Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2013 April 17: Difference between revisions

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17 April 2013

Mabel Richardson

I believe that this deletion debate should have been relisted for a clearer consensus rather than closed as keep. There were two keep !votes for every delete, but of the six people who suggested keep, two were new users who went straight to deletion debates upon signing up, one was user who has made a few edits since signing in late December, all of which were to longevity articles, one was the article creator, and no one provided any policy-based or source-based rationale for their !vote, but instead used their subjective judgement on what they felt was notable. While I certainly don't believe that there was a consensus to delete, given the history of canvassing offline about longevity articles (among other problems with articles such as these), I believe that relisting the debate to allow for more unbiased/neutral opinions would have been appropriate in this case. A recent comment on the article's talk page suggests that the proposed deletion would have benefited from further debate. Canadian Paul 20:49, 17 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the above. Boleyn (talk) 07:24, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse or Overturn (to no consensus to delete). Follow advice at Wikipedia:Renominating_for_deletion. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:33, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
overturn The only claim to significant notability is, as is said, from IMDB, so it's worthless. After that the only real claim is for someone else. The keep votes relied on the unreliable notability claim and can be discounted. Mangoe (talk) 12:15, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I wrote the article's talk comment, but it wasn't about the worthiness of the article, only the worthlessness of the DYK as worded (and DYK Talk has conceded that a better hook would have been the actress's longevity). I'd mentioned how the original AfD-keep decision had been hampered by a cite-ref to a pay firewall site but I didn't say AfD-keep was wrong! Nor that one shouldn't make a decision based on a pay firewall source (it was all fairly looked into, and the full source-text is readable at '100 Club, topic 1088' although that website's host is unfortunately Wiki-blacklisted, preventing direct cite-ref). Having come across the article from an unbiased/neutral position and looked into the article subject quite deeply yesterday (also read various cite-refs including ones deleted in early April) I feel there's an even stronger case for keeping it. The subject is worthy of remark for a) her longevity, b) her having known and worked with some major film stars, although she herself did not achieve fame, and c) because the article states her husband accompanied Chaplin (!!) to the USA on his first? visit. I think more may emerge about this in time (the article only makes the barest mention), and therefore both this article and a possible future one about her husband could well become important silent film era "stubs". Pete Hobbs (talk) 18:16, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn Looking at the !votes, I believe a keep close is not justified. Of the six keep !votes, three (Futurist110, sophiahounslow, ExRatargue that the person is notable because of her age. However, notability is not for us to judge but for reliable sources to state so these three keep !votes should have been ignored. A fourth, Oscarlake, states that the combination of age and acting makes her notable. But, again, that's a personal opinion and needs to be backed up by a reliable source. The Listmeister keep !vote is sounder but the "oldest" statement is sourced to IMDB which is definitely not a reliable source. The final keep !vote, Miskatonik, quotes the Press-Telegraph article which, at least in the free summary, doesn't really assert notability. All in all, I'm not sure what the rationale for a keep decision is here. --regentspark (comment) 20:54, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There's a clear consensus to keep, and the closer correctly identified it, so no blame attaches to him and I would prefer not to use the word "overturn". If he made an error in not checking the debate participants' contribution histories, then it was an understandable one. But I agree with the nominator's comments about the risk of sockpuppetry in longevity-related discussions, and I can well understand his concerns. There's honest doubt about whether this consensus is real or engineered. Relist with a semi-protected AfD so that we can have a discussion that's convincingly sockpuppet-free and will give the nominator confidence in the outcome.—S Marshall T/C 07:48, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Somaya Reece

