Talk:Hutaree

Deletion

The page needs to be cleaned up and organized and then will be able to be assessed properly. Right now it is jumbled. I say it needs modification, but not deletion yet Logan brennan (talk) 19:59, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

What Wikipedia policy is this page violating?--98.114.134.238 (talk) 15:19, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

WP:NOT#NEWS. Ironholds (talk) 15:20, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

So you are saying that an alleged hate group/Christian Militia active in a liberal northern state is not noteworthy? Evidently you would be wrong because the raid/raids have been plastered all over the networks news programs. Someone thinks that they are a "Clear and present danger to the national security of the United States." Yes, I do realize that "national security" could be twisted into any meaning.--Degen Earthfast (talk) 15:30, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Try here [1] for 47,000 hits.--Degen Earthfast (talk) 15:32, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

See Christian Patriot movement--Degen Earthfast (talk) 15:49, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Moving past the humour of anywhere in America being called liberal, actually read WP:NOT#NEWS. Google hits after a news story strikes? Irrelevant. Lots of news sources over a short period? Irrelevant. Ironholds (talk) 15:54, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

You would be wrong of course, the Google hits merely prove how wrong you are. 47.000 to you.--Degen Earthfast (talk) 16:06, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

The "Liberalness" of Michigan is highly debatable. It clearly misses the reality of Michigan and its actual political culture. The Michigan State Senate is Republican controlled, we have a Republican Attorney General who is among those sueing over federal health care, and Stupak is not easily described simply as "liberal". I would advise avoiding such simplistic descriptions of anything.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:19, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

While I scarcely think it matters much (or at all), within the context of this article, I think its clear that Michigan is a sort "swing state," that leans somewhat to the Democrats in Presidential elections, but where the Republican Party, and conservatives & rightists generally, retain substantial power. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 02:54, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Point 1 against deletion. WP:NOT#NEWS relates to news events, but the subject of this article is an organization. Borrowing words from WP:ORG here, this organization is now noteworthy because it has become the subject of international coverage by multiple reliable, independent sources. Point 2 against deletion. Even if you disagree with point 1 and want this to be a news event, then per WP:EVENT, it was nominated for deletion much too soon. Articles about breaking news events should not be nominated for several days, to allow time for a clearer picture of the notability of the event to emerge. This article was created less than a day ago. MetaEd (talk) 22:23, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Hutaree may be significant

The recent action by law enforcement against the militia Hutaree is likely to make this group historically significant. This could be the opening of a major anti-militia effort by the FBI; it may not be just a flash-in-the-pan news topic. Downtown dan seattle (talk) 03:22, 29 March 2010 (UTC)downtown_dan_seattle 03:19, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

But there's no way to tell that. If there is evidence of actual significance, show some. If there isn't, we're not a newspaper. Ironholds (talk) 03:30, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

This is nothing like the crystal ball rule. It's not conjecture about things that will exist in the future. The group is already significant--it's part of a headline article on the New York Times. It shouldn't be deleted.131.96.91.96 (talk) 21:02, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I linked this to the Michigan Militia page; whether or not this particular group has any longevity, an encyclopedic treatment of these events belongs in that page. Edward Vielmetti (talk) 11:29, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually there is no clear evidence that this is linked to the Michigan Militia. Mr. Vielmetti, if you actually went and read that page you would see it is about a specific organization, and until you provide evidence linking Hutaree to it, you are making false conclusions. Just because a militia organizations is headquartered in Michigan does not mean it is at all affiliated with the Michigan Militia.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:23, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

It's probably actually more important to note that in response to this incident, the Michigan Militia has stated that they are not associated with this group in any way and has condemned the use of violence against elected officials and LEOs [2][3].Dysperdis (talk) 23:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

The group is being targeted by the FBI and several news reports have been about them. I think that this does qualify as notable. And yes they are terrorists. -Kylelovesyou (talk) 02:05, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps they aspired to be terrorists (that is all allegation, of course; they remain innocent until proven guilty - the government has of yet provided no real evidence of any substantive illegality on their part - it merely claims they intended to kill police officers, which may or may not be an accurate claim), but genuine terrorists would seem to be people who have committed acts of terrorism, not merely people who (perhaps) desired to commit acts of terrorism, but who were prevented from ever doing so (assuming they ever actually so intended). KevinOKeeffe (talk) 02:58, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

conlicting information

The people arrested March 28 considered police to be their enemies and were going to attack police and then attack the funerals according to the first two links below. That's completely different from an anti-Islamic organization. http://www.fox11az.com/news/national/89370147.html http://www.startribune.com/nation/89383482.html?elr=KArks:DCiUMEaPc:UiD3aPc:_Yyc:aU7DYaGEP7vDEh7P:DiUs 4.249.15.192 (talk) 15:51, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

The above are all allegations until proven. --Degen Earthfast (talk) 16:00, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

The allegations are notable and verifiable. Press release from the US Attorneys Office is a reliable source I would reckon. http://www.scribd.com/doc/29094479/Press-release-on-Hutaree-indictment . 86.164.76.148 (talk)

The allegations are notable and verifiable, yes, but they are still merely allegations, not statements of fact. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 03:00, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Not terrorists?

