Talk:First-person shooter

Article merged: See old talk-page here

Call of Duty, and FarCry/Crysis

I took the liberty of looking at a bunch of top ten lists. There are a lot of intermittent mentions, like Shogun, or Resistance Fall of Man. But there are two names that keep coming up that should probably be included: FarCry/Crysis, and the Call of Duty series. Besides having a pretty devoted following, both of them really represent major refinements in the genre: FarCry in terms of graphics and open world level design, and Call of Duty in terms of cinematics and storytelling. (Not that I've played either game. That's just what I've read / heard.) Randomran (talk) 21:17, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, they're among a few recent games I was tempted to put in. My concern is that it's a bit early to know such games will have a lasting influence, as well as the fear of skewing the article in favour of the name dropping of in-vogue titles. I'm looking through some reviews now though. bridies (talk) 21:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

All right, done. bridies (talk) 22:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Looks good to me. A few token mentions doesn't hurt. We want the history to seem complete, without going into exhaustive detail about every single FPS. Randomran (talk) 22:09, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm wondering why Far Cry 2 was mentioned instead of the original. The original was far more ground breaking than the sequel. I've never played FC2, but when FC was released it the game to judge all new games by. I don't see how FC2 is even worth mentioning other than being just another above average FPS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.60.130 (talk) 02:44, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Why is Perfect Dark not mentioned?

This game made GE007 look like a low quality, over easy hunk of junk. PD was of course made by Rare. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.236.190.83 (talk) 09:58, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

• It's not meant to be an exhaustive list of every single game ever made. Randomran (talk) 15:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

No Mention of Marathon?

I noticed there seems to be (what I believe) to be an oversight. Marathon, made by Bungie made several advances only a year after Doom - 1994, such as Looking up and down (Before Dark Forces), A More powerful network engine than Doom, including voice chat. Polygon designed levels. A powerful physics engine allowing things such as adjustable gravity, and getting blown about by explosions. Dual-wielding weapons.

Oh yeah, it also featured a deep and complex plot. :)

Whilst Marathon only made a brief jump over to the Microsoft environment, it was a significant game (and subsequent trilogy) for Mac users.

Any thoughts folks? 122.49.134.163 (talk) 16:49, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Maybe. It's in one of the sources I used [1] but it says it was "a technically superior game that no one paid any attention to"... bridies (talk) 17:40, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a strong opinion either way. I haven't heard much about it, but it sounds like there are some compelling reasons to include it as part of the history. If someone could find a source on it, I'd add a sentence or two. Randomran (talk) 18:58, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Reverts

Right:

• 1. MIDI Maze needs a source. This is a GA, it cannot have unsourced material so this content will be removed until sources turn up.
• 2. "Though first person shooters showed up on consoles as well as PCs, they did not attain much commercial or critical success." Actually, the source explicitly states: "The introduction of the Playstation in 1995 brought the first successful FPSs to consoles." Also "showed up" is bad prose.
• 3. "Deus Ex appears to be a first-person shooter" Not necessarily. That's one opinion, other sources in the article don't consider it an FPS. So therefore "is sometimes considered".
• 4. The metroid prime paragraph is thematically linked to the info on Deus Ex (genre-blending and such). If one is going to remove it from the Halo info Deus Ex should go with it. bridies (talk) 01:40, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Also re: "Metroid Prime, released in 2002 for the Nintendo GameCube, another highly praised console first person shooter, incorporated action adventure elements such as jumping puzzles which represent an evolution of the Metroid series (2D platformers) into 3D."

The source says:

Nintendo's Gamecube had some pretty slim pickings as far as shooters went; that is until 2002 when Metroid: Prime was released. Despite numerous internal issues and widespread dismay from fans upon its announcement, Nintendo's in-house Retro game studio produced a top-of-the-line adventure. Based on the über-popular Metroid 2-D sidescrollers from the '80s and '90s, Prime followed the continuing story of space mercenary Samus Aran and her ongoing battle with the evil alien parasites, the Metroid. The mix of solid adventure standards like complex puzzles, exploration and platform jumping with beautifully designed enemies and a solid graphics engine produced what many said was the Game of the Year.

