Talk:Yonsei

Discussion moved to main article Yonsei (Occidentalist (talk) 11:59, 19 November 2008 (UTC)).

Requested move

Yonsei (disambiguation) → Yonsei — To revert undiscussed page move. As there is no agreement on what is the primary topic (see Talk:Yonsei), the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title without "(disambiguation)" per WP:DABNAME. — Kusunose 16:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support as nominator. --Kusunose 16:23, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
• Support *sigh*, procedure over procedure. The primary topic of Yonsei has not been decided so far, so it would be better for Yonsei to remain as "dab" page.--Caspian blue 16:31, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Comment: NO -- I can hardly follow the thread of changes which have been wrought in the past month ... and the chain of edit histories are so mangled that I doubt anyone else can manage it easily.

No. The correct thing to do here is nothing -- to leave this as is with a page protection which puts page moves outside the array of weapons which can be used in this battlefield.

FACT: Caspian blue knew or should have known that moving Yonsei to create a disambiguation page was controversial, but it was done without regard to the consequences ... and here we are.

Is this to be construed as a personal attack which then serves as a smokescreen to obscure the root question? I don't that is going to work becuase the phrase "knew or should have known" is presented as declaratory and alternative rather than accusatory and express.

Without the distraction of a smokescreen indignation or outrage -- and all the heady drama implied, the modest question becomes whether it is possible to re-discover the state of Yonsei diff when Caspian blue initiated the chain of moves which brings us to where we are today?

In order for that first step to be valid -- and for the house-of-cards erected upon that foundation to be valid, an objective analysis will have to conclude that everything about this page on November 6th supports both an assumed claim that the action Caspian blue took was above reproach and that the reasons given in the edit history were also minor and valid and non-controversial:

• m (moved Yonsei to Yonsei (Japanese term): Making a dab page. This is NOT a well-known PRIMARY topic in English unlike "nisei" and "sansei" found in dictionaries and web search.)

To conclude that this specific edit was minor, valid, and non-controversial is a stretch; but even if, hypothetically, we were to assume all of of that ... there still remains one other unanswered question: We would have to accept that Caspian blue was blissfully unaware that an interested editor was involved in the process of working on the article ....

NO. Not possible ... that is beyond the scope of WP:AGF.

In short, a review of the edit histories on November 6th will show that this was a poor beginning for an adventure which has careened of control. To pretend otherwise is to exacerbate things further.

WP:TL;DR?

If anyone thinks the summary is too long, I can only respond by explaining that it was much harder to endure serial evolutions and developments as they unfolded.

Kusunose's proposal

What Kusunose proposes is eminently reasonable, unremarkable, routine ... when viewed through the narrow focus of mere days; but in the broader panorama across months and years in which Wikipedia administrators have wrongly allowed articles to become mired in a too-long series of hapless battlefields with "dimensions of Korean and Japanese nationalism", a terse "no" is a more constructive and hopeful response. This is one of those odd moments in which "no" actually becomes a step towards creating something more workable.

In my view, all further moves need to stop while other crucial issues are thrashed out.

ASIDE:Ultimately, I would expect to see Yonsei (disambiguation) as the ultimate outcome; therefore, I see no harm in leaving matters as they are.

A more profitable use of time would be invested in giving close scrutiny to one of the elements Caspian blue added to embellish that disambiguation page which opened the door to the Comedy of Errors as it has since played out:

• Yonsei Severance Hospital

Caspian blue's redirect appears to be a made-up term, a petty legerdemain, a bit of filler which is inconsistent with WP:V. See, e.g.,

• Talk:Yonsei Severance Hospital?
• Talk:Severance Hospital?

If this is demonstrably not a hoax, then I would be pleased to acknowledge it; but, when Caspian blue refused to respond to my inquiries, and then eventually responded only in Korean, my misgivings were not minimized, mitigated, ameliorated.

It appears that Caspian blue, who is arguing (on behalf of others perhaps?) in support of the proposition that Yonsei University is an exemplar of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, has over-reached. If it turns out that a contrived hoax was deemed necessary to strengthen a weak argument ..., then there is something wrong which can only be illuminated by examining this minor tempest-in-a-teapot for what it is or whatever it's supposed to be. The conventional tendency to extend all benefits of doubt to Caspian blue's point-of-view would not apply. and Caspian blue will have made a very persuasive argument that the alternative -- the Nikkei emigrants/immigrants are an exemplar of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. --Tenmei (talk) 21:26, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments: