Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 12

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Seventh Day Adventist

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Seventh-day Adventist Church (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Dispute overview Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here? i keep correcting it but editor keeps reverting it back. it is incorrect information which is written on their site especially in the opening paragraph which is what i am correcting. firstly and foremostly it is not a christian denomination. it is a religion that began in the mid 1800's. to be christian denomination one must believe Jesus is God. John chapter one, In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word WAS God. ... and the word became flesh.." In the founders writings Ellen G Wight implicitly states " 'The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God almighty'. Ellen G.White (1903, ms 150, SDA Commentary V.p 1129). The second is they state that Jesus used to be Michael the arch angel. . I dont want my corrections to be refused. It makes Wiki a very poor source of information if it doesn't allow the truth or the facts. Users involved Who is involved in the dispute? Chris elliott (talk · contribs) 203.31.34.130 (talk · contribs) Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".) Not yet. N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Seventh Day Adventist}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page. Resolving the dispute Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken? How do you think we can help? By not changing the changes I make. They are verified with references. 203.31.34.130 (talk) 23:18, 7 November 2011 (UTC) Seventh Day Adventist discussion Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand. Please list above and notify all editors involved in the article talk page discussion, then change the notification status from "Not yet" to "Yes" if you wish to continue with this dispute. — TransporterMan (TALK) (as DRN clerk) 03:42, 8 November 2011 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

New Amsterdam (TV series)

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. New Amsterdam (TV series) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Dispute overview Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here? The article regards a tv series about an immortal. The section in question (about the events in his immortal life) has undergone some back and forth and tendentious and accusatory discussion on the article talk page. As the focus of the tendentious posts, I am likely going to address that user's (Barsoomian's) conduct via another noticeboard. That leaves the content dispute remaining to be resolved/mediated/refereed/whatever. We are trying to find middle ground on: Whether the section should present as a table of dates and information, or be avoided altogether (as evidenced in other articles about immortal characters or articles about characters of FA quality) Whether some of the information being presented as accompanying information for events within this section are at least partly OR/SYN or have been culled explicitly from the primary source itself. Users involved Who is involved in the dispute? Jack Sebastian (talk · contribs) MJBurrage (talk · contribs) Barsoomian (talk · contribs) Barsoomian's behavior has muddied the waters, making more difficult to resolve what should be a fairly straight-forward issue. Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".) Not yet. N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=New Amsterdam (TV series)}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page. Resolving the dispute Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken? I have sought to defuse the situation via the talk page, apologizing for any perceived slights and seeking input from the other users. I have initiated discussions on each of the other two user's talk pages (MJBurrage about the initial reverting edits, and Barsoomian about civility and tendentious user conduct). How do you think we can help? I have initiated an RfC regarding the content, but I am thinking that some more eyes on the dual issues of section format and sourcing issues might make for a more stable discussion. Such would definitely make for a better article. Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:51, 8 November 2011 (UTC) New Amsterdam (TV series) discussion Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Iraqi Turkmens

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Iraqi Turkmens (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Dispute overview Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here? There is currently a dispute regarding the Iraqi Turkmen article. Somebody seems to continuously create new accounts in order to remove my edits. The main issues include: They keep removing the 1957 Iraqi Census They keep removing the detailed introduction They keep removing pretty much anything that says "Turkish" [even though the community themselves have declared it their language] All new material which I contribute is continuously reverted to an old version of the article. Users involved Who is involved in the dispute? Turco85 (talk · contribs) MamRostam03 (talk · contribs) If you look at archive 1 of the discussion page you will see that this article has previously been disputed. I’m assuming that it is the same individual[s] but with a new user name. Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".) Yes. N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Iraqi Turkmens}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page. Resolving the dispute Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken? I have previously tried to resolve this issue (see archive 1 of the discussion page) but due to my long absence it never got resolved. Recently, there has been a minor edit war whilst I was trying to improve the article. I have tried to resolve the issue on the talk page but my edits are still being removed and I feel as though I am not being taken seriously by this user. Furthermore, I have used sources which was already in the bibliography [and is still being used by this user] yet they remove my contributions which come from the same source. How do you think we can help? I need guidance on what I should do as I do not usually report anything. I strongly believe in using a range of academic sources [one can see this through my contributions]; however, this certain individual questions every single reference I use. I just don’t know what to do anymore. I am only really active on Mondays and Tuesdays and therefore feel as though this issue will never get resolved. Turco85 (Talk) 18:51, 1 November 2011 (UTC) Iraqi Turkmens discussion Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand. I will allow the Discussion page to speak for my actions on this page. I am merely trying to prevent incorrect information being inserted - and reliable academic sources deleted - by this user. MamRostam03 (talk) 19:30, 1 November 2011 (UTC) I feel as though MamRostam03 has not even read any of the sources, this is evident in the discussion page as they will not accept the fact that the sources say that the community speaks "Turkish". Furthermore, I do not understand why this user has removed the detailed introduction and demographics sections as well as removing the 1957 Iraqi Census.Turco85 (Talk) 21:14, 1 November 2011 (UTC) Hi there Turco85 and MamRostam03, and thanks for posting to this board. I've had a look over the talk page, and it seems there are several issues with sourcing and with possible undue weight. I think this case would be served well by mediation - would you both be willing to open a case at the Mediation Cabal? All the best — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 08:24, 4 November 2011 (UTC) Sure, any neutral observer is welcome (remember to keep in your mind that "Turkmen", "Turkish" and "Turkic" are not interchangeable words - although in translation, sometimes they are confused). MamRostam03 (talk) 19:27, 8 November 2011 (UTC) Hi Mr. Stradivarius, sure I'm willing to do that.Turco85 (Talk) 09:07, 4 November 2011 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Usage share of operating systems, Usage share of web browsers

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Usage share of operating systems (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Usage share of web browsers (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Dispute overview Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here? We are currently at a standstill in our discussion about the use of the median to summarize statistical data. On the one side, several editors (6+) feel that the use of the median and the resulting graph is well within the guidelines of wikipedia policy and also that it improves the quality of the page by making it easier to read. The other side feels that it constitutes original research and want the median and graph removed or altered. This debate has come up several times throughout the 2+ years that the median has been on the page. Each time there has been a consensus which resulted in keeping the median on the page. But this recent discussion has resulted in a standstill with equal (or close to equal) number of editors on each side. Users involved Who is involved in the dispute? czarkoff (talk · contribs) WhatamIdoing (talk · contribs) Jdm64 (talk · contribs) Harumphy (talk · contribs) 1exec1 (talk · contribs) Dilaudid (talk · contribs) Dmcq (talk · contribs) Wikiolap (talk · contribs) Professor marginalia (talk · contribs) Useerup (talk · contribs) Jasper Deng (talk · contribs)  Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".) Yes. N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Usage share of operating systems, Usage share of web browsers}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page. Resolving the dispute Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken? A lengthy discussion has been done, but the editors are split, both in support and opposition to the use of the median. How do you think we can help? We need a clear outside opinion about wikipedia's policy regarding the use of a median and if it would be considered original research. Jdm64 (talk) 00:22, 11 November 2011 (UTC) Usage share of operating systems, Usage share of web browsers discussion Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand. Clerk's Comment: I observe that there is a fairly recent (7 days) RFC on the Operating Systems page with a No-Consensus closure. I also observe that there hasn't been any discussion on the web browsers page. While I do note that there is a bunch of text blocks of viewpoint on the OS page, I think it's still too early for people who aren't hip deep in the issue to understand it. I also think that some sort of outside opinion (RFC, 3O, etc.) and discussion needs to occur on the web browser page before it comes here. Hasteur (talk) 01:19, 11 November 2011 (UTC) I was going to comment here as an outsider, but I've just seen the Clerk's well reasoned comments. I commented at WP:OR where someone is attempting to change policy to legitimate the current state of the article. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:35, 11 November 2011 (UTC) There are several issues I would like to raise according to this observation: Both pages are brought here as they share a common problem of representation of statistical data. The RfC on Operating Systems talk page did form two factions that fail to move towards consensus. To date the discussion didn't raise any indications that the dispute can be solved without external intervention. Page history suggests an ongoing edit war. These points led several participants to the conclusion that the dispute resolution process should be brought to next level. Briefly, the positions of the aforementioned factions: The Median line contents the statistical operation that is applied to the sources that are not sampling from the same population. This is regarded as violation of WP:OR, as the statistical calculations are in the scope of professional knowledge and no reliable sources provided to support this way of calculation. Furthermore, if such sources existed, the calculation would violate WP:CALC policy and thus can't be included anyway. The statistical data collected in the article from multiple sources needs to be properly summarised, so that the readers who came for the information about the actual usage share of operating systems (or web browsers) would not be forced to calculate it. Furthermore, the lack of such summary is a violation of WP:NOTSTATSBOOK, WP:LINKFARM, WP:NOTDIR and WP:NOT PAPERS, and thus the articles in questions would need to be deleted. The use of median is considered to be a trivial calculation and the sampling problem is considered unavoidable regardless of summary issue. P.S.: As I am a member of the latter faction, I may have expressed the former position in a biased manner. Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 02:29, 11 November 2011 (UTC) I think this is clear. Please note that I am in no way involved, just a respondent to the RfC. Could you delete my name from the list of those involved, thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:50, 11 November 2011 (UTC) I am against the median line in the text, but not against the graphic if the description below it is changed. I think it can be considered as falling under WP:IMAGES#Pertinence and encyclopedic nature "Consequently, images should look like what they are meant to illustrate, even if they are not provably authentic images". Whatever was done to the figures something reasonably similar would come out just what was done was in essence little more than sticking a finger in the air and shouldn't be cloaked as a routine statistical procedure. Dmcq (talk) 10:27, 11 November 2011 (UTC) Hi there, people. I'm a mediator here at the DRN and hope we can reach a satisfactory conclusion. Firstly, as has been mentioned, we do need remember that there has been an RfC, which ended in no consensus. The key policy here seems to be WP:OR and specifically WP:CALC - essentially, if the median is a routine calculation, it can be included; if it is not a routine calculation, it should not be included. WP:CALC seems on what a routine calculation is, allowable calculations include "adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age". It seems to me that a routine calculation simply presents information from the sources, in a slightly different way, in a manner which is uncontroversial (for example, saying that someone born in 1991 is 20 won't be disputed). The problem with any statistics used is that they are not just re-presenting the sources; they are manipulating them. There need to be a clear reason why the median is important enough to be included in the article - why not any other statistical analysis, for example? Thus, it seems to me that any statistical calculations are not routine, so should not be included without support from sources. ItsZippy (talk • contributions) 20:09, 11 November 2011 (UTC) Hi. Just one little point. A calculation isn't "routine" or not in the abstract, but in context. Here, if I'm correct, the data being medianed has come from different sources and may have been collected in different ways. People speak colloquially of "adding apples and oranges". Addition is a routine calculation par excellence. But there is a difference between "5 apples + 3 apples = 8 apples", routine in every way, and "5 apples + 3 oranges = 8 pieces of fruit". Here perhaps we are closer to "5 apple trees + 3 slivers of orange peel = 8 fruit-related objects". Itsmejudith (talk) 20:23, 11 November 2011 (UTC) This is fairly evident. The problem here is whether such calculation is appropriate if there is a special notice stating that the result may be inaccurate due to the problems discussed above. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 20:43, 11 November 2011 (UTC) I agree that the key issue is WP:OR, but it is far from the only issue. I am the editor who brought up these concern in this latest round (at least som of them have been debated before). Some of the issues have been more debate than others. After having debated this on the talk page I believe I can now categorize them a little better: Policy concerns (key issue, if you will): Is the median calculation a routine calculation, which is the only type of calculation allowed under WP:CALC. The median as calculated in the articles in question is calculated over multiple sources, thus probably WP:SYN. The sources are selected by WP editors, and no source supports such a synthesis. Professional concerns: The sources are disparate and do not express a true sampling. Each source may be based on a sound sampling method within its limits, but there are multiple problems with the selection of sources: The sources are themselves statistics with recognized selection biases (demographic, geographical/cultural, sampling periods, usage patterns). Some demographics and cultural regions are not represented. This can be handled for each source by labeling it with its potential bias. But when "summarizing" in a median these biases are ignored. The potential population behind each source's demographic (its weight if you will) is unknown. It is unclear what the medians represent. When displaying them in a line in a table, each OS or browser side by side, comparison is implied. When plotting them in a graph, comparison is explicit. But medians calculated this way are not comparable and it is impossible to get proponents of the median to explain what they actually express, other than "the median". A strong indication that there is a serious violation of professional statistics principles here is in the fact that the medians do not add up to 100%. In the browser usage share article they exceed 100%, in the OS usage share article they fall well short of 100%. Furthermore, when adding the individual Windows version together one arrives at another number than the median of all Windows versions. This raises serious concerns as to the applicability of median, and I really would like a recognized expert to vet this. Anyway, it certainly drives the point home that this is not a routine calculation. The sources do not collect data in the same way. Specifically, some sources do not collect statistics for mobile units. Thus, in those sources the usage shares are distributed on fewer observations (desktop operating systems/browsers), causing them to have a higher relative usage shares for desktops compared to the sources which include mobile unit shares. WP editors have recognized that this may skew the median and has taken it upon themselves to "correct" these numbers, adjusting them by a factor derived from the other sources. One has to remember that those other sources may sample a vastly different population. Useerup (talk) 20:30, 11 November 2011 (UTC) Based on my reading of the explanations here, and on the RfC, I think that the median is a synthesis of the "source" data into something that is more readable by the average reader. I think it would probably be appropriate to cease including the median and focus on reporting the graphs to give a rough comparison for the different sampling systems so that users can form viewpoints on the available data. Hasteur (talk) 20:42, 11 November 2011 (UTC) These pages are filled with dry statistical data that's hard to read. That's why the use of a graph is important. We currently have 9 sources for the OS stats. Picking any single source would be bias. Making a graph with all the sources isn't any easier to read than just the numbers by themselves, and visually you'll calculate the median any ways. I think that's where the use of the median came in to generate the current graph. Maybe there needs to be some changes, but I don't think the median/graph was ever portraying original research, maybe the wording could be improved. Jdm64 (talk) 22:18, 11 November 2011 (UTC) Article already does a good job of explaining potential bias for the sources. However, the case has not been made that these sources combined are representative for the usage shares, i.e. are they global usage shares? Where's China? Are they western hemisphere usage shares? It is misleading to calculate a median or plot them as single shares in a graph. It is entirely possible to produce a graph which displays all or most of the sources and still illustrate shares (see attached image) without visually calculating median or even implying it. Note that I have not "uncorrected" the numbers which had been corrected by WP editors to account for those sources which do not sample mobile visitors. That the page consists of dry statistical data does not allow us to introduce WP:OR. If the page is only statistical data, perhaps it should be scaled back a little? Useerup (talk) 05:43, 12 November 2011 (UTC) If the page already does a good job of explaining the bias, why can't the use of a median to create a graph also be explained? I like your image better than the last attempt at showing all stats in one page. I still find it visually cluttered and henceforth not much better than raw data. But if the median can't be used, the image would be a good compromise. Maybe it would be better if the sort order was different -- ordered by the bias. Jdm64 (talk) 08:17, 12 November 2011 (UTC) The median is original research both because it is not a routine calculation and because it is a synthesis over multiple sources. Each of those by itself would make it OR, and