Talk:Ctrl+Alt+Del (webcomic)

Miscarriage funny?

Some people on the internet are joking around and photoshoping the comic and they are quite funny. Is this worth putting down? I mean the miscarriage comic was the funniest one he ever drawn. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.226.78.99 (talk) 05:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Not really notable. Q ^{T C} 05:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Also not really funny. JuJube (talk) 05:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

It was pretty damn funny, I think Buckley deserves appreciation of some kind.121.220.69.5 (talk) 13:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't seem particularly notable or funny. Chan Yin Keen | Talk 13:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Extremely funny, yet not notable. JuJube, 121.220.69.5, let's try to keep on topic and limit our discussion to that which directly pertains to the article. Every Dog's Day (talk) 05:21, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The latest Cyanide and Happiness comic was a direct parody of the miscarriage comic, and featured a direct quote from Tim Buckley. Perhaps this one is notable, and could be added to the article. --Jedravent (talk) 15:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Is it also notable that after that comic was made the word "explosm" was censored of the Ctrl Alt Del forums to prevent linking to Cyanide and Happiness? Ctrl Alt Del forums do not normally censor words, not even ones that are not allowed by their rules.(sorry if i did this wrong, i know nothing of wiki) --69.131.87.137 (talk) 08:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You ask me, this page needs a spoiler warning. Coolgamer (talk) 04:03, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

No it doesn't. Artichoker^[talk] 14:09, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

B^U

Has anyone ever noticed all his characters make the B^U face? Perhaps we should mention that. I mean, it's certainly more important than story details. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.162.179.78 (talk) 21:58, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

If you have some reliably sourced information about "'B' to the power of 'U'" being encyclopedically significant to this article, please feel free to add it to the article.

As an aside, when instigating a new section of conversation, you should add it below all previous sections, not at the top. Cheers! — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 22:29, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

VG Cats' recent April Fools' gag had a parody of CAD, entitled "Bee Arrow Up You". So we might have a reliable source for the B^U thing after all. Link --Jedravent (talk) 00:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and this talk page was recently featured on the Something Awful Forums' webcomic thread. This is what my last edit summary made reference to. --Jedravent (talk) 21:51, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

What happen?

Someone set up the bomb or something? Where's the rest of the talk topics? And Thrindel? How is there a discussion here and Thrindel is not part of it?JackorKnave (talk) 01:05, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

If you are talking about the archives, they can be found here and here. Artichoker^[talk] 01:19, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah. Why was it archived? Was the discussion really that long? JackorKnave (talk) 01:20, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes it was long enough for an archive. If you have more questions about archiving, most of them are answered here. Artichoker^[talk] 01:22, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

POV problem with genre listing

This comic is claimed to be part of the "humor" genre. Doesn't this break NPOV by implying that it is actually funny? Wanglordofwangs (talk) 05:44, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

All humor is subjective. While it may be arguable whether or not you personally find the comic funny, there's no 'controversy' or debate as to whether or not the intention of the website is primarily humor. It's a genre listing, not a personal opinion, so no, it does not clash with NPOV.--Thrindel (talk) 20:06, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I didn't realize author intentions determined what genre a work falls into. If he had written a Star Wars rip-off but the intention was to write a hard-hitting detective comic, would we list "mystery" as the genre, rather than fantasy/science fiction? Cyclone231231 (talk) 21:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

If it ended up being a mystery that takes place in a sci-fi setting, I imagine it would be listed under both genres. To use your example though, just because someone figures out the mystery by page two, and they didn't feel there was much of a mystery in the story, doesn't mean it wouldn't be listed under the mystery genre. They may not consider it a good mystery, but then that sort of distinction is where you start getting into POV issues.--Thrindel (talk) 22:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that's what they mean, Thrindel. This hypothetical comic wouldn't be a mystery at all, there'd be nothing to show it's a mystery, because it isn't, so why should it be listed as a mystery comic then? I could make a comic and say it's an homage to the Godfather movies, when it's actually about a dancing banana, so what would it be listed as? 121.220.69.5 (talk) 05:35, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

If there was nothing to show that it was a mystery, then no, I doubt that it would be classified as such. However that example doesn't really draw a parallel to this situation. Barring it's current story, there is an awful lot of material there that seems obviously intended as humor. It's pretty clear that he's not trying to draw a humor strip and coming up with an action title, or whatever. There are a lot of articles on Wikipedia with the 'humor' genre. I don't think "is funny to everyone" is a prerequisite for the listing.

