Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2008 March 8: Difference between revisions

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8 March 2008

Image:AnonymousDemotivator.jpg

This image was recently retained at a result of an IFD discussion, at which there was a consensus that the image was acceptable pursuant to our fair use policy and guidelines, an outcome which there was no consensus to overturn at the previous deletion review discussion. Wasting no time, Xaosflux removed the image from Anonymous (group) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) less than an hour after the closure of the prior deletion review discussion, then deleted it scarcely one minute later as an "orphaned fair-use" image. Wikipedia operates on the basis of consensus, not unilateral deletionism. John254 22:06, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

overturn/undelete Yeah, that's not good. Appears to be a direct attempt to get around the consensus. JoshuaZ (talk) 00:23, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Wow... Nice to know anyone even bothered to mention this to me... </sarcasm>. Some admins I had a great deal of respect for lost a whole lot of that respect in my book today. IronGargoyle (talk) 00:58, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What was done by Xaosflux was wrong. I restored the image per the Mar. 1 deletion review. If the discussion needs to be taken further, it needs to go through the proper dispute resolution process. -Nv8200p talk 01:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think Xaosflux was misled by a (IMO) bogus CSD tag that was placed on the image Mar. 8 and dated Mar. 3 -Nv8200p talk 05:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I concur. IronGargoyle (talk) 18:26, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn the deletion by Xaoflux (which was done) and seek furthur consensus through discussion. Without commenting on the image, I am, quite frankly, disappointed by Xaoflux's conduct orphaning and immediately deleting the image after an XFD just concluded on it. It certainly didn't fall under any criteria for CSD. CSD does not trump XFD. If an XFD takes place and it is kept, then a discussion must take place to delete the image, not judgement by a single user. — Κaiba 12:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note This is not a !vote of endorsement to keep the image, but simply an overturn !vote because I believe the process which it was deleted was improper. I have no opinion on the image itself and that is why my above comment also reflects to continue discussing it until a consensus is formed. — Κaiba 15:39, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy delete - in big letters: will perpetually fail WP:NFCC#10a because we can never know who holds the copyright. I seriously can't believe people want to keep images that are blatant violations of our Non-free content criteria. Will ^(talk) 15:02, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please note that the administrator who closed the prior deletion review discussion found that the image was compliant with WP:NFCC#10a:
NFCC10a demands source and copyright holder. A source was found (seemingly midway through the debate). Please note that WP:NFCC does not require that this source be linked to. A specific description of where this source can be found in some other media may be acceptable as well (although this is not relevant as a source was found that could be linked to...again, the undercurrent and implication of where the first source for the image was, has likely colored the discussion). The copyright holder is anonymous (or Anonymous).[1]
John254 16:57, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn deletion, without prejudice on whether the image should actually be retained or not. I was not aware of this review, although I have contested the deletion separately at an ANI discussion (permanent link). The issue, as has been correctly observed by several editors above, is that the system should not be gamed to suppress consensus because of a single editor's agenda. Ayla (talk) 15:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:NFCC#10a. Our non-free content criteria are not up for debate here. --uǝʌǝs ʎʇɹnoɟ ʇs(st47) 15:59, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment again. As I clarified on my page (to which Sceptre has decided to conspicuously ignore, uncivilly shout down opposition, and use blatantly misleading speedy deletion tags to game the system--all due to his conflict of interest), works that are explicitly created anonymously are copyrighted--this is clear to most parties I'm sure. As such, for explicitly anonymous works, that anonymous individual (or group) is explicitly the copyright holder (and we don't know who they are any better or worse than any of the many pseudonymous editors of Wikipedia). It's not that we don't know the provenance of the image (cf. some random picture without source on the internet). It was quite obviously created by a member of Anonymous. A little good faith and common sense on that point would be excellent. There's a difference between "we don't know" and "it was deliberate that we not know". If there is to be further discussion on this point, fine. I welcome it. There was no consensus in the discussion, and no irrefutable policy points, and that's why I closed it as such. The discussion was languishing for days. I wonder if it was such an open-and-shut case why no one speedy-closed it as