we have both. This is a core content policy question and has nothing to do with whether the sources individually have known biases or not. That said, the way the median has been applied here and the way the result is used is professionally questionable. The median - when applied correctly - can neutralize outliers can find a central tendency. But that requires that you have a good idea that such a central tendency exists in the first place. In this case we know that every single one of the samples has some form of bias. There is no central tendency between apple trees and slivers of orange peels, and trying to pass a number for it is a logical fallacy. Going back to how the median is then used it is passed as a "share" of something. That "something" is an elusive beast, because it certainly is not the total operating system usage. At best it is each medians share of the sum of all medians. Quite simply, the median is being used in ways which are not statistically sound. So: median is original research for two separate reasons (not routine calculation, synthesis of multiple sources) and it is professionally questionable, at best. Regarding the graph, I believe that 2 graphs should be used: One for sources which only break out desktop usage shares, another for the sources which break out mobile usage share as well. I have no opinion on the sort order of the sources at this point, but I am sure we can work something out. My point with the horizontal bars was to avoid presenting the sources as something which could be mistaken for a development or timeline Useerup (talk) 15:19, 12 November 2011 (UTC) That would have been a viable approach if the article was about calculation of the usage shares. But littering it with instruction on how to produce an end result will actually lead to a produced end result, so including such result instead seems to be intact with WP:SENSE and general goal of Wikipedia — to inform readers. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:39, 12 November 2011 (UTC) We need to remember that it is not our job to provide accurate statistics; our role is merely to report what others have published. Statistical analysis is just that - analysis of numbers. As with any other subject, an analysis of anything should only be included if it has been made in another source. That is not the case here. ItsZippy (talk • contributions) 20:56, 11 November 2011 (UTC) As I get it You assume that the Median line under these articles constitutes the statistical research of the results of statistic research. The problem as I see it is that actually the median line is not a statistical research, but instead is a form of representation of statistical research carried out by professional researchers and properly cited in the table. The very line is just a summary that would be naturally concluded by user, so that the inclusion of the Median line is simply the trivial calculation which is implied by readers anyway, so it just saves readers' time for calculating it on per reference basis. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:38, 12 November 2011 (UTC) Yes that is the problem. We are allowed to do something like that in illustrations but the OR policy is definitely against doing it in the main text except for something like an example which is just another form of illustration. Dmcq (talk) 12:01, 13 November 2011 (UTC) Interestingly, there is an essay (referenced from WP:OR) that directly dismisses summaries from WP:OR and promotes writing summaries: WP:SYNTHNOT#SYNTH is not summary. While the accuracy of the Median as summary is disputed here, no one (to date) has challenged the fact that it's the best summary possible in this case. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 14:01, 13 November 2011 (UTC) So no one (to date) has challenged the fact that it's the best summary possible in this case? You are in WP:IDHT territory here: In the original debate, during RfC and here on this very noticeboard I have time and time again pointed out that the median is totally inappropriate both in the way it is being used and how the result is being presented. Useerup (talk) 14:19, 13 November 2011 (UTC) No, the problem is that Dmitrij D. Czarkoff in his above statement tries to re-label what is obviously a calculation to become a summary, a nice euphemism which could allow him to circumvent the pretty clear intention of WP:CALC. Summaries are intended for lead-ins and should be produced by selecting the article's main points. The prohibition against combining material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources is as applicable to a summary as it is to the main article. The median (apart from being applied unprofessionally) is the assignment of a number to a browser or operating system implying it's usage share in some abstract form. This number is unsupported by any one of the sources and thus is WP:SYN. Useerup (talk) 15:53, 13 November 2011 (UTC) Again, please read the others' comments in this discussion and on the talk page. I was stating that the Median line constitutes summary from the very beginning of this thread and early on the talk page, and was even argued that summaries are not allowed. Though it is really calculation flavour of summary, the calculation element is pretty obvious and therefore is permitted under WP:CALC. And as this line doesn't constitute statistical research Your complaints are irrelevant. Anyway, I'm really pleased that You actually noticed my point. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:11, 13 November 2011 (UTC) Please stop insinuating that I'm not reading the comments. That I refuse to accept your attempts to relabel a calculation into something else does not mean that I didn't read it. Comments like the above is a transparent attempt at luring me into a heated discussion, and I'm not taking that bait. On the topic: The following is what the WP:CALC part of WP:NOR says: This policy allows routine mathematical calculations, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age, provided there is consensus among editors that the arithmetic and its application correctly reflect the sources. If you are adding numbers or converting units cited from a source, then there is only one way to do so and it is unlikely to be challenged. Notice that provision about provided there is consensus among editors that the arithmetic and its application correctly reflect the sources. You have not demonstrated consensus that the median and its application correctly reflect the sources. In fact, no consensus have been demonstrated and thus the calculation is not permitted per the policy. Furthermore, you have focused on the fact that median is relatively simple computation, but you blissfully ignore that its application is anything but simple. Remember that the WP:CALC policy wisely also mentions its application to be considered. The median in this case is being naively applied with disregard for the most basic statistical principles (sampling). A median is not a summary but remains a statistical method. A lead-in text which extracts main points made by the article sections is a summary. Calculating a median is statistical analysis. Useerup (talk) 18:56, 13 November 2011 (UTC) Statistical research performed on well-sourced statistical research is still statistical research. And Wikipedia does not - as a matter of policy - allow original statistical research, no matter how well-intentioned it may be. Deriving the median is a deceptively straightforward calculation, but knowing when a median is an appropriate statistical method is anything but straightforward. The intention of the WP:NOR policy is exactly to avoid situations where editors believe they perform harmless summary and inferences/deductions, but in reality may be misrepresenting sources and abusing methodology. There is a reason why WP:CALC examples only includes simple unit conversions and adding simple numbers (from the same source): Simple conversions are unlikely to be challenged because there can be little doubt as to their applicability. Kilometers, meters, miles and yards are just alternate representations of the same concept (a distance). I strongly disagree that medians are "naturally concluded by user". Calculating a median involves sorting and sometimes a mean calculation. Nobody looks at a random sequence of percentages and goes "oh - the central tendency is 35.7%!". Furthermore, the articles themselves demonstrates the lack of statistical professionalism which the WP:NOR was created to avoid: They use a statistical method which assumes that the sampling is either representative or complete. The sampling is definitively not complete (the number of stat counters is unknown). The sampling is not representative/random either: The sources have known biases (they do not sample the same population) and they are being selected by WP editors. Furthermore the sampling methodologies used by the sources are different: Some use unique visitors (counting a user's browser/operating system just once) while others use page hits. Even if two sources happened to sample the same population, this would introduce potential errors due to different usage patterns between users. These are serious statistical (professional) issues which should prompt anyone who's about to perform statistics on those data to pause and recognize that they at the very least require rationalization. Of course, if you admit that you also implicitly admit that you are squarely within WP:OR. And now onto the goal of the median, which is yet another demonstration of how statistics is being abused in the articles: Is the goal to produce a single number which represents the usage share of each operating system, which can then be plotted in a graph? I have queried again and again what this number (which is also plotted in the graph) represents. Does it represent an OS/browser usage share of total usage for all OS'es/browsers? No, because then I would be able to add them up to 100% (allowing for rounding errors). But I cannot; and it's not just rounding errors. How come that the Windows median usage share is different when considering Windows all versions as opposed to the sum of each version of Windows? How come that the sum of median usage share is larger than 102% for browsers? Problems with sampling and bias aside, the median is totally inappropriate for what it is being used for here: It does not represent comparable shares, we cannot define what the total is which the medians should represent shares of, and given the different populations the sources sample we cannot even define what the population is supposed to be.Useerup (talk) 14:13, 13 November 2011 (UTC) Please, don't get offended, but the discussion would be much more productive if You read at least some of the replies since the very beginning of the dispute and until now. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 14:55, 13 November 2011 (UTC) Closing discussion Since my last post here, the discussion has just been going in circles, with both sides restating the same arguments. Moreover, we are starting to see people attacking the conduct of other users, rather that commenting on the content in questions. This is completely counter-productive, as it shifts the focus off the issue in hand. It seems to me that DRN is not going to resolve this dispute; therefore, I am going to close this discussion. I believe that a more formal approach is needed to this dispute, so I would recommend that a case is opened at the Mediation Cabal. Hopefully the issue can be resolved there. Thanks, ItsZippy (talk • contributions) 19:12, 13 November 2011 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

360networks

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 360networks (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Dispute overview Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here? This article was deleted without notice after being posted for nearly 2-years with no reported problems. Users involved Who is involved in the dispute? Skeoch.s (talk · contribs) Fastily (talk · contribs) Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".) Not yet. N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=360networks}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page. Resolving the dispute Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken? I have posted to his Talk page but he is unavailable until 11.24 How do you think we can help? Looking for guidance on how I can recover the article and make revisions to resubmit. 360networks was acquired by Zayo and there is some time sensitivity in making the appropriate updates. Skeoch.s (talk) 16:05, 11 November 2011 (UTC) 360networks discussion Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jane Beale

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Jane Beale (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Dispute overview Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here? I keep editing, with a reference, that Jane Beale has announced she will not be on the EastEnders programme as a permanent character and thus, she will be departing next year. The source says that the door has been left open for her to return but it does NOT say she will be returning next year, it just says she is departing over the next few months. I put this in the introduction but for some reason some people feel it's necessary to revert these changes. Fair enough if you want to change the box that includes her not departing, but the bit in the introduction is perfectly valid and I see no good reason why it should be not be accepted. Users involved Who is involved in the dispute? JackJackUK (talk · contribs) GSorby (talk · contribs) I have not been given a good enough reason why it shouldn't be accepted. Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".) Yes. N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=Jane Beale}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page. Resolving the dispute Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken? No. How do you think we can help? By accepting my changes that are perfectly valid. JackJackUK (talk) 22:12, 11 November 2011 (UTC) Jane Beale discussion Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Jimriz

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. .vc (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Dispute overview Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here? user JimRiz keeps adding a link to a company which isn't the correct registrar for .VC despite having the name NIC.VC Users involved Who is involved in the dispute? Jimriz (talk · contribs) 76.77.75.72 (talk · contribs) Have you informed all the editors mentioned above that you have posted this dispute? (If not, once you have informed them come back and replace the text "Not yet" with "Yes".) Not yet. N.B. To inform the other users you may place the text {{subst:DRN-notice|thread=User:Jimriz}} --~~~~ in a new section on each user's talk page. Resolving the dispute Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken? Have reverted, and added comments that NIC.VC is just a registered domain, not the registrar, and this has been removed How do you think we can help? need a 3rd party 76.77.75.72 (talk) 17:09, 15 November 2011 (UTC) User:Jimriz discussion Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand. Nic.vc is a authorized registrar in the .vc namespace — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.59.190.24 (talk) 18:01, 15 November 2011 (UTC) Closing note: There's been no discussion on any talk page about this matter, which is a requirement for a dispute to be listed here. I've looked at it, however, and you are correct, the introduction of links to nic.vc and whois.vc are linkspam. Please be sure to leave a progressive warning about the linkspamming on the spammer's talk page each time it occurs. I've left one and reverted the spamming today. Now that they've been warned, reverting linkspam is an exception to the three-revert rule since it is a form of obvious vandalism (but it's still not a good idea to tempt fate). Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:21, 15 November 2011 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.