to the United States in 1912 after the outbreak of the Mexican Revolution. Romney is a former bishop (7) and stake president (8) in his church(9), and he attends a temple (10) regularly. As a devout Mormon, (11) he does not drink (12) or smoke (13). He's also a proponent of family values, saying that he abstained from sex until marriage and has since remained faithful to his wife of 39 years. There are 13 mentions of his religious practices, and polygamy in his "Biography". How many times do you think the articles about Rudy, McCain, Hillary, and Barak mention their religion? Take a wild guess. Do you think this page is fair to Romney? Do they treat Romney the same as Rudy or Hillary? I say no. No other candidate has their religion mentioned 12 times! No other candidate has scandalous behavior of their grandparent's discussed! And it's not just the fact that these things are mentioned, but that they are mentioned at the top of the page, as the first (and most likely last things that people read about Romney, as most people just want the executive summary) thing in the page. The first thing on the page, should be, in my opinion, the things that get him onto wikipedia. According to that procedure, the most important thing about Romney is that he is Mormon. This happens in my life also, and I hate it. People I work with see my Resume, they see that I went to BYU, and they ask me how many wives I have... It gets really old... I don't see what it is about Romney, that makes polygamy important to discuss, let alone in the first paragraph after the into... If they want to create a separate "religion section" that is fine, but I don't get it. I am a Mormon. If I ever become famous will polygamy be discussed in my wikipedia article? I don't mean to question the motives of those who are editing the page, but it seems to me that people are only going to discuss polygamy with regard to Romney (as apposed to other famous Mormons who don't have polygamy discussed in their wikipedia articles) because he is a politician and some people don't want to see him elected... I do want him to be elected, but I don't want his article to be pro-Romney, I just want him to be treated fairly... I don't think Romney's pre-marital sex life should be mentioned in the firs section after the into. I do not think polygamy should be mentioned there either... I have tried to change it, but this guy keeps changing it back... I want to formally request arbitration... He keeps saying that a lot of people discuss Romney's religion, so we should put it in their. I say that a lot of people look at porn, but that doesn't mean we should give it to them... wikipedia is supposed to treat people fairly, and professionally. myclob 00:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
[undent] Unfortunately, this is a complete distortion of what has been going on on Talk:Mitt Romney as well as a distortion of the actual article. There has been a great deal of discussion about this matter - Myclob's concerns have been replied to repeatedly - but he has just continued to say the same thing over and over again without responding to changes that have been made to try to accommodate him. I am afraid that his objections are very subjective - he says several times that he has experienced difficulties regarding his religion that this is similar to, and he has a strong POV about it - and while I am sorry for any discomfort he feels, that is not at all the intent of the way the article is written, nor is it a realistic complaint about it. Romney's religion, and his family background, are cited and discussed in numerous reliable sources, and they are included in the article because they are an issue that is commented on a great deal. Being bold is great, but ignoring what the other editors of the article have said on Talk is not ok. Tvoz |talk 02:48, 1 December 2007 (UTC) I did not "distort what was going on". I wrote exactly what Tvoz keeps reverting the article back to... It is not a " distortion of the actual article" of the article, I re-wrote the article exactly as it reads, and you can go read it yoursef... it says "Early life and family background" and all it talks about is his religion... "This has not been "greatly discussed" in the article... and "my concerns have been replied to repeatedly" How can it be fair to have the first part of Mitt Romney's article (after the intodduction) say that it is going to be talking about his "Early life and family background" but have 13 mentions of poligamy and his religion? Yes, Tvoz, keeps repeating that people like to talk about his religion, but he has not responded to any questions, as to why it should be kept in it's present state, what is wrong with moving the religion stuff out of the "Early life and family background" section, or to the argument that just because people like to do stuff that is unfair, doesn't mean wikipedia does... People ask how many wifes I have, when they see on my Resume that I went to BYU... People are doing the same thing to Mitt Romney, and Tvoz is the only person on the discussion page that thinks that this is fair, but apparently he has enough time to keep changing it back... Go to the discusion page.. there is not a concensus, but he keeps changing it back to the way he likes it with 13 mentions of Romney's religion within the "Early life and family background" section, which seems so rediculous to me that it just drives me crazy.myclob 14:43, 1 December 2007 (UTC) In fact if you look at the discussion page you will see that I, myclob, coolhandluke, and Raymondwinn all think it should change...myclob 15:28, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
It would be helpful if some experienced editors who don't have a personal stake in this article could weigh in about the standards for including this kind of fact on a Wikipedia bio page. Notmyrealname 03:05, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
FYI, we are back to square one. Th editor named Turtlescrubber has come along and made this edit reverting a version of the article that had been discussed at length here and at the Mitt Romney talk page. The article is now back to square one, and I must say that this is apparently an attempt to emphasize as strongly as possible that Romney is from a family of POLYGAMIST MORMONS. In my view, it's very offsensive. In addition, the version that Tutlescrubber has installed conatins blatant falsehoods. For example, it includes the following footnote: "Romney's family tree has polygamous roots Associated Press, February 242007." That is not the title of the Associated Press article, as I have repeatedly stated to Tutlescrubber.
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| The above is an archived Biographies of living persons incident concerning the article above. Please do not modify it. |