Talk:2013 Formula One World Championship

Hamilton and Mercedes

Okay, I've bent the rules a little bit here and added Hamilton to the driver table with Mercedes. I thought I should at least take the time to explain my reasoning for it and why I think it's an acceptable edit for now.

For the most part, I'm trying to get ahead of the curve and head off any problems on the page. When this news breaks, I'm expecting all hell to break loose on the blogosphere. I'm of the opinion that whatever Hamilton does is going to be very controversial and divide fans. Consequently, I'm expecting a mad rush to the page, and in the interests of making sure we record everything and get it right, I thought the best thing to do would be to add that content using a reliable source while the page is still stable.

As for the source itself, Tom Cary is pretty good. When I was writing the 2012 Bahrain Grand Prix protests page, I got a lot of content from him. I remember he broke news of the Force India petrol bomb incident and was consistently first with details of the attack, which were later verified by others, so he certainly passed WP:RELIABLE. I'm willing to treat him as a reliable source on this.

Please note that while I have jumped the gun a little bit and added this in without waiting for the official official confirmation, this is not intended to be a permanent addition to the page. Once the news breaks, I expect much more iron-clad sources will be added, though I won't have access to a computer to add them myself. For now, this is intended as a temporary solution intended to keep the article stable before the announcement. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 02:17, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I was gonna say, it hasn't ben confirmed yet. Also, what about Force India? They haven't officially signed Di Resta or Hulkenberg, and Alguersuari was reported to be joining either them or Sauber. TollHRT52 (talk) 12:54, 28 September 2012 (AEST)

The source provided is reliable enough for our purposes. It's only for a few hours, to stabilise the page against an influx of edits when Hamilton is confirmed.

As for Force India, if you read the source supplied, the team states that both drivers have a contract, but the team will not impede them if they get an offer for another team. I don't really know what your point you are trying to make about Jaime Alguersuari, because he has been linked to several teams, so all you're really doing is proving the point that he cannot be added to the table. He has an entry under "Driver changes" because he has said that he has a contract, and Pirelli has confirmed that he will leave their testing role. He is not in the driver table because there is no verifiable information on where he will go. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 03:17, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Being reliable does not mean that we can allow rumors. If the source specifically states that it is not yet confirmed, then it is a rumor. Just because that source is reliable with factual information does not mean we can make exceptions for items which he clearly states are not 100%. Whether or not hell breaks loose is not really our problem, and to sacrafice integrity in order to avoid trolls seems foolish. By time it is announced, we will have a reliable source within half an hour or so, and then we can keep the page correct. It seems pretty clear to me. The³5₉ (Talk) 03:20, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting that we add Alguersuari to the table, I was saying that the Force India team hadn't confirmed their line-up, and Alguersuari was a possible inclusion. It was something I just wanted to alert editors to, whilst adding reliable info to the title subject. TollHRT52 (talk) 15:39, 28 September 2012 (AEST)

Yes. Announced, or not at all. --Falcadore (talk) 05:10, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, we can put it down now, even though it wasn't removed in the first place. TollHRT52 (talk) 19:02, 28 September 2012 (AEST) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.197.53 (talk)

"STR" or "Toro Rosso"

On the pages for the F1 seasons from 2006 to 2012, Toro Rosso is listed as "Toro Rosso" in the constructor column of the teams and drivers section. Here, they're listed as "STR". Is there any reasoning behind that? Because if there isn't, it should be changed to "Toro Rosso" for consistency. –Ugncreative Usergname (talk) 23:08, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't the one who put it there, but in F1 telecasts in the little box that shows the driver and team, It is listed as "STR-Ferrari" not "Toro Rosso-Ferrari", and not just because of the fact it doesnt properly fit. TollHRT52 (talk) 09:20, 29 September 2012 (AEST) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.179.29.134 (talk)

FOM is just a broadcaster, they are not in charge of the championship titles. They also used to (I'm not sure if they still do) list Red Bull as RBR-Renault, simply as a short hand. The team is Toro Rosso-Ferrari. The³5₉ (Talk) 23:23, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

WP:F1 convention is to refer to the cars as "Toro Rossos". DH85868993 (talk) 00:01, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Grand Prix of America

I was just wondering if the Grand Prix of America is suppose to be called that way? Because on the FIA website, it's called the Grand Prix of Jersey (New York). Should we rename it or leave it?

