Talk:White people

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Here's an idea: let's write an article about White People!

There is a real body of literature that is explicitly about "white people" so there will be no doubt about appropriateness of sources or NOR, these works direcly address the subject of this artilce. Yet this article doesn't cite these sources! Let's write a great article by doing great research.

Perhaps the single most important reader

• Critical White Studies: Looking Behind the Mirror edited by Richard Delgado and Jean Stefancic;

Both are law professors and it is published by Temple University Press, so it is quite reputable. As an edited volume it contains essays by a plethora of authors and thus represents a wide range if views - helpful for complying with NPOV, and all in one easy source. I think this is generally considered the best collection of diverse essays. But to help you guys out some more, here are some other books directly relevant to this article:

• Allen, Theodore The Invention of the White Race
• Babb, Valerie. Whiteness Visible: The Meaning of Whiteness in American Literature and Culture (Valerie Babb is a professor of English at the University of Georgia)
• Bonnett, Alastair. White Identities: Historical and International Perspectives (Alistair onnet is a Reader of Geography in the University of Newcastle-upon-Thyne)
• Brodkin, Karen. How Jews Became White Folks: and What that says about Race in America (Karen Brodkin is a professor of Anthropology at UCLA)
• Dyer, Richard. White (Richard Dyer used to be in Media Studies at the University of Warwick)
• Hale, Grace Elizabeth. Making Whiteness: The Culture of Segregation in the South, 1890-1940 (Elizabeth Hale a professor of History at U. Virginia (and her book is very well-regarded, often assigned in college classes))
• Haney-Lopez, Ian. White by Law: The Legal Construction of Race (Ian Haney Lopez is a professor of Law at UC Berkeley)
• Hill, Mike, ed. Whiteness: A Critical Reader (Michale Hill is a professor of Social Policy at U. of Brighton)
• Hollinger, David. Post-Ethnic America (David Hollinger is a professor of History at UC Berkeley)
• Ignatiev, Noel. How the Irish Became White (Ignatiev is a professor of Critical Studies at the Massachussetts College of Art and a Fellow at Harvard university; this book is one of the foundational texts in Whiteness studies and is very widely cited)
• Jacobson, Matthew Frye. Whiteness of a Different Color: European Immigrants and the Alchemy of Race (Matthew Frye Jacobson is Chair of the American Studies Program at Yale)
• Kincheloe, Joe, ed. White Reign: Deploying Whiteness in America (Joe Kincheloe is a professor of Education at McGill (and there is a Wikipedia article about him!))
• Lipsitz, George. The Possessive Investment in Whiteness: How White People Profit from Identity Politics (George Lipsitz is a professor of Black Studies at UC Santa Barbara)
• McCarthy, Cameron and Warren Crichlow, eds. Race, Identity, and Representation in Education (Warren Crichlow is a professor of education at York University)
• Morrison, Toni. Playing in the Dark: Whiteness and the Literary Imagination
• Thomas, K. Nakayama, Judith N. Martin (editors): Whiteness: The Communication of Social Identity (Thomas Nakayama and Judith Martin are professors of Communication at Arizona State U)
• O'Donnell, James and Christine Clark, eds. Becoming and Unbecoming White: Owning and Disowning a Racial Identity (James O'Donnell is an associate professor of Education at New Mexico State U.)
• Omi, Michael and Howard Winant. Racial Formation in the United States from the 1960s to the 1980s (Michale Omi is an associate professor of ethnic studies at UC Berkeley; Howard Winant is a Professor of Sociology at UC Santa Barbara)
• Rasmussen, Birgit Brander, et al., eds., The Making and Unmaking of Whiteness (Birgit Brander Rasmussen is a professor of Chicano Studies at U. Wisconsin-Madison)
• Roediger, David. The Wages of Whiteness: Race and the Making of the American Working Class (David R. Roediger is a professor of History at U. Illinois Champaigne-Urbana (his book is another classic, it is assigned in LOTS of college courses),
• Rogin, Michael Paul. Black Face, White Noise: Jewish Immigrants in the Melting Pot (Michale Paul Rogin passed away but was a professor of Political Science at UC Berkeley)
• Saxton, Alexander. The Rise and Fall of the White Republic: Class Politics and Mass Culture in Nineteenth-Century America (Alexander Saxton is a professor of History at UCLA)

This is only a partial sampling of the amount written by scholars on the concept of "White people" - there is much more than the very length of the list reveals just how inadequate this article is, how much it is leaving out. Now, some of the above books are absolue classics. But for more cutting-edge research, your best bet is journals (it takes less time to write and publish a journal article than to write and publish a book, so rejecnt journal articles are more likely to be "state of the art." Of course, journal articles are also shorter which is a mixed blessing: obviously, they take less time to read, but they are much more focused. Still, good articles review the literature and thus provide handy summaries of the range of views. They can also provide great little case-studies that illustrate specific aspects of the concept "White people."

• American Anthropologist (Hartigan's article in 1997 is a god starting point)
• American Ethnologist
• Cultural Anthropology
• Current Anthropology
• American Journal of Sociology
• American Sociological Review
• British Journal of Sociology
• Journal of Historical Sociology
• Comparative Studies in Society and History
• Critical Inquiry
• Representations
• Public Culture

Any major library will have subscriptions to at least a few of these journals. In hard-copies, one could look at the index at the back of any given volume; if one has J-Stor or another electronic version of the journal once can do a boolean search. It woul dnot take long to search for "Whiteness," "White+Race" and "White+Ethnicity." You will not come up with an overhwlming number of articles, but what you do come up with will represent the best scholarship (these are all top-ranked peer-reviewed journals; the authors of the articles did all the complex hard work, we just need to benefit from their labor). You will also come up with book reviews and if the review is positive, it is probably worth reading the book. In the end, you will know a lot more about White people (which presumably is what you want, if this article interests you) and you will be able to improve this article by ensuring it complies with NPOV and by ensuring that you are not violating NOR. Like I said (I think!) above - good luck! No article in Wikipedia is ever perfect - after all, by its very Wiki nature, all articles are perpetual works in progress. But obviously this article can be much, much better. That's pretty exciting! Slrubenstein | Talk 13:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Money Whitens In Brazil Is Not 100% Accurate

I will use Pele for example, I do not know a single Brazilian who considers him to be White just because he is part of the upperclass. He is still seen as a Black man here in Brazil.

