Talk:Mitsuo Fuchida

Signing of the Japanese Instrument of Surrender

The reasons I placed caveats around Fuchida's statement that he attended the surrender ceremony on board U.S.S. Missouri are detailed below. Frankly, this is such a whopper I can't understand why someone else hasn't trashed it years ago. Please go here:

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/japansur/js-8.htm

The photos of the ceremony make two things abundantly clear:

1) This was a standing-room only party, and all the guests were either American crewman of the Missouri (on the turrets and in the superstructure), or else very important representatives from the Allied nations (on the quarterdeck). I see *no* Japanese uniforms in *any* of those photos--just white American sailor suits and guys wearing *our* officers' hats. All the spots in the rafters are taken by American sailors.

2) Pretty clearly, the *only* Japanese "invited" to this party were the eleven individuals who were required to be there. And from the faces of the Japanese delegation, they all look like they've just eaten toads. Ask yourself the following questions: why would a mid-level staff officer like Fuchida be present at these ceremonies, in *any* capacity whatsoever? Why? Why him, when the IJN has literally hundreds of Japanese *admirals* to choose from instead? And from the American perspective, why would Admiral Halsey (whose flagship this is) have even the *slightest* interest in giving up precious deck real-estate for some no-name guy like Fuchida? It doesn't make any sense. It simply doesn't pass the sniff test.

This is further supported by the description of the ceremony, which was (not surprisingly) very well documented. The Japanese party came on board for half an hour. There is no mention whatsoever of any group of supernumerary Japanese who were allowed to come aboard beforehand and were then escorted onto the ship's superstructure to witness the show. If there were, don't you think they would have been photographed as well? The ship was absolutely crawling with photographers--Fuchida couldn't have helped being photographed if he were there. No, it's quite clear that the Japanese came on as a single group, and from a single ship. They did their thing, and then were immediately escorted off the ship. Fuchida was never there. It's complete nonsense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jparshall (talk • contribs) 22:42, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

See entry at end of "Disputed" section. Parshall is mistaken in many ways and did very poor research to reach his conclusions. Someone fact-checked his "whopper speech" and showed it to be highly unprofessional and simply wrong http://heynotsofast.wordpress.com/. As far as the event being "very well documented," Parshall is quite wrong on this as well. See the article. This is simply an error on Parshall's part. All said, no need to restore the entry as it wasn't a huge event in Fuchida's life. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theleopard (talk • contribs) 13:53, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Disputed

This "biography" of Fuchida is a Hagiography ! This is not history, in any sense. To take acritically the words of the late biographed don’t serves the purposes of Wikipedia. Fuchida is today regarded by serious historians in West and in Japan as a falsifier of events. So, it’s necessary to point legitimate sources, lest this text will fall in simple self-glorification of the late Mitsuo Fuchida. Worse : the conversion “Damascus Road” is cited as history (remember : Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia !), but is only the romanticized version from Fuchida. (from carlos.cleto,adv@uol.com.br) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.106.71.196 (talk) 23:25, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Sources about Jacob DeShazer may help, if they are sufficiently reliable. - Fayenatic (talk) 19:14, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I encourage any who dispute facts on this page to provide specific information instead of generalized criticisms or weasel words and edit with properly sourced material and maintain an NPOV. Fuchida's biography was based in part on many interviews between Gordon Prange and Fuchida. Mr. Prange was a history professor and the chief historian of General Douglas MacArthur's staff and extremely knowledgeable about the Pacific War. The book was edited by Dr. Donald Goldstein, former professor of the Graduate School of Public and International Affairs at the University of Pittsburgh, author of several acclaimed books on Pearl Harbor and the Pacific War, and one of the top experts in that area of history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theleopard (talk • contribs) 05:58, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Excuse me. Prange and Goldstein's personal qualifications are not in dispute. (And I wonder why you wave around their credentials like a flag while blithely discounting Parshall and Tully's work as "[an] opinion piece," "[not] properly sourced," etc.)

At the time they wrote, Prange and Goldstein believed the things that Fuchida said. Since then, Parshall and Tully conclusively discredited Fuchida. Their work was published in a major and well-received book and in a paper for the US Naval War College Review, which were cited in the section you removed. To my knowledge no-one has since risen to defend Fuchida (how could they, the evidence against him is overwhelming, especially in his surrender ceremony whopper where his lies can be exposed with forensic thoroughness.)

