Talk:The Ashes

CricketCOTF

Votes:

1. Support and very topical this year, jguk 12:19, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
2. Support Would be nice to get this up to featured fairly soon to have it on the Main Page on the first day of the series. Smoddy (Rabbit and pork) 15:46, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
3. Support Tintin1107 18:20, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
4. Support Needs a picture, and the tour details need to be moved to another page. (It makes it too long). The Ashes will make an interesting read.  =Nichalp (talk · contribs)= 19:14, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

NB: This appeared on the page one of the mirror on Monday, September 3 2001:

"In affectionate rembrance of arrogant, penalty-scoring, and downright bloody irritating German football, which died at the Olimpiastadion, Munich, on 1st September, 2001. Deeply unlamented by a large circle of English football fans, RIP.

NB: The body of Oliver Kahn's gloves will be cremated and the ashes taken to England."

---

I wasn't sure about the formatting of the results list so I left it as one long, left justified bullet list. Also, the data is cut and pasted from a BBC site http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/the_ashes/history/2190854.stm I know data like this is in the public domain but did it need to be reformatted to avoid copyright violation? Gest 17:54, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm, it's a pretty minimal formatting. I doubt it'll cause a problem. Although it could use prettying up a bit. I'll give it a go when I get time. dmmaus 22:40, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Wow. I thought I might be going overboard with all those results but it's impressive what you've done with it. One thing though; I called it the Tournament history as a series refers to the matches from one year as opposed to the hundred odd. I sort of prefer series anyway though.Gest 02:00, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well I don't think I've ever heard anyone call it a tournament. I think using "series" to mean all of the series is fair enough, as it can be a plural. And hopefully some other people will fill in details of all the other ones! --dmmaus 03:12, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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The 1989 Ashes series was a notable series as well. People still vividly recall this series some considerable time after it was played.

It was front page news in Australia back in '89.

---

I've changed Melbourne 2002/03 from being a "comfortable" to a "fairly comfortable" five-wicket win, since from what I remember about listening to it on the radio, there always seemed to be a chance - albeit a slim one - that the Australians would fall victim to one of their notorious collapses when chasing small totals. I know what-ifs can be distracting, but if Gilchrist had fallen for nought, for example, and therefore left the Aussies 90/6, the result might have been much closer. Loganberry 22:58, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Improving this article

Some thoughts on what this article should include (some of which is already there, some of which isn't):

• Description of how the Ashes started
• Plum Warner retakes the Ashes (and re-popularises the term)
• A brief summary paragraph of each series - highlights being Bodyline and the 1981 series
• How other sports have borrowed the term
• Picci of the urn
• Piccis of leading figures in Ashes history - some of Bligh, Warner, Jardine, Bradman, Larwood, Botham, Lillee, Alderman, Warne
• The series results - but summarised in a table

jguk 15:09, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

I think the table of results takes up an extraordinary amount of the article, and makes it look quite cluttered. How about creating List of Ashes series to take this away? Smoddy (Rabbit and pork) 09:09, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Good idea, and that list also means we can link from the list to individual series when/if we start to write articles about those. Maybe sectioning the write-up paragraphs into "eras" (i.e. Aussie dominance from 87 till today, Bradman's era of the 30s and 40s) with Bodyline and '81 standing alone? Sam Vimes 12:38, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Suggestion for what the list might look like:

• 1882-83 - Australia 1-2 England (3 Tests)
• 1884 - England 1-0 Australia (3 Tests)
• 1884-85 - Australia 2-3 England (5 Tests)

etc. Sam Vimes 12:58, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

I've modified the headings to make it short and sweet. I feel that the table should be expanded horizontally to have four columns or six columns.  =Nichalp (Talk)= 14:45, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

This sentence doesn't sound correct - "Injuries to Botham and a less professional attitude hampered the English game after the classic 1981 series, and even though they took two series after 1981, the series were all close and could have gone the other way." The 1985 series could have gone only one way. 1986/7 too, while the early impression was that England 'can't bat, can't bowl, can't field', Australia never had a chance in the Tests. Tintin 08:43, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Okay, rewritten now. If you still don't feel it describes it accurately, edit it again. :) Sam Vimes 08:50, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Headings