Maybe, but let's avoid OR, one good source on the complexities of race is Donna Goldstein's new book on race and gender in Brazil. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:53, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Picture??

I haven't looked back in the archives of the talk page, or the history of the article, but I'm shocked that there's not a picture of a white person in the article. --Piroteknix 01:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe because it is arbitrary, and subject to POV? :) Jeeny 01:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

No, it isn't arbitrary; just because there are gray areas at the margins of a category doesn't mean the entire definition or classification is arbitrary or that it is in dispute. Everyone recognizes Winston Churchill or Angela Merkel as examples of white people (in opposition to characterizations of them as black, for instance). You can problematize any category you like if you try hard enough, but that doesn't make every such characterization useless. W.M. O'Quinlan 19:37, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

The article "Black people" has four pictures of people from four different African countries. White people is an extremely broad category with quite a few people (famous or otherwise) in the demographic. We could make this article's picture mirror the picture on "Black people," using pictures of people who descend from European countries, or ever just ripping pictures from "French people," "Welsh people," etc. That does sound a bit arbitrary, but we could use some kind of system to pick. --Piroteknix 21:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but what system? However it's done, it will either exclude an ethnicity or group that some consider white, and will likely complain about, or include people that others consider not white, and will even more likely complain about. The only way to win is to deny the battle. SamBC(talk) 22:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

There was just such a battle at Black People and after some time a pretty good compromise has been reached. Look at the bottom of the page. Why not do something like that here? futurebird 23:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

There was a major controversy over a picture gallery here several months ago. It was finally moved to European people and then ultimately deleted. Several of us fought to keep it, but there was not enough support and too many people trying to populate the gallery with celebrity favorites etc. --Kevin Murray 04:54, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that there should be no gallery of representative whites.----^DarkTea© 08:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Sample of a generation of the gallery

Among the goals was to demonstrate the diversity within the definition "White People," and to show examples of the various ethnic groups.

These are photos of Europeans with links to articles on the ethnic group which they represent.

• Gordon Brown, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom is Scottish
  Gordon Brown, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom is Scottish
• 
  Russian athlete Anna Kournikova
• 
  Polish athelete Katarzyna Skowronska
• 
  Greek singer Elli Kokkinou
• Welsh performer Tom Jones
  Welsh performer Tom Jones
• Chechen singer Makka Sagaipova
  Chechen singer Makka Sagaipova
• Turkish athelete Fatih Tekke
  Turkish athelete Fatih Tekke
• 
  Basque politician Juan José Ibarretxe
• 
  Georgian singer Sopho Khalvashi
• Irish actor Colin Farrell
  Irish actor Colin Farrell
• Italian actress Monica Bellucci
  Italian actress Monica Bellucci
• 
  French politician Ségolène Royal
• Czech politician Vaclav Havel This file may be deleted after Sunday, 18 November 2007.
  Czech politician Vaclav Havel
  

  ---

  This file may be deleted after Sunday, 18 November 2007.
• Finnish President Tarja Halonen.
  Finnish President Tarja Halonen.
• 
  German Nobel Laureate Wolfgang Ketterle
• 
  Sami people are indigenous to Lapland.
• 
  Hungarian composer, Bela Bartok
• Icelandic singer, Björk
  Icelandic singer, Björk
• 
  Spanish artist, Pablo Picasso

I fail to see why this is controversial. It should be in the article. Maybe with fewer images. It could also use some americans. (wow, never thought I'd type that, most of the time there are too many americans.) futurebird 13:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

• There was an effort to demonstrate ethnic characteristics from regions where white people had migrated long ago, without reinforcing stereotypes. Populations in America, Australia, and South Africa represent more recent migrations. The number of people included grew to try to cover all the bases. --Kevin Murray 14:35, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
• Some people at WP oppose any galleries in articles and prefer to see them at Commons linked from the article. --Kevin Murray 14:35, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Classifications such as "white" are social constructs, they vary depending on the society in which the label is used. 150 years ago Jewish people in the USA would not have been considered "white", neither would Irish people. So who or what a "white person" is depends on context, both current cultural context and historical context. There has been some attempt in the past to equate "white people" with European people, or people of European descent, but of course many people who are of European descent are not considered "white" in some parts of the world. I remember a smilar dispute on the black people article where some editors contended that only people of African descent were black people. Another problem is the near synonymous usage of Caucasian and "white" in North America, something that does not exist in Europe. One of the problems is the contention that "white people" are a "race", but there is precious little evidence that the term "white" has the sort of "racial" classification that say Caucasian has. I remain unconvinced about the usefulness or validity of a gallery. There's no such thing as a "typical" person, whatever description is used, most variation is at the local level and not the "racial" level. What is a "typical" white person? I don't think anyone can answer this question. Alun 16:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Wobble, I respect you opinion, but maybe a gallery could be a way to show diversity? Just a thought... futurebird 16:52, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

My problem with this suggestion is my problem with the gallery - white people are white in a given context and the gallery takes photos out of context. Now, perhaps in some countries the context is so stable that there is wide agreement as to who is white, and everyone who people think is white actually self-idnetify as white. I know this was not the case in the US at certain times in history, nor is it the case in many other countries. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Look, part of the problem with this issue is that people keep trying to stipulate what should or shouldn't be included in the article on the basis of conclusions that the article itself doesn't reflect or hasn't reached. Unless we were going to include pictures of people who are considered white and who it is that considers them so, then there probably is no place for a picture gallery. I should add though, that I am a bit confused as to the extent to which the English language Wikipedia is supposed to reflect obscure disagreements among Brazilians or 16th century colonists over how to apply the term whiteness. Personally, I don't see how such ideas are any more relevant to this article than prehistoric man's ideas about "dogness" are to the dog article (astute observers will note that the "dog" article editors haven't hesitated to put up a picture of just one animal that at least most people agree is a dog). W.M. O'Quinlan 19:30, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, English-language wikipedia doesn't actually just cover things from an English-speaking point of view - that would be systemic bias. It obviously happens unintentionally and naturally, but we're supposed to work against it, not for it. As to comparing 16th century ideas to prehistoric ideas, the factor discriminating between them is that one is historic, and the other is prehistoric; that is, we have no way whatsoever of knowing about one, whereas we have historical documents and historical analyses for the other. SamBC(talk) 20:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