There is absolutely nothing NPOV about removing well-documented criticisms of Fuchida's statements. The guy bullshitted, a lot. He got caught. His bio should say so. TiC ^(talk) 23:24, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles aren't appropriate opinion forums. Fuchida's book on Midway was co-authored by Masatake Okumiya (another BSer?) with introductions by four other respected American and Japanese experts (also BSers?) who affirmed the book passing the test of time. After decades of being in print the book has proven to be overwhelmingly accurate by those other than Fuchida (see introductions). Parshall's theories prove interesting, but were not conclusive. Far from discrediting Fuchida, Parshall's conclusions regarding the "fateful five minutes" at Midway are rejected by perhaps a more astute researcher and writer, Dallas Woodbury Isom, author of "Midway Inquest."

I have always respected the work in "Shattered Sword" but it is not infallible.

None of the three so-called "whoppers" Parshall theorizes about (is TitaniumCarbide really Parshall or Tully?) have ever been disproved. None. All of them are deemed viable by the three authors/editors of "God's Samurai." Goldstein accepts Fuchida's testimony regarding the "third attack" and he is perhaps THE most authoritative expert on Pearl Harbor, Parshall isn't an expert in any way on the event. Even Fuchida's account of being on the USS Missouri is fully plausible by many standards. No one has refuted them. There is no complete roster of all those aboard the ship that day and Fuchida never claimed or even intimated he was a part of any official boarding party, only as an aid to facilitate transportation. He was already highly trusted by the Allies as he was responsible for disarming and securing all air bases in the area before the ceremonies. It's not pertinent to the article or worth the hassle so I've left out trying to fix that. If you are of a different opinion, that's fine, but a Wikipedia article isn't the forum to voice an opinion.

To cast a pall over a man's entire career based on a few unresolved controversies while ignoring the hundreds of pieces of totally accurate and reliable information he sourced is extremely unfair. Dead people can't respond, so others have to do it for them.

Lastly, these opinions are not pertinent to the article. None of the three supposed areas of dispute are a part of the summary article.

I would be happy to have this go through dispute resolution or mediation to ensure this article meets Wikipedia's standards for NPOV, Verifiability, and Reliable Sources. Referring to the opinions in another source do not qualify. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theleopard (talk • contribs) 01:57, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Parshall and Tully's opinions are prominent and notable. The article absolutely must include their criticism and accusations against Fuchida. Per WP:NPOV, we should describe all notable scholarship on Fuchida's life, including the very negative aspect shown by Parshall and Tully, and any other well respected opinion, too. We should always follow WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV by telling the reader which authors hold which opinions. We do not have to sort through the opinions to determine which ones are right (whatever that is), we just tell the reader all of the prominent opinions that have been published. Parshall and Tully are prominent. So is Mark R. Peattie and others. This cannot be the article that says all previous scholarship has been rendered obsolete by Isom. In fact, Tully responds to the Isom book by pointing out that the Midway battle still could not be won "because the operational plan itself was fatally flawed". James D. Hornfischer writes in the Wall Street Journal that Isom's conclusion about Midway is "hard to prove". Just a few thoughts... Binksternet (talk) 05:59, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't see a need to reply to most of what Theleopard has said, but Isom is worth mentioning. Here is what he has to say specifically about Fuchida's credibility:

"Fuchida’s account of the spotting of the second attack wave on the flight decks must be given credence. He obviously was familiar with Japanese carrier operations doctrine. Although there are details in his account of the morning’s activities that are questionable (he was in sick bay much of that time and learned of some of them secondhand)..." ... "Parshall and Tully say, essentially, that [Fuchida] lied. Fuchida did stretch the truth about some things—such as the 'fateful five minutes'—but this does not mean that he lied about everything."