No consensus was reached in the discussion. Discussed with closing admin first. JHunterJ (talk) 11:18, 17 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse looks like the closing admin explained it pretty clearly regarding triviality of sources. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:05, 17 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse what Andrew Lenahan says. I also took a look at the sources and concur with the closing admins opinion. --regentspark (comment) 18:41, 17 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn per WP:HOTTIE. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:29, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
temporarily restored for discussion at Deletion Review Altho a BLP, I see nothing potential derogatory or harful to prevent temporary restoration. DGG ( talk ) 16:20, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion-based processes on Wikipedia are not a sham. They are genuine and meaningful attempts to seek consensus and implement it.
In my view, the reason why Darkwind, Starblind and RegentsPark are wrong is because their reasoning is based on the closer's evaluation of the sources. It's not up to the closer to evaluate sources. Sysops do not make content decisions. They're not empowered to. Sysops evaluate consensus.
If it was up to sysops to evaluate sources, then there would be little purpose in discussion-based processes on Wikipedia and we might as well replace AfD with a list of articles for administrators to examine and delete or retain based on their personal judgment. But we don't do that. Our processes are not a sham.
I was assisted in reaching this conclusion by one of my big red flags of a poor close: the closer uses the closing statement to give you their opinion. That's a really annoying habit because it falsely implies that the closer's personal opinion was actually the consensus in the debate. It's not what closing statements are for. If you want to express an opinion, vote. Your closing statement is your chance to explain your assessment of the consensus in a neutral way. It should be used only for that purpose.
Overturn and relist for another sysop to close based on an assessment of consensus rather than his opinion of the sources.—S Marshall T/C 08:06, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that the sources are evaluated in the discussion itself, i.e., the delete !voters have pointed to the weaknesses in the sources. If a !voter says that the sources amount to "trivial coverage", how can the closing admin evaluate that claim without looking at the source itself? (I assume darkwind did not merely accept the claim at face value.) --regentspark (comment) 13:58, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
And the keep !voters pointed to the ways the sources met the guidelines, and there was no consensus between them. It's not that the keep !votes were using reasons outside the guidelines (and so the closing admin should have discarded those arguments), it's that there was no consensus whether the guidelines were met. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:50, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There's a difference between a disagreement and a consensus. The difference is that a consensus is based on the weight of previous discussions in the form of Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and that consensus is that trivial coverage of this type does not warrant a Wikipedia article; disagreeing does not create "no consensus" in that regard any more than it would create a "no consensus" that VH1 is an independent source for this article. - Sudo Ghost 15:00, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The coverage is trivial according to whom? Whose judgment prevails?—S Marshall T/C 16:06, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Good question. But, if one user says that the coverage is trivial and another says it is not, then do we close every such discussion as 'no consensus' because the closing admin should not read the source? If that were the case, then everything that is mentioned in any source at all would be an automatic keep - which doesn't make sense. Our policy says that trivial mentions are insufficient for notability and it is the closing admins job to evaluate whether the mention is trivial or not. --regentspark (comment) 16:36, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

According to the elaboration given at WP:GNG. When an editor's judgement is that VH1 is an independent source for someone on a VH1 reality show, it doesn't inspire confidence when they then say that a single brief mention in a reference is anything more than trivial coverage; this is one of the articles he added that supposedly showed notability, and that is as trivial as a source can get. That editor's judgement is the only "keep" rationale given, the other two were "per JHutnerJ" and an IP editor claiming that biographies shouldn't have to show notability. That single rationale might be a disagreement, but it does not create lack of consensus in doing so. - Sudo Ghost 16:16, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see that JHunterJ disposed of that exact point during the debate by reference to the exact wording of WP:GNG. We can't decide here whether the sources were trivial because this is not AfD round 2. What matters is whether there was consensus that the sources were trivial.