There is nothing in that block quote allowing the inference highlighted in bold above. bridies (talk) 02:13, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

By that logic we need to remove all mentions of Maze War, Spasim, and other unsourced information (they are just as sourced as MIDI Maze -- we have articles on them with some links but probably not RS). But generally instead of removing everything without a source, we leave in information that hasn't been challenged as possibly false or non-sourceable until we can find sources for it. Also, the UGO Games source probably fails WP:RS, especially for statements like ""The introduction of the Playstation in 1995 brought the first successful FPSs to consoles." This statement doesn't have context. Andre (talk) 11:12, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

There's definitely no source for this phrase: "The first passable console first person shooters were released in 1995, for the Sony Playstation." I object to the use of this UGO source for that statement, as it lacks context and probably falls under self-published source (it's a feature by a random editor for this website that was likely not fact checked) -- plus the use of "Passable" is ambiguous and not in the source. Andre (talk) 11:15, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Source for MIDI Maze release in 1987: IGN, GameSpot, MobyGames. Andre (talk) 11:18, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

In re: Metroid, how does "Based on the über-popular Metroid 2-D sidescrollers from the '80s and '90s" not lead to "which represent an evolution of the Metroid series (2D platformers) into 3D."? These two are roughly equivalent and it's not an unreasonable inference to use the phrase "evolution." Andre (talk) 13:34, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

• Like I said on your talk page, I'm pretty sure all the information in this article is sourced (and it has all been peer-checked). Sometimes there are two or three sentences in a row "covered" by the one citation. Again, I challenge you to provide specific quotes from the article which are not sourced. Since you say "all mentions of Maze War, Spasim" lets take the first mention of this in the history section:

The earliest two documented first person shooters were Maze War and Spasim. Maze War was the most similar to modern first person shooters, as it featured characters fighting on foot. Development of the game began some time in 1973 and was likely completed before Spasim, however its exact date of completion is unknown. Spasim had a documented debut at the University of Illinois in 1974. The game was a rudimentary space flight simulator, which featured a first-person perspective.

The source states:

Which two video games are the leading candidates for serving as the earliest documented game of the first-person shooter (FPS) genre?

Maze War and Spasim, both of which published working versions in 1974, are arguably the two earliest known FPS video games. Both feature a first-person perspective, pseudo-3D game environments, and an objective of shooting opposing players.

Which of these two came first? Maze War is the likely candidate, with development beginning sometime in 1973.

However, exact documentation of the "publish date" for Maze War isn't available, despite the fact that the game (also known as The Maze Game, Maze Wars, or Maze) got its start at the NASA Ames Research Center for use on Imlacs PDS-1 computers. From there, it spread to numerous platforms and organizations—notably MIT and Xerox—and somewhere along the way, its birthday was lost.

Of the two, Maze War is also the most similar to modern FPS games. Players wander through a 3D labyrinth environment, firing shots at other players, which appear as eye-like avatars. Versions of Maze War are still available for the Palm operating system, and the program's underlying logic inspired a number of early video games.

Somewhat ironically, it was a university—and not NASA—that developed the space simulator called Spasim. Unlike Maze War, Spasim had a well-documented debut in March 1974 on the PLATO network at the University of Illinois.

In simplest terms, Spasim was a rudimentary combat flight simulator. Players flew their craft from a first-person perspective in a 3D combat zone, while firing at opposing players rendered as wire-frame space ships.

• WP:GACR states that all information in a Good Article must come from a cited source.
• UGO is reliable, full-stop see here for example. Good luck getting consensus otherwise.
• The statement (not a phrase) "The first passable console first person shooters were released in 1995, for the Sony Playstation" comes from the UGO source. It says: "The introduction of the Playstation in 1995 brought the first successful FPSs to consoles." It also says "With the possible exception of a port of Ultimate Doom, the first few FPSs on the PS1 kinda blew". Saying that they were "passable" seemed like a good way of saying they were successful, but according to the source, not that great (and and not as successful as GoldenEye). We can talk about changing the wording (specifically "passable"), but it's not acceptable to say they weren't successful when the source explicitly says they were.
• MobyGames is generally not reliable and in any case doesn't back up what you wrote. Neither does the GameSpot source, which merely says it was an "action" game released in 1987. Your IGN source does, to some extent. Now you can say that it was an early FPS with networked play; but avoid any of that "demonstrates the same paradigm as Maze War" stuff, because it's not in the source.
• Re: Metroid. "Based on the über-popular Metroid 2-D sidescrollers from the '80s and '90s" means just that: "based on". It does not necessarily or explicitly follow that it was an "evolution", indeed the source points out many fans were dismayed at the change. In any case I don't see how the "evolution" of an 80s platform series is relevant to an FPS history article. What is relevant is that it was a successful FPS which incorporated adventure and jumping puzzle elements. bridies (talk) 14:55, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