How about these headings

==The obituary== (can be renamed)
==Notable series == 
 ===First quest ===
 ===Bodyline===
 ===The invincibles===
 ===Botham's Ashes ===
 === 2003 in Australia === (should be renamed)
==The trophy==
==The Ashes today== (a mention of how the series is viewed today by England, Australia, other test nations and the world media)
==Misc==
==Trivia==
==See also==
==External links==
==References==

 =Nichalp (Talk)= 14:56, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

I think we should have a section on Plum Warner's tour of 1903/4. It was the first under the auspices of the MCC, and it repopularised the Ashes myth thanks to his book How We Recovered The Ashes. We should also have a section on how the name is also used in other sports, and also describe in a very high overview what happened in other series. Kind regards, jguk 17:07, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Go ahead, no probs here.  =Nichalp (Talk)= 19:06, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

I've renamed the section "2003 in Australia" to "Steve Waugh's last Ashes" - think that's the most memorable thing that happened during the series (although it was also Alec Stewart's and Andy Caddick's last). As for used in other sports, isn't it only rugby league who use the term Ashes? Sam Vimes 18:17, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

I thought it was more sports than that - doesn't netball have Ashes? I'll have to do some (entirely unoriginal, of course) research, jguk 18:24, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Ah yes... research on netball... n-e-t-b-a-l-l :-) Albatross2147 12:15, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

While being good reading (and perhaps worthy of another article), I think jguk's series overview is going into a bit too much detail. Consider that at the moment about 30 lines (on my comp anyway - out of about 120) is on the first 20 years of the Ashes - so the article would eventually have something like 270 lines, which I think is a bit too long (though I'm not really sure how long featured articles usually are). IMO we should go from "very high overview" to "satellite-overview" (for example: "England dominated the 1880s, winning the first eight series and only giving up four Tests"), so that we can condense the article a bit. Sam Vimes 14:05, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

I admit I did feel it was getting a bit long as I wrote it. I just read through the History of Test cricket (1884 to 1889) and History of Test cricket (1890 to 1900) articles and added stuff from there. Please feel free to edit it down to size, jguk 18:20, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Trivia

I've removed this (mostly as I don't like it, and it seems juvenile for what is about to become a featured article):

In the fictional universe of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the Ashes are actually the remains of the Wooden Pillar, a piece of the original "Wikkit Key" that was created as part of the punishment of the xenophobic planet Krikkit.

Kind regards, jguk 18:24, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Bah, Douglas Adams was never juvenile. ;) I agree that it has little to do with the Ashes as a cricket series, though. Sam Vimes 18:46, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Is there any room for a section or separate page on the Ashes in fiction? Doctor Who briefly landed on the pitch during an (obviously fictional) Ashes test at the Oval in 1966 as I recall. Episode script here (scene 6).--The Brain of Morbius 00:18, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

How about "The Ashes outside cricket", which could encompass Doctor Who, HHGTG, rugby, and get it all out of the way of the cricket stuff. Smoddy (Rabbit and pork) 09:00, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

I would never have even bothered reading this article if I hadn't read about "the Ashes" in the Hitchhiker's Guide!

Dates in Table of Contents

I agree with Nichalp that once we get the whole summary up, in chronological order, dates are a bit pointless - as the article will mention them anyway. For the moment we can keep them, though, to show that there is still fifty years of history to be written. Sam Vimes 20:01, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

They are only pointless if we mention the dates in the text. At present we don't - though I'd be happy removing the dates from the headers if the text was amended to make the years clear. The article's certainly improving loads! But still a way to go to make it a FA! Kind regards, jguk 20:34, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

World Series Cricket

Surely the England wins of the late 70s have more to do with the Australian bans on World Series Cricketers than Boycott (who miraculously decided he did want to play again when Lillee and Thompson were out of the way)? jguk 21:13, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

PS You can tell I'm not a Yorkshireman:) jguk 21:16, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Quite possibly. I wasn't even born then! Edit it if you like (though I think the article currently says that England won the 1970-71 series because of Boycott - a series where he scored 657 runs @ 93.85, not the late 70s ones). There should be something expanded on the WSC era as well, but I don't think I'm best equipped to write it. Btw, interestingly, this seems to indicate that the 1979/80 series wasn't for the Ashes - could someone check that out and confirm it with a better source? Sam Vimes 21:23, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

PS Our old friend the table [1] seems to agree that 79-80 was not an Ashes series :) Sam Vimes 21:28, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Wisden confirms that the 1979/80 series was not for the Ashes - presumably as it was only a 3-Test series, jguk 21:38, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Cheers, removed it from the list then. Sam Vimes 21:41, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Where next?