You're right about the distinction between history and prehistory, but that is not really what I was getting at (I just happened to pick a poor analog for that example; any historical period would do, and I think you'd find that there isn't this obsession with trying to reconcile definitions across time). In the case of avoiding systemic bias, I understand that to a point, but I think the examples used to counteract perceived bias are often very selective and are given disproportionate weight and significance in their respective articles. So I'm not suggesting that there is no place for them whatsoever, but they shouldn't be given more authority than they're due. W.M. O'Quinlan 22:59, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

i like the collage so far good ,but it lacks more white diversity,i would like to see some north africans such as zindene zadane who is not really french but a north african berber,and also the current miss egypt ehsan hatem would be some good famous people to add the pictures also more middle easterners i see you only have one there from turkey.how about some iranians or north indians--Mikmik2953 (talk) 05:26, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Why Is Bjork Included In The White Gallery ?

When me and my friends first saw her we said she looked like a mixed race Euroasian. None of us thought she looked White and I am sure most people in general will confuse her for being part Asian because of her Asian shaped eyes and jet black oriental like hair. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrazilianGuido (talk • contribs)

I think this just supports my previous comment. Everyone thinks they know what a "white" person looks like, but in actual fact the overwhelming majority of variation is within group and not between group. Coupled with the differences of perception of who or what a "white" person is that are learned from cultural experience, and therefore vary dramatically from culture to culture, we get a very different perception of what a "white" person looks like from people from different parts of the world. So Björk shouldn't be included because she doesn't "look white" to some editors, but presumably she obviously is "white" to other editors, after all she comes from Iceland, which was colonised very recently from Norway and Ireland? In the past some editors here have tried to only include people with light hair and skin and blue eyes, and some have objected to the inclusion of Mediterranean people because they are "too dark", yet others have claimed that people from the Near East are not European and so not "white", while others contend that they are "white" because they are Caucasian. I think this goes to the heart of the problem, everyone thinks that their cultural perception of "white" is the correct one and think that the perceptions of other editors who come from different parts of the world, and therefore have different ideas about what "white" means are just plain wrong. Alun 05:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I knew this was going to happen. Next will be Tom Jones...because he has a tan. Deja vu? Pfft!. Jeeny 06:08, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Amen??? ;)--Ramdrake 12:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Amen? People like Björk are, not surprisingly, the exception rather than the rule to something like "whiteness" (or more broadly, race). Take any category you think you know and there will be some sample member of that category that looks a little like another category's member; it isn't exclusive to human beings. On a separate note, it only makes it look even more like you're grasping at straws when you try to convince others on such a shady, tenuous basis as this. (Oh yeah, and sock-puppetry doesn't fool anyone.) W.M. O'Quinlan 14:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but would you mind being more specific with your accusations, and substantiating them? SamBC(talk) 16:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

WM, could you please clarify a couple of things. Who's argument is "clutching at straws" in your opinion? You do not direct your comment at any particular editor. I see no evidence that Björk is somehow an "exception", she is just a normal Icelandic person. Björk may have a relatively uncommon hair colour for an Icelandic person, but that is not the same as being exceptional, for example about 80% of Icelandic people have light coloured hair, which means that 1 in 5 have dark hair, hardly exceptional. And who are you accusing of sockpuppetry? It's very difficult to know who you are addressing when you make obscure remarks on one of these talk pages. Please try to be more explicit. Cheers. Alun 17:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about the confusion, but I was saying "Amen" to Alun's comment, mostly, and also in part to Jeeny's. While Björk may not look white, she is indeniably of a particular ethnic group (Icelandic)usually regarded as "white", thus one shouldn't discount her for looking the way she looks.--Ramdrake 17:34, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

If we are talking about biological groups, the notion of "an exception to the rule" has been unscientific since Darwin, for whom groups have no reality other than statistical and the "exceptions" are at least if not more important than the norm or ideal type. If we are talking about social groups - which I think we must be, in this article - we need two empirical data: how does Bjork self-identify, and what do "white people" consider "typical?" Knowing Bjork as well as I do I have no idea how she would answer the first question or if she would even care to. As for the second questions, while I think that while there may in fact be a number of different answers to the question (Himmler, Garrison Keiler, and DW Griffith may all have had ideas - and their ideas may well be different, and also are we sure that their ideas were shared by most people? I take this question seriously, seriously enough to suppose that there are answers and seriously enough to state right now that I will not guess what they are or make them up. Let's see what reliable, appropriate, verifiable sources say.) Slrubenstein | Talk 17:49, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the vagaries. I was referring BrazilianGuido's comment as sock-puppetry because it sounds to me like nothing more than Wobble or Jeeny's attempt at including a comment that neither one wanted to seem directly responsible for (because it srikes me as being that absurd). If I am wrong, then I apologize, but the wording and timing of that comment seems very odd to me, especially in light of the fact that BrazilianGuido is a very new username with few contributions and thus looks to me like someone's sock-puppet.

I consider that line of argument (that is, the mentioning of how Bjork doesn't look white) as "grasping at straws" because it attempts to induce very strong conclusions (namely, that "whiteness" is nothing more than a form of social consensus) from a very limited and personal experience (e.g. a glance at a thumbnail on an internet webpage). When I say that she is an "exception to the rule" I mean that for a firm majority of people, it is not difficult to identify their ancestry. It's true, Bjork does look like she could have some Asian ancestry, but one is in no position to conclude on that basis that the category "race" has no real biological foundation. Pick any category of nature that you like, and you'll find that not every instance seems to agree with the given set of conditions (for instance, there are two species of chimpanzee which humans cannot even differentiate by appearance, but it doesn't follow from this that the differences must therefore be culturally or socially defined). W.M. O'Quinlan 23:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