It's hardly an important detail of the article, but it seems odd to me to suggest its removal when so many other webcomics articles share the same genre tag. If I may ask, what do you feel makes this article the exception, and what would you suggest the listed genres be?--Thrindel (talk) 06:01, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

This argument is pathetic and pointy. By this logic, the "humor" category should be taken off every webcomic ever, because you'll always find one jerkoff who thinks it isn't funny. JuJube (talk) 07:01, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

This argument is pointy? THAT argument is pointy, good sir! Quoth WP:POINT: "For example, the contributor may apply the decision to other issues in a way that mirrors the policy they oppose." Sound like anything you might know about? "Wikipedia, it is inconsistent," also a quote from WP:POINT Cyclone231231 (talk) 17:34, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

You are using WP:POINT to justify breaking WP:POINT. Hilarious. How about addressing the issue at hand - that removing th "humor" category from Ctrl+Alt+Del because some people don't think it's funny is ridiculous? JuJube (talk) 18:22, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Does ANYONE think it's funny? 137.222.214.63 (talk) 19:29, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

If you are talking about the comic, sure, I find some parts of it humorous. Artichoker^[talk] 19:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, enough people do for the merchandising to be profitable. You people need to stop being snarky, get whatever problems you have with the author dealt with, stop trying to use Wikipedia to kick up shit and get back to actually making an encyclopedia. JuJube (talk) 22:33, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

To be completely honest, webcomics have no place at all in an encyclopedia. This is about as worthwhile of an article (as are all other webcomic articles, for that matter) as a theoretical article on how I spent, say, January 29th, 2001. "Actually making an encyclopedia" would be nominating this for deletion. GoatDoomOcculta (talk) 07:35, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Not so, as this webcomic is notable because it has third party sources. Artichoker^[talk] 12:26, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Just because something has a third party source, or even sources, does not mean that it belongs in an encyclopedia. Referring back to the theoretical article about how I spent January 29th, 2001, what if I had held up a gas station that day, dressed in a chicken suit, and a half dozen local TV stations and/or newspapers had articles on my robbery - would that belong in an encyclopedia? By your logic it would, but obviously, it does not, and neither does this nor probably any other webcomic article. As for the alleged third-party sources for this article, out of 23 references, a whopping 7 of those are third-party. 2 are from insignificant local newspapers, another 2 are referring to the same exact thing - a couple of unimportant comics Buckley did for Civilization ("In 2007, Ctrl+Alt+Del partnered with 2K Games/Firaxis Games to produce a series of comics for Sid Meier's Civilization Daydreams [21][22][23]"). Even the quote is inaccurate - CAD did not partner with these companies, Buckley did, and just because something is relevant to the author does not mean that it belongs in his comic's article. Hell, it wasn't even a "partnership", it was more like "Hey, draw us some comics", and that was that. There's nothing even close to a "partnering" there. And, again, it's not even relevant to CAD, and yet 40% of the third-party sources for this article are for that line alone - and it's not even about the damn comic!

Speaking of irrelevant lines that have nothing to do with the comic, but rather, the author (who - no, does not warrant his own Wikipedia entry), how about these two here? "There was an interview with Tim Buckley on CBSNews.com.[14]" and "In October of 2006, Tim Buckley gave a lecture at the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute[15][16] in Troy, New York." I fail to see how an interview with Buckley on CBSNews.com is at all pertinent to an encyclopedia entry on CAD. As for the second quote - further irrelevance about Buckley, rather than CAD. Both of these lines should be removed due to their worthlessness and utter irrelevance to the intended subject of this Wikipedia entry.

Upon removal of these completely irrelevant lines, you'll see that CAD is in fact about as notable as my theoretical January 29th, 2001 - and as unimportant to an encyclopedia. The only third-party sources available for this relate to Buckley himself, rather than CAD, and one of them is as insignificant as a campus newspaper - is that even allowed to be called a notable third-party source?!

