Talk:Ryan Giggs

Ryan Giggs children

Right, I just had a glance at Giggs's private life section on here. The details about his kids only come from one source, [1]. Not only is this a commerical site, i'm sure that using it would constitute original research. Are there other sources that could be used? I did some quick googling but I can't find anything that mentions his kids by name, just the fact that he has two. Postrock1 (talk) 20:42, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

His children are named in the Manchester United DVD "Ryan Giggs: True Red". When I'm done with my uni work (should be by the end of the week), I'll give it a watch and add a reference. – PeeJay 17:23, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Brilliant, thank you. Postrock1 (talk) 17:57, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Took me a lot longer to get round to it than I thought it would, but this is finally done. Giggs' kids' middle names aren't mentioned on the DVD, but at least we now have a published source for the fact that he has two kids called Libby and Zach. – PeeJay 23:56, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Gossip

• I have reviewed the situation because of the allegation of improper use of suppression tools. Any suppressions made have fallen within the applicable policies. Folks, this is an encyclopedia, not a gossip sheet. Information, especially salacious or highly controversial information, being added to biographical articles must be sourced, without exception. This is Wikipedia's policy and standard, and it has nothing to do with injunctions or superinjunctions or anything happening in the courts of the United Kingdom. If people feel an overwhelming urge to spread gossip, I strongly urge them to go elsewhere, as repeated BLP violations is grounds for removal from the project. This includes talk pages of articles. Risker (talk) 21:04, 23 April 2011 (UTC) Corrected Risker (talk) 15:36, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

>>This is Wikipedia's policy and standard, and it has nothing to do with injunctions or superinjunctions or anything happening in the courts of the United Kingdom

Liar liar your pants are on fire: A spokesman for Wikipedia confirmed the website will continue to do all it can to prevent super injunctions being breached by British users (http://www.metro.co.uk/news/862006-wikipedia-names-super-injunction-celebrities)

Wow. I wonder who the super injunction relates to now?.........

Scholes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.26.194.27 (talk) 20:46, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

If you truly believe everything that you read in the papers, then I worry for you. The point about super-injunctions is that they prevent any discussion about the subject of that injunction. Therefore there will be no reliable sources about this and that means it cannot be included on Wikipedia. This has always been the case, injunction or not. Until there are reliable sources that state categorically the subject of any injunctions, the gossip will be removed as per WP:BLP wherever it is placed. Woody (talk) 22:44, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

"I have reviewed the situation because of the allegation of improper use of suppression tools". Doesn't the fact that suppression tools are being used give the game away a little bit? Perhaps we should be using suppression tools to mask the fact that suppression tools are being used... doomgaze (talk) 23:57, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Would that make them super-suppression tools? Habasi (talk) 00:28, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

I was wondering if full protection might be appropriate for a while, or are we doing ok with suppression? –anemoneprojectors– 20:47, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

We've only had one bad edit since the semi-protection started so at the moment I think it is okay. We have had had lots of good edits in the same amount of time so I would be loathe to protect it but if we do get another bad edit we will have to look into fully-protecting it. Woody (talk) 21:09, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Ah yeah I forgot to look at when the page was semi-protected and how many edits there have been since. –anemoneprojectors– 21:28, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree that information should not be added without reliable sources, and when this is done, it should be reverted if sources can't be found. What I'm unclear about, though, is why edit summaries would be blocked and why people cannot see what the reverted edits were. Is it usual on Wikipedia to do this? Boleyn (talk) 17:11, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes it is not that common but there is a fair amount of redaction across articles now, particularly BLPs. Vandalism that is particularly egregious or potentially defamatory can be removed. See WP:REVDEL for the specific policy and guidelines. The edit summaries had obscenities in them hence why they were removed. Woody (talk) 22:43, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

First of all I completely agree that all information needs to be sourced before it can be added. We could analyse the number of links to this article from Twitter 'rumours', however its near impossible to quantify rumours and use that as a source. Seeing as the very nature of a super-injunction means that no references exist, and therefore no references can be sourced, the matter is simply a catch-22 - nothing exists because nothing can be sourced yet nothing can be sourced because nothing exists. HOWEVER, the very fact that we are all talking with absolute and prior knowledge, verbatim, about the fact of a super-injunction, surely proves the fact that there has been a super-injunction? Surely this talk page is our source? Look at this way - if you moved this entire talk page onto an external site away from Wikimedia, perhaps a blog or a foreign article, then this could easily provide us with a source of quantifiable knowledge and an arguable reference point. Therefore if we are to truly be able to edit this article including sourcing, then the source must come from within discussion.