What hapenned to AGF.Muntuwandi 00:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, i would like to act in good faith but frankly it is hard to think that WMO knows what he is talking about here. "For a firm majority of people" - well, definitely not life scientists or social scientists. Let me take you at good faith and accept you are referring to someone - who? Please provide a reliable and verifiable source. That race is a biologically meaningless category is the consensus among evolutionary scientists. Your (WMO) last sentence is simply a non-sequitor, it does not bear on the topic of this article, it does not bear on discussions of race or ethnicity, and it does not bear on this thread. Let's just drop this silly thread and get back to the business of working on the article. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:54, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

No, you're wrong about evolutionary scientists having reached a consensus on the issue; cultural anthropologists perhaps have, but there are plenty of evolutionary scientists and other academics who think there are meaningful distinctions between the races (and you needn't look far to find them publishing to this effect; take, for instance, Mainstream Science on Intelligence). I don't know why this should be so controversial, but what I said before about the "firm majority" was simply that anyone can fairly easily and accurately tell where another person's ancestors came from geographically just by looking at them; thus, unlike Bjork, most people (that is, the "firm majority") aren't ambiguous in this respect. I don't need to cite anything for this, it is practically a tautology; we couldn't have "socially constructed" these ideas about race if it weren't true that most people could classify others in this way.

My analogy to the chimpanzees is hardly a non-sequitur, and it does bear heavily on the issue at hand. Try to follow: Wobble and others are arguing that because Bjork cannot be placed into one taxonomic category (namely, whiteness) on the basis of her appearance, there is therefore no reason to think that said category is meaningful in a biological, taxonomic way. So if we assume this to be true, then we should apply the same criteria to other taxonomic considerations (for instance, chimpanzees). Thus, if we take some given chimpanzee and try to categorize him taxonomically (e.g. correctly identify his species (there are two species of chimps)) on the basis of his physical appearance, we will find that we cannot, because there aren't any visible distinctions to be made. Therefore, using Wobble's logic, we are to deduce that there is no meaningful taxonomic distinction to be offered among chimpanzees, just as we deduced about human beings with regard to race. However, as it turns out, we know that this is not true, because in fact there are at least two distinct species of chimpanzees and they cannot even interbreed. Naturally, I am not arguing that human races are by any means the same as species, but if we couldn't get at the right conclusion about chimpanzee taxonomy using Wobble's logic, then why should we think the same logic tells us something true about human beings and their taxonomy? I hope I haven't confused things further, but I too would like to move off of this topic because I don't think helps the article much. Cheers. W.M. O'Quinlan 04:33, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

"simply that anyone can fairly easily and accurately tell where another person's ancestors came from geographically just by looking at them" - of course I agree with you: all humans have opposable thumbs and shoulders that allow us to swing our arms, and we do not have tails, so it is obvious all our ancestors come from Africa. There are other observable differences that allow me to make very good guesses (uh, lets call them probablistic statements, since we are trying to be scientific here) about what continent some of a person's ancestors come from. I want to emphasize the "continent" and "some." This is not the smae thing as race, nor is it the same as ethnic group. About the chimpanzees, you miss the point. ALL human beings are biologically distinct. It is even likely that there are phenotypic differences between identifical twins, and if you ignore identical twins which are rare there are genetic differences among all human beings. That sometimes and in some places people have selected some biological features as racial markers does not make "race" a biological reality or scientifically meaningful concept, and it certainly does not contradict the assertion, widely held, that races are social constructs. By the way, the "mainstream science" advertisement proves my point. Although the authors claim to repreent some mainstream view, in fact they are a minority, and most of the signatories of the statement are not evolutionary scientists, and indeed, they get basic concepts in evolutionary science, like heritability, flat-out wrong. An advertisement by people, most of whom are untrained dilettants when it comes to the scientific study of human evolution, is hardly a mainstream view no matter what the paid advertisement itself claims. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:13, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Remember what we are talking about though; the argument being made was that because Bjork doesn't quite look like most "whites" the category is therefore an invalid one. You and I both agree then that the biological existence of race doesn't in fact hinge on this set of conditions (we probably disagree on other parts of the discussion though). Also, I think we agree that just because there are phenotypic markers which allow most of us to infer one another's ancestries (and of course I mean more specifically than Africa--we didn't come up with the "out of Africa" hypothesis based on phenotypes, we did it based on genetics and fossils) this likewise doesn't mean that race has some biological reality to it. The true test of whether or not there is biological reality to race is of course a biological one. To human geneticists this is not a case closed; the "mainstream science" article doesn't actually prove your point. All it shows is that there are plenty of respected professionals (some of whom are evolutionary psychologists) who disagree with what you and the social scientists are saying. I am not arguing that it is the majority opinion of scholars that race does exist in a biologically meaningful way, but to suggest that there is some consensus and therefore the issue is decided is just wrong; that is not how science works. W.M. O'Quinlan 14:35, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

• • • "because" Bjork doesn't quite look like most "whites"

What do "most whites" look like? Who says Björk doesn't look like "most whites"? No individual person looks like "most whites". This is a really absurd comment and seems to be based on ignorance of the fact that the vast majority of diversity is found within group in the human species. Alun 14:15, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

This is what the creator of this thread topic said, not what I said. W.M. O'Quinlan (talk) 19:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

• • • the category is therefore an invalid one

What "category"? I don't think any anthropologist has ever used Björk's appearance as the defining reason for the non existence of biological race. Alun 14:15, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

You obviously have not read the thread up to that point because no one is saying anything of the sort. W.M. O'Quinlan (talk) 19:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

• • • the biological existence of race doesn't in fact hinge on this set of conditions

What set of conditions? What biological existence of "race"? This article is about "white people" and not the existence of "race". White people are not a "race", or if you are claiming they are, then you need to decide which model of "race" they are equivalent to, because all "biological race" models are based on socially constructed criteria. Alun 14:15, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

That's exactly what we're arguing here so you can't take that on assumption. Reread the posts up to that point and try to follow along before you offer that kind of rebuttal. These are all things that either you or other people have said which I was just summarizing for clarifying an argument I made earlier. W.M. O'Quinlan (talk) 19:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I think we agree on the bigger issues. I still stand by what I wrote: first, how does Bjork identify herself, and second, what verifiable sources de we have on Whiteness? Illustrations should illustrate content (and content that complies with the core content policies) and not just be thrown in because we have a fair-use photo. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Bjork's phenotype is easily within Eurasian range which is why she does not strike me as the poster girl for Whiteness. Even the racial anthropology forums that I have posted in have many members who have classified her as not looking fully White/Caucasoid and see traces of Mongoloid in her features like the shape of her eyes which are too slanted this indicating some Mongoloid admixture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BrazilianGuido (talk • contribs) 05:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Which just goes to show what a lot of absolute gibberish "racial anthropology" (whatever that is) discussions are, as far as I can see. Some moronic people running neo-nazi sites devoted to "racial typing" have decided that Björk can't be "European" because they do not think she looks right. Sounds like it's right up Joseph Mengele's street. Alun 14:15, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Here's a nice blog post by a biologist about using an anthropometric "cranial calculator" to estimate his "race", it's very good and highlights what nonsense this all really is.