Summary: This is not notable at all. The only "third-party sources" were added in a desperate attempt to make it seem so, and they are all relating to Buckley, rather than CAD. These irrelevant lines need to be removed, and consequently, the references associated with them, and then, seeing as this subject is not even slightly notable, let's nominate it for deletion, shall we? GoatDoomOcculta (talk) 15:13, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Just a comment that this webcomic is nationally known, whereas your January 292001 incident would not be. I actually agree that most of these sources are either irrelevant to the topic, or non-notable; and I could see this failing an AfD. Artichoker^[talk] 15:18, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Nitpicking a bit, two of my best friends and my ex were arrested in September last year (Vanessa Waisbrot, Candace Basaker, James Riley) for robbing a Sunoco dressed as ninjas and then trying to flee to California days later. This was on major news websites (moreso than CAD and Buckley have ever been) as well as countless local news stations in Pittsburgh and Kentucky (where they were apprehended). Vanessa and James were even on America's Most Wanted, and are still on the show's online database as CAPTURED. However, if someone were to write a Wikipedia entry for them, individually or collectively, I guarantee it would be deleted about as fast as it was put up, despite them being far more notable than CAD and Buckley, by Wikipedia's definition of notability.

Regardless, since you agree that the third-party references are largely (read: entirely) irrelevant to the intended subject of this article, would anyone besides Thrindel be opposed to be removing them, and nominating this for deletion? GoatDoomOcculta (talk) 19:13, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually if all of the details you have given are true, I see no reason why the article wouldn't stay. With significant sources and coverage, as well as being on the FBI's most wanted warrant an article.

I'm not opposed to your nomination for deletion; I would probably vote weak delete in it anyways. Artichoker^[talk] 19:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll write an article about them, then. That should be fun and I'm sure James will be thrilled when he gets out of prison. I never thought to do that. Haha.

I'll also delete the irrelevant information and sources in the CAD article. How do I nominate it for deletion, though? GoatDoomOcculta (talk) 20:14, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:AFD gives you a step-by-step process for putting an article up for deletion. If you have any further questions about this, feel free to contact me on my talk page. Artichoker^[talk] 20:16, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to restate some points I made during a very similar discussion [1] that is now archived, since you're bringing op the exact same points.

I want to preface this by saying that if you really feel this article will pass deletion (and really feel it needs to be deleted), then by all means, list it for such. It's not something I'll support personally, as I feel it's a little drastic, however if some neutral administrators look at the article and decide it should be deleted, I have no problem with that.

While this article does contain quite a few sources from the website itself (although still not nearly as many as the VGCats article, which is nearly 90% so), the WP:SELFPUB states that self-published sources may be used in articles about themselves (which would be the case here, using the website as a source for the article about the website) so long as they meet a list of requirements.

Most of the requirements are a non-issue with the sources in this article. They don't refer to third parties, there is no reasonable doubt as to the author, etc. The biggest question mark about them as I see it would be whether or they are relevant to the notability of the article. Now obviously some of these are strictly information-based sources, such as "Ethan is of Irish Descent". That's proving information in the article more than it is trying to say that that particular tidbit of info is notable.

Some of the other references, though, are (I believe) speaking to notability, or combined with other third party sources (such as the lecture mention on the school website, plus Buckley's newspost on the topic) to build a better overall picture of a particular note.

My argument would be that, were the comic not notable or cared about in any sense at all, as you are suggesting, I can't see its author being asked to speak at a college, or being interviewed by CBSNews.com, or hired by a video game company to do promotional comic work for a game. It wouldn't be so much that those Civilization comics themselves are notable, but more that CtrlAltDel and its creator are notable enough that, when the game developer goes looking for webcomics to hire, of the possibly millions of webcomics that are online, CtrlAltDel is one of those they approached. And I don't think that would be the case, (the hiring, the lecture, the CBS interview, etc) were the comic not notable and known outside of its direct fanbase.

"Even the quote is inaccurate - CAD did not partner with these companies, Buckley did, and just because something is relevant to the author does not mean that it belongs in his comic's article." Buckley is CtrlAltDel. As far as I know, he's the only one that works on it, and it's the only thing he's notable for, which is why he doesn't have his own article. And if you look at the Civilization comics, they are clearly done in the same style and format, and posted on the CtrlAltDel website, and if you look at the third party reference, they clearly state that they've contracted/hired/whatever the artists of well-known webcomics. What Buckley did on January 29th, 2001 would not be of importance to a CtrlAltDel article just because he's the artist of the comic, but comic work, interviews, lectures that he is asked to do because the comic is well-known is relevant to the article, and the notability of the article.

