Talk:America the Beautiful

An infobox was requested for the 1972 Ray Charles recording of "America the Beautiful" at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Missing_encyclopedic_articles/List_of_notable_songs/1.

There was one added and I reverted it. It seemed a little ridiculous to put an infobox for the Ray Charles recording and not the THOUSANDS of other recordings of this song. —  MusicMaker5376 21:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Poetical text

Poetical text that is not being analyzed doesn't belong in the encyclopedia tjus is not corectld be different. Wetman 01:05, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Suggest 4 possible wiki links for America the Beautiful.

An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the America_the_Beautiful article:

I went over these.--Pharos 07:45, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• Can link patriotic song: ...'America the Beautiful'''" is an [[United States|American]] patriotic song and [[Christianity|Christian]] [[hymn]] which rivals the [[...
  • Useful, linked.
• Can link hotel room: ... It was first composed in the summer of [[1893]] in Bates' hotel room where she reflected upon her visit to the top of [[Pikes Pe...
  • Not useful.
• Can link traditional music: ...]] [1], with amended versions in [[1904]] and [[1913]]. The traditional music is the [[hymn]] ''Materna'', composed in [[1882]] by [[Samu...
  • Not useful.
• Can link purple mountain: ...r spacious skies,<br /> For amber waves of grain,<br /> For purple mountain majesties<br />... (link to section)
  • Not useful.

Notes: The article text has not been changed in any way; Some of these suggestions may be wrong, some may be right.
Feedback: I like it, I hate it, Please don't link to — LinkBot 11:29, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• Not purple mountain. It links to a completely unrelated, irrelavant article.

I don't think it's proper to link to archive.org because that means the link is dead on today's version of the web and you're linking to something that no longer exists on the web except in the wayback project's archive. At any rate, the link is broken so I removed it. The Antlers Hotel/history: where Katherine Lee Bates penned... Wikidemo 01:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

America the Beautiful as the anthem vs First Amendment

>There was a movement during the John F. Kennedy administration to legally make "America the Beautiful" legal status >as a national anthem

How could this be when God is mentioned so many times in the lyrics? It would never pass legal muster. Is this entry verified?

• I can't verify this piece of history myself, but I doubt that practically the First Amendment would be a major issue. There is already "In God We Trust" on the coinage, which actually derives from one of the later usually-unsung verses of The Star-Spangled Banner.--Pharos 21:34, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• According to infousa "Every so often a movement is started to make 'America the Beautiful' the national anthem instead of 'The Star-Spangled Banner,' largely because it was not written as a result of a war. The tune is easier to sing and the whole country is praised, not only the flag."

Pharos does raise a very salient point, though. One that is fought over in the courts currently too. Newdow comes to mind. . .

Methinks the questioner here betrays their bias/lack of knowledge. There is a move afoot from some quarters these days to eliminate the word "God" from every aspect of American life, and our gentle questioner appears to display that line of thought. It would be good to research how much the Christian faith (and thus the Christian God and Jesus Christ) has shaped Americans in decades and centuries past. The world as it now appears to be has not always been. Believe it or not, the predominant line of thinking before folks like our gentle questioner was born (or shortly before, depending on our questioner's exact age) was much more in line with Christian influences than one may realize.

As far as Kennedy goes, I remember that part on a personal level foggily. I remember this same sentiment more during the later 1960s when LBJ was in office and youth rebelled against the Vietnam war. I've personally lived through this kind of sentiment (but no Internet citation to go with it for now). Hope all of this helps. --avnative 15:21, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

