Talk:Moon landing conspiracy theories

Introduction

Is just me or the introduction in wikipedia in spanish is better than the actual:

Las acusaciones de falsificación en los alunizajes del Programa Apolo constituyen una teoría de conspiración que afirma que los alunizajes del programa Apolo jamás ocurrieron, sino que fueron falsificados por la NASA. Prácticamente todos los científicos, técnicos e interesados en la historia de la exploración espacial han rechazado estas afirmaciones calificándolas de infundadas y de no poseer carácter científico alguno [1] . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.51.175.73 (talk) 18:45, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Apollo hoax in popular culture and parody

The section "Apollo hoax in popular culture and parody" is causing so many problems that I think we should either delete it or move it to its own article. Bubba73 (talk), 04:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, this has come up before. Now 10 days or so with no objections, so I moved it to Apollo hoax in popular culture and parody. My reasons (1) Several complaints about the article being too long, and this is a good way to reduce the size somewhat, (2) adds essentially nothing to the article. Bubba73 (talk), 02:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Title Change

I think this would be appropriate. As the title is, "Apollo Moon Landing hoax accusations," it leads you to believe the article is about hoax accusations and the people who are/have made them. Instead it's seems to be more of a line-by-line dismissal of those accusations. It's one of the most biased articles I've seen on Wikipedia. It's really no wonder that the pro-hoaxters have all but abandoned it. This article treats their point of view so poorly that it completely misses the point of the title. If I'm looking for "Apollo Moon Hoax Accusations" (just the word "Accusation" clues the reader that the article is probably going to be dismissive or excessively critical of the subject... "Apollo Hoax Conspiracy" would be more neutral), I'm interested in those accusations. I know it's a minority perspective, but that's exactly why I'm reading it. At that point, I'm not interested in "Responses to Apollo Moon Landing Hoax Accusations" or "Evidence Debunking Moon Landing Hoax". Those responses should either be given it's own article or at the very least, a separate section. Wikipedia isn't a soapbox. It's a source of information. If I'm reading, "History of Medicine," I'm not looking for a line-by-line essay on why why medications don't work or why modern medicine is flawed. If it's "Astronomy in Ancient Mesopotamia," I'm not looking for a article detailing why ancient astronomers were wrong about the way the universe works.

In reading through the article, I think a more appropriate title would be something like, "Why I think Anyone Who Doesn't Believe We Landed On The Moon Is An Idiot", because that's exactly what this article conveys. In reality it should be completely rewritten. This article is seething with contempt. You're writing about someone else's reasoning and understanding. Be respectful. You may not agree, but you've taken on the responsibility to describe their perspective. Ynpragne (talk) 03:37, 31 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ynpragne (talk • contribs) 03:32, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree. "theories" would be more neutral than the hostile "accusations". ʄ!•¿talk? 08:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

By the way can an admin or somebody change the capital letters in "Moon" & "Landing" to lower case?
It doesn't look right, thanks. ʄ!•¿talk? 08:46, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I think we tried conspiracy theory in the title, but people objected. Bubba73 (talk), 14:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Moon is supposed to be capitalized when talking about Earth's Moon. Bubba73 (talk), 15:16, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

At present, the article is still quite biased against Nasa. At present it has a "motives for a hoax" speculating hypothetical reasons why Nasa would want to have a hoax, but there is no corresponding "Motives to claim a hoax" section questioning the motives of those who insist that a hoax has happened. Algr (talk) 07:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, Ynpragne, a person must be an idiot to believe the Moon landing was faked. All points made by any person who believes it have been disproved with evidence and logic. No one in their right mind could possible believe the Moon landing was faked after they look at the facts. The reason people do believe it is the horribly biased and fact-smeared FOX special on the conspiracy theory. So-called "experts" were called it to support "evidence" of the "hoax." It was so smeared, I could see that any person who believes what they see on T.V. as fact could believe it, but no one should. This article shows the reasons people "believe" the hoax and then disproves them with facts, evidence, and logic. Not biased, at least in that respect. It is biased against NASA in the respect that Algr notes.PokeHomsar (talk) 01:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

"Well, Ynpragne, a person must be an idiot to believe the Moon landing was faked. All points made by any person who believes it have been disproved with evidence and logic." I'm not sure how to even respond (although I'm the one who threw in the word, "idiot"... so I was asking for that). It's obvious that some people have questions and those questions haven't been answered to their satifaction. Disproved with evidence and logic? To your satifaction perhaps, to someone else there might never be enough evidence to convince them... and it certainly isn't going to happen on Wikipedia and Wikipedia really isn't the place for it. Anyway there is far too much material in this article who singular purpose seems to be to prove, not that the moon land wasn't a hoax, but that all of those who believe it aren't in their right minds.