When this article was bloated and full of references from all over the place (the 1up.com article mention, interviews, etc) it was too big and fansite-ish. Now that it's been pruned back, it "doesn't have enough sources". I fully agree that this article should be trim, and doesn't require all of the bloat it had months ago (the episode recaps, lengthy character bios, etc). But I think there's plenty there for the article to pass a notability test, especially compared to some other webcomic articles that remain untouched.

If you really want to go try and get every webcomic article on Wikipedia deleted for the reasons you stated, then by all means, knock yourself out. But don't gut an article of decent sources just to achieve that goal. Take it to AfD as it is, and let the administrators decide if the sources are notable. I'll also point out that the editor who originally suggested the article for deletion, upon seeing the listing of new sources, has changed his mind.--Thrindel (talk) 20:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I've also added another third party source to the article.--Thrindel (talk) 21:16, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Thrindel, Thrindel, Thrindel... I'm certainly not going to respond point-by-point to that massive wall of text, but I will touch on a few things and then carry on with the trimming and deletion process. First, the issue here is not the VGCats article. Once this passes for deletion, feel free to target the VGCats one to prove your WP:POINT, I honestly don't care.

My issue is not with the large number of sources that are simply CAD or another Buckley-thing, but rather, the small number that aren't. If there were a substantial number of relevant, worthwhile, and notable third-party sources, then the first-party ones would be perfectly fine. The fact of the matter is, though, that there just aren't.

Buckley (who is clearly not you) was asked to speak at a single, insignificant college - that doesn't make his comic notable. He probably asked to speak there, or a high-ranking faculty member there was a fan of CAD. Same goes for the Civilization comics. Did Buckley even get paid for those? - you said he was hired. And again, that's not the point - that makes the author notable, not the comic itself. If you want to make a Buckley article then go for it, but I'm pretty sure you'd take considerable issue with the whole ROM incident inevitably being in there.

As for the author's deeds being irrelevant to his or her work(s) in an encyclopedia article on that work, take a look at The Wheel Of Time, or American Psycho, or the Mona Lisa - do you see irrelevant information about Robert Jordan, Brett Easton ellis, or da Vinci in those articles? Of course not, because they're articles on those works, and not the men behind them.

"When this article was bloated and full of references from all over the place (the 1up.com article mention, interviews, etc) it was too big and fansite-ish. Now that it's been pruned back, it 'doesn't have enough sources'." -- If the article needs to have notable but irrelevant sources in order to be considered notable, then the subject of the article is clearly not notable, and thus should not exist. This should pass for deletion with relative ease.

Anyway, are campus newspapers considered notable? If so, then I'll go and nominate this right away, but if not, I'd appreciate a non-Thrindel Wikipedian's answer and then I'll go and take that out and then nominate it. Thanks! GoatDoomOcculta (talk) 21:18, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The third-party sources you just added were also in relation to Buckley himself and have next to no relevance to CAD itself. All you're doing is adding even more sugar to the gas tank. GoatDoomOcculta (talk) 21:23, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Why wait to nominate at all? If you really feel the article will pass AfD without these sources, then these sources being there shouldn't prevent it from passing either. If they don't lend notability to the article, that can be decided there, by neutral administrators and we can be done with it. Nominate the article.--Thrindel (talk) 21:26, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree, if you are going to nominate for AFD then you should leave the article as is instead of stripping everything out, seems sorta like stripping the doors off a car before the insurance adjuster sees it, to ensure it is scrapped. Knowledgeum (talk) 21:30, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Pile-on agreement. It wouldn't make sense to scrap and article and then nominate for deletion. Artichoker^[talk] 21:40, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

That makes sense. I'll go do that right now. I have yet to look into the AfD process, and I'm a fairly new Wikipedia editor, but I assume that when I nominate it, I get to write a bit as to why it should be deleted? I feel that neutral administrators, without having the irrelevance explained to them, may simply not notice it and let it slide. GoatDoomOcculta (talk) 21:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

If you have to direct neutral administrators as to why something should be deleted it seems fairly pointless. If they are truely neutral then they should be able ot look at the AFD in context with the article and make thier choice without having to be told one way or another. Knowledgeum (talk) 21:55, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'm heading out for the night. If someone else wants to nominate this tonight, then by all means, do so. Barring that, I'll do it myself tomorrow. Cheers. GoatDoomOcculta (talk) 21:46, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