delete before me. If there emerges a consensus that the policy points are irrefutable, then delete the image. But there needs to be a clarification in the NFCC for cases where an explicitly anyonymous copyright holder cannot be identified as the given copyright holder of a given image. IronGargoyle (talk) 16:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The point is, with Wikipedia, we can know who uploaded it (example, we can differentiate between you and I with uploads). With 4chan, you can't. Nearly everyone, especially on /b/, posts as "Anonymous". We don't know which "Anonymous" uploaded it, whether it was 123.45.67.89 or 98.76.124.3. Will ^(talk) 17:26, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and relist - who owns the copyright is unclear, and I'm still not convinced this is a logo. Addhoc (talk) 17:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn this is abserd, and at least the 5th dispute I have seen that is WP:GAME against the Anonymous/Project C (I really can't spell it) that has occured since the wiki creation...Involving editors whos interests in the project are apperant disruption of the articles themselves and a complete contempt of consesus. it also is in direct conflict with the spirit of the rules that are beeing quoted. The Non-Free image rules are created to keep from stealing someones work without giving them credit. If it is imposable to find a spicific individual, and no one will be able to validly claim that it is her/his work, no one has any actual claim on the image (orgonizational or otherwise)...?!?Coffeepusher (talk) 17:22, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Irrelevant. The image has no copyright source given, and will be eligible for WP:CSD#I4 in a week. What? Apparently some administrator unfamiliar with our image copyright policies closed an IfD for this image as no consensus, making it ineligible for speedy. In that case, delete. There is no copyright source given, plain and simple. "It can be obtained from Anonymous" does not a copyright source make. I can "obtain" pictures from Flikr, but that doesn't make Flikr the copyright holder. It is impossible to identify the copyright holder for this image. Administrators should familiarize themselves with our most basic image use guidelines before closing discussions at IfD. ➪HiDrNick! 17:28, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- **Cough** I hardly think that Nv8200p would qualify as unexperienced when it comes to image guidelines. IronGargoyle (talk) 17:51, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment: No. The IfD was closed as keep; the review was closed as no consensus. Given the discussion at the image talk page, I believe HiDrNick was addressing the "inexperienced admin" comment at you, IronGargoyle. Just to clarify. Ayla (talk) 18:00, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Yep, I know perfectly well who he was addressing it to. But if hasty comments with mistakes illustrate that the commenters have failed to examine all the facts and discussion in the case (including my expanded reasoning above), well then that says something about the arguments. I read and re-read the DRV, IfD, and NFCC 10a before closing the discussion, and I stand by my interpretation. IronGargoyle (talk) 18:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Well if people are calling IG an inexperienced admin... I mean, just wow. I don't know what to say about that. JoshuaZ (talk) 18:39, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - I thought the same thing, especially since I'd seen this closure. But, considering that an editor on this thread suggested that Shii should have been banned, I'm not being surprised anymore. Ayla (talk) 18:49, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        First off, I did not say anything about an "inexperienced admin" that people keep brandishing about in quotation marks, so please don't misquote me. I said the closers involved to date were "unfamiliar with our image copyright policies", which a statement I can stand behind given that this image hasn't been deleted already for lacking a source. The basis of confusion here seems to be the idea that "The copyright holder is anonymous (or Anonymous)". This is bogus. Some person, somewhere created this image. It has a copyright and we cannot reproduce it freely. No one is making PD claims here. We do not host unfree images unless we identify the copyright holder on the image description page. Plain and simple. Anonymous (the group) does not hold copyright to the image, the copyright is held by the person who created the image. It's unclear that it's even possible for a nebulous group of people to hold the copyright of image at all; even still, in the absence of clear evidence to the contrary, we have to assume that the copyright to the image is owned by its creator, who cannot possibibly be identified. This is like trying to find the copyright owner of "mustard man" or "special olympics kid running" type images. It's just some crap that someone posted to a forum somewhere, and unless you yourself made the image and can prove it, you shouldn't be uploading it to Wikipedia. The image source (where you found the image) and the image copyright holder (who owns the copyright to the image) are sometimes different things, which is why we have different CSD templates to identify the problems. Until someone identifies the copyright source of this image it cannot be used under our WP:NFCC. ➪HiDrNick! 21:30, 9 March 2008