Just trying to think where the article should go next? What else needs to be covered? What bits should be expanded? Any thoughts? jguk 12:35, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

From up the article, there were suggestions to make sections/articles on "The Ashes outside cricket" by Snoddy, and "The Ashes today" by Nichalp. I particularly like the last bit - writing about how it's viewed by the English and Aussies (diehard cricket fans or more casual sports fans) and also the other cricketing countries. Sam Vimes 12:46, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, I know how it's viewed by the English - and I can pretty much guess about the Aussies - but as for the Indians, West Indians, South Africans and Norwegians, someone else will have to help there:) jguk 18:23, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Brett Lee implied in May 2004 [2] that he felt the India-Australia series was of greater significance than the Ashes, at least in terms of being an "unofficial world championship". I'm not sure how many of his compatriots would agree, though. Loganberry 22:30, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Presumably as India was the last team to beat them in a series! jguk 05:43, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

FAC?

Should we give FAC a bash now? It'll either get through or we'll highlight more areas for improvement if we do. Kind regards, jguk 20:19, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Hold on. I want to add some matter on the section I suggested. Jguk, is it possible that a scanned pic of the ashes trophy be obtained? It would seem odd that the article does not have a pic of its trophy.  =Nichalp (Talk)= 10:23, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

If you can find a picci that we can use, please add one. I'm not sure about copyright myself - and it's impossible to take a good photo of it in the MCC Museum because of the glass case it is kept in, jguk 15:31, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

If you could take out a photo, then the best way is to take it out from an angle so that the flash reflects off the glass at another plane. The camers, glass and the trophy shouldn't be in a straight line in other words.  =Nichalp (Talk)= 11:55, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

Foreign relations

I believe that the rivalry started because of underlying political relations. I find it hard to believe that the governments of the two countries allowed the manifestation of the situation. I do believe that relations between the two nations were cooler than normal. Just as the India-Pakistan rivalry wouldn't have been had such ramifications as it does today, had the two nations not gone to war in the past. We need to cover the political relations at the start.  =Nichalp (Talk)= 11:53, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

Foreign relations

It is doubtful if the ashes commenced because of difficulties in the Anglo-Australian relationship. However, the Ashes have on occassions had the potential to worsen the relationship.

Two examples. 1. The body line series when the Australian board of control considered asking the English to leave and diplomatic messages were allegedly sent to defuse the situation.

2. Prior to the Ashes during an English tour in 1879(?), in an England vs NSW match, the umpire (Edmund Barton, who coincidentally was to become the first prime minister) turned down an English appeal. A section of the crowd heard an English fieldsman say " what do you expect from a group of convicts" (a very touchy subject in C19 Australia). A riot ensued and it was only due to the efforts of Barton that a diplomatic situation did not develop.--Porturology 00:40, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Note that there are very good articles about both of these at Bodyline and Sydney Riot of 1879. --Ngb 08:47, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Porturology is slightly wrong here. The riot started after George Coulthard, Barton's fellow umpire, gave Australian batsman Billy Murdoch out "run out". It was a close (but correct) decision, jguk 19:01, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Lifted from my talk page:

I don't think there was any hostility between Australians and British in the 1870s. The majority of Australians were British by birth and most of the rest regarded themselves as British by blood and by loyalties. Most Anglo-Australians were Empire loyalists, the only significant exception to this was the Irish minority. I don't think your thesis will hold water in this instance. In any case I've never seen any suggestion that sporting relations between Britain and the Australian colonies were anything other than friendly. Adam 12:36, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Opinion of Adam. I guess that relations were warm.  =Nichalp (Talk)= 18:19, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

The main hostility in the 1870s was between Victoria and New South Wales. The riot in Sydney did damage England/Australian cricket relations - but these were repaired by the end of the next Aussie tour to Britain, jguk 19:01, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Peer review

I've put this article in Peer review so that we can get some more eyeballs on this page in its goal to become a featured article.  =Nichalp (Talk)= 11:52, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

Botham's picture

unrelated: botham's pic doesn't show. --Peripatetic 23:38, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Are you using Zonealarm to block ads?  =Nichalp (Talk)= 05:02, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