If you want to waste you time and do it, go ahead. It will be fun to see you with egg on your face. JuJube (talk) 02:01, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

JuJube, Thrindel: let me remind you that this is a talk page intended to help efficiently edit and manage this article. It is not a place to throw insults or defend your interests. As long as he follows the proper procedure, GoatDoomOcculta can nominate this article for deletion. It does no good to sling veiled insults about the "egg on [his] face". Also, Thrindel, you have made the above points numerous times over the course of this discussion page. They have been archived and duly noted. There is no need to reiterate your feelings every time someone tries to edit the article. If you feel it is necessary, just give a short summary or link to one of your prior defenses of CAD. Now, about the article: The references which relate only to Tim Buckley do not belong in this article. Their proponents state that they are needed to establish notability, as they show that Tim Buckley is notable. However, Buckley's notability is of no consequence to that of this article. Winston Churchill was a poet, however, Wikipedia does not have pages for his individual poems because the notability of a person does not make their artistic creations notable. The fact that Buckley spoke at a college should not be used to establish notability for the CAD webcomic. Every Dog's Day (talk) 07:34, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

You've missed the point I was making. None of the references in the article relate "only to Tim Buckley". The only notability Buckley has is directly related to CAD, and that he was invited to speak at a college about the comic strip and because of the comic strip is what pertains to the notability of the comic strip. There are no references attempting to establish Buckley's notability as a separate entity. All mentions and references to Tim Buckley in the article are directly related to his role as the creator of the comic strip that the article pertains to. Your example with Winston Churchill is backwards and inapplicable to this situation. Buckley's notability doesn't make CAD notable. If anything, quite the opposite. To sum up, there is no information about Buckley in the article that is not also about CtrlAltDel. --Thrindel (talk) 08:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Considering it's been over a week without any actual AfD action going on, it sounds like an empty threat just came and went. Chan Yin Keen | ^UT_C 10:12, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Traffic

There is no corresponding evidence to show that the traffic change was caused by a storyline, or any other event in particular. This [2] forum post from Tim offers a possible explanation, and he's right, if you look at Penny Arcade's traffic there is a significant dip as well, so it may just be seasonal, which is hardly notable enough for inclusion into a criticism section.--Thrindel (talk) 20:40, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. However, I am still a little skeptical; for if the trend continues to stay in a downward fashion when school starts again, this information should be re-included. Artichoker^[talk] 20:53, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

That seems reasonable. As long as there's something more to go on. But then that might be "original research", but I guess we can cross that bridge when we come to it.--Thrindel (talk) 20:55, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me? Would you mind explaining what original research you are talking about? If there is graphical evidence showing a significant trend downwards, I would call that verifiable information. Artichoker^[talk] 20:58, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh without a doubt it is verifiable that the traffic dipped. But we don't have any actual evidence as to why the traffic experienced a decline, and short of interviewing ex-readers, it might be left up to assumption as to what caused it. It could be seasonal, it could be the storyline, as I seem to recall he dropped Saturday updates around that time as well, which could also explain a decrease in traffic, don't you think? I'm not saying that the traffic is OR, just that assigning a reason to it may be.--Thrindel (talk) 21:02, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Good point, although just the fact that the site traffic has dropped significantly might warrant mention. But, like you said, we'll cross that bridge when (if) we come to it. Artichoker^[talk] 21:09, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:COIN

Several editors of this page have few, if any, constructive edits on any other page on the wikipedia, despite years-long edit histories. (I'm not counting reverting vandalism seen on the recent changes page.) With this in mind, it would not be overly hasty to suggest bringing this article up on the wikipedia:conflict of interest noticeboard. - 68.79.25.247 (talk) 03:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Criticism

Can someone either beef it up or get rid of it? Seems like everyone these days is desperate to get Yahtzee's opinion on wikipedia. Crazy (talk) 11:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree that the criticism section could be removed, as there is not going to be a lot there. Artichoker^[talk] 13:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's give it a few days, see if anyone can come up with anything more substantial to add to it, and if not, we can remove it.--Thrindel (talk) 15:30, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually the whole section could do with expanding, not deleting. There's lots of criticism of CAD and Buckley out there on the net, Yahtzee is just the tip of the iceberg. I'd very much like to work on it, but the article is protected at the moment. :S --129.67.162.133 (talk) 13:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