There is no use evading this - eventually some bright spark will simply look at this talk page and come up with their own conclusions. You would have to be an idiot, after reading this talk page, not to realise who the super-injunction relates to. We have inadvertently created our own sources. I don't see this as gossip, everyone on this page knows the trut,h otherwise your own arguments would be completely discredited - this is a huge chunk of personal information that Wikipedia is missing out on and it's absolutely vital to add this to the written article. I am a strong opponent of vandalism and I would hate to see this article ruined without sources - yet, I believe once we have a source, there is nothing you can do or should do to prevent it, and guess what? We have this source so it is only a matter of time.82.26.166.196 (talk) 11:37, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

That's the point though. No reliable sources exist - possibly because of the terms of an injunction, possibly because the gossip is in fact rubbish. That makes things very simple for WP, because guidelines here require reliable sources - no sources equals no coverage on here. And no, this talk page wouldn't be considered a reliable source, even if it was reproduced on another site first, for the same reasons that a chat with your friends over a couple of beers wouldn't be. See WP:IRS. EJBH (talk) 13:51, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

All very true. I mean obviously it was Ryan Giggs, a quick read of last weeks Private Eye and it's nudge nudge article or a conversation with someone in the Have I Got News For You show last week will tell you that. :D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.88.243.211 (talk) 23:45, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

"Therefore there will be no reliable sources about this" hmm, a conclusion too far, rather it is a matter of time until he is outted in a reliable source, and this article will have a super-injunction section, just like Fred Goodwin, and Andrew Marr. while reversion of unsupported statements is fine, the use of "supression tools" seems as timid as the BBC, and does not reflect well on WP. Slowking4 (talk) 15:41, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

In all seriousness, does this qualify as a reliable source for the above issues ? http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/3570530/Ryan-Giggs-is-full-of-admiration-for-Javier-Hernandez.html For legal reasons, please don't read the text of the link. Not that there is anything in it to read. Robinr22 (talk) 00:08, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Well the article's headline is "Giggs: I'm in awe of Javier's form" and it mentions nothing about anything. The link is made up. Turns out you can put anything, same as Digital Spy. Even http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/3570530/Ryan-Giggs-eats-babies.html works. –anemoneprojectors– 00:15, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh. Well, that makes me a moron for believing everything I read on the interwebs. Unless...he really does eat babies? Should I remove the reference? Robinr22 (talk) 00:22, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

I dunno. The majority of this discussion could be removed. So I dunno. –anemoneprojectors– 00:27, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Better safe than sorry I guess, mostly because I don't want to have to sell my kidneys for legal fees. Will remove the offending bit and try not to be so guillible in future *hides from angry lawyers* Robinr22 (talk) 00:36, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

It seems to me that a section should be added that mentions that Ryan Giggs was caught up in the super-injunction discussion taking place in England. Super-injunctions and the discussion that is taking place have historical significance - particularly the usefulness of super-injunctions in the modern era (see: http://blogs.forbes.com/kashmirhill/2011/05/09/british-celebs-supposed-secrets-posted-to-twitter/?amp&amp&amp&amp). Moreover, the discussions that are now taking place will shape the law in England on freedom of speech, freedom of the press, privacy, and injunctions for future generations. I can see these events showing up in law journal articles etc in the United States - particularly articles comparing and contrasting the different standards in the U.S. and in England (my personal interest in this event). I'll leave it to others to decide. But, a solid source that acknowledges the existence of this historical event can be found: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/696216-manchester-united-has-ryan-giggs-super-injunction-helped-united-to-epl-title. CavalierLion (talk) 18:31, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Both of these sources are recycling the existing speculation, particularly from Twitter, which is almost invariably unusable in Wikipedia articles per WP:SPS. While names have started to appear in the foreign media, they are simply an echo chamber for the existing speculation which fails WP:BLP. Until a mainstream source reveals the precise contents of the super-injunction, nothing is going in the article.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:38, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo on super-injunctions

In this BBC News interview, Jimmy Wales says: "The Wikipedia community does not allow such things to come on the site unless there is a reliable source which currently there isn't because the newspapers aren't allowed to publish." It should be stressed again that it is the lack of sourcing that prevents the naming of individuals at the moment, not the UK court system. None of the current sources for the super-injunctions go beyond the normal round of web speculation.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:09, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Content of talk pages

Out of curiosity, why does the above edit mention "This includes talk pages of articles.". Surely the talk page is exactly the right place for such discussions to take place without fear of reprisal over violating policy designed to protect the integrity of articles or, more worryingly, UK court injunctions? This part of the discussion comes across as very suspicious to me, I would appreciate clarification on the matter from a wikipedia user other than the above editor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.23.128.190 (talk) 16:27, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you completely. Anyhow, it was reading this talk page when I figured out it was Ryan Giggs that was involved with an unnamed woman(possibly his wife, possibly not). 66.229.90.243 (talk) 00:30, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Criticism

If Information....must be sourced, without exception (sic) most of this biography needs to be removed. I disagree with the above statement that this is not the place for highly controversial information. This is the people's encyclopedia and therefore it should discuss main stream opinons(read Twitter) even if these opions are not true. Given the volume of tweets on this footballer, it would be great to add a few lines to discuss this, but at the same time to make clear there is no evidence to support this.

