Talk:India

Arts image section rotation

Should we parallelly start the nomination phase for Arts image section rotation to save time ? --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 11:53, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

That sounds like a very good idea, and I second it. Should we say nominations can come in until 20 November, 2011? That way, we will have two days to discuss the results of the voting (which will close on 18 November). After that, we can do the rest in parallel (voting for one and nominations of the next). By the "arts" section, I am assuming you mean the Shakuntala image. Am I right? I am opening a nominations section below on the premise that we'll soon have consensus for this speed up. If you think I'm jumping the gun, please revert. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:34, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I just took a quick look at the culture section. Literature and Architecture are grouped together (separated, oddly, by tandoori cooking) and drama, dance, movies have their own subsection. Should we be changing "Arts" to "Performing Arts?" and giving the others their own subsection, "Art, Architecture, and Literature?" Cuisine can then go into the society page. The society section could have images of religious observances. There is such a richness of images for these subsections and such an interest in them, that rotations could be easily managed. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:04, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

The reorganization looks good. I am moving the Shakuntala image to rotation in "Art, architecture, and literature" as it belongs there. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:26, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Removing "Please do not nominate photoshopped images. (Cropping is fine, but not much else, especially not color changes.)". It is an absurd condition. Even Wikipedia:Featured picture criteria does not prevent digital manipulation altogether. "Typical acceptable manipulation includes cropping, perspective correction, sharpening/blurring, and colour/exposure correction". --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 18:00, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

"Color exposure correction" is a tricky one. It is fine in the hand of experts in the WP:FC image correction group, but not in the hands of amateurs. I am against color enhancement. It is unencyclopedic. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:56, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Nowadays, most images which are used publicly and distributed widely are improved through photoshop or some other image editor. Why should we want poor quality images for India only? To be able to show India in a poor light?

And nobody needs prove one's expertise by showing some diploma/degree etc. If the images look better, they are better. I see no sense in criticizing images because they have been improved. The criticism would be more palatable/understandable/logical if it was because of the reason that they were not improved. Thanks.MW ^ℳ 02:03, 16 November 2011 (UTC) It would be easier on everyone if you could admit that your views are Indophobic-MW ^ℳ 02:11, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

!? Indophile, surely? Fowler&fowler contributes extensively to India-related topics and generally does so in a positive manner (that is, positive in the Wikipedia sense). I generally avoid image-related stuff because I am a philistine in that regard. However, "improvement" is a subjective notion, surely? There is much to be said for "warts and all", and indeed that has been a major issue in India-related article text. We are not here to glorify, nor to denigrate, but how that works with image manipulation is beyond me. Would it be worth getting one of the technical bods involved in this discussion, such as from the FC group to whom F&f referred? - Sitush (talk) 19:43, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, Sitush, I had to be away from Wikipedia most of yesterday, so I didn't get a chance to reply. Your suggestion is a good one. I'm swamped today as well, but will try to post on the WT:FP page or one of its related pages. Meanwhile, since you guys are here (you and MangoWong), why don't you consider voting in the sports voting. We don't have enough votes to make any sensible decisions. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:30, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Why? Because I am a philistine wrt images. I try to avoid areas where I know myself to be lacking in competence. There are probably other areas where I do not self-recognise, or at least not yet. Heading off the obvious, with that last sentence. I'll take a look, but don't hold your breath as it is not often that I get a "wow" about a photo, and my technical knowledge is minimal. - Sitush (talk) 18:47, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Good taste, bad taste: ever the question here.

Those people(s) who are most humble/halting and least assertive in their opinions tend to have the best taste—in images, prose, or whatever else. Just think of Japanese or Bhutanese architecture, culture, aesthetics compared with those of McWorld. "People get what they deserve, not what they expect". Saravask 10:39, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Mini proposal

In light of Redtigerxyz's (very understandable conundrum and) partial revert, here is a:

Mini proposal

• We create one new section, "Art, architecture, and literature," comprising the last two paragraphs of the Culture section preamble.
• Change "Arts" to "Performing arts" (see here)
• We create rotations for a) Performing arts, b) Art, architecture, and literature, and c) Society. This is the aspect of India (the Culture) of which people very much like to see pictures. I believe our extra effort will be richly rewarded.
• We do the nominations of the three sections simultaneously, but give ourselves a little more time, say, until 00:00 22 November 2011. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:34, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