2005 series

Considering that the imminent series was one of the reasons that the article was put forward as hopefully moving towards featured article status, it's suprising there's nothing here yet about Australia in England in 2005, other than one sentence at the end of the Steve Waugh section. Admittedly it hasn't started yet but surely there's a bit to say! - Ian 14:10, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC) Please ignore. I re-read and found the Ashes Today section - but maybe it could be a bit expanded. Ian 14:35, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Venues

Shouldn't we put all the six venues in England ? Tintin 11:01, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ashes in Fiction

The Ashes are a key plot element in Life, the Universe and Everything Morwen - Talk 14:54, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• That was originally mentioned, but it was deleted, as we didn't think it really relevant. Do you think you can find a good reason to keep it in? Perhaps the Rugby league section could be retitled "The Ashes outside cricket", then this could be mentioned along with the rugby. What do people think? smoddy 14:58, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • As an example of cultural impact, it can't be beat. - Ta bu shi da yu 06:01, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

• It is quite sufficient to have the existing link to the Rugby League page. No need for any other "Ashes" than the Cricket Ashes on this entry. Sports Fan 14:02, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Portal message

Do our external sites pull through our Portal: namespace? Should this actually be on the main article? - Ta bu shi da yu 06:00, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

It should probably be in the external links section (if at all) - that's where most other articles place it. →Raul654 06:02, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

The cricket portal is the only portal we have in the main namespace (as it is designed entirely with readers - and not editors - in mind). It's not an external link, jguk 06:35, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Two footnoting systems?

Good grief... I didn't even know these existed! Could we work on using one footnoting system? My preference is {{ref}} and {{note}}. - Ta bu shi da yu 06:14, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Have gone ahead and fixed it. With no help from Mozilla Firefox, which is unable to even do a simple copy and paste. - Ta bu shi da yu 06:25, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Have tidied up with later material and also reset the book references Chris 23:14, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Summary of results and statistics - contradiction

The text: "To date, a total of 62 Ashes series have been played with Australia winning 30 and England 27 of them. Five of the sixty-two rubbers have been drawn", in the section "Summary of results and statistics", does not match the chart "Ashesserieschart.png", which states that Australia have won 39 times and England 27, with five draws. I presume the text is correct, since 30 + 27 + 5 = 62. 1403 21-7-05 UTC

A quick count at List of Ashes series seems to confirm that, so I'll remove the graph for now - until someone makes a better one Sam Vimes 16:40, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Who reprimanded Peate?

In the report of the original "Ashes" match it is stated: "When Peate returned to the Pavilion he was reprimanded by the captain WG Grace for not allowing his partner at the wicket Charles Studd to get the runs." But Hornby, not Grace, was captain. So, who reprimanded Peate? MulgaBill 10:14, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Rugby Ashes

There is a rather silly edit war underway over the Rugby Ashes. This Ashes entry is about the cricket Ashes and it (rightly) contains a link to the Rugby League Ashes. Can we please leave it at that and not try and distort the cricket Ashes site with any more stuff about the Rugby League Ashes? Sports Fan 13:10, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

I think we should keep the paragraph. The term "Ashes" is used in various other sporting contexts, other than the original one (cricket) and the main other other (rugby) (The popularity and reputation of the cricket series has led to many other events taking the name for England against Australia contests.). It is only one paragraph, of four sentences, in a longish article; only two of those sentences are about rugby. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:33, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Agree with ALoan. The paragraph in question briefly explains the relationship with Rugby Ashes. The separate article Rugby League Ashes describes that series. -- Ian ≡ talk 13:53, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Agree with previous speakers - especially this: The popularity and reputation of the cricket series has led to many other events taking the name for England against Australia contests.. This should be explained further in the main article IMO - just like it was before Paddy Briggs got involved. Sam Vimes 14:12, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Oh dear, what a storm in a tea cup! "The Ashes" is, as the article makes clear, a cricket competiton. This article is (rightly) under the auspices of the Cricket Portal. At the beginning of the article there is a mention of the "other" Ashes which is a Rugby League competition. There is also a link to a page which deals with the Rugby competition. That is sufficient. PaddyBriggs 14:28, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

The rugby competition took its name from the cricket Ashes - which, I would think, is relevant to the history of the cricket Ashes? Sam Vimes 14:32, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Indeed: in addition to rugby, there are various other sports that use the term "the Ashes" for England/UK v. Australia matches, all derived from the cricket Ashes. An example. It makes sense to explain that here. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:43, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

This section describes some of the ways the cricket Ashes have influenced non-cricketing areas. It should stay in this article, jguk 20:29, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Where the trophy stays

I've added a note about the Ashes trophy staying at Lord's to the start of he article. I realise that this is covered in much more detail later on, but I don't think this bit of redundant information detracts from the article; someone who doesn't know anything about the Ashes might just skim the beginning and go away with the impression that the trophy is shipped between England and Australia every series, to be presented. Tonywalton

Is it a "Trophy"?