Nevertheless, she is from Iceland, whose people are usually considered "white" and unless and until one comes up with a statement from a reliable source which says she identifies otherwise, nobody can count here as anything but "White" on looks alone. There is enough human genetic variety that someone can looklike her and still be "White". Please remember that facts, not personal opinions is what WP is based upon.--Ramdrake 11:54, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

But other than the (apparently huge) issue that Bjork looks Asian, there's nothing wrong with the gallery? If we took out Bjork and added another Icelandic person (one which doesn't look Asian), we could put the gallery in without complaints? The only complaint about the gallery I've seen is that Bjork looks Asian. Is everyone else content with the sample gallery? --Piroteknix 15:35, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Who says Björk looks Asian? Who says that she can't be included just because some odd people think that their personal opinion about what "looks white" (or "looks European" or looks like something that they think is the subject of this page, but can't actually define it) does not encompase the way Björk looks. The reason we don't have a gallery is because a gallery is a stupid idea, there is no accepted universal concept of what "white" is, and you'll never get any consensus about who to include. There's been argument at the English people article for an eternity about who should be included in the infobox picture. As soon as some notables are decided upon, someone raises an objection. Not only is the validity of the concept of "white" at issue, but the acceptance or rejection of any given individual is extremely difficult to get consensus on. We start to get arguments about there being no Germans, or no Armenians or no Israelis etc, untill you'll end up with a gallery of thousands of people, because every group of people with any claim to being "white" will demand representation. This is in addition to the fundamental dafftness of galleries as a concept in the first place. If you want as gallery, then go and play around with commons:White people. You can always put a link to it on the article page. Alun 14:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

sigh… I believe that the inclusion of Björk was deliberate, because she doesn't look stereotypically white, but my almost every formal definition that's ever been put forward seriously, she is. Beyond that, there has been so much hoo-hah over that gallery before, that it really isn't worth keeping. What does it add? Do we really believe it helps anyone understand the content of the article? By the way, take this as an objection. SamBC(talk) 15:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Of course a picture or gallery helps. I don't see how it can't hurt. If anything, the inclusion of a picture that might not be considered white by the majority of people helps us understand what "white" can mean. If Bjork's ancestory is pure Icelandic (or at least not a mix of Asian and European), if she is genetically white, then she's the perfect example of what "white" can mean to people. If she's genetically white, she should definitely be included in the gallery to show how many phenotypes are included in "white." Other than Bjork looking a bit Asian, what other problems with a gallery are there? --Piroteknix 15:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Sources discussed here in recent weeks indicate problems with any idea of anyone being "genetically" white. In any case, including people that some people will look at and say "they aren't white!" is a recipe for edit wars. Can people really not understand what's being said without pictures? If they can, then it's better to avoid the edit wars and the bigot-bait. SamBC(talk) 18:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• Of course a picture or gallery helps. I don't see how it can't hurt.

So Piroteknix, you are saying that it must hurt? How can anyone be "genetically white", surely it should be "biochemically white", i.e. lacking the biochemical ability to synthesize reasonable quantities of the pigment melanin? This is the whole problem isn't it, a gallery is always going to be a bad idea, there will never be a consensus about who should or should not be included. Alun 15:10, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

• • Way to bring an irrelevant typo into the discussion. I meant it can not hurt the article, but if people argue “omg this guy is .03% Asian, he’s not white,” it’ll be a problem. If we want only pictures of people who are 100%, pure white by heritage and phenotypes, there wouldn’t a person we could use as an example, which also makes this article moot, or hypothetical at best. If there’s not a person in this world that would be, visually and by heritage, considered a “white person” by us on the talk page, there isn’t a person that falls into the category of “white person” in the article. --Piroteknix 15:29, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

The only person here who seems to think that the concept of "100% white" has any relevance or validity is you. No one can ever be 100% genetically "white", or to put it another way, we are all at least 30% banana. Alun 15:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

• I don't see any advantage of keeping the Bjork picture, with the hand on the face obscuring the features. The style of the photo seems to be deliberately ambiguous and androgynous through either a manipulation of makeup or effects of the camera etc. Perhaps we should seek another photo of the person or of another Icelander. --Kevin Murray 15:03, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd side with Alun on this, and I'd rather say we lose the entire gallery. It's just a giant edit-war here! sign, for all instances and purposes. And if one must keep the gallery, I'd say we should keep Björk's picture, as an example of how far the diversity of "white" people can go.--Ramdrake 15:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

RD, I don't say take Bjork out, but that could be virtually anyone under that makeup and image manipulation. --Kevin Murray 15:18, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

::: RD, I was a big proponent of the gallery a few months back. I still believe that it has potential value as expressed by Alun above, but the fight to keep it from becoming a popularity contest or POV tool is overwhelming. I'd like to see this included as a great demonstration of diversity, but am skeptical of the practicality. --Kevin Murray 15:18, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