PS The Taj too then will be replaced by a rotation containing other aspects of Indian architecture (and art and literature). Currently, we don't have any text about Indian art (painting): nothing about Buddhist art, Mughal miniatures, Bengali renaissance, Madhubani and other tribal art, Kangra school, ...Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:34, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Second proposal. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:54, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Just 1 observation move the "Indian cuisine" part in "Art, architecture, and literature" to Society. See [1]. Also I propose to add something about Indian art. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:23, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Nominations

Nominations are now open for the India#Arts section rotation. Please read the text of that section, then submit high quality images relevant to the text. Nominations will close at 00:00 22 November 2011. I am adding rows of gallery blanks in all three subsections below. Please make more copies, if you are nearing the last row.

Ground rules

• The images should have relatively high resolution. A Wikipedia Featured Article, such as India, is best supported by high quality images.
• The captions should be informative, precise, supportable by evidence (in the image or in its Commons caption), and NPOV.
• Please do not nominate photoshopped images (Cropping is fine, but not color changes). Scratched by user:Redtigerxyz, who disputed it. Left in here for others to view and decide appropriately. (updated 23:56, 15 November 2011 (UTC))
• Nominations for all three sections will close at 00:00 22 November 2011.

Nominations for Art, architecture, and literature

India page Art, architecture, and literature rotation

• 
  A-1. Sculpture of the Hindu goddess Ganga, the deified Ganges River, in terracotta from Ahichchhatra, U.P., Gupta, 5th century CE.
• 
  A-2. Chola bronze of Nataraja, WP:Featured Picture
• 
  A-3. Mahesha Trimurti, Elephanta Caves
• 
  A-4. Temple relief sculpture of a kissing couple at Khajuraho, Madhya Pradesh, a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

India page Art, architecture, and literature rotation

• 
  A-5. Gandhara art-style sculpture of Sakyamuni Gautam Buddha, founder of Buddhism, at the Tokyo National Museum.
• 
  A-6. Wood carving at the Ayodhyapattinam Rama Temple, near Salem, Tamil Nadu.
• 
  B-7 Cave paintings, Bhimbetka
• 
  B-8 Ramayana war. Featured picture

India page Art, architecture, and literature rotation

• 
  B-9 Tribal Warli art
• 
  B-10 Current Image. different version with unchanged colours. Description: "Śakuntalā Looking Back to Glimpse Dushyanta". Scene from Kālidāsa's The Recognition of Śakuntalā as painted by Raja Ravi Varma.
• B-11 Modern Indian art by Amrita Sher-Gil
  B-11 Modern Indian art by Amrita Sher-Gil
• 
  B-12 Ragamala paintings: Deepak Raga by Sahibdin, 17th century.

India page Art, architecture, and literature rotation

• 
  B-13 A Mughal miniature, 1615–1618, showing the emperor Jahangir preferring the conversation of a Sufi saint to that of nobility and royalty.
• 
  B-14 Whimsical Kalighat painting, "Woman Striking Man With Broom," Kolkata, 1875
• 
  B-15 Whimsical Kalighat painting, "Brahmin Kneeling Before Two Tigers," Kolkata, 1875
• 
  C-16 Rabindranath Tagore, first Nobel laureate and author of Jana Gana Mana, anthem

India page Art, architecture, and literature rotation

• 
  C-17. Awadhi Hindi poet Goswami Tulsidas was the composer of the Ramcharitmanas one of the best known vernacular versions of the Ramayana
• 
  C-18. A 1927 edition of the Diwan-e-Ghalib of Urdu poet Mirza Ghalib with illustrations by artist Abdur Rehman Chughtai
• 
  D-19 Current Image. The Taj Mahal, built in Agra between 1631 and 1648 by orders of Emperor Shah Jahan in memory of his wife, has been described in the UNESCO World Heritage List as "the jewel of Muslim art in India and one of the universally admired masterpieces of the world's heritage."
• 
  D-20. A panoramic view of the group of Buddhists monuments at Sanchi, including monolithic pillars, a sanctuary, a monastery and a palace, dating to the 2nd century BCE, and now a UNESCO world heritage site.