My view is that the Ashes urn is not a Trophy. A trophy is presented to the winning side at the end of a tournament/match. This does not (these days) happen to the Ashes urn (although I think that it once did). The trophy is the Waterford Crystal replica. What do others think?--PaddyBriggs 10:41, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

We've had a back-and-forth about this before. My take, for what it's worth, is that it was originally presented as a trophy (but arguably for that individual series). --Ngb ^?!? 10:43, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I have a photo of David Gower holding up the original Urn which he is certainly displaying as a trophy. Must have been 1985 I think. It will be ineteresting to see whether the ECB/MCC do let Michael Vaughan do the same at the Oval if it goes England's way next month!PaddyBriggs 11:11, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I've seen a photo of Steve Waugh kissing an immitation urn they had manufacturered, this was despite the trophy at that time clearly being the glass vase. The original presentation was to the captain who happily treated it as his personal property until it was entrusted to the MCC after his death. How, therefore, can this in any way be considered the trophy? It clearly can't. Dh219 11:06, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Ashes from England?

The history of the ashes is incorrect. See http://www.abcofcricket.com for the actual story of how the ashes came to be fought, and how the urn came into existance.

--128.243.21.225 09:34, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Any chance of more specific criticism? From a look at that site, the stories seem fairly identical Sam Vimes 12:41, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Bias

I understand the high emotions and good feeling right now (for the English anyway), but to me this article seems to have too much emphasis on the 2005 Ashes, especially when calling it "one of the most exciting series of all time", which cannot be proven as of yet and is opinion. I hope this article is corrected in due time. (Jamandell (d69) 21:23, 12 September 2005 (UTC))

Please, edit away. In response to your comments, though, Richie Benaud and numerous other writers have labelled this as the most exciting series of all time. Now this may be hyperbole, so sourcing it would be very good indeed. Direct quotes even better! Myself, I have to do some Greek prep, so excuse me. [[smoddy]] 21:30, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Indeed - I have been trying to keep it as NPOV as possible. The 2005 series is mentioned:

• entirely factually, in the first paragraph of the lead
• as a "great series" in the third paragraph (while "one of the most exciting series of all time" seems a little hyperbolic, the results speak for themselves - the second closest Test of all time; the first Australian follow-on for years, with a last-wicket partnership denying victory; England losing 7 wickets chasing 124 runs; and Warne and McGrath's wickets this morning, until Pietersen came in - at least four of the matches are gems)
• in passing, in the section on Australian dominance, again entirely factually
• in the new section on the 2005 series - this pretty much copies material that was previsouly in the lead or the "Ashes today" section, and is pretty straight
• in the "Ashes Today" section, which is really about the wider impact of the 2005 series today and going forwards

Here are a few references for Benaud's opinion ([3] [4] [5]) and I'm sure more from other commentators are available. I did add this paragraph:

The cricket in the 2005 Ashes series was not of the highest quality, with Glenn McGrath missing from two matches, many dropped catches on both sides, and slips behind the stumps by Geraint Jones, but it provided enthralling viewing. Respected commentator Richie Benaud has said that the 2005 Ashes series is the greatest series on which he has commentated, just ahead of Botham's Ashes in 1981.

but it was deleted by User:Johnporter24 - perhaps it should go back in? -- ALoan (Talk) 00:45, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Internal contradiction

In the final section of "The matches", the cricket of the 2005 series is said to be "not of the highest quality" whereas the lower section "The Ashes today" says the cricket was of "overall high quality". Technically these statements are not totally contradictory but they seem a bit strange when considered together. My own opinion, for what it's worth, is that the standard of cricket was patchy: sometimes brilliant, sometimes awful (but always enthralling). I hope the authors of both these sections consider whether their sweeping statements are helpful. --DominicSayers 14:27, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

The urn

Is it terracotta, as described twice, or wooden, as described in "First Ashes quest"? I hesitate to edit one way or the other because I don't know; were there even two urns? phil_n 22:19, 14 September 2005 (UTC)