RegentsPark's argument is that where two users disagree, sysops need to look at the source to decide which is right. This is a respectable argument, and I agree that can happen where one user is obviously and plainly mistaken. I don't think this was in that discretion area. JHunterJ's a user of sufficiently distinguished contribution history to command any closer's respect; the points he raised should not have been disregarded in that way.—S Marshall T/C 17:51, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is a difference between "being disregarded" and not making a rationale consistent with Wikipedia's guidelines; I didn't give that example as an "AfD round 2", it was linked to show that JHunterJ's rationale was not based on Wikipedia's definition of trivial, per WP:GNG, and therefore does not give much weight in determining consensus. Are you really suggesting that "a user of sufficiently distinguished contribution history" should be given more consideration than other editors on the sole basis that they have a longer contribution history? - Sudo Ghost 18:09, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not all users are equal. This is not a democracy; there's no bill of rights here. Our processes exist to support content contributors, not the other way around. Content contributors are given a great deal of leeway.
While everyone has a voice in debate, I think it's undoubtedly true that to an experienced closer, some voices carry more weight than others. Certain users seem to have special needs of some kind, or perhaps edit while medicated, and are best quietly disregarded. Users with a handful of contributions who focus on a single topic area; users who always !vote to "keep" everything regardless of how trivial and unencyclopaedic; users who always !vote to "delete" because even when the title should be a bluelink, it's easier to start with a clean sheet; users who create few articles and are mainly discussion-page gadflies rather than encyclopaedia-builders; these are examples of less credible !votes that will sometimes, rightly, be given less weight. On the other hand, users who have long and varied experience, a track record of well-reasoned and thoughtful comments in discussion, and a long string of solid and unproblematic content contributions to their credit, who are clearly here to build an encyclopaedia, are less lightly dismissed.—S Marshall T/C 19:49, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree completely, I think the rationale should hold more weight than who says it. It is true that experienced editors tend to give more convincing rationales that are in-line with how Wikipedia operates, but such an opinion is given more weight because of the rationale, not because of the editor who says it. Conversely, an editor with very few edits can make a wonderful rationale, the amount of time spent on Wikipedia does not detract from that nor is it given less consideration for that fact. When an experienced editor gives a poor rationale, it holds little weight because the rationale doesn't hold up when viewed through the lens of Wikipedia's guidelines and policies, that fact shouldn't be ignored simply because there is a claim of "long and varied experience". That is an argument from authority and isn't how Wikipedia operates on any level. - Sudo Ghost 20:06, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse - Per my comment above (disclosure, I nominated the article for deletion). - Sudo Ghost 15:00, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 33: / Line 33: @@
 *:There is a difference between "being disregarded" and not making a rationale consistent with Wikipedia's guidelines; I didn't give that example as an "AfD round 2", it was linked to show that JHunterJ's rationale was not based on Wikipedia's definition of trivial, per [[WP:GNG]], and therefore does not give much weight in [[Wikipedia:CONSENSUS#Determining consensus|determining consensus]].  Are you really suggesting that "a user of sufficiently distinguished contribution history" should be given more consideration than other editors on the sole basis that they have a longer contribution history? - [[User:SudoGhost|Sudo]][[User_talk:SudoGhost#top|Ghost]] 18:09, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 ::*Not all users are equal.  This is not a democracy; there's no bill of rights here.  Our processes exist to support content contributors, not the other way around.  [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Content contributors are given a great deal of leeway.]]<p>While everyone has a voice in debate, I think it's undoubtedly true that to an experienced closer, some voices carry more weight than others.  Certain users seem to have special needs of some kind, or perhaps edit while medicated, and are best quietly disregarded.  Users with a handful of contributions who focus on a single topic area; users who always !vote to "keep" everything regardless of how trivial and unencyclopaedic; users who always !vote to "delete" because even when the title should be a bluelink, it's easier to start with a clean sheet; users who create few articles and are mainly discussion-page gadflies rather than encyclopaedia-builders; these are examples of less credible !votes that will sometimes, rightly, be given less weight.  On the other hand, users who have long and varied experience, a track record of well-reasoned and thoughtful comments in discussion, and a long string of solid and unproblematic content contributions to their credit, who are clearly here to build an encyclopaedia, are less lightly dismissed.—[[User:S Marshall|<font face="Verdana" color="Maroon">'''S Marshall'''</font>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 19:49, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
-:::*I disagree completely, I think the rationale should hold more weight than who says it.  It is true that experienced editors tend to give more convincing rationales that are in-line with how Wikipedia operates, but such an opinion is given more weight because of the ''rationale'', not because of the editor who says it.  Conversely, an editor with very few edits can make a wonderful rationale, the amount of time spent on Wikipedia does not detract from that nor is it given less consideration for that fact.  When an experienced editor gives a poor rationale, it holds little weight because the rationale doesn't hold up when viewed through the lens of Wikipedia's guidelines and policies, that fact shouldn't be ignored simply because there is a claim of "long and varies experience".  That is an argument from authority and isn't how Wikipedia operates on any level. - [[User:SudoGhost|Sudo]][[User_talk:SudoGhost#top|Ghost]] 20:06, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
+:::*I disagree completely, I think the rationale should hold more weight than who says it.  It is true that experienced editors tend to give more convincing rationales that are in-line with how Wikipedia operates, but such an opinion is given more weight because of the ''rationale'', not because of the editor who says it.  Conversely, an editor with very few edits can make a wonderful rationale, the amount of time spent on Wikipedia does not detract from that nor is it given less consideration for that fact.  When an experienced editor gives a poor rationale, it holds little weight because the rationale doesn't hold up when viewed through the lens of Wikipedia's guidelines and policies, that fact shouldn't be ignored simply because there is a claim of "long and varied experience".  That is an argument from authority and isn't how Wikipedia operates on any level. - [[User:SudoGhost|Sudo]][[User_talk:SudoGhost#top|Ghost]] 20:06, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 *'''Endorse''' - Per my comment above (disclosure, I nominated the article for deletion). - [[User:SudoGhost|Sudo]][[User_talk:SudoGhost#top|Ghost]] 15:00, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Revision as of 20:11, 19 April 2013

17 April 2013

Mabel Richardson

Somaya Reece

Scooby-Doo 3 (closed)