How are these maniacs not terrorists? Because they claim to be Christian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.212.200.24 (talk) 19:21, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I am in favor of keeping this article, at least for the present. There was significant news today, and it appears likely that it will be a current event for some days to come. I would like to see it stay, if only for the sake of persons who will hear about it on the news and want to look up something more about it. The article will undoubtedly grow as coverage becomes more in-depth. it would be nice to know (if it is in fact available) the origin of the term "Hutaree," beyond the group's simple derivation of it as Christian soldier. (From what language, or what origin?)Opaanderson (talk) 20:05, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism

I'm going to remove the vandalism within the article. 69.110.72.128 (talk) 20:38, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Clarification

In exactly what language does "Hutaree" mean "Christian Warrior?" Hebrew? Greek? Aramaic? One would assume one of these three, given that this is a purported "Christian" fundamentalist terrorist militia group. However, it is not clear from any of the news articles which one is the alleged source of their name. Calibanu (talk) 02:28, 30 March 2010 (UTC)User Calibanu

I read an article online somewhere which indicated that Hutaree was said to mean "warrior" in "a secret language." It would appear to be a form of mumbo jumbo. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 02:50, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

"Hate group?

The article is categorically tagged as a "hate group," and yet there doesn't seem to be any obvious basis for such a categorization. Advocating the violent overthrow of various other governments does not automatically make an organization a "hate group," ergo I see no reason to assume that advocating the violent overthrow of the government of the USA should be grounds for automatic branding as a "hate croup." I believe there is a well-meaning but misguided tendency on the part of some people to assume that any group that is violent (or apparently inclined towards violence), and which is part of the extreme right-wing, is somehow, by necessity, a "hate group." That seems nonsensical, however, and without some substantiation to the effect of how this group promotes (or promoted) a doctrinal hatred of some demographically definable segment of the population (presumably based on religion, race, ethnicity, nationality, colour, sex, or sexual orientation), then I'm going to remove the classification from this article. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 02:49, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Some would argue that as it targeted a specifically defined occupational group (law enforcement officers), then it could be defined as a hate group on that basis. Is that argument valid here? Calibanu (talk) 02:54, 30 March 2010 (UTC)User Calibanu

Such an argument would seem silly to me. They weren't perhaps planning to attack police officers due to an ideological hatred of those persons who choose to work in the enforcement of the laws, but rather because police officers are, much like soldiers, the armed protectors of the government which they apparently intended to overthrow. If one were to blow up a bridge, in order to prevent enemy soldiers from crossing said bridge, that would not mean that one belonged to a "hate group" which was motivated by a hatred of bridges. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 03:08, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

They have a forum titled "Evil Jew Forum" http://www.hutaree.com/forum/ How are they not a hate group? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.190.67.54 (talk) 03:29, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

"Weapons of Mass Destruction"

I removed the Citation needed for the WMD claims. This is covered in the press release about the indictments from the US Attorneys office... Quoting "According to the plan, the Hutaree would attack law enforcement vehicles during the funeral procession with Improvised Explosive Devices with Explosively Formed Projectiles, which, according to the indictment, constitute weapons of mass destruction." Just wanted to mention it on the talk page, instead of fitting it all into the edit summary. Malbolge (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:52, 30 March 2010 (UTC).

The U.S. Attorney's Office is not the arbiter of objective reality. The term "Weapons of Mass Destruction" has actual meaning, and these shaped projectile charges either meet that definition, or they do not. It has yet to be demonstrated they they do meet such a definition. WMDs are almost universally regarded as being limited to nuclear, biological, chemical, and radiological weapons. These are none of those. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 03:04, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The US Attorney's Office Press Release is a reliable source. They state the explosive devices constitute WMD's. The sentence involving WMD's is about the statements from the US Attorney's Office. Malbolge (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:13, 30 March 2010 (UTC).

The U.S. Attorney's Office has an obligation to use terms properly, just like everyone else. If they don't, then their press release only proves they have made a bizarre claim the group had WMDs, by employing an unorthodox definition of the term "WMD," not that the group possessed anything generally understood to actually constitute WMDs. If the U.S. Attorney's Office were to define shoelaces as a WMD, would that claim also be taken at face value? Or is it possible that the definition of WMDs is not something determined by the arbitrary perfidy of the U.S. Attorney's Office? KevinOKeeffe (talk) 03:27, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Further to the above, "For the purposes of US Criminal law concerning terrorism, weapons of mass destruction are defined as:

"any destructive device as defined in section 921 of this title;" With section 921 stating a destructive device is "any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas—bomb, grenade, rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces [113 grams], missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce [7 grams], mine, or device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding clauses...." The devices to be used could meet these criteria, and so the WMD indictments. Malbolge (talk) 03:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)