Example: "The Apollo Moon landing hoax accusations have been the subject of debunking and, according to the debunkers, have been falsified. An article in the German magazine Der Spiegel places the Moon hoax in the context of other well-known 20th century conspiracy theories which it describes as "the rarefied atmosphere of those myths in which Elvis is alive, John F. Kennedy fell victim to a conspiracy involving the Mafia and secret service agents, the Moon landing was staged in the Nevada desert, and Princess Diana was murdered by the British intelligence services."[23]"

First of all, in the first sentence, is it saying that the debunkers are saying the "accusations" were falsified? That doesn't really make any sense. Maybe the evidence presented was falsified, but the accusations? Immediately after this is a quotation from an opinion piece from a magazine comparing the moon hoax theory to a number of other conspiracy theories. Why is this here, except to invalidate this perspective without any evidence. To put in in context? It could have just as easily compared the hoax theory to flat earth theory (which I'm sure many hoax proponents wouldn't agree with) or instead it could have been compared to the Gulf of Tonkin conspiracy (which has all but been proven to be valid). Ynpragne (talk) 21:57, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Americans believe we made it to the moon. There has been no new evidence or amazing break throughs that shatter NASAs hoax nor do they prove that the moon landing was fake. In fact there is no evidence at all that the moon landing is fake. What there is are a small group of people picking apart the real evidence. Look its pretty clear that we went there, we got the proof, and in a court of law it would be enough. People from other countries on the other hand should know just from reading the title that Americans don’t take the hoaxes to seriously. It should be clear that it’s a hoax, that’s what the evidence says and so I humbly ask that the title be kept the same. Anything is possible, but you have to look at the facts. I think its important to show others who may not have resources that we have, or the education, lets just make it clear. Not a hoax. Xxsicknessxx (talk) 01:41, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the first post here. This article is biased, and is mistitled. I came here looking for what the hoax theories are, not the rebuttal of those theories. The rebuttals really need their own article. -Greg K 4/1/2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.205.21.129 (talk) 03:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The title was changed recently. The hoax theories are in there. To make the rebuttals a separate article is not appropriate because it would be a POV fork. Bubba73 (talk), 03:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

There's currently an ARBCOM case about the use of the term "conspiracy theory" in article titles (here). That would have an impact on this article as well, so I strongly oppose any name change until at least after that ARBCOM closes. -- Kesh (talk) 10:18, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I didn't know about that. At one time "conspiracy theory" was proposed to be in the title. Now it just says "theory". Bubba73 (talk), 14:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Gus Grisson's Death

I was shocked at the obvious bias present in this article and it has considerable lowered my opinion of neutrality and integrity of Wickipedia. This article gives disproportionate attention to debunking and reads as a soap box with an agenda. It is a really shameful way to get a one sided view across and should be corrected as soon as possible. I came to this section to find out about the claimed murders of the Apollo One Astronauts and was surprised by the fact that Gus Grissom's family view is not even mentioned. Nick Mollo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.49.75.15 (talk) 18:28, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

See the section "Deaths of key Apollo personnel". Bubba73 (talk), 18:32, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

This is to do with the whole article not just a section of it. It should be re-written with neutrality. Shameful! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nmollo (talk • contribs) 18:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

One of the basic tenants of Wikipedia is that it uses reliable sources, see WP:WS. There are no reliable sources saying that the crew of Apollo 1 was murdered. Bubba73 (talk), 19:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It is not a blog. It is not a personal website. It is not an internet newsgroup. Bubba73 (talk), 20:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Judging by this article Wikipedia has failed to meet those tenants. As for specifics I came to this article to find out what the theories concerning the Apollo missions and reliable sources have nothing to do with the Wife and Son of Gus Grissom claiming he was murdered. It is their view and a fact. I came to this article for views and opinions that cannot be justified by reliable sources. I did not expect a lengthy debunking exercise and this piece certainly not balanced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nmollo (talk • contribs) 20:23, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, look at the Gus Grissom and Apollo 1 articles. If there is anything to it, it will be in those articles. Bubba73 (talk), 20:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

This will be my last comment on this poor article. As for the other articles concerning Gus Grissom, no mention is made of the families opinions concerning his death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nmollo (talk • contribs) 20:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, this is the first time I've heard of it. With no source for that claim, we can't include it. -- Kesh (talk) 20:40, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

