Talk:Religious order (Catholic)

Let revitalize this article!

What needs work now? I think the introduction is a good start. Dominick ^(TALK) 13:22, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Changes made to the introduction

I would like to discuss the changes made to the introduction. I know it needed work (since I did much of it), but it included what distinguishes orders from other types of consecrated life.

1. First, the references to the code of Canon Law were taken out.
2. Then, several errors were introduced:

a)"Catholic religious orders are one of the two types of consecrated life in the Roman Catholic Church." There are not only two form of consecrated life but many. There are institutes of consecrated life (religious institutes and secular institutes) and there are consecrated individuals (consecrated virgins, consecrated widows, consecrated hermits). There are also the societies of apostolic life, closely related to the institutes of consecrated life, but with some differences.

b)"Religious orders, also know as Religious Institutes, are..." Religious order are technically not religious institutes, since the religious institutes include religious orders and religious congregations, that though today are the same for practical matters, they were not in the past, and they are still listed separately in the annuario pontifical and have its own Wiki article.

c)"... who live a common life following a religious rule or constitution under the leadership of a religious superior... they bind themselves to this form of living by taking public vows in accordance with the norms of church law." a) Common life distinguishes the orders from consecrated individuals; b) all orders (like all congregations) follow a rule or constitution under the leadership of a religious superior; c) public vows distinguishes orders from institutes whose members profess private vows. Why were this essential characteristics of religious orders taken out?

I'll go ahead and undo the changes, while waiting for the fruit of this discussion. Thanks.--Coquidragon (talk) 02:59, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I was asked to start looking at this page. Right now I have very little time due to work issues, but the first issue I see is this paragraph. "They may additionally profess to obey certain guidelines for living, since each order has its peculiar charism. Religious vows are to be distinguished from Holy Orders, the sacrament which bishops, priests, and deacons receive. Hence, members of religious orders are not part of the hierarchy, unless they are also ordained priests or deacons. Members of religious orders are sometimes referred to as "priest-monks", the term "hieromonks" is more commonly used among the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches." This in my humble opinion seems to blur the line between secular/religious and lay/ordained. They are all different things. You can be secular/ordained, religious/ordained, religious/lay and secular/lay. Discussing whether religious priests are part of the hierarchy or not is also confusing since hierarchy in the general term is everyone in the church, if you mean the specific governing body of the church, USUALLY religious order members, whether priest or not are not part of the hierarchy. Especially if they are part of the exempt religious order (i.e. Franciscan.) Individual members of Orders do not answer to local Bishops, they only answer to their respective ministers, who in turn answer to their superiors etc. They operate with permission of local Bishop but answer through other channels. Where this really gets complicated is where you have Orders made up of diocesan priests and stuff like that. Marauder40 (talk) 12:51, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Pardon me, if I am being too bold. I have replaced the current text with something that is at least sourced. More work is needed. Esoglou (talk) 14:50, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Most of what you added doesn't really belong in the lead. It seems more a definition of what vows are and things like whether a religious can marry definitely should be left for the body. I also am not real sure about the removal of the "Four branches of Religious Orders" section. It explains what the four branches are, the next section doesn't do that.Marauder40 (talk) 15:06, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I presume that, before discussing the matter, you don't feel a need to revert my first edit to the previous version that you already found defective. So let us discuss it. Since what made religious orders different from congregations, in the times when the distinction was important, was precisely the question of solemn vows, I think we need to explain what solemn vows are. We can't omit mention of them. Could you shorten the explanation, please?

On the Annuario Pontificio matter, you will see that, not only were the four branches categories already distinguished in the table at the end of the article, but I have added more context to the list. Esoglou (talk) 15:37, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I never said that discussion of vows shouldn't happen in the article. I just don't think the detail that was added to the lead needs to be in the lead. It should briefly be mentioned there and the rest belongs in the body. The lead should summarize the body and none of that is currently in the body. As for the "Annuario Pontifico matter", I think the summaries of what a mendicant order vs. the other types of orders that was in the original article actually fit. Yes I know there are links to the different articles but brief summaries in this article would be cleaner. I am not real sure what a listing of all the orders in the article itself really buys the article. It probably should be left for either a List page or for the sub-pages themselves (i.e. Mendicant orders listed on the Mendicant page.)Marauder40 (talk) 15:51, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Better now? Esoglou (talk) 16:45, 23 September 2011 (UTC)