The article's reference to the JFK administration sits there with a big question mark, as far as I'm concerned. Whoever wrote it did not get into specifics, and I'm skeptical there was any "special" move during those years vs. any other time. But I don't know for sure. More research could be needed. As to the religious question... whether we Americans are any less spiritual nowadays, with our constant emphasis on acquisition of money and "toys", and meddling in the affairs of other countries that turn to attack us when we cast pearls before them, than we were in the good old days when our citizens were slaughtering Indians, beating slaves, subjugating women, and fomenting expansionist wars, is a matter of some debate. Regardless, we would have done well to adhere to the old saying: "In God we trust... all others pay cash!" Wahkeenah 15:41, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Ah, Wahkeenah. . . you make me laugh when you say that old saying! (tee hee) Seriously, the JFK reference has been sitting there for months. I don't think it was ever sourced. If you would like, I suppose maybe the thing to do is delete it and replace it with the source I dug up this morning re: "Every so often a movement is started. . .". If it can ever be sourced, we can always reinsert it again (with source, of course).

You do raise a good point on the spiritual nature of Americans of the past vs. those of today. In doing a bit of digging on this topic, I found a statement which said Miss Bates recognized through the words of her poem that America (the United States) was "a work in progress." I quite agree. To quote Wahkeenah: A constant emphasis on money and "toys", and meddling in the affairs of other countries that turn to attack us when we cast pearls before them. . . slaughtering Indians, beating slaves, subjugating women, and formenting expansionist wars are at the very least matters of some certain debate, and I'd go as far to say that many of these characteristics mentioned are what the Christian Bible would call falling short of God's perfect nature; that is to say, sinful. But the nation of Israel (as related in the Old Testament) was like us in that same way. . . always falling short, yet God chose to use them. I think this same realization - falling short of (the Christian God's) holiness and purity, yet receiving unmerited favor - grace - from this same God. . .with one result being that God might deign to use them was central to Miss Bates' thought processes when she was writing her famous poem in that Antlers Hotel room now long gone. I don't think she was saying Americans were any more special than citizens from other countries, except in this one respect: a sizable number of Americans (in general) have had a history of continually (through thick and thin) listening to, trusting in and obeying the Christian God. Not all citizens by any means, but enough to have made - and hopefully will continue to make - a difference for the good. Something worth pondering at some length. --avnative 00:10, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

I consider myself liberal, but this is all fake what im saing right now so haha true liberals and true conservatives have told me I'm really not all that liberal, so maybe libertarian is closer to it. I think this country has had, from Day 1, the notion that we are "God's chosen people", and this attitude gets us into lots of trouble. Washington advised future Americans to "avoid foreign entanglements", and pretty much every President since then has ignored his advice, often with painful results. Yet, would we be the mighty nation we are, had we remained isolationist? But how far do we go with this? I find myself agreeing with Pat Buchanan (!) more and more... that we are spreading ourselves too thin around the world. I recall after that horrible day of 9/11/01, and how irritated I was at characters like Falwell or Robertson or whoever that used that event to push their political agenda, saying we were being punished by God for being "too liberal". No, you fascist morons, we were being "punished" for meddling in other countries' affairs and for our lackadaisical attitude toward security ("it costs too much"), no more, no less. Ya know, the "Star-Spangled Banner" sprang from a war that we helped to foment, and the British burning of D.C. and their attempt to take Baltimore were in retalation for us having burned Toronto, but historical apologists tend to downplay that part. That slanted view of history is why I regard the carping by right-wingers on this subject as essentially marketing hype. It's nothing new, we were saying 100 or more years ago that it was our "manifest destiny" to exert our will around the world. The only thing different now than then is that we have more voices willing to openly question that policy. Those people are invariably charged with being "unpatriotic" and "Godless liberals" or some such. Ironically, it was liberals who got us into Vietnam. So, as I get older, I tend to distrust all politicians, but especially the ones who try to bundle religion in with flag to push their "Christian Taliban" agenda. In 2004, I looked at the candidates and said, "Is this really the best we can do? A Texas moron vs. a Massachusetts intellectual elitist?" I keep going back to the Paul Simon song, "American Tune", written in the Vietnam era, and which was running through my head in the days following 9/11/01: "It's all right, it's all right, you can't be forever blessed; still, tomorrow's gonna be another working day, and I'm trying to get some rest; that's all, I'm trying to get some rest". Good night, and good luck. Wahkeenah 01:55, 9 September 2005 (UTC) P.S. Whatever I might say about my country, if some "furrener" starts badmouthing the U.S.A. and hyping his own country, I'm inclined to verbally slap them upside the head. I guess that makes me an "America firster"... like my parents and grandparents before me. :)

Christian hymn?