So Isom's position is "sure he confabulated or made up details, and okay maybe he did lie, but SOMETIMES he told the truth." A ringing endorsement! TiC ^(talk) 06:17, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, for some strange reason you forgot to complete Isom's quote. Right after "...secondhand)" it reads, "... the fact that he assumed that the second-wave planes were raised to the flight deck immediately after the Midway strike force departed indicates that such an operation would not have been considered unusual, given the circumstances of that morning. I conclude that it was done." Looks like TitaniumCarbide could be a modern-day journalist by editing to present the exact opposite meaning of the truth. Nice work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.30.142.107 (talk) 07:40, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

For Gods sake. Parshall and Tully have a detailed tabular record of all of the Mobile Force's CAP launching and landing activities. They fully document that it took the Japanese carriers at least 30 minutes to spot or de-spot a strike force on deck, and that they had no doctrine or equipment whatsoever for launching / recovering CAP without having a clear deck. It was a dangerous nightmare to try and manhandle aircraft (in hangars or on decks) while the carriers were manouvering radically at high speed to avoid air attacks. Even once you spotted the planes it still would have taken at least 30 minutes to warm up and launch all of them, during which the task force would be restricted to steering more or less directly into the wind. The Midway strike takeoff ended around 0440; the Japanese began to augment their CAP at 0600. It makes no sense that the Japanese would have spotted an antiship strike with no indication of any ships around, while they were within attack range of a powerful land-based air force -- they would have had to de-spot it immediately to handle CAP issues.

There is just no way that Nagumo had a second-strike force on deck at any time between the launch of the Midway strike and the 1020 dive-bombing attack that destroyed 3 out of 4 Japanese carriers. Isom's lawyerly rationalization is completely outweighed by the detailed technical evidence in Shattered Sword. TiC ^(talk) 08:44, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

The essence of Fuchida's account was that the IJN was preparing to launch an attack but that the Americans hit them first, which is totally true. Did he exaggerate? Probably. If a baseball runner tries to steal second and is tagged out at 15 feet and he tells people it seemed more like 10 feet, who really cares? Does this make him a bald-faced liar? If so, everyone is a liar. The Japanese tried but didn't make it. No one in the general public cares a rat's ass about this kind of military minutia, especially in a brief summary article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theleopard (talk • contribs) 23:10, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

(outdent) IMO it has become clear that User:Theleopard's concerns are more about protecting Fuchida Mitsuo's reputation than WP:NPOV. I will restore the disputed section (in a toned-down form) per WP:BRD. TiC ^(talk) 06:43, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

"Some of Fuchida's statements have been challenged" are weasel words so they have to go. If you want to list all the people, then footnote it. All I see is Parshall ... I, too, have questioned a couple of Fuchida's statements, but over time have found most corroborated with other facts. The "fateful five minutes" was standard CYA (saving face in Japanese culture) that is still common in the military. It was more like twenty minutes. He was wrong to have stretched it, but he did. That doesn't make his entire book on Midway unreliable. Far from it. Hundreds of details are spot on. Two or three are disputed. I'm not about protecting Fuchida's reputation against reality, but against those with an ax to grind without facts to back it up. Wikipedia is about facts, not conjecture. Try to keep it all in perspective. This is a brief summary article.

That said, I know there is an open question regarding the "Third wave" so that's fine to leave in. The five minute deal has factual evidence to make a case, so I left that as well. Fuchida not being on the USS Missouri is pure speculation. Parshall's "whopper" diatribe is deep with speculation and includes a quote from someone who supposedly knew "Reverend" Fuchida, a title he never had (not ordained) and with which he was never called. The anecdote is obviously fake, making Parshall the "whopper" teller. Not good enough for Wikipedia. Again, Dr. Prange, who personally knew both General Douglas MacArthur and Fuchida considered it totally plausible, as did Dr. Donald Goldstein, author of At Dawn We Slept. To override people who were extremely familiar with military protocol or who were in Japan during the surrender ceremonies you need facts, not conjecture. If someone had a credible roster of all on board the USS Missouri during the ceremony, that would be conclusive. Would an entry in Wikipedia be allowed if one man had a theory that someone else invented the light bulb and that Edison was therefore a liar? With no facts? Re: WP:NPOV, you seem to be on a mission to totally discredit Fuchida far beyond reason. He was a flawed man, like all men, but for the most part his overall record has proven amazingly accurate and reliable.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Theleopard (talk • contribs)

You're calling Parshall the whopper teller? That's not how it works. Parshall's viewpoint has gained wide notice, so we reproduce it here. You have cut Parshall's part of the article by half. I don't agree with that. Binksternet (talk) 15:58, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't a forum for pontificating, it's for facts. Parshall's viewpoint is just that, a viewpoint. No op-eds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theleopard (talk • contribs) 17:09, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