You should create an account, and after a few days and some constructive edits, you should be able to edit this page. Artichoker^[talk] 13:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it does seem to ignore the obvious criticism that exists on the internet as a whole. The fact of whether it is deserved or not does not matter, but issues such as the famous 'miscarriage' comic have attracted criticism. 82.38.154.235 (talk) 13:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

If you can find some reliable sources for that criticism, post it here, and I will add it to the article. Artichoker^[talk] 13:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I remember there actually being a longer criticism section involving that the comic was very similar to the comic Penny Arcade which had been around for years already. ... In fact I remember one time even reading a comic of CAD that used the exact same joke PA used a few days earlier. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.191.134 (talk) 18:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I looked it up. It was two sentences and entirely original research, which is probably why it was removed.--Thrindel (talk) 18:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

there's criticism here, http://explosm.net/comics/1310/ and here http://vgcats.com/cadaprilfools/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Razerblader (talk • contribs) 22:47, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

No, those are parodies. The Explosm comic... well I don't even know what that's supposed to be. It's just a panel-by-panel recreation of a CAD comic. The VGCats parody was "all in good fun.--Thrindel (talk) 23:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• The Criticism section must stay, if for no other reason than to have a sourced, non-POV place for it. Buckley has a reputation for brooking no criticism of his work whatsoever on the CAD forums, and backs it up with bans and deletions. Sanitizing this page as well should not be tolerated. DarkAudit (talk) 00:33, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Good point. And I'm pretty sure there is more criticism of CAD out there that would be notable for addition. I'll try to find some. Artichoker^[talk] 00:38, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

(link removed) A somewhat harsh yet vocal source of critism (Swap the @ for a).

Encyclopedia Dramatica and forums are not reliable sources. So they cannot be used. Artichoker^[talk] 01:03, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Artichoker, there has been a discussion on the IP address (is now archived). An administrator weighed in and since there is zero evidence to connect that IP address with Buckley, it doesn't belong here as per BLP (see SGGH's comments partway down the section). Additionally 74.63.84.69, it is not alright to post material that violates WP:BLP "just because it's on the talk page". It needs to be removed regardless of where it is posted. Really, is it at all possible that we can not go through all of this again? Just because there is a criticism section in the article now does not suddenly make all of these "sources" suddenly valid.--Thrindel (talk) 01:24, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

• VALID sources. Certain forums are full of hate for Buckley. That's not criticism, that's venom. Unacceptable. DarkAudit (talk) 03:22, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The Explosm comic uses a direct quotation from Buckley, I forgot to mention that the criticism is under the artists's blogs and comic description. and isn't this (link removed) a valuable source of information, though I see this has been noted before, the problem with finding sources is that he's not popular enough to warrant mainstream media attention, currently only fellow webcomic artists and bloggers are bashing him, and that does not fall under WP standards.Razerblader (talk) 05:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Blogs, forums and personal websites are not proper sources, correct. The webcomic genre as a whole is not notable enough to develop a large pool of mainstream positive or negative press, with only a couple of exceptions. It's why the article is best left as basic information, instead of trying to shoehorn every minority viewpoint in. I've removed the link from your comment, you know why.--Thrindel (talk) 05:17, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me but that's bull. The very nature of this article (Being about a webcomic) means that most of the criticisms are going to come from web related sources such as other webcomics news pages, comics themselves, blogs and that'll be about it. This is the nature of webcomics and I think we should be allowed to use the primary form of webcomic review as a source for this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.166.68.193 (talk) 06:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Have you seen what passes for "criticism" on some of these forums? It's no more acceptable here than Buckley and his minions sanitizing the page. That said, a reliable source needs to be found for the way the CAD forums are run. All we have to go on is anecdotal evidence of the bannings and deletions when buckley is criticized even in the slightest. DarkAudit (talk) 13:43, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I was slightly wrong. They didn't use the same joke a few days later, it was two months later. In both comics someone is talking to an eye from the game Eye of Judgement and it basically insults them mercilessly. It's done a little differently, but in both it's the exact same premise and joke.

    http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/8/24/
    http://cad-comic.com/comic.php?d=20071024