India page Art, architecture, and literature rotation

• 
  D-21 Jain Dilwara Temples
• 
  D-22. Mahabodhi Buddhist temple, World Heritage site
• 
  D-23 Description: Goa - Velha Basilica Bom Jesus, World Heritage site
• 
  D-24. The Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus (formerly "Victoria Terminus"), a railway station in Mumbai, was built to mark the golden jubilee of the reign of Queen Victoria in 1887, and is today a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

India page Art, architecture, and literature rotation

• 
  D-25. The Qutb Minar (background) with the Alai Darwaza (foreground), built around 1200 CE, in what is now New Delhi, are enduring symbols of the Delhi Sultanate. The complex is a UNESCO World Heritage Site.
• 
  D-26. Humayun's Tomb, built with red sandstone and marble, in what is now New Delhi, was the first garden tomb on the Indian subcontinent. The tomb is a UNESCO World Heritage Site.
• 
  D-27 The Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus (formerly "Victoria Terminus"), a railway station in Mumbai, was built to mark the golden jubilee of the reign of Queen Victoria in 1887, and is today a UNESCO World Heritage Site.
• 
  D-28 Mahabodhi temple, Bodh Gaya, Bihar, commemorates the enlightenment of Gautama Buddha. (UNESCO World Heritage Site)

India page Art, architecture, and literature rotation

• 
  D-29 Panoramic view of the Jama Masjid in Delhi. Built by Mughal emperor Shah Jahan, it is the largest and best known mosque in India.
• 
  D-30 Wide angled view of the Jama Masjid, Delhi.
• 
  D-31 Ramparts of the Red Fort, Delhi, a UNESCO World Heritage Site.
• 
  D-32 Hampi royal area, Vijayanagara Empire, Karnataka, a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

India page Art, architecture, and literature section rotation

• 
  D-33 Description: Indian vernacular architecture. A Toda tribal hut (Featured article)
• 
  D-34 Sher Mandal, the library of Mughal emperor Humayun, on the steps of which he slipped and died days later, not long after returning to Delhi at the end of a long exile during the reign of Sher Shah Suri
• 
  D-35. Stamps issued in 1931 to mark the inauguration of New Delhi as the capital of the India.

Nominations for Performing arts subsection rotation

India page Performing arts rotation

• 
  E-1. Kathakali (Valued picture on commons)
• 
  E-2. Description: Manipuri dance
• E-3 Description: Mohiniattam
  E-3 Description: Mohiniattam
• 
  E-4 Kuchipudi dance combined with Carnatic singing

India page Performing arts rotation

• 
  E-5. Kuchipudi dance combined with Carnatic singing
• 
  E-6 kathak with Sitar player
• E-7 Kathakali dancer with drummer
  E-7 Kathakali dancer with drummer
• 
  E-8. Kathak

India page Performing arts rotation

• E-9. Balasaraswati, widely considered to be one the greatest Bharatnatyam dancer of the 20th century, performing at a concert.
  E-9. Balasaraswati, widely considered to be one the greatest Bharatnatyam dancer of the 20th century, performing at a concert.
• 
  E-10. Bharatnatyam
• E-11. Bharatnatyam male
  E-11. Bharatnatyam male
• 
  F-12 Tribal Dance in Bastar

India page Performing arts rotation

• F-13. Chhau Dance (Folk dance of Odisha and Bengal), also features in UNESCO Intangible Cultural Heritage Lists.
  F-13. Chhau Dance (Folk dance of Odisha and Bengal), also features in UNESCO Intangible Cultural Heritage Lists.
• F-14. Bihu dancers with drummers
  F-14. Bihu dancers with drummers
• 
  F-15. Ravana, Ramlila - UNESCO Masterpiece of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity
• 
  F-16. Yakshagana

India page Performing arts rotation

• G-17. Friday evening Qawali at Dargah Salim Chisti at Fatehpur Sikri, near Agra, UP.
  G-17. Friday evening Qawali at Dargah Salim Chisti at Fatehpur Sikri, near Agra, UP.
• 
  G-18. Indian music concert
• 
  G-19. Indian music concert
• 
  G-20 Indian folk musicians singing in Hyderabad

India page Performing arts section rotation

• G-21. Folk singers of Rajasthan
  G-21. Folk singers of Rajasthan
• G-22. Video: Sitar maestro Ravi Shankar performing at the Shiraz Arts Festival, Iran, in the 1970s
• 
  G-23 Ustad Allauddin Khan, widely considered to be one of the greatest musicians and music teachers of North Indian Classical music of the 20th century, was the father of sarod maestros Ali Akbar Khan and Annapurna Devi, and the the guru of Ravi Shankar, Nikhil Banerjee, and Pannalal Ghosh
• 
  G-24. Shehnai maestro Bismillah Khan at a concert in 1964.