If the claim that we must identify the copyright holder of all fair use images by his/her real name were actually true, then we would need to delete Image:Anonymous Scientology 9 by David Shankbone.JPG as a non-free content policy violation as well, because it depicts copyrighted posters created by unidentifiable protesters -- indeed the policy violation would be made even more egregious by the fact that David Shankbone has uploaded the image under the GFDL despite the fact that it contains fair use components. For that matter, we would need to delete Image:Nice body art.jpg, because we cannot identify the artist who applied the paint to the model. Extensive wikilawyering over our non-free content policy is likely to lead to highly objectionable fair use enforcement that many contributors will find worthy of the shortcut WP:FU. Instead, I suggest that we recognize that Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy:

Wikipedia is not a moot court, and rules are not the purpose of the community. Instruction creep should be avoided. A perceived procedural error made in posting anything, such as an idea or nomination, is not grounds for invalidating that post. Follow the spirit, not the letter, of any rules, policies and guidelines if you feel they conflict. If the rules prevent you from improving the encyclopedia, you should ignore them. Disagreements should be resolved through consensus-based discussion, rather than through tightly sticking to rules and procedures.

John254 22:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The problem, of course, with the unilateral deletion of this image is not so much that it was procedurally bad, as that it was done in blatant disregard for consensus. After the image was retained as a result of an IFD discussion and the prior deletion review, to unilaterally seek the speedy deletion of the image without so much as notifying IronGargoyle, the administrator who closed the prior DRV discussion, is downright insulting to IronGargoyle, and, more generally, to the community as a whole, whose wishes were thwarted. John254 22:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well said, John254, I agree perfectly. Ayla (talk) 22:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete unless clear, unambiguous information on the source and license can be found, which I seriously doubt it will be. This is a free-content encyclopedia. krimpet✽ 17:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[2] is the source of the image. While the image is not freely licensed, the argument that the image must therefore be deleted to protect Wikipedia's status as a free-content encyclopedia proves too much: the deletion of any fair use image could be justified on these grounds, as fair use images are, by definition, not licensed for Wikipedia's use. Since, per our current fair use policy and guidelines, at least some fair use images are acceptable, the proper response to a disagreement with all fair use images would be to discuss an amendment to the policy, not to seek to delete any fair use image which lacks "clear, unambiguous information on the... license". John254 21:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete for the same reason I stated in the first IfD, which was improperly closed. No obtainable source. HiDrNick pretty well explains it. Lara❤Love 17:41, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the source of this image is [3]. John254 21:09, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:NFCC criteria 1 (if it illustrates a concept related to the group and not a logo, a free equivelent may be produced), criteria 8 (the image does not add significanty to the article, promotional material of this sort doesn't really help the reader understand the group), criteria 10a (no source is given and the source is not likely to be found), criteria 4 (no evidence that the image has been legally published outside of Wikipedia). Guest9999 (talk) 21:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The image is irreplaceable, as it is necessary to describe the type of propaganda employed by Anonymous. To quote from the image caption, the image depicts

A satirical motivational poster, displaying a tagline highlighting the pervasive black comedy of the Anonymous subculture:
"Anonymous: Because none of us are as cruel as all of us".

Any free alternative produced by Wikipedia contributors in an attempt to represent this phenomenon would necessarily be inauthentic. Furthermore, [4] provides evidence of both legal publication outside of Wikipedia and of the source of the image. John254 21:33, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Explain how it passes criteria 4 and 10a, then. Will ^(talk) 23:08, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Asked and answered -- please see my comments above. John254 00:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. This demotivator pretty much perfectly describes the personality of the *chan boards.Stormfin (talk) 23:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Working Class Rock Star (film)

Listed on official wire services - Yahoo!, New York Times, Variety, Fancast - links available - http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/452606/Working-Class-Rock-Star/overview, http://www.variety.com/index.asp?layout=chart_film_prod_d&dept=Film&recordid=1117786664, http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1809990129/info, http://www.fancast.com/movies/Working-Class-Rock-Star/141279/main, trailer/one sheet available on homepage - www.workingclassrockstar.com clearly prove existence - release date pending, but in 2008 Unstableground 18:20, 8 March 2008

@@ Line 48: / Line 48: @@
 :The image is irreplaceable, as it is necessary to describe the type of propaganda employed by [[Anonymous (group)|Anonymous]].  To quote from the image caption, the image depicts <blockquote>A satirical [[motivational poster]], displaying a tagline highlighting the pervasive [[black comedy]] of the ''Anonymous'' [[subculture]]:<br> "Anonymous: Because none of us are as cruel as all of us".</blockquote>Any free alternative produced by Wikipedia contributors in an attempt to represent this phenomenon would necessarily be inauthentic.  Furthermore, [http://4chanarchive.org/images/52886416/1202111261483.jpg] provides evidence of both legal publication outside of Wikipedia and of the source of the image. [[User:John254|John254]] 21:33, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 ::Explain how it passes criteria 4 and 10a, then. '''[[User:Sceptre|Will]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 23:08, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
+:::Asked and answered -- please see my comments above. [[User:John254|John254]] 00:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 Keep. This demotivator pretty much perfectly describes the personality of the *chan boards.[[User:Stormfin|Stormfin]] ([[User talk:Stormfin|talk]]) 23:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)