You decide on the originality now. 99.240.191.134 (talk) 17:03, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

No, it is not up to us to decide on stuff like that when determining encyclopedic content.--Thrindel (talk) 17:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

A reason for the possible lack of "sources" (at least on the CAD forums) of criticism may be down to the fact that Tim Buckley bans anyone on his forums, and deletes all traces of negativity, whenever someone dares post a hint of it. It's also notible that the www.cad-forums.com are still down following numerous incidents that accumulated in this manner, only some relating to things about Tim personally. Given that CAD is a gaming related subject, surely the sources of gaming forums can be considered? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.63.84.101 (talk) 18:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Any type of forum is never considered a reliable source, regardless. Artichoker^[talk] 18:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The forums appear to be down for server maintenance [3] (fifth post down, as well as the front page today). Do you have some sort of evidence to the contrary? If not, I would ask you stop assigning your assumptions to things like this, which is the core problem of this whole issue and how these rumors get started. People don't seem to care about looking for facts or evidence to back anything up, they're only interested in the tabloid headlines they come up with for any given situation. It's one thing to debate actual facts here, it's entirely another to have to repeatedly point out the gaping holes in these accusations where facts should be.--Thrindel (talk) 18:22, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The Rapscallions incident is well documented, as is the venom going both ways between Buckley and Kurtz & Straub. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that he *does* take an iron-fisted approach to the CAD forums. Enough to discuss on a talk page, at least. DarkAudit (talk) 19:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I actually have some criticism, but this being semi protected prevents me from editing it in. I'd like somebody to give this article a once over and see if it would be OK (it does have some strong language and is, like all criticism, mostly an opinion), but it is DEFINATLY criticism of CAD. http://badwebcomics.blogspot.com/2007/06/ctrlaltdel.htmlMilskidasith (talk) 18:34, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

That link you provided is a blog, and therefore is not a reliable source. Artichoker^[talk] 18:41, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I still don't get why blogs can't be considered reliable sources for sections that are based on opinion, IE a criticism section. Sure, I wouldn't link to blogs for facts, but it is a section for criticism of the comic, after all. The primary criticisms are going to come from popular blogs and webshows like ZP.Milskidasith (talk) 18:46, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I just found an entire non blog, non encyclopedia dramatica, non forum, non urbandictionary site dedicated to criticizing CAD (similar to Ebaumsworldsucks, which I beleive was actually left in the wikipedia article for ebaumsworld). http://www.cadsucks.com/about.php Milskidasith (talk) 21:30, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Yep, that's a non blog, non forum post, but those arent the only requirements for a valid source. It is still a WP:SPS and not likely WP:NPOV And please refrain from posting any improper sources that contain accusations of illegal activities. The other blog and forum posts may be completely innapropriate sources, but I'm fine with leaving them here so that others know they are innapropriate and not to keep reposting them. However, involving criminal allegations, this is an extremely serious matter, and you need to be absolutely positive that you have verifiable proof before you start throwing that stuff around. And none of this "I heard from someone who heard from someone" stuff comes even close to being good enough.--Thrindel (talk) 21:38, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't quite see how it could possibly break the standards for a neutral point of view. In fact, leaving out criticism of the webcomic, if found, could be considered a non-neutral point of view because it doesn't give representations to both soides of the coin.Milskidasith (talk) 22:36, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

The site you posted will always have a negative point of view of CAD, there for making it NPOV and unreliable, not counting other reasons. However, if we can find some reliable sourcing for criticism of CAD, then it should be added to the article. Artichoker^[talk] 22:42, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

These policies are in place to prevent Wikipedia articles from becoming a mess of "Oh, people don't like this band/tv show/movie/comic/town/city/school/whatever". There is no doubt in my mind that there are people out there that dislike the comic, for any number of various reasons. But it's just not... important to the basic facts of an encyclopedia article. It's not a NPOV violation to leave criticism out of the article if no notable criticisms exist, because the article doesn't feature any form of praise either. We've combed over the language of the article and removed anything that might be considered non-neutral language to one side or the other. There is no "CAD is a comic, and it's so hilarious and loved by many" content in this article. It's just "CAD is a comic." Straight information.