We are getting closer to agreement here but I do not agree that Fuchida's account of the surrender ceremony should not be mentioned, since it is actually Parshall's most damning example of a Fuchida "whopper." It is the best documented of the three examples of unsupportable statements, and the one least explicable as result of confusion or errors of memory. TiC ^(talk) 06:53, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Parshall's claims were shown to be unfounded by a highly researched and footnoted article entitled "Jon Parshall's Whoppers Examined" - http://heynotsofast.wordpress.com. When fact-checked, virtually every claim Parshall makes is false. A friend sent me an e-mail with this and showed me the response of Don Goldstein, co-author of "Miracle at Midway" who also found the new article accurate. Wikipedia is not a place for speculation and Parshall's piece is not credible, therefore the last section was removed. Read the article thoroughly before future revisions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theleopard (talk • contribs) 13:48, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Wow, you're using an unsigned blog post to discredit Parshall? That's pretty low, and against WP:RS. We cannot use that blog at all. Binksternet (talk) 16:53, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm just going to chime in here, since it's my work, and that of Anthony Tully, that's caused this interchange. First off, I'm not TitaniumCarbide. I sign all my posts jparshall. There are two points I'd like to raise. First, Theleopard, I'm fairly sure, is Martin Bennett, who (under his production company, Hungry Kitty) is working on selling a screenplay based on Mr. Fuchida's life and conversion to Christianity. Mr. Bennett has a financial interest in seeing his film project through to completion. This accounts for his rather heated reactions to any assertions that Fuchida's various WWII accounts are in any way flawed, because he feels that it undermines his ability to obtain funding for his movie project. As such, his comments clearly fail WP:NPOV. Mr. Bennett feels that he has a vested financial outcome in how Fuchida is portrayed, and admitted as much to me during a phone call he made to me on 14 March, 2012. He likewise admitted his frustration with how Mr. Fuchida is portrayed on Wikipedia, describing it as a game of "whackamole." The second point I'd raise is that, whether you agree with Tully and my conclusions regarding the veracity of Fuchida's various accounts, the fact that they are disputed is not in question. A dispute clearly exists. Therefore, it is right and proper for such a section to be present under Fuchida's entry in this encyclopedia. Removal is not congruent with either current scholarship on the matter, or Wikipedia's intent to provide NPOV on matters relating to its content. So, any attempts to remove it would be unfounded. Likewise, attempts to remove it for reasons of financial interest would not only be unfounded, but also unethical. In light of the attempts to expurgate this section from the record, I intend to monitor this page rather closely from now on. -jon parshall- Jparshall (talk) 16:01, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Subsequent to my writing above that the blog entry titled "Jon Parshall's Whoppers Examined" was not signed, it sprouted a signature: Martin Bennett. There's now even an author biography link at the blog, pointing to guy listed as "heynotsofast" at Gravatar. At the Gravatar link, Bennett's Fuchida film project is "now under development". So, yes, it looks like Martin Bennett, whether or not he contributes here as Theleopard, is financially tied to the story of Mitsuo Fuchida. I'm grimly amused that he lists Jon Parshall as a consultant or reviewer for his project, while simultaneously hosting the attack page "Jon Parshall's Whoppers Examined". That blog is no more useful to Wikipedia with a signature on it than it was before. It's a self-published source from a non-topic-expert person who has financial reasons to make Fuchida appear as an upright and truthful man, otherwise he is a flawed evangelist. Say, Bennett, why not rewrite the script to make Fuchida a flawed evangelist? I would go see that movie but I would pointedly stay home from a rah-rah film celebrating Fuchida's conversion to Christianity as a solution to all his problems. Binksternet (talk) 17:34, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Last surviving officer of Pearl Harbor

Hello wikipedians,

I read in a day-by-day Advent pamphlet today that at the end of the war, Fuchida realized he was the last surviving officer of the attack on Pearl Harbor. Are there any other sources that corroborate this? It would be worth including in the article, if it were true. GrimmC (talk) 17:31, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit: This appears to be untrue, as Minoru Genda survived the end of the war. However, I'm curious now as to how many Japanese Pearl Harbor vets from the officer corps actually made it to the end of the war. GrimmC (talk) 17:37, 7 December 2011 (UTC)