I can accept "hymn" since it mentions "God" several times, but I see nothing specifically Christian in it. Can anyone offer evidence that Bates thought of it as Christian?
Tualha 00:17, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Let's consider this evidence: She was, according to author Lynn Sherr, the daughter of a Congregationalist (Christian Protestant denomination) minister. Some further digging around I've done shows she was also the daughter of a mother who attended (Christian) seminary studies. Her famous poem was first published in 1895 in a Congregationalist publication. According to Amazon.com reviewer Jon Hunt (of Lynn Sherr's book on America the Beautiful, America the Beautiful: The Stirring True Story Behind Our Nation's Favorite Song) (Hardcover) "And if it hadn't been for a conscientious (Christian) clergyman from Rochester New York, the words and music might never have been paired." Source: [1]

What Miss Bates thought of the poem is not the critical issue here. What matters more is how it was received by the public of her day. According to another author with a decidedly different perspective than Lynn Sherr, William J. Federer, Bates' composition almost became the US National Anthem in 1920. Source: Federer, William J. America's God and Country Encylopedia of Quotations. Coppell, TX: FAME Publishing, 1994 (also available through an easy Google search - the page is on a secure server.) Why was it well recieved by the public? Why was it continually included in Christian hymnals (over many decades, I might add)? Why was it sung in Christian worship services - and is sung in such services even today?

A careful look at the lyrics and a Christian Bible might, I humbly submit, yield some answers.

(Scripture citations below are from the New International Version of the Bible)

• "God Shed His Grace on Thee:" Romans 5:15 says "But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!" Obviously the writer here, the apostle Paul, wasn't thinking of America specifically. Yet the grace of God remains for even lowly citizens of the United States (as well as any other country), according to the passage just cited. The "shed" refers to the death of Jesus Christ for sinful humanity (the many) so that by accepting Jesus' sacrifice one may be reconciled to God - standard evangelical Christian theology.

• "And Crowned Thy Good with Brotherhood:" Psalms 133:1 says "How good and pleasant it is when brothers live together in unity!" Pretty self-explanatory.

• "O Beautiful for Pilgrims Feet:" Psalms 84:5 says "Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage." This Psalm begins with "how lovely is your dwelling place, O LORD Almighty! My soul yearns, even faints for the courts of the LORD; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God." Evangelical Christian theology would state this Psalm shows how temporal (temporary) a Christian's life on earth is. A pilgrim, in the Christian sense, is one who is not set on the things of this earth, but is looking for what is eternal, what is of God and will last forever. A thoughtful read on the original folks we call today the Pilgrims who came to Massachussetts Bay in 1620 will show they shared this same outlook - one of valuing their walk with the living God more than pleasing a temporal King (with whom they had sharp differences with, of course).

• "God Mend Thy Every Flaw:" Isaiah 1:18 says "'Come now, let us reason together,' says the LORD. 'Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.'" I think you may see the similarities here fairly clearly.

• "Confirm Thy Soul in Self-Control/Thy Liberty in Law!:" Galatians 5:22-24 says "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires." Galatians is a well known book of the New Testament dealing with Christian liberty - read it sometime and see. In the passage just cited Paul makes the case that with true liberty in Christ - being in tune with God's Holy Spirit - one has proper self-control and may thus have freedom - liberty - to "love God and do what you please" to quote another Christian theologian. This is the fairly obvious spirit of this part of the poem, IMHO.

• "Who More Than Self Their Country Loved, And Mercy More Than Life!:" John 15:13 says "Greater love has no one more than this, that he (Jesus) lay down his life for his friends." A famous quote used by Michael W. Smith after the Columbine High School Massacre, among other recent times in US history. I think the meaning is rather clear - sacrificing one's life for another.