They have been interviewed many times in print and Television saying as much. I am surprised you would not know this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nmollo (talk • contribs) 20:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

In that case, can you provide some sources to these interviews so the rest of us can read for ourselves what was said? -- Kesh (talk) 15:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I have heard of this. But from what I recall the family's claims were more along the lines of accusing NASA of criminal negligence in placing Grissom in a dangerous capsule. They may have even used the word "murdered" in the heat of the moment. This has subsequently been lifted out of context to create claims that he was killed as part of "the conspiracy". But I believe this to be a total misrepresentation of the family's opinions, which are unrelated to this article. Of course, if there's any reliable cites that say differently... --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 16:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Film reference

At the end of the film In the Shadow of the Moon, one of the astronauts (Collins or Aldrin, I think) refers briefly to the hoax theories by saying, in effect, "if we were going to fake it, why would we fake it six times?" I don't have a copy of the film available, so I don't have a full reference or an exact quote; if someone else could provide that, this should be in the article. (My own addendum to that would be, "and why would they fake a failed mission"? I note that there is no mention of Apollo 13 anywhere in this article.) --Russ (talk) 17:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The DVD is to be released Feb 12, 2008 in the US, and I'll probably buy I've ordered a copy. It has great reviews on Amazon. I've heard the quote about faking it six times, but I don't have a reference. This should provide one. But the reason they faked a failed mission is that if they had seven missions go perfectly, that would look suspicious, so they put in a failed one to make it seem genuine.  :-) But I wonder about Apollo 8 and 10, where they also just (susposedly) flew around the Moon without landing - were they fake too? Bubba73 (talk), 18:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I have a better theory: Apollo 11 and 12 (both in 1969) were faked to meet president Kennedy's goal of doing it before the end of 1969, and they couldn't do it for real yet. Apollo 13 (April 1970) was the first real attempt, but it failed. It almost got the astronauts killed, so they faked the rest of them. Yea, that's the ticket. :-> Bubba73 (talk), 20:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The DVD release has been put off until March 15. Bubba73 (talk), 22:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Charlie Duke says "We've been to the moon nine times. Why did we fake it nine times, if we faked it?" Bubba73 (talk), 21:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Archive?

What happened tothe archive here at talk? 65.26.54.207 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:47, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know - they are all red-linked now! Bubba73 (talk), 19:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

The page recently was renamed from Apollo Moon Landing hoax accusations, and the archived talk must have gotten left behind. I don't know how to get it back. Bubba73 (talk), 19:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Just stumbled across this page. I can fix it, it'll just take a few minutes… -- Kesh (talk) 16:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Archives are fixed. I've also taken the liberty of archiving some more old discussions to a new archive, and cleaning up the ArchiveBox a bit. I'd like to go back and rename the links to actual dates, but not sure if I'll have the time today. -- Kesh (talk) 17:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Whew! Okay, I think that'll do it. Please let me know if anyone finds any problems, but I think the archives are sorted out now. -- Kesh (talk) 17:44, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I didn't know how to do it. Bubba73 (talk), 20:49, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Anyone care to answer this one? (alleged evidence re: ATS-3 photos)

Needless to say, the fact that there were unmanned satellites at geostationary orbit taking photos of the Earth as early as 1967 doesn't prove anything about whether the Apollo Program was faked, but I'm genuinely curious-- where's this guy getting his information?

This one was taken from Apollo 16 (although this guy disputes that claim) http://photobucket.com/mediadetail/?media=http%3A%2F%2Fi160.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft173%2FMichaelstmark%2FA1aboEARTHFORWINDOWDEMO.jpg&searchTerm=michael%20stmark&pageOffset=0

Here's another site that has some pictures from the mentioned satellite: http://www.donaldedavis.com/2003NEW/NEWSTUFF/DDEARTH.html

18.202.1.65 (talk) 04:24, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

This page is for discussing changes to the article, not for general questions about the topic (see the top of this page). But look on my talk page. Bubba73 (talk), 04:48, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Minor Change

"Theories" in the title should be capitalized as in is the last word of the title and is grammatically incorrect at the present. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpc100 (talk • contribs) 02:32, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't match with our naming conventions. -- Kesh (talk) 02:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Right. And "Landing" probably should not be caps either. Bubba73 (talk), 02:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Order of contents