India page Performing arts section rotation

• 
  G-25. Sarod player Sudhesna Bhattacharya in concert at the Musée Guimet, Paris.
• 
  G-26. Carnatic vocalist, M. S. Subbulakshmi, the first musician to be awarded India's highest civilian honour, the Bharat Ratna.
• 
  H-27. Raja Harishchandra, first Indian movie
• 
  H-28 Alam Ara, first Indian sound film

Nominations for Society section rotation

Let us temporarily have a rotation of images that passed in Talk:India/Archive_35#Voting_.232_.28With_47_images.29 and Talk:India/Archive 36 (Demographics voting), but were not included, citing that there will soon be a selection for a religion rotation in the culture section and images be reserved for that. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:49, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

The gallery is fine, but it shouldn't be restricted to results of previous consensuses. Just to clarify, I didn't mean that they will get a automatic pass. The Golden Temple, I can still understand, but not the Pahar Ganj Delhi wedding. There were other wedding images considered even earlier, such as the Meenakshi temple wedding, that too were not considered. The wedding image should not have been submitted for demographics in the first place (we were still trying to work out the kinks in the system). For example, there are two sports images currently in rotation that have already been voted on; they too are now competing again and only one will will get selected, if that. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:25, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Excellent noms, Redtigerxyz! (Takes some of the pressure off me.  :) ) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:22, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Redtigerxyz: The Parsi wedding doesn't look Parsi to me. (The women have dots on their forehead, men have caste markings. The men's headgear is not Parsi style.) Unless you can provide watertight documentation, it will need to be removed. The army regiment doesn't belong to a society page, but rather to the military page, when it has it's rotation. Could you also please provide more details in your captions. The Holi picture is not just one of women playing Holi, but a 17th (?) century painting depicting ... This will help out a not-so-well-informed reader. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:25, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Festivals including Republic Day are discussed, so I felt a Republic day parade img would be nice. Actually I am searching for another img of the parade. Just collecting images now, will write captions afterwards. Changing Parsi image. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:00, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Question: I'm not very happy with my image 29. It took a lot of work. I had to sift through some 2,000 Flickr images to find three (of the more traditional Indian cooking); however, in the thumbnail at least, the picture looks confusing. Should I be drawing black lines to divide the picture? I didn't because I thought someone upstairs was suggesting that they were excessive, but, perhaps, they were talking about the borders around the images. Please advise. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:00, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Redtigerxyz, is it that hard to pay a attention when you select your pictures? The tandoori dinner picture is from a restaurant in Kobe Japan! The Rajasthani thali has been uploaded on Flickr by delirious college kid who discovered the last extant Rajasthani dinner in a tourist trap on a busy highway, a dinner which was, moreover, served in special Rajasthani tin foil dishes. Seriously, do you want this kind of garbage to go on the India page? Why do you keep nominating it then? How many Indians are eating the 12 different varieties of South Indian thalis (that you have in your collage of thumbnails)? And the Indian spices? What are they? Spices native to India? Clearly not, since powered red pepper and cinnamon bark and anise are among them. Are they spices most commonly used in Indian food? In which case, what are they, please identify a few and which kind of food. I am working hard on nominating good images; you are being cavalier and sloppy to the point of being disruptive. Please remove your garbage. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:27, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Fowler raises some good points here:

• As is the case with most everyone here, I'm sure that Redtigerxyz's cuisine/dance noms were made in good faith. Nikkul said some weeks ago something: "we've all made mistakes here". But "less is more" and "the higher, the fewer" is good advice for all of us regarding image noms.
• I prefer not to have borders and segment frames in images—just look at the best city infobox collages on WP. I prefer not to have headshots like the Tagore one. And I prefer that the rotations don't degenerate to the state they were in when Nikkul managed the now-deleted rotation template.