• • Just to check in and try and offer some balance... we should add anything that can be verified in reliable third-party sources, so long as it doesn't take this article off topic or ascribe too much weight or detail. This article is a "good article", meaning that it represents high quality content that meets all of Wikipedia's policies. I know it's tempting to just expand this with whatever we're interested in, but we can't let the standard fall. Randomran (talk) 20:39, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Let's start by including MIDI Maze with the IGN, GameSpot sources and go from there. I'll try to deal with my other edits in a different way, and we can drop the specific diffs for now. Andre (talk) 03:19, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Do we have a source that does more than verify its existence? It would be nice to have a little bit more about it, to explain why it's an important part of the history of FPSs. Randomran (talk) 05:30, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I think its very existence as a multiplayer first person shooter released in 1987 is significant enough, and the 1991-1992 ports to SNES and Game Boy also make it one of the earliest console first person shooters. I think the influence of Maze War is pretty obvious from a cursory glance at both, but I don't have a source for that. Here are a few more references for MIDI Maze's existence in 1987 as a multiplayer FPS: START VOL. 3 NO. 2 / SPECIAL ISSUE #4 / PAGE 75, 1UP. Andre (talk) 07:00, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

You hit the jackpot with that 1up feature. That's exactly the kind of reference I was hoping was out there. Great job. Randomran (talk) 07:49, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Physics in FPS's

I'm wondering if anything could be made of the increasing interactivity in FPS environments in regards to physics technology and design, from basic object physics to developed ragdoll physics becoming standard, on to the innovations provided by Half-Life 2's gravity gun (afterall, one of the reasons why Half-Life 2 is regarded in the media as an exceptional FPS), and off into the future. The article doesn't touch on those aspects at present. -- Sabre (talk) 16:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

It's touched on a little bit in the "level design" section, although I see we haven't really mentioned it in the history section. I don't really know much about engines. bridies (talk) 17:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it's a good way to expand the article. Although researching these things are tough. We do have an entire (bad) article on first person shooter engines... maybe there's something to be said for summarizing a bit about how the technology has developed? Not sure. Randomran (talk) 18:45, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Article roadmap for expansion

As a video game GA on a popular topic, this article seems very aggressively watched and monitored. To avoid edit warring which seems pretty common, here are a few areas I would like to write about and would like to discuss:

• Role of FPS games in U.S. army recruitment -- America's Army -- and inroads into popular culture and the media if any are sourceable
• Improving eyesight with FPS titles
• The common use of game engines such as the Unreal Tournament engine (which might have been in America's Army, can't recall if it was that or another commercial engine) in a licensing business -- merge from First-person shooter engine, which is a horrible mess of lists and original research, but might have some ideas for what to look for in sourcing the discussion, rag-doll physics, the role of PC graphics cards and such
• Halo 3's stage-building features (I haven't tried the Forge myself so I might not be able to write this)
• Late 80s FPSs
  • Dark Side, which is definitely an FPS from 1988, and Driller its prequel which might be an FPS, but is definitely an early first person game that led to Dark Side
  • The Colony, which also alleges to be from 1988, an early user of ray casting, but I have never seen
  • Phantom Slayer, 1982, very very primitive hardware but seems to be an FPS
  • Dungeons of Daggorath, same deal, also 1982

Andre (talk) 08:43, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

• • Zig Zag - an fps from 1984 for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum. I'm sure there are more, but this does have all the ingredients of an fps. a_man_alone (talk) 15:18, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Question: what's "stage-building" when its at home-and extending from that, why is it considered innovative for inclusion here? A Google search shows nothing that actually explains it for people like myself who've never heard of it. I'm imagining something like the random mission generator from Soldier of Fortune 2, but I'm probably wrong in that. -- Sabre (talk) 23:34, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure that I can answer that, I haven't tried it myself. Andre (talk) 23:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Half Life wasn't the first fps to feature NPC's