Fabzzz (talk) 01:31, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

A similar discussion is in progress at Talk:Grand_Prix_of_America#Article_move:_Grand_Prix_of_Jersey?. DH85868993 (talk) 01:43, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Unsourced signings

I've taken the liberty of removing a lot of unsourced driver signings (under IP address 86.142.11.201), as they were little more than speculation and not in keeping with the guidelines for the table. Much as people may be keen to see certain pairings, or favourite drivers on the grid, please let's try and keep it to confirmed signings. WelshDaveRyan (talk) 11:17, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

It's better than the string of different IP's that made huge changes all at once a few days back, at least these ones are just speculation rather than silly names. BosleyTree (talk) 11:47, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

True, but as the guidelines say:

"ATTENTION! PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING ANY EDITS TO THIS PAGE

DO NOT ADD TO THIS SECTION UNLESS YOU HAVE RELIABLE, CREDIBLE SOURCES TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS. ANY INFORMATION WITHOUT REFERENCES WILL BE DELETED ON SIGHT. NO MATTER HOW "LIKELY" IT IS THAT A DRIVER WILL BE SIGNED BY A TEAM, EVERYTHING IS TO BE CONSIDERED PURE SPECULATION UNTIL SUCH TIME AS THE TEAM OR A CREDIBLE NEWS SOURCE (ie F1-LIVE, AUTOSPORT, GP UPDATE, etc) REPORTS ON IT, OR ELSE IT WILL BE REQUESTED THAT THIS PAGE BE FULLY PROTECTED"

and again:

"DO NOT add drivers to this table without a reference. Unreferenced additions will be deleted"

If a rumour comes with a suitable source I guess we could always add a "Rumours" section or similar to account for it, but the main table isn't really the place. Otherwise we'll be spending more time removing drivers from seats they didn't have in the first place than actually putting the right drivers in them. WelshDaveRyan (talk) 11:06, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

That's not a guideline, that's a warning. Simply having an article from a website that can normally be used as a reliable source does not make the specific rumored source within the article credible. Wikipedia policy does not allow for articles to become rumor mills. The³5₉ (Talk) 17:10, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps I should have clarified - I was seeking to explain why rumoured drivers needed to be left out of the table, rather than actually saying "we need a rumours section". If one was deemed appropriate within Wikipedia policy and fulfilled the relevant source criteria, then I was arguing that such rumours belong in that sort of section only. As things stand, I don't believe the article needs one and my main focus was on explaining why the table should be kept for referenced signings only. Hope that clears things up. WelshDaveRyan (talk) 20:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Little mistake

Hey there, just wat to say that there's a mistake in the dirver line up. Nico Hülkenberg is not with Ferrari next year ;) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.186.43.228 (talk) 16:54, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

When did that happen? I never remember that occuring. TollHRT52 (talk) 17:36, 1 October 2012 (AEST) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.217.176.121 (talk)

Does it really matter when it happened, just so long as it is removed? Prisonermonkeys (talk) 07:36, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

And Nico Hulkenberg hasnt been confirmed at Sauber, he has still a contract with Force India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.251.21.87 (talk) 20:34, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

The Person who keeps adding unreferenced sources to this and other articles

Please don't do it without a reliable reference. If in doubt about anything, then put it on the talk page first and not in the article, because otherwise don't add rumours, that's apparently for wikinews, not an encyclopedia.

• Ferrari are considering Paul di Resta, Felipe Massa and Nico Hulkenberg for next year, but since the Force India drivers are in the article, then it could stay, but this is to be discussed, and I have therefore put "citation needed" on it.
• Romain Grosjean hopes to keep his seat, but no reliable source is yet to appear for this. Again, he is "citation needed", as to give somebody a chance to find a reliable source.
• Pastor Maldonado has been confirmed at Williams for the next few years, but the source confirming that has disappeared. Whoever found the original source, could you please insert this back into the article, as for now, it's citation needed.

Pch172 (talk) 15:58, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

It's not just a single person. Further, since they're from IP editors, they're not going to be reading the talk page at all. There is already a warning buried within the article to try and stop this, but there is no way to really convince those who want to do it. The³5₉ (Talk) 19:05, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

There is a simple and efficient method, to stop those edits: edit=autoconfirmed --Gamma127 (talk) 19:48, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Pch172, please do not put in citation needed templates simply because you think it is likely that Massa, Grosjean and Maldonado will continue racing with their respective teams. Opinion is no substitute for fact. Until such time as you can find a reliable source stating that Driver A will race for Team B, please leave the driver field blank.