Fowler's excellent points regarding quality have dovetailed with the ones I've tried to make over the past several weeks—and I think I've pretty much railed against of otherwise alienated everyone here regarding image or prose quality. I hope Redtiger and others don't our criticisms personally. Fowler just wants to keep this article clean: free of shabbiness and POV. Saravask 12:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

All components of the "tandoori dinner" constitute Indian food, irrespective the location of restaurant. The tandoor and naan are discussed in the article. "powered red pepper and cinnamon bark and anise" are all part of spices typically used in Indian cuisine. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 18:30, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I guess, I am suggesting that you seem to be sometimes pushing grandiose, vanilla or unrealistic images of India and, by persistently so doing, are being disruptive. One doesn't have to be verbally rude to be disruptive. One can do the Wikipedia equivalent of flushing all the toilets at once. There's nothing illegal about it, but if everyone does it, it paralyses a city, and becomes disruptive. Many of your images are great, especially in Performing Arts, and I've complimented you for those, but sometimes you seem to only flushing toilets. Sorry, but please think about it. I am only engaging in constructive criticism. My aim is not to gratuitously confront you or drive you away. You are a valuable participant here. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:51, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

All this is more or less moot since I have to take a month off Wikipedia. I will see this nomination through, i.e. prepare it for voting and cast my vote (soon after midnight tonight), but that's about it. Could others: Saravask, RegentsPark, Regtigerxyz, AshLin and others please manage the rest of the process? Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Again, sorry to hear that, Fowler. I hope Regtigerxyz, RegentsPark, or someone else can step forward to do what Fowler has asked—my opinions regarding image selection are far too strong to enable impartial vote-brokering. If no one steps forward, I suppose we could just implement off of a straight vote, though it's probably better if we just wait until Fowler returns, then let him close it as usual. If we do the latter, we could just extend the voting phase to a month. At any rate, I wish Fowler and his pet the best during his break. Saravask 11:42, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

India page Society section rotation

• 
  I-1 A Jain family praying at Shravanabelagola, Karnataka.
• 
  I-2 Four activities of a Hindu priest: Top left: Preparing the deity for public worship: Top Right: Making sandlewood paste for ritual blessing; Bottom left: successively dripping the alter with milk, honey, dry fuit, yoghurt and bananas to make holy ambrosia, and distributing the prasadam, food blessed by the deity, to the worshippers.
• 
  I-3 Muslims offering namaz at a mosque in Srinagar, Kashmir.
• 
  I-4. An Indian Muslim male reads the Qu'ran in a mosque

India page Society section rotation

• 
  I-5 A Buddhist devotee offering prayers to the Buddha at the Mahabodhi temple in Bodh Gaya, Bihar.
• 
  I-6 Gurudwara Bangla Sahib, Delhi. Top: Worshippers arrive and ritually purify. Bottom (left and right): Volunteers prepare roti bread for worshippers.
• 
  I-7 Sikh pilgrim at the Golden Temple (Harmandir Sahib) in Amritsar, India
• 
  I-8. A Parsi priest at the Zoroastrian Fire temple on Metcalfe Street, Kolkota.

India page Society section rotation

• 
  I-9. The Open Air Rock Cross opposite a Syro Malabar Catholic Church in Kerala.
• 
  I-10. A Indian Catholic girl's first communion.
• 
  I-11. The Chudakarana ceremony of a Hindu boy in which he receives his first hair cut.
• 
  J-12. Description: A Rajput Hindu marriage ceremony.

India page Society section rotation

• 
  J-13. An Indian wedding (do we know this is an Hindu wedding?
• 
  J-14. Henna applied to a Muslim bride's hands, Madurai, Tamil Nadu.
• 
  J-15 Indian Christian wedding in Madurai, Tamil Nadu.
• 
  J-16. Parsi wedding

India page Society section rotation

• 
  J-17. A newly married couple at the Meenakshi temple in Madurai, Tamil Nadu
• 
  K-18. An early 20th century illustration of the many styles of the sari and of draping the garment.
• 
  K-19 Some Indian women decorate their hair with flowers.
• 
  K-20 Woman draped in a silk sari with brocade work, Mysore city, Karnataka.