The article quotes somewhere:Valve's Half-Life was released in 1998. Initially met with only mild anticipation, it went on to become an unprecedented commercial success.[14][41] While previous first person shooters had focused on visceral gameplay with comparatively weak plots, Half-Life had a strong narrative; the game featured no cut scenes but remained in the first person perspective at all times. It featured innovations such as non-enemy characters but did not employ power-ups.Now I know that non hostile characters were not a norm at that time but Half Life certainly isn't the first one to walk that path.The 1996 Doom Engine game Strife surely did before that for instance even if its not really that popular.So unless you give me a good reason I'm deleting/replacing that sentence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheSmasher42 (talk • contribs) 15:04, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

It's sourced. "Innovative" doesn't necessarily mean "the first"; if a game featured a rare, new feature then it's reasonable to claim, as the source does, that it "featured an innovation". Especially if any other games making use of it weren't popular. bridies (talk) 15:15, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Controls

Should we include a section on the different control methods of First Person Shooters, and their Pros and Cons (Mouse and Keyboard, Gamepad, motion sensing, etc.)? "It's over 9000!" 07:34, 18 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by FstrthnU (talk • contribs)

Well at least something better than what's there; saying that keyboard and mouse is better than a controller requires more than two random references (10, 11). One is just an article on a mouse/keyboard plug for an XBOX (basically an advert) and the other is some random news article on Killzone 2 where the writer mentions his preference.--150.101.242.246 (talk) 18:00, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Er, no it doesn't. Feel free to provide sources stating otherwise. bridies (talk) 01:54, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the article should include a little bit more discussion of control schemes than it does now. But obviously not to the extreme of how the article was a couple of years ago, when it featured a ridiculously over-detailed description of various control systems (which I confess I was largely responsible for). Still, maybe some short points from back then could be incorporated again, such as the fact that certain consoles like the Dreamcast have permitted the use of keyboard and mouse peripherals.

As for the reference to keyboard and mouse being "superior" to pads: perhaps the benefits should be explained more specifically (but still concisely), using a phrase such as "allowing faster and more precise aiming"? (The New York Times article on Killzone 2 used as reference #11 uses the word "precise".) --Nick R^Talk 20:47, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't see that we especially need more information on controls but people are welcome to add sourced information. The Team Xbox source just says: "the well known PC combo that has been the envy of many console gamers for years". bridies (talk) 23:21, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

On the subject of overlooked games...

System Shock and its sequel certainly deserve a mention or three. While neither were huge sellers, they were both highly acclaimed and arguably more influential on the traditional FPS lineage than any game outside of Doom itself. Their respective wikis have more info, but to summarize, the '94 original contains a treasure-trove of innovative features such as jumping, climbing, crouching, leaning, floating in six degrees (in Cyberspace sections), flashlights, ungradeable equipment, multiple ammo types, tactical combat, and ridiculously advanced physics (weapon recoil, sliding down ramps, object bouncing, etc.), not to mention a strong emphasis on story through radio contact and text and audiologs (same as Bioshock). System Shock 2 is often regarded as a milestone for FPS/RPG hybrids and survival horror games - its scary atmosphere and rich sound-design easily supercede everything the current article says about Doom 3. The main SS2 wiki lists five major gaming sites that include it on "greatest games ever" lists.

On a different note, I suggest S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Shadow of Chernobyl (or perhaps ARMA/Operation Flashpoint) would make a better example of open world gameplay than Far Cry 2. FC2 seems to me to have too much controversy swirling around it over just how "open" it really is.

76.212.165.102 (talk) 08:37, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Those are fair points, all one has to do are find supporting sources. bridies (talk) 10:06, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Chart of FPS games by date and engine

I've started this chart, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FPSChart.svg , inspired by this one, http://i.imgur.com/JCF0L.jpg . ---- IsaacAA (talk) 17:57, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I've added references.

FPS games, arranged by date and graphics engine

----IsaacAA (talk) 16:54, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

History - Introduction of Pointer and Motion Controls

I think Metroid Prime 3: Corruption deserves a reference in the History section for its incorporation of motion controls. I'm not certain whether it's the first motion-controlled FPS, but it's certainly the first one that's used motions well. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.99.68.132 (talk) 05:08, 22 November 2009 (UTC)