You're saying it's hard to prove that anyone is genetically white, right? Then the page about "white people" and "black people" are hypothetical: no one (or almost no one) falls into the category of "white" or "black." Someone is 98.5% European and 1.5% Asian and he or she isn’t considered a good candidate for a picture of a white person. You say Bjork (and other people of questionable or arguable white phenotypes) shouldn’t be in the gallery because it causes “hoo-hah.” This means anyone who isn’t 100% pure genetically white could be arguable, making the entire concept of a (pure) “white” person or “black” person moot. --Piroteknix 15:15, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Your comment is quite confused, but I'll try to answer what I think you mean. There is no such thing as "genetically white", there's no such thing as "98% white", there's no such thing as "50% white". White is a social construct, one is "white" if one is accepted as "white" by a community, one is not "white" if one is not accepted as "white" by a community or society, irrespective of that person's ancestry. It's not about biology, it's about culture and society. The only people here who claim that Björk is of "questionable" anything are those who cling to a "biological conception of whiteness", but there is no such thing. No person is ever "100% pure genetically" anything except perhaps 100% genetically themselves, we are all genetically unique after all. I have never said that Björk shouldn't be in the gallery, I think that a gallery is a stupid idea full stop, because it is irrelevant and can never be of any use, what will it illustrate? The only thing genetics has to do with "whiteness" is that people who have pale skin are incapable of producing melanin, if genetics is your definition of "white" then we should include all people who fail to produce a certain level of melanin as "white"? Is that what you are saying? I suppose this would therefore include quite a lot of Asians as "white" anyway though. It's the only genetic basis for "white" that I can think of. Alun 15:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I support the idea of a gallery because no one is genetically, by heritage, pure, 100% white. The idea that Bjork shouldn't be in the gallery goes against the article. You're saying the gallery shouldn't be included because it doesn't contribute anything? It illustrates the diversity of people considered white by society. I mentioned pure whiteness because it's the only against Bjork. She’s from Iceland, so she would be considered white because of her heritage, and she is socially considered white because she’s Icelandic, so there only reason she shouldn’t be in is because someone thinks she looks Asian. --Piroteknix 15:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Alun, I think Piroteknix here is trying very hard agree with you. :) To all, while I think a gallery might be good for illustrative purposes of the diversity of white people, I think we'll always run into situations like this. Now, the question is: do we want to put up with explaining why such objections as "they aren't white because" are pointless again and again, or jsut remove the gallery and spare ourselves the nonsensical debates? I put the question to you.--Ramdrake 15:45, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

• I misspoke above. The gallery example here was deemed irrelevant to White people months ago, and if practical it is potentially relevant to European people. Alun is absolutely correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevin Murray (talk • contribs)

Ok, Piroteknix, I think we agree on this, I was misunderstanding your point of view. Conceptually the idea of having a broad range of people may be valid, though I'm unconvinced of the validity of a gallery personally. But I think there is a real problem with getting any sort of consensus about what "white" means vis a vis a gallery, and who is "representative". I still think the commons is the way to go. I also think that Kevin's idea that this is more appropriate to European people has a great deal of validity. Alun 16:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

If we use a broad enough range of people, we wouldn't need "representatives," we only need enough people to cover the characteristics mentioned in the article. We wouldn't need a picture of a person from every one country in which people are considered white, just enough to cover the basics. --Piroteknix 20:31, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

LOL. Absolutely hilarious. You want to illustrate a concept on which barely two people can agree and then, surprise surprise, you disagree over whom you should use to illustrate it. "White" is an invention, not a real thing. It's oppositional to "black", which we had to invent because we homogenised people from many different cultures and ethnicities (by enslaving them). This, by the way, is nonsense: "I support the idea of a gallery because no one is genetically, by heritage, pure, 100% white." "White" is entirely descriptive, nothing to do with genetics, and the idea of being "pure" white is so disgusting that you'd think people would be ashamed to bandy it about. (Even allowing it as a concept is a bad thing.) Obviously not though. As I point out below, Osama bin Laden considers himself "white". So do Berbers. Let's have a picture of Zidane next to Björk's. B-b-but... yeah, I know. He doesn't look half pastyfaced enough for the "purist". The gallery is clearly intended as a metric for readers to be able to have a definitive source for the descriptive "white": you measure up your person against our gallery, and if they fit the stereotype we provide, they're "white". Nice one. Grace Note 05:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah, we absolutely disagree. Especially Alun saying "Ok, Piroteknix, I think we agree on this." I'm mulatto (50% black, 50% French-Canadian more or less, let’s not get into it), I’m not a “purist” who only wants pure, 100% Aryans on the page, disallowing anyone who is darker than this shade or that shade to be “white.” That’s the opposite of the point that would be made by the gallery. I mean "pure" in the sense that the person's father isn't from Kenya and his or her mother isn't from Thailand: the person obviously has descendants from Europe that would also be considered “white”. I’m half black and you're calling me a purist?! That’s ludicrous. I said we should have pictures to illustrate the variety of people that could be considered white because “white” has such a broad spectrum. A gallery would only be a fraction of the people considered white, but broad enough to show that you don’t have to have THIS skin tone to be white. It wouldn’t be the “White Chart” where, if a person fall between this color and that color, he or she can be white, but to hell with the rest of you. There is an article on “white people,” so there should, hypothetically, be at least one person who would fall under that category. If white is “invented,” and “not a real thing,” and the same for “black people,” why would we even have articles for them. That makes the articles, especially any physical definition of a person (“pale skin”), or any physical location of heritage (“of European ancestry”), an opinion by the writer(s), and these articles can never be considered NPOV. --Piroteknix 15:31, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Just a correction, I don't think that you have contributed to the homogenisation of any people. You were not in existence during those times. Muntuwandi 05:28, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Another correction: computers and steam locomotives and atom bombs were all invented but they have Wikipedia articles. Just because something is invented does not mean we should not have an article on it. I would have thought this was obvious but Piroteknix seems to think that the opposite is the case and we need to be clear on this. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:37, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