This is why your citation needed templates are inappropriate:

1) As you say, Ferrari is considering one of three drivers. And although there are sources supporting di Resta and Hulkenberg at Force India, Vijay Mallya has said that he will not stand in the way of either driver if they are offered a contract with a front-running team. Even if Force India change their stance and keep Hulkenberg and di Resta absolutely, that does not automatically mean that Massa will stay with Ferrari. Other rumours in the silly season have linked Heikki Kovalainen to that seat, so it is conceiveable that neither Massa, di Resta not Hulkenberg will race for Ferrari.

2) It doesn't matter what Romain Grosjean "hopes" will happen. If he doesn't have a contract, he doesn't have a contract, and he cannot be included in the table. If all it took was a driver saying he "hoped" to race for a team, pretty much every driver on the grid would be listed as driving for Ferrari.

3) In the case of Maldonado, he has recently made comments that he is "keeping his options open" for 2013. While this is not enough to justify removing him from the table on its own, there is no source available that states he will be driving for Williams in 2013. Because we cannot prove that he is driving for them, we cannot include him. The original source given was taken from a magazine that nobody seems to be able to confirm.

Putting a citation needed template into an article does not make speculative edits okay. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 00:02, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Please don't moan at me, because it wasn't me that inserted those drivers into the respective teams. Also, I was giving the person that inserted those drivers into the table a chance to find a reliable source, and if no reliable source was found, I would deleted it myself. This is now a probable cause of action since they're from IP editors Pch172 (talk) 12:13, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

The issue here is not that the edits were made in the first place. The issue here was that you added citation needed templates to the article, which opens up the door to speculative edits. If people see that, they will make whatever edits they like to the page, add a citation needed template and force everyone to go looking for the relevant source before either adding it in or removing the driver entirely. If you see unsourced edits in the future, delete them, unless you have a source to substantiate it. Don't worry about "giving the people a chance to find a reliable source" because that's not what we do here. Limit the article to what we can prove with a source.

If I'm "moaning" at you, then quite frankly, it's because you've done something to deserve it. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 23:00, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

South Korean Flagicon

What has happened to the flagicon of South Korea ()? TollHRT52 (talk) 18:03, 11 October 2012 (AEDST)

It's probably a problem with the image itself. I've raised the issue over at the relevant WikiProject, but it might take a while to get sorted out. Until then, there's not a lot that we can do. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 07:39, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Force India pair

I don't think we should have both Hulkenberg and Di Resta in the table yet as the source doesn't say they have a contract. It says that the team 'wont interfere' which doesn't mean they will 'keep' both either. I did read the article and it said both were there for the long term but from what i've seen and heard over the past few weeks through both the BBC and SkyF1 broadcasts is that neither driver actually has a contract with the team with both drivers are not sure of their future in the sport.

I could be wrong but i'm just curious as to why they should be there. And no i'm not suggesting that either is going to ferrari or whatever. BosleyTree (talk) 09:54, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

If the team confirm they will drive for Force India in 2013 they go in. If they are unconfirmed they do not. Simple. --Falcadore (talk) 11:52, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I know, so i'll take them out of the table since neither has a contract. Just getting clarification. BosleyTree (talk) 12:15, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Except the source specifically states that they do have a contract, they are simply free to seek out better contracts so long as Force India is given ample compensation for breaking their existing contracts. Which is the same with any contract for a driver, really. So to say they have no contract is a blatant falsehood. The³5₉ (Talk) 17:09, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Personally, that is the only source that says that di Resta will be there next year for sure, as we now know Hulkenberg is gone. I don't think it is reliable but I'm sure it will be debated. Chatterbox2000 (talk) 20:46, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

How do we know that Hulkenberg is gone?

Massa

The Source details that he is "likely" to be confirmed at Ferrari, but however, hasn't yet been confirmed, or does he have a contract, so should he removed from the drivers table for the time being? Pch172 (talk) 14:41, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Massa

The Source details that he is "likely" to be confirmed at Ferrari, but however, hasn't yet been confirmed, or does he have a contract, so should he removed from the drivers table for the time being? Pch172 (talk) 14:41, 14 October 2012 (UTC)