India page Society section rotation

• 
  K-21 A shopkeeper in Lucknow models a sari for a customer.
• 
  K-22. Female tourists from North-East India, in sarongs and shawls, at the Taj Mahal.
• 
  K-23 Women dressed in the different styles of the sari and other Indian outfits, playing different musical instruments.
• 
  L-24. Rajasthani Veg, Thali

India page Society section rotation

• 
  L-25 Description: an Indian meal of chicken curry, shrimp curry, naan, papad, tandoori chicken, saffron rice, and salad.
• 
  L-26 Description: A rice-based South Indian meal on banana leaf
• 
  L-27 Various thalis.
• 
  L-28 Spices used in Indian cuisine

India page Society section rotation

• 
  L-29. Top: Roti bread and vegetable sabzi (stew) cook outdoors in the traditional manner of Thar desert, Rajasthan. Bottom: A traditional kitchen of a Hindu temple in Karnataka.
• 
  L-30. Top: Northern/Western Indian home cooked lunch delivered to the office by the tiffin wallah. Bottom: South Indian thali style dinner served in a restaurant.
• 
  L-31. Spices used in India
• L-32. Hemis monastery (Buddhist) festival, Ladakh.
  L-32. Hemis monastery (Buddhist) festival, Ladakh.

India page Society section rotation

• 
  L-33. An Indian painting depicting Ladies playing Holi, the festival of colours
• 
  L-34. Republic Day parade.
• 
  L-35. Garba is played during Navaratri

Voting

Ground rules

1. As before for each of the subsections below, you are being asked to cast 8 votes
2. As before the images are labeled in the form: Alphabet-Numeral (e.g. A-3).
3. As before the alphabet part of the label represents some subgroup of the culture grouping. Thus "A" is sculpture, "B" is Art (painting), "C" is architecture, and so forth.
4. In general, in any letter-group, you should not vote for more than ${\frac {number\ of\ letter\ group\ images}{Total\ number\ images\ in\ subsection}}\times 8$. Thus in group "A" you shouldn't vote more than 6x8/35, which is approximately 1.5. That means you could vote twice, but will need to draw back elsewhere. Similarly in group "B" you shouldn't be voting more than 7*8/35 = 1.6. You could round up the decimal and vote twice, but then somewhere else you will have to appropriately round down.
5. Those are the rules.
6. Others who will be around can decide when to close. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Voting for Art, architecture, literature

• Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:27, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
  • A-5, B-13, B-15, C-17, D-25, D-28, D-32, D-35. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:27, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
• User:RegentsPark
  • A-4, A-5, B-11, B-14, C-18, D-23, D28, D-30, D-33 --regentspark (comment) 21:34, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• User:AshLin
  • A-2, A-5, B-9, B-12, C-17, D23, D24, D32, D33. AshLin (talk) 08:49, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

• User:Redtigerxyz
  • A-2, A-5, B-9, B-11, C-16, D19, D-23, D28, D33. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:20, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

• User:Saravask
  • A2, A5, B9, B11, B15, D23, D32, D33 — Saravask 09:22, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

• User:pdheeru
  • A2,A5,B7,B16,C16,C17,D24,D28.Pdheeru (talk) 02:28, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Voting for Performing arts

• Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:40, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
  • E-1, E-9, F-12, F-15, G-17 (video), G-22 (video), G-25, G-26. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:40, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• User:Redtigerxyz
  • E1, E5, E6, F12, F14, F15, G20, H27--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:25, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

• User:Saravask
  • E5, E9, F12, F14, G17, G20, G22, G25 — Saravask 09:22, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

• User:pdheeru
  • E2, E8,E11,F14 Pdheeru (talk) 02:31, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Voting for Society

• Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:52, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
  • I-2, I-3, I-6, J-14, J-15, K-22, L-29, L-30. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:52, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

• User:Redtigerxyz
  • I1, I4, I7, J13, J15, K23, L28, L30, L32. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:29, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

• User:Saravask
  • I1, I2, I3, I7, J15, K22, L29, L30 — Saravask 09:22, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

• User:pdheeru
  • I1,I5,I11,J13,K18,L28,L34,L35 Pdheeru (talk) 02:41, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• User:DebashisM
  • I3, I9, J13, J14, K18, L26, L28, L33DebashisM^Talk 04:33, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