Everyone has an opinion, but in order for their opinion to be notable in a context like this, they have to have some credentials in the field they are critiquing, and they have to be published by third party sources. This is because anyone can say anything they want on the internet, anonymously and practically without fear of reprisals, and that's just not the kind of information that should be in an informative article. It's not enough to just say "these people don't like this thing for this reason", there has to be a reason why that opinion should matter in the scope of the article.

Just as you can find two-handfuls of blogs and forum posts written by people who hate the comic, I don't doubt that we could go out and find just as many by people that love the comic. So by your reasoning, we should throw all of those opinions into the article as well, and then it just becomes a giant mess and we've strayed from the attempt to present some informative facts about a subject.

As I said earlier, that there is a "criticism" heading in the article now is not an invitation to open the floodgates for every Tom Dick and Harry's personal opinions on the subject (Unless Tom Dick and Harry happen to be art critics for magazines or newspapers or whatever, in which case bring on the sources). The source from Zero Punctuation just barely meets requirements by the skin of its teeth, maybe. It could be argued that while Yahtzee is an established critic, he's established as an expert on video game critique, not comics. However let's say for the sake of arguments that he's established as a critic, and though it's video games, CAD falls under it because it's a gaming related strip. Ok good. Next up is the actual criticism video itself, which is fairly vague in any of its criticism on specific subjects. CAD was clearly referenced, but there were a lot of very generic statements in there. It's not like he sat down and made a video directed at CAD. To use an analogy, it's sort of like a food critic saying "Steak is awful when it is cooked well-done", and then adding the critic's statements to a restaurant just because it serves steak. But aaaaanyway...

Barring those two things, we still run into WP:UNDUE. I'm happy to leave the heading there for a while, to see if people come with some more proper sources, but if not, all we're left with is one person's opinion. It may be an opinion shared by many, but if it was a notable opinion shared by many, you probably wouldn't have any trouble coming up with sources. And so, as far as looking at the opinion from a WP:V standpoint goes, we have one person's opinion, which is then a minority viewpoint, which doesn't belong in the article.

These are the reasons why the article hasn't had a criticism section. Not because there are no criticisms of the comic, undeniably there are. It's because the comic isn't notable enough to generate praise or criticisms in the circles of media that would produce nice solid sources. Right now pretty much all we have is a bunch of people saying "I like the comic!" and another bunch saying "I hate the comic", and from a encyclopedic standpoint the response is a big "who cares?".--Thrindel (talk) 04:10, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

• • The problem is, there is enough anecdotal evidence to support the notion that Buckley or his minions watch this page, and remove any whiff of bad press. There is also anecdotal evidence that Buckley or those associated with him have come onto Wikipedia to vandalize pages of other artists who Buckley has disagreements with, like PvP. The bad blood between Buckley and Kurtz & Straub is well known. I may have personal reasons to dislike Buckley (I've never met him myself, but guildmates were involved in the Rapscallions incident), but that does not mean I cannot be objective when it comes to this article. it's important to have this section, and to have it conform to established Wikipedia guidelines. Swinging too far in either direction is bad. Too much hate, and it's vandalism. Removing the section on spurious grounds is also vandalism, as it raises suspicions that the article is bring sanitized again. DarkAudit (talk) 04:41, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I added some of the criticism that I know of, with as best sourcing as I could give. With a little more research I should be able to find non-forum post sources that the CAD fanboys will accept. One major problem is that Wikipedia's sourcing policies do not really apply very well here. Most of the people bringing up these issues are doing so on blogs and forums. KiTA (talk) 21:10, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Could somebody at least fix the Yahtzee reference to note that he talked about a comic named "Bontrol-Bolt-Belete" and not "Bontrol-Bat-Belete?" 75.175.11.251 (talk) 21:16, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how claiming that one IP address that traces to a city with a population of 124,000 people can exactly and verifiably be linked to Tim Buckley. This exact same information was removed and was deemed not verifiable to be included in the article 11 months ago my an administrator. Knowledgeum (talk) 21:29, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Daily Sillies

Tim Buckley is now releasing (almost) daily sillies mostly pertainig to just humor, perhaps they should be included in the article. Knowledgeum (talk) 18:20, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

The Sillies have been going on for a few days, and he mentioned that they might become a permanent addition. We should wait until they are posted on a permanent location. Buckley has stated that he cannot continue to put them on the news feed. Artichoker^[talk] 18:25, 6 July 2008 (UTC)