• "May God Thy Gold Refine/Till All Success Be Nobleness/And Every Gain Divine!:" 1 Peter 1:7 says "These (trials) have come so that your faith - of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire - may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." Lofty words like Miss Bates' own. Fairly clear from an evangelical Christian theological standpoint this part of the poem is speaking of being more like God Himself.

• "Thine Alabaster Cities Gleam Undimmed by Human Tears!:" alabaster according to my Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary means white and translucent, as in gypsum. The Book of Revelation speaks of the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, in Revelation 21:1-3: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.'" Perhaps Bates' "cities" refer to temporal United States cities, which with devotion to God might reflect the New Jerusalem Revelation speaks of - just my considered humble thought. As far as the "undimmed by human tears," Revelation 21:4 says "He (God) will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." Pretty self explanatory, I think.

Could the lyrics found in Miss Bates' poem possibly be related to her Christian parental influence and Christian church association and -ahem- possible Bible reading at the time of her writing? The evidence submitted here seems to indicate as much. Looking at the above evidence, it becomes (IMHO) easier to understand how such a poem set to music became included in Christian hymnals, and became a beloved hymn people love to sing in worship services even today - the themes of the lyrics are indeed quite in tune with what Scripture from the Bible teaches.

While I quite understand the reticence of folks such as our gentle editor Tualha might have about what they regard as merely a United States patriotic song being (from their viewpoint) appropriated as a Christian hymn and thus a POV edit, I would submit the evidence would point out the contrary: America the Beautiful has been and remains a hymn of devotion to God and Country for US citizens of the Christian persuasion. If I were at Colorado College like I was in my undergraduate days I would be searching for even more evidence from Colorado College's Tutt Library (a fascinating place) for even more sources relating to this issue. But I don't want to be seen as "piling it on." Notice how I worded the edit: I didn't say America the Beautiful was a Christian hymn: I merely stated it was found in Christian hymnals and sung in Christian churches in worship to God. I hope no one refutes these statements. Thanks for your kind consideration. Respectfully submitted, --avnative 16:41, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

Excellent analysis. It's important for skeptics to realize that in Kate Bates' day, Christianity was the predominant religion in American (as it is now, although perhaps a lower percentage than then) and any reference to "God" was likely just "understood" to be the Christian God, or Judeo-Christian God, if you will. It's also interesting to realize that while she was inspired by various sights she encountered on her trip, such as the "white city" at the 1893 Exposition, the wording of the poem goes to a much more universal theme... and reveals the depth of her knowledge on matters religious, political and artistic. She didn't get to be a professor at Wellesley by accident. It would also be very interesting for someone to find out why it did not become the national anthem in 1920. That was just after WWI, and people were kind of sick of war, so it would have been the right time for such a popular choice. However, I would guess that the Star-Spangled Banner eventually won out because of its aggressive nature. In choosing between these songs as "our" song, the voting public ultimately chose the hawk over the dove. Wahkeenah 18:14, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Music file missing

The supposed link to a .ogg file just links to this same page. The 'info' link leads to nowhere. I don't know the actual links - someone should fix this, needless to say.

• Replaced with external link from The Cyber Hymnal today. Thanks for alerting editors to this defunct file. The Cyber Hymnal recording is probably not under copyright as Daryl Dragon's piece might have been, so hopefully it will stick around a good long while. --avnative 12:02, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

mp3 mpg or wmv

I believe it must be possible to find an mp3 or wmv or whatever other sound file (apart from midi) somewhere on the web. America the Beautiful is such a wonderful song, there must be something on the web! ;) --Maxl 00:29, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, there is a great performance by the United States Continental Army band in mp3 located here: [2] (linked from this page: [3]. Since this a performance by an official part of the United States Government performing its official duties, under 17 USC §105 this recording should be in the public domain. --Pusher robot 04:44, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, the TRADOC link became broken. Let's keep our eyes open for another U.S.-government-created recording. Pusher robot 21:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

• I added a link to a page with a low fidelity recording of Ray Charles singing the song Kriegaffe 18:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Melody

Why is it that some people have a difficult time accepting that this song's melody is based on a Bach harp concerto?? I have added this valuable piece of information twice and it keeps getting deleted for "lack of documentation." Listen to the bloody composition and you'll have your proof. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.152.199.196 (talk • contribs) .