Number 5 (hoax claims examined) should really be at number 3 on the page. It's what most people (myself included) would be coming to the page for. Most importantly it makes no sense to have the critiques presented before the actual theories themselves. It's like discussing the effects of some event before describing the event itself, or describing all the covers of Let it be before describing the original. Kansaikiwi (talk) 08:24, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the idea was to take the article from the more general to the specific, as the examined section is long and detailed. It shows up in the table of contents, so it's not difficult for someone to find. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 08:32, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough but is logical order not more important than small before big around here? Seems an odd rule to go by that's all. Kansaikiwi (talk) 02:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

First they are defining what the hoax claim is and what it's about in general, before they get to the specific minutia. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Changed title

This is not an article about "theories" in the mean sense (see WP:WTA#Theory) but it is an article about the conspiracy theories of the moonbats. So I moved the article to a better title.— Preceding unsigned comment added by ScienceApologist (talk • contribs) 13:39, May 15, 2008 (UTC)

That WP:WTA#Theory is a great description of what a scientific theory is. "Science is just a theory." :-) Bubba73 (talk), 17:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The title should conform to whatever the standard is (if any) for other wikipedia articles about conspiracy theories, such as JFK, 9/11, and so on. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

9/11 conspiracy theories, Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories. I just moved the latter to conform to the standard. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:25, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Just see if anyone objects. Bubba73, a major contributor to this page, retitled the opening paragraph to match the article title, so I think that implies acceptance. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I naturally accept it. I'm pretty sure it was titled this once before, but believers in the conspiracy theories objected to it being called a conspiracy theory. I believe that both user:Carfiend and user:Gravitor have been banned. Bubba73 (talk), 15:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

And user:For great justice. is gone (his talk page is still there). Bubba73 (talk), 15:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I forgot about FGJ. Yes, all three of them were banished into the Wikipedia Phantom Zone. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 16:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) It looks like the archived talk pages did not get moved. Bubba73 (talk), 17:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll get those fixed later tonight, can't really work on it right now. Still surprised no objections have been raised yet about the name change. Maybe the regulars are in later time zones or something... -- Kesh (talk) 19:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

For some strange reason, the primary pro-hoax editors all left WP or got banned (must be part of the conspiracy to shut them up). For many months there has only been an occaisional pro-hoax edit, usually vandalism. Bubba73 (talk), 19:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe they got tired of being outwitted at every turn. I say again, this is the most neutral article on this subject that I've seen. It doesn't attack anybody, it just systematically destroys the so-called "evidence" for a conspiracy. And the reader is free to believe or not believe the debunking. Speaking of which, someone slipped the word "attempted" in front of debunking a few minutes ago. Whatever. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Archives are fixed. -- Kesh (talk) 01:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Polls

Alot of space is given to polls that is really irrelavent. Numbers can tell many different stories, but these polls do not get us anywhere closer to the truth. What someone believes and what actually happened are two very different things. The polls only verify a belief and get us no closer to discovering the truth of whether or not man landed on the moon on July 20, 1969. This section could be pared down or even eliminated without changing the article's meaning or intent.208.254.130.235 (talk) 18:28, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the poll results are very important to the article. They do tell us what the American people believe on the subject. Bubba73 (talk), 18:56, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The polls are part of the reason the article exists. If only 7 people believed the flights were a hoax, there would be no need nor justification for having the article. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Unless the 7 people were right, then the polls wouldn't mean squat. Polls are manipulative. If I were to poll 1700 people in Clear Lake, Tx in 1969 the answer would have been close to 100% belief that we made it. Also, the location of the poll plays a significant role in determining its outcome. Percentages run to 100 which minimizes their true value when weighed against the actual figures they were derived from. The 6% quoted doesn't sound like a lot, but break it down and you will find that 6% of the US population is the populations of NY City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston and Dallas. A "measly" 6%. Imagine 30%.208.242.58.125 (talk) 22:39, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

The purpose of the polls is to illustrate in part that there is some notable interest in the topic. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 22:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Religion motives

I remember one poll on TV Station Sarajevo, Yugoslavia. The reporter asked one women "Did any man visited the moon?". She answered "No, it was attempt to convince us that there is no God. No man can approach the God". I have seen also one letter in mystical newspaper "Tajne" published in Belgrade in 1987 where the author accused Satan for making people to believe that the mankind left the Earth. I think that such opinion is actually very wide, probably the most common motive for the hoax accusation, however, it is hard to add it to the list of suggested hoax motives, without violating NPOV or taking non-reliable sources. (I tried it in October 4th 2007, without success) Anyway, the whole topic is about speculation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.65.173.212 (talk) 20:47, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources are required, and it's true that there is no shortage of ignorance in the world. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 20:52, 17 May 2008 (UTC)