I see that no decisions have been made in my absence. Unfortunately, I'm flat out of time, and can't help much. Looking at it cursorily, all I can say is that there are too few votes and too many images. There are too many sub-standard images, nominated without thought, without care, and often without the courtesy of intelligible captions. There might have been more votes, but many people who earlier were participating in the process are now no longer doing so. I believe they have been driven away, turned off either by the bickering or by what they might see as an attempt—by the off-handed dumping of less-than-explained images—to limit the vote to a group of insiders. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:15, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

PS I am not suggesting that this is deliberate on anyone's part, but the images captions need to be both user friendly and informative; otherwise, we are unlikely to get a useful vote. We could count the votes and make a decision, but what would be the point of it? Please help improve the image captions. In other words, they should read now as they would if they had been selected and were already on the India page. The voters should be voting on both the images and their captions (which make the images relevant). Good luck. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:44, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

PPS Coming from this perspective, saying that such and such image is a featured image is unproductive (since we wouldn't be saying that on the India page). Also, the nominator info, which I tried to remove, but might have missed it here and there, will also need to go. Perhaps, Saravask, Redtigerxyz, AshLin, Joyson Noel, Pdheeru, can help improve the captions for now. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:49, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Welcome back. We could pick/discuss these pictures:

• A02, A05, B09, B11, C17, D28, D32, D33
• E05, E09, F12, F14, G17, G20, G22, G25
• I02, I03, I07, J13J12, J15, K22, L29, L30

Or we can wait—for more votes or for Fowler to return.

Have some prosperous and/or peaceful holidays, guys. Saravask 20:46, 23 December 2011 (UTC) [changed 03:11, 27 December 2011 (UTC) by Saravask]

Sorry, I didn't see your post. Delighted that you have taken the initiative. Those seem like fairly representative high-quality images and have my support. Only, I would prefer J12 to J13 which seems all too anonymous. Other than the spectacular outfits and smiles, we have we have nothing to go by, e.g. religious or regional characteristics. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:04, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Sure, no problem. I also suggest we give folks another week to vote or suggest changes/proposals. Saravask 03:08, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Medieval history sources

As for the posts in a previous talk page thread, Medieval history section seems patronizing?], opened while I was on Wikibreak, the sentence is well-documented. Please read the references in the footnotes. Not only were there no large-scale forced conversions of Hindus to Islam during the rule of the Delhi Sultanate (whose Turkish slave armies were vastly superior to those of the indigenous rulers of the subcontinent), but by encountering and defeating the Mongols at the northwestern borders, the Delhi sultans saved North India from the wanton destruction seen in West Asia and Southern Eurasia. For the former, there are many sources, among which the better known ones (with links to relevant pages) are:

• Jackson, Peter (2003), The Delhi Sultanate: A Political and Military History, Cambridge University Press, pp. 15–, ISBN 978-0-521-54329-3, retrieved 22 December 2011 Quote: "Nor can the liberation that the Muslim conquerors offered to those who sought to escape from the caste system be taken for granted. The evidence for widespread conversion to Islam at the turn of the twelfth century simply does not exist. That such deliverance was in fact on offer seems improbable in view of our knowledge of the early centuries of Muslim rule in Sind, ..." (page 15)

• Eaton, Richard Maxwell (1996), The rise of Islam and the Bengal frontier, 1204-1760, University of California Press, pp. 114–, ISBN 978-0-520-20507-9, retrieved 22 December 2011 Quote: "Nor does the theory fit the religious geography of South Asia. If Islamization had ever been a function of military or political force, one would expect that those areas exposed most intensively and over the longest period to rule by Muslim dynasties—that is, those that were most fully exposed to the "sword"—would today contain the greatest number of Muslims. Yet the opposite is the case, as those regions where the most dramatic Islamization occurred, such as eastern Bengal or western Punjab, lay on the fringes of Indo-Muslim rule, where the "sword" was weakest, and where brute force could have exerted the least influence. In such regions the first accurate census reports put the Muslim population at between 70 and 90 percent of the total, whereas in the heartland of Muslim rule in the upper Gangetic Plain—the domain of the Delhi Fort and the Taj Mahal, where Muslim regimes had ruled the most intensively and for the longest period of time—the Muslim population ranged from only 10 to 15 percent. In other words, in the subcontinent as a whole there is an inverse relationship between the degree of Muslim political penetration and the degree of Islamization. Even within Bengal this principle holds true." (page 115)