Regarding BLP violations, is it a violation for a PR company to edit their client's biography ? I am not suggesting this is the case, just wondering if this would be a BLP violation as well ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.84.178 (talk) 20:07, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia might be 'the people's encyclopedia', but it still has policies which must be observed. If a client's PR firm was adding or removing material from an article this is covered by Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. Twitter is not a reliable source, and it is particularkly contentious material, which certainly applies to the rumour involving Giggs, which WP:BLP policy insists must be removed immediately. Philip Cross (talk) 20:23, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

It may be worth to review editors of this biography. I may be completely wrong, but personally I believe this article has been cleaned up by a professional writer. This may quite well have been a dedicated fan of course —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.84.178 (talk) 21:10, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Activisim

According to http://www.unicef.org.uk/UNICEFs-Work/Our-supporters/Celebrities/Ryan-Giggs/ he has been a UNICEF ambassador since August 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.223.124.79 (talk) 12:20, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

ANI thread related to this article

Wikipedia:Ani#edit_violating_worldwide_U.K._injunction.3F, just FYI. Buddy431 (talk) 20:41, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Now archived here. Buddy431 (talk) 22:53, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Assault allegation

Somebody (presumably Giggs' fans or public relations staff) keeps editing out the assault in 1997 that Giggs was absolved of in a Manchester nightclub. This contravenes Wikipedia's policy on balance and fairness as it, whilst not libellous or defamatory as it was reported in many newspapers at the time, is crucial to the image and character definition of Giggs, for all his success. It is important to have Wikipedia police check back and see why this information keeps getting edited out, as it was newsworthy then, and still is, as truth is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.17.226 (talk) 16:58, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

That info should not and will not be included in his Wikipedia article per our policy on the biographies of living people. It is only rumours, speculation and allegations and he was not convicted of anything. If he was convicted of something and that conviction was sourced to a reliable source then we might have a discussion on inclusion. As it is, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information or tid-bits of unconfirmed tabloid gossip from 14 years ago. Woody (talk) 17:09, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Please take your high horse over to the article on OJ Simpson. To my knowledge, he has not been convicted of murder in a criminal case, yet the page is littered with "only rumours, speculation and allegations". Oh wait, you are only making up the rules as you go along. Ooops, sorry, my bad. -anon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.223.199.76 (talk) 21:08, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't have a particularly high horse. Just because one article has degenerated does not mean this one has to and I don't make the rules, if you follow the WP:BLP link you will find the rules there. I didn't make them. Woody (talk) 22:22, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

There is a difference between High as in Elevated, and High as in Stinking. EasyTarget (talk) 14:30, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

There was a story about this in the Sunday Mirror on 15 February 1998, in which Taylor made this claim about the incident in November 1997, but did not press charges. This is all too old and speculative for the article.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:27, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

i wouldn't assume a WP:COI, that unsourced tattle gets deleted, rather it's the football fan cabal. many a PR person has come to grief, when the unflattering is sourced. with the super-injunction red flag, it's a matter of time. Slowking4 (talk) 18:23, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Matter of time before what? Woody (talk) 22:22, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

there is a super-injunction section, just like Fred Goodwin, and Andrew Marr. the British public is aroused.[2], [3] the High Court is not above the "consent of the governed", maybe the commons will act? [4] i applaud your consistent application of "referenced statements", but those references will change. Slowking4 (talk) 14:46, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Family Man

Apparently Ryan Giggs is famously family orientated. Here is a reliable source. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1384757/Your-Secret-Life-So-mention-wife-Hugh---fact-drives-Volvo.html?ito=feeds-newsxml —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.25.22.8 (talk) 23:06, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Confusion

The Wikipedia person said that the reason 'gossip' is not allowed on this page is because there are a lack of sources to back it up. However, then why are the old versions not available to one to examine? Surely there is special treatment given here contray to what he says... normally it would just be removed but one could still look at the version history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.166.156.107 (talk) 16:48, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Edits may be revdeleted if they contain defamatory material. Nothing has been removed that would add significant context to the article.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:14, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Suitable Source.

http://www.sport.es/es/noticias/balon-rosa/20110508/las-apuestas-dicen-que-ryan-giggs-tapado-infiel/997901.shtml

Spanish Newspaper (Errr. well if the Sun etc. are allowed to call themselves newspapers I guess this is too) that does not appear to consider itself covered by a UK injunction. Even if Gigg's PRdophiles here successfully argue that a Spanish Tabloid is not a good source (and they might be right.. god help us if all Tabloid stories were to be considered definitive sources) I think the end of this fiasco is now firmly in sight. EasyTarget (talk) 14:40, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

See Talk:Imogen_Thomas#Sport.es. People have been working themselves into a lather over this Spanish language story, but it just a rehash of speculation.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:44, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Just out of interest; what does it say inside the paywall then? EasyTarget (talk) 14:53, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

There isn't a paywall on the sport.es story, it says that you must log in to post comments. The comments are here and are nothing special. The Daily Mirror cited the sport.es story a few days ago.[5]--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:29, 17 May 2011 (UTC)