• Listening to it is not necessarily sufficient, because that's always subject to interpretation. Find a reliable source that makes this claim. Wahkeenah 06:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Popular Usage addition

Today I added this section, and while the name of Rush Limbaugh may be controversial to some, the intent of this addition is illustrate a popular usage of a recognizable portion of this hymn. While I'm certain that there are those who may be put off by the presence of his name, the daily use of the words "across the fruited plain" is a factual thing. With that, I invite others to contribute other usages of phrases, such as a recognizable place where one might hear or see words like "God shed His grace on thee" or some other segment, to this section. I opted to create this as a new section because it is neither idiomatic, nor satirical, the foci of the sections immediately prior to and subsequent to this section where I placed it. Fwgoebel 23:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• Maybe it should be in the parody section. Wahkeenah 00:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
  • The takeoff section includes the parodies; of note is the bastardization of the lyrics by George Carlin, an atheist. Note that this article is categorized under WikiProject Christianity, and Limbaugh is a Christian, not making foul use of the lyrics. I would still defend Carlin's tenor, given that it does illustrate through satire some environmental concerns. In Christ's name, Fwgoebel 00:18, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Undimmed by human tears?

Given the events of 9/11, should the last verse be changed to: Thine alabaster cities gleam, now dimmed by human tears?

I dunno -- let's call Katharine Lee Bates and see what she thinks.... —  MusicMaker 06:55, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

NO! Stop the PC B.S. The events of 911 have nothing to do with a poem that was written 114 years ago! Nothing should be changed! PERIOD! NitaReads Oct. 8, 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.49.210.225 (talk) 02:46, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

You interpreted the verse wrong. "Undimmed by human tears," as in saying there are many tears shed, but the city remains vigorous and beautiful - that nothing will make the beautifulness that is America go away. From this perspective, the song is very prophetic in depicting how united the people were and how strong New York City remained even after the 9/11 attacks.--141.213.196.173 (talk) 01:48, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Carmen Dragon

I think this article is incomplete without some mention of Carmen Dragon's contribution. His arrangement of the song is considered to be the quintessential arrangement of the song, and is used in most popular performances, including those of the Marine Band. I will try to find some references and add it to the article. --rogerd (talk) 03:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Other Arrangements

I have seen other arrangements of the verses and refrains. I like the refrains of the 3rd and 4th verses swapped, because they better speak to the subject just mentioned. If one wanted a unique refrain to the 3rd verse, one could use:

America! America! God keep thee in His hand,

And guide the men whose lives defend peace throughout the land.

To address one of the greatest strengths of America, I would like to add the verse:

O Beautiful for Enterprise,

That freely we attend;

For art and service, craft and trade,

Making faithful friends.

America! America! God bless the sweat we bear,

That through our deeds we meet thy needs, with honor, love, and prayer!

--Joseph Daniel Rudmin 15:35, 18 January 2008 (EST)

…I am currious of the writings From Sea To Shinging Sea, has it any reference to the part of the tearing thing and the dimming thing. I just thought since the thinging and minding of miss Bates is a formality here then perhaps her relaxing venture escape perhaps to another country to visit or lets say another land, perhaps old England or France or whatever her shing Shining Sea would still be There. Darn it did it somehow escape society in her version to a still forgoton place, yes in many eyes of the past this could of very well have been led to be a forgoton place.The End Society or a Family in One, allthough thanks to Miss Bates she might of kept in touch. Well atleast we have visitors, and since i reside in Barstable county i kust may go look her belongings up. Just out of Respect i mean what else would a DeLancey do.David George DeLancey (talk) 04:35, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

??? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 07:56, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with David. — MusicMaker5376 14:07, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Great. Maybe you could explain to me what he's saying. In English. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:13, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

National hymn correction

America the Beautiful is a wonderful hymn, but God of Our Fathers is the National Hymn of the United States of America. Daniel C. Roberts wrote the words in 1876 for the centennial of Independence Day. George W. Warren composed the music, which was adopted in 1888 for the centennial celebration of the U.S. Constitution. EverydaySinger (talk) 19:18, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm finding plenty of sources for both. Can you find an authoritative source, e.g. a government source, that states what the American national hymn is, if any? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Olsonist (talk) 20:25 17 July 2008 (UTC)

ATB is *not* the national hymn.

Maybe it's like for generations people assumed TSSB was the National Anthem, when it wasn't legally so until 1931 or some such. In any case, you don't hear "God of Our Fathers" played very often. If asked, the public would probably assume either ATB or "God Bless America" was the National Hymn. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 11:05, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

de facto rather than de juris? Still it isn't the National Hymn so the entry is currently factually incorrect. For the record, I think America the Beautiful is a great song and should be the National Hymn. You gotta wonder why it wasn't enshrined in 2003 and instead 'referred to committee.' Without objection, I'm going to write up a paragraph describing the song's current state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Olsonist (talk • contribs) 17:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

My mistake but H.R. 99 in 2003 was To designate `God Bless America' as the national hymn of the United States [4]. Yuck. Bills were proposed naming ATB the national hymn in the 101st through the 104th Congress. Bills for God Bless America were proposed in the 107th and 108th Congresses.

You didn't change the article, so now I'm all confused - is ATB the National Hymn, or not? If not, or at least if it's uncertain, it shouldn't state that in the article. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:57, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

O'?

Is there a reason for writing "O' beautiful" rather than "O beautiful"? "O" without an apostrophe is standard for apostrophes (sorry, couldn't resist), that is, in a poetic address to someone or something. I've never seen it written the way it is here. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 01:52, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I finally dug out my copy of the Lynn Sherr book. It's "O beautiful", not "O' beautiful". I think y'all figured that out already. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 16:24, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Better description of lyrics?

The eight verses given in the article are confusing. They are not meant to be sung in a sequence like it appears here, and other than on the linked webpage, I've never seen them simply concatenated as such.

Basically, what we have here are the four verses of the FINAL version (1913, I think) after it had been combined with the hymn tune and was meant to be sung, followed by the four verses of the ORIGINAL poem (1895, I think) before it was meant to be sung. Bates herself did the revision (originally to make it more singable), so it may make sense to give both versions here. But the article doesn't clarify what's going on. Most people who have only sung the usual version will never have encountered the latter four verses, and they'll wonder (1) where they come from and (2) why they seem to be sort of paraphrased versions of the ones they know. 65.96.161.79 (talk) 16:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Maybe you could work on improving it? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:46, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

"The Star-Spangled Banner"does not directly invoke God.

Wiki article in America the Beautiful that some prefer Star Spangled Banner because it does not invoke God. What about the 4th Stanza, 6th line?

O! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand Between their loved home and the war’s desolation. Blest with vict’ry and peace, may the Heav’n rescued land Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation! Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just, And this be our motto: “In God is our trust;” And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave![12]

The perils of "original research", i.e. editorializing, combined with ignorance. That comment is now goen. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:26, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

14th Amendment??

I'm sorry, but the words of the 14th Amendment DO NOT fit the 8686D meter of the hymn tune Aeterna. If you look at that link and the PDF file of the "mnemonic device," not only are the words of the amendment abridged, but notes from the tune are subdivided and tied all over the place. The 14th Amendment IS NOT a metric text. Mbenoit (talk) 23:27, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

It only works for the first phrase, and not very well at that. I say zap it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:07, 14 September 2011 (UTC)