"White" isn't something you can hold in your hand like the other things. It was invented in the sense that it's a category to put people into, but everyone here seems to think there's no way to tell if someone is in this category or not. I agree, a general consensus about someone's skin tone shouldn't be the way to tell if someone is white, but if that's not the way, what is? If there isn't a surefire way to tell, and not everyone will agree that a person is white, can we not be sure that anyone actually falls into the category of white or black? --Piroteknix 23:19, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Let me try to explain: what most editors here argue about is that there isn't a single definition of "white" that everyone will agree with. While there are some people most will agree are "white", where each people draws the line between "white" and "non-white" (or "other than white") is actually quite subective, a definite matter of interpretation, and possibly the subject of hundreds of different definitions: are non-Europeans "white"? are non-Christians "white"? You may think the answer is obvious, but in the past, some editors here have answered both questions with a resounding "no". So, please forgive if some editors here react rather sensitively each time the question is potentially brought up. Personnally, I think there are some people you can definitely put in the category, but there are also a lot of people that others would disagree about if you tried to put them in a category, and unfortunately, we have all become rather sensitive to the issue here. Hope my explanation makes sense. I'm personnally an ethnic mix myself (although I do identify as French-Canadian culturally), so I guess the issue has resonance with me, has it does for many, many of us.--Ramdrake 00:40, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Piroteknix writes, "everyone here seems to think there's no way to tell if someone is in this category or not." This is a red-herring. Editors never express their own views, only verifiable views expressing a notable point of view. I have said several times that once we have laid out the notable, verifiable views of who is white, we can add photos to illustrate. But our content policies apply to photos as much as they do to words. When we add photos they should illustrate all notable views, even conflicting ones. But our additions should illustrate the article and be guided by V, RS, and NPOV. As far as I am concerned all other issues are red-herrings. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:30, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

This discussion isn't about Wikipedia editors' opinions on whiteness, and until we can all resist the impulse to inject our own thoughts about whiteness into the article, talk of a picture gallery should be suspended. We have no business making up a gallery depicting white people if we don't have a reasonable source or sources that say what or whom such a gallery should depict. W.M. O'Quinlan 18:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

And even then, it would be white people according to such a source. Agreed.--Ramdrake 18:49, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Jossi

User:Jossi reverted to this version of the article because s/he claimed it had a "better quotation". It did not have a better quotation. It did not have a direct quotation from Blumenbach. My version of the article did have a direct quotation. Would Jossi please explain this reasoning?----^DarkTea© 16:52, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You deleted a good source. I have re-added it and consolidated Blumenbach's opinions of others. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

We need to add to Blumenbach stuff, that many of his theories were adopted by nazi Germany. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:19, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

lead image

This article needs an image in the lead. I suggest maybe one of Ronald Reagan or someone else who is white and famous. There are millions of white people; it shouldn't be too difficult to find an image. Yahel Guhan 02:46, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

That is the problem, there are too many people so disputes will arise as to whether any one person is representative of the whole group. Muntuwandi 03:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no one photo that will encompass the large variety of persons that are considered "white". ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

(ec) I understand, but you said yourself, that there "are millions of white people" so how could one image represent all white people? I don't think Ronald Reagan can represent White people IMO, as there will often be those who object. What about Bill Clinton? Again, whiteness is arbitrary, and it is difficult to use one, two or even 4 or more images to cover the spectrum, and every one will have their own view as who is "white". Again how can one image represent the whole "white race", since there are millions, if not billions? Jeeny ^(talk) 03:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC) UnsignedIP -->

Here is another idea. We do something similar to what is done on black people. Have an image which actually is a collection of multiple images. Yahel Guhan 23:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Let's go for Osama bin Laden. He thinks he's white. That's kind of the problem with broadbrush definitional terms, isn't it? They depend on whom you're talking to. Grace Note 05:01, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

LOL. I agree 100%! I don't know if you were here a few months ago (re: this article) There were a bunch, (now indef banned) that wanted only the "pure white race" represented (no tanned whites either), (IE. Aryan, as in German, blonde, blue-eyed, etc.) in the article. Sheesh. lol. Jeeny ^(talk) 05:31, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

INTERESTING ADDITION: ANCESTRY AND WHITE PEOPLE

SEE:

According to the study all non-African populations are more closely related to each other than to Africans consistent with the hypothesis that all non-Africans are descended from a single African population. Europeans are most closely related to East Asians and least related to Africans. However of all the non-African populations, Europeans are most closely related to Africans. As the genetic distance from Africa to Europe (16.6) is shorter than the genetic distance from Africa to East Asia (20.6) and even much shorter than the Genetic distance from Africa to Australia. Cavalli-Sforza proposes that the simplest explanation for this short genetic distance is that substantial gene exchange has taken place between the nearby continents. Cavalli-Sforza also proposes that both Asian and African populations contributed to the settlement of Europe which began 40 000 years ago. The overall contributions from Asia and Africa were estimated to be around two-thirds and one-third, respectively. Europe has a genetic variation in general of about a third of that of other continents.

THIS TYPE OF INFORMATION IS IMPORTANT FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS:

1. THE FACT THAT DARK SKINNED PEOPLES, IN SOME CASES VERY DARK SKINNED PEOPLES LIKE INDIANS, NATIVE AMERICANS, NATIVE AUSTRALIANS, ETC ARE LESS RELATED TO SUBSAHARAN AFRICANS THAN WHITE EUROPEANS.

2. THE FACT THAT RACIALIZED EUROPEAN SOCIETIES HAVE MORE OR LESS SPREAD THE MYTH OF US AND THEM (COLORED VERSUS WHITE PEOPLE), THEM BEING ALL THE OTHER "COLORED" PEOPLES, AS IF ALL THE OTHER COLORED PEOPLES WERE CLOSER RELATED, ON THE ONE HAND, AND WHITES FUTHER AWAY FROM THEM ALL.

3. POINTS OUT HOW MEANINGLESS IS SKIN PIGMENTATION AND SUPERFICIAL FEATURES TO TRY AND INFER ANCESTRY, A KEY COMPONENT IN THE CONCEPT OF RACE.

THEREFORE I SUGGEST THAT THIS INFORMATION IS SOMEHOW USED AND ELABORATED ON IN THIS ARTICLE. IT IS VERY INFORMATIVE TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THE MYTHS THAT STILL SURROUND RACIALIZED VIEWS OF WHITE AND NON-WHITE PEOPLES. JAN —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.175.249.250 (talk) 11:10, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

How do you solve a problem like Hayden5650?

