Talk:Atonality

Schoenberg was the innovator of the system, but his student Webern then began applying the same rules to not only notes, but other aspects of music as well.

Is this really true? Which pieces by Webern serialise more than the pitches? --Camembert

Webern begins using rows starting with Concerto for 9 Instruments in 1934. Messaien begins parameterizing - not rows - dynamics in the 1940's. The term "serial" is Stockhausen's.

Impressive, User:Stirling Newberry.Hyacinth 01:18, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Sorry to press you on this, but what aspects other than pitch does Webern subject to serial procedures in the Concerto? --Camembert

Dynamics and register are the first to aspects that he begins to apply rows to. Concerto for 9 instruments has a "row" of tone colors and the Piano Variations have a row of dynamics.

Stirling Newberry

Can you tell me what source you're getting this from? I have to say, I think you are mistaken. What Webern sometimes does is associate certain pitches with certain dynamics and methods of articulation, so that every time you get a B flat, for example, it is forte and staccato. But this cannot really be said to be using serial procedures. However, I won't edit the article until I've have the chance to look at my old notes on this (I've studied the piano Variations quite closely) and some scores, just to be sure. --Camembert

I am not clear where we are in disagreement. I do not see where I said that Webern has serialized dynamics and tone colour separate from the pitch class row. If I have - please show me where.

Stirling Newberry

I see. I must have misunderstood. I'm glad we're in agreement. --Camembert

This article is beginning to actually look good.

Anyone care to take a crack at describing actual practice?

Stirling Newberry

Modernism template

I've added a template feel free to add new articles to it. Stirling Newberry 00:29, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Pantonal redirects here?

Why does 'Pantonal' redirect to 'Atonal'.... they are not the same thing. 'Pantonal' needs its own article.

"Pantonal, pantonality. The free use of all twelve pitch classes, as distinct from their restricted use according to the principles of tonality; hence, synonymous with atonal, atonality." The Harvard Concise Dictionary of Music (2002) and Musicians by Don Michael Randel, ISBN 0674009789.

"pantonality, pantonal. Term preferred to 'atonality' or 'atonal' by Schoenberg and used by the music analyst Rudolph Reti with reference to 20th-century music that is tonal but where the key is constantly fluctuating or compromised (that of Bartok or Stravinsky, for instance)." The Penguin Companion to Classical Music (2005) by Paul Griffiths, ISBN 0140515593.

Reti's use would be called "nonfunctional tonality" or pandiatonic. I'll make pantonal a disambiguation page. Hyacinth 10:37, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! I think this is much clearer. I was only familiar with the latter sense, so thanks also for filling me in on the former.

Positive Music Movement

I just removed a paragraph fromt the criticism section about hte Postive Music Group. There is a http://www.dovesong.com/positive_music/movement.asp which may oppose atonal music and promote tonal music, but their website doesn't seem to mention either term. Hyacinth 12:45, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Contact them by mail, they will tell you about it if you don't understand their page's statements which are clearly directed against atonality.80.138.172.139 01:20, 4 February 2006 (UTC)