For the military and technological superiority of the Turkish armies contrasted with the indigenous Indian rulers, see:

• Wink, André (2002), Al-Hind, the Slave Kings and the Islamic Conquest, 11th-13th Centuries, BRILL, pp. 4–, ISBN 978-0-391-04174-5, retrieved 22 December 2011 Quote: "Instead of being devastated by the Mongols during one or several major invasions, the agricultural plains of North India were brought under Turko-Islamic rule in a gradual manner. This conquest, which continued throughout the eleventh to thirteenth centuries, was effected by professional armies, built around a core of Turkish slave soldiers, which were relatively small in size and were not accompanied by any large-scale invasions of nomadic elements (complete with flocks and herds), as happened in the Middle East. Unlike the Mongols, too, these Turkish groups had already converted to Islam before they came to India. The military differential between the Turkish invaders on the one hand and the opposing Indian armies on the other was both technical and social in its origin, revolving as it did around the coordinated deployment of mounted archers. In India. of course, the horse and horsemanship had a long history. But it seems that archery was largely left to infantry and a relatively small number of elephant-riders. Like in the case of the Byzantines, it was the failure of the Indians to develop mounted archery that was exposed by the Turks from the steppes of Central Asia. And it was, paradoxically, this military, differential that made possible the fusion of nomadic and agricultural society in the eleventh to thirteenth centuries. ... as soon as the conquest of al-Hind was under way, a migration corridor was opened up between the eastern Islamic world, including Central Asia, and the subcontinent. The gradual establishment of a new Muslim ruling elite in India was further enhanced by the immigration of fugitives from the lands which had been overrun by the pagan Mongols." (pages 3–4)

For the effective protection provided by the Sultanate against the Mongols, there are many sources as well, in addition to the ones cited. Among these are:

• Stein, Burton; Arnold, David (2010), A History of India, John Wiley and Sons, pp. 131–32, ISBN 978-1-4051-9509-6, retrieved 22 December 2011. Quote: "Apart from the immediate political consequences of introducing a new ruling stratum with a vigorous and alien religion into northern India, the new political elite (i.e. the Delhi sultans) was militarily superior to indigenous warrior-rulers. Among the few peoples and societies spared the devastations of the Mongol hordes were those Muslim steppe communities whose fighters determinedly matched Mongol skills on horses and general ferocity. These Turkic warriors may have saved India from the horrors that other Eurasians suffered at the hands of the Mongols. ... The Muslim resistance prevented deeper incursions, and in course of time a standing army under the rule and command of the Delhi sultanate stood watch against the Mongol terror."
• Kulke, Hermann; Rothermund, Dietmar (2004), A history of India, Routledge, pp. 175–, ISBN 978-0-415-32920-0, retrieved 22 December 2011. Quote: "Although Ala-ud-din had the indisputable merit of having saved India front being overrun by the Mongols, the Hindus naturally disliked hint because he oppressed them intentionally. Hindu historians have, therefore, criticised him just as they criticised Aurangzeb. But they tend to forget that Ala-uddin was rather impartial in his oppression, his measures being aimed at Muslim courtiers just as much as against Hindu notables and middlemen." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:08, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

I will be away until January 10, 2012. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:10, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Thx Fowler, happy new year! AshLin (talk) 21:18, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you and the same to you. I have added some quotes from the sources. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:37, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

And what of the line "The Sultanate's raiding and weakening of the regional kingdoms of South India paved the way for the indigenous Vijayanagara Empire." ??

Which holy book from the west gives this interpretation ? RAA Ra Ra your Boat (talk) 08:51, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Independance section of the infobox

I find that in the infobox, where it lists India's independace from the UK, it should also stated the date of the independance of Diu, Damao, and Goa from Portugal. It is significant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.186.55.223 (talk) 10:09, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 26 December 2011

Delhi is now largest country in india according to 2011 census

Gebenjam (talk) 11:08, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

How old are you? Joyson Prabhu ^{Holla at me!} 11:39, 26 December 2011 (UTC)