Banned user Hayden is back and reverting multiple times. I have semi-protected the page, at least for a few days, so we don't have to waste time reverting him. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I think that semi-protection should be permanent on sensitive articles. --Kevin Murray (talk) 23:44, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree Kevin. This one and Negro, Negroid as for the past few days he's been all over them. ~Jeeny ^(talk) 00:37, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I will avoid personal attacks, and will strive to be civil, to fellow wikipedians. As far as i see it, banned user are like outlaws. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:37, 17 November 2007 (UTC) How do you hold a moonbeam in your hand? Sarsaparilla (talk) 18:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Page protection HELP

It says it is semi-protected: "Editing of this article by unregistered or newly registered users is currently disabled due to vandalism." Well, I'm registered, and am a long time editor, well kinda, yet I can't edit. So are we to be punished because of the racist troll Hayden the crusader? -Jeeny ^(talk) 05:24, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

• I think that SL goofed and protected rather than semi protected, which was his stated intent. Probably just need to find another admin to fix this if he is off-line. --Kevin Murray (talk) 05:30, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
  • I think so too. What a goof. :p -Jeeny ^(talk) 05:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Look on the bright side, it's a good reason to get away from the computer and go dancing. WP will be here tomorrow, but there is only one Saturday night each week. Cheers! --Kevin Murray (talk) 06:10, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I goofed. I fixed it now. Sorry. You can go bck to work on it - by the way, I see real improvement on the page, good progress! Slrubenstein | Talk 12:03, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

No pictures

In stark contrast with black people, white people has absolutely no photos of white people at all? JayKeaton (talk) 03:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

There is a perfectly good gallery of white people in the commons which is linked in the see also section of this article. There has been an inordinate amount of squabbling about whether this article should or should not have any images of white people, but there is even more squabbling when someone tries to include an image, everyone has a different opinion about who should be included. In this particular article images have just led to edit wars, so the best policy has been to have the gallery at the commons. This also sorts out the problem of unfree images because the commons only contains free images. There are several threads above about this subject if you want to see the numerous discussions about this subject. All the best. Alun (talk) 07:02, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see what the fuss is about. There is enough room in this article for an old female, a young female, an old man, a young man and a baby. It doesn't really matter who they are just as long as it relates to the article, which is white people. Could even mix it up a little by showing one or two images of white people from history. I don't think we should let someone elses squabbles spoil the quality of this article, that's like letting the terrorists win. JayKeaton (talk) 11:37, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

AUSTRALIA

More emphasis on Australian perceptions of white and how the barrier between Nordics and Mediterraneans still exist. Southern Europeans are still not widely regarded as white in that country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.176.58.18 (talk) 09:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

That is somewhat true, but the 2006 census shows that half the Italian population have origins other than Italian, almost overwhelmingly other European origins such as Irish, English, Scottish, showing that the future of Italian-Australians will be multi-ethnic, which shows a growing social acceptance with Northern Europeans; I would highly not consider them to be "divided by a barrier".

The government has always considered every European as white including Italians, Greeks, macedonians, Portuguese etc. See White Australia policy. Plus I would consider rugby player Mark Ricciuto, Natalie Imbruglia, and the Veronicas as white persons, but there will always be some who consider them white and others who dont. Galati (talk) 18:54, 25 December 2007 (UTC)Galati

Well this is all very relative, popular perceptions. In Europe, some Europeans (a bit idiotic in my opinion) do not consider Australians white at all or anyone who is not from Europe, for they are all very mixed and so on.In fact whites in all those places are becoming minorities and some extremists in Europe think that those "whites" remaining are all suspect. But that has to do with extremist views rather than interesting information for a encyclo. To see what I mean look at the population structure of California, which is meaningful in relation to what is going on in those places. Only about 40% identify a white. It is logical that 40% of people who are supposed to be white, living among 60% who are not white, are not that white indeed, and in any case those places cannot be considered white territories anymore. The problem is that this issue has often racist overtones and a lot of people do not want to see that most of the European colonies f the past are not white anymore, although some citizens from those places overreact trying to convince themselves and others that their countries and they themselves are very white. I think a good example is the comment from this user from Australia, a territory of dubious white majorities right now, who likes to claim that he is whiter than other Europeans. It is a interesting case of these types of reactions, which can be understood in very racialized societies that are becoming non-White or which are non-White anymore. John.

By the way, there is a lot of ignorance in relation to skin pigmentation in Southern Europeans and people seem keen to ignore all scientific evidence and continue with their stereotypes. They do not even read the article. See here>:

http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/chem/faculty/leontis/chem447/PDF_files/Jablonski_skin_color_2000.pdf

It is a scientific study that is already in the article and lots of people here seem to ignore. It measures the skin pigmentation of different populations in areas of the body not exposed to the sun. The Spaniards (samples from two regions in Spain), in spite of living in a Mediterranean area, where a darker skin pigmentation is to be expected due to exposure to the sun, as the article states, show a skin pigmentation in unexposed areas similar or even lighter than that of Northern Europeans (see page 18). Spaniards have an observed reflectance of around 65. For a comparison, Namibians have around 22-25, North Africans (Tunisians) around 56 (Morrocans) around 54, in Japan 55. What about Europe. In London it is 62, darker than in Spain, although in other areas it is slightly lighter at 66.In Ireland 64-65. In Belgium 63, again darker than in Spain. So much for so much ignorance about the subject, that seems very common in this Anglosphere full of people who think that Spaniards or other Southern Europeans are like Mexicans. Funny they do not think that Jamaicans are not like the British.It should be mentioned, though, that pale skin is considered unattrative in Spain and that most people will almost kill to get some colour or a good tan, in the beaches or in even using sunbeds. In fact most people do not consider pale skin attractive, so I do not think why so much fuss about such a ridiculous issue. The information is there, in any case. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.220.201.69 (talk) 20:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Reverts by some users

Interesting to see how when the word Spaniard comes up in the article no one has any problems to revert.

1. In the part some Europeans like Spaniards were not considered white in the US. Being this absolutely false. Still I have no problem, leave it.

2. The cherry picked articles by some German proto-Nazi authors from the 18th and 19th centuries.

But when a 21st century article comes up with a scientific and objective result, then people like the Ogger, just revert.

What is wrong? Why is now the word Spaniard inconvenient? Why is it not in the ohter cases? Is the article all right as long as it does not mention this part?. I agree with the people who have made this contribution. Maybe reword it would be good. Erasing the term this time but not others smell of bad faith. Billythekid.