Talk:Yane Sandanski

Category

Please stop adding "Macedonian revolutionaries" cat when the person is clearly not ethnic Macedonian. ForeignerFromTheEast 23:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Please grant the independence of California, since the state is clearly not in the USA. iNkubusse^? 15:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

How is this relevant to the article? ForeignerFromTheEast 15:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not. The ethnicity of Jane Sandanski is not clear, far from it. You not that. Why do you make statements like this one: "..the person is clearly not.... Jane Sandanski was a Macedonian (not Republic, just Macedonian) revolutionary and his goal was an autonomous Macedonian state, right? You have to understand that he's only considered a Bulgarian or Macedonian revolutionary, there are no facts here. iNkubusse^? 16:00, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Do the views of Sandanski himself count? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Decx (talk • contribs) 16:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Please bring Mr. Sandanski here, or link us to his user page. BTW, whose puppet is this now? iNkubusse^? 16:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

His views can be illustrated by his recorded quotes. You say he was Macedonian as in ethnic Macedonian basing this on the fact that he was seeking an independent Macedonia (or "free Bulgarian Macedonia" in his own words), that does not equate with him being ethnic Macedonian. I'm surprised things as basic as this need explaining. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Decx (talk • contribs) 16:47, 25 October 2007 (UTC) ]

His ethnicity is not clear and the article only shows proof that he is considered Bulgarian by the Bulgarians and by some Western authors, but that is no proof for his ethnicity! Not even a newspaper article! We can't be sure that Sandanski really uttered those words! It is absolutely no harm if this article is in that category. He is considered a Macedonian revolutionary and he has to be in that category. After all (I'll say it once again), he fought for an autonomous Macedonia, doesn't this make him a Macedonian revolutionary?! iNkubusse^? 23:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

No it does not make him. Ethnicity is not related to actions. Also, his ethnicity is disputed only in the Republic of Macedonia. ForeignerFromTheEast 23:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm happy to see though that you admit he is considered Bulgarian by western scholars, too. Cause it is the reliable un-biased secondary sources that we need. If we start adding the official documents and letters, I'm pretty sure the only thing you'd say i s falsification. --Laveol ^T 23:42, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

You're right, ethnicity is not related to actions. The interview he "gave" for the Italian newspaper doesn't prove anything (he just may wanted to say that he is a Russian fighting for Germany). Thank you for helping me explain. And no, it's not disputed only in the Republic of Macedonia. His ethnicity is simply not clear! Anyway, like it or not, he is considered an ethnic Macedonian, just as he is considered an ethnic Bulgarian.

Laveol, I would say it's a falsification if it looks like one :P But I'm not saying that no western scholars considered him Bulgarian, of course they did. But there are those who deny it, and those who simply say that his ethnicity can't be strictly defined. It's a very controversial matter and you're trying to solve it very easily, but it doesn't work that way. iNkubusse^? 23:58, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

His ethnicity is not clear and controversial matter only in the Republic of Macedonia. ForeignerFromTheEast 00:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

1° No, it's not.
2° It's not a controversial matter in the Republic of Macedonia. iNkubusse^? 00:13, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Canadian news sites? No thanks. ForeignerFromTheEast 00:20, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

LOL! iNkubusse^? 00:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

No, seriously the text is full of nonsense. What violent clashes with the police? What banned Macedonian orthodox church? And stop with the all orthodox Slavs were considered Bulgarians. --Laveol ^T 10:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

This question is controversial in Republic of Macedonia. Don't forget the position of Macedonian historians I. Katardzhiev and Z. Todorovski. They assert that all IMRO activists had Bulgarian ethnic self-consciousness:

• The Bulgariannes of Sandanski is recognized by several Macedonian historians like academician Ivan Katardzhiev, director of the Historical Sciences section in the Department of Social Sciences in the Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts and the director of the Macedonian State archive Ph. D. Zoran Todorovski. Katardzhiev defines all Macedonian revolutionaries from the period before 1930-ies as "Bulgarians" and asserts that separatism of some Macedonian revolutionaties toward official Bulgarian policy was only political phenomenon without ethnic character (an interview for "Forum" magazine, in Macedonian, retrieved on September 6, 2007). Todorovski asserts that "All of them declared themselves as Bulgarians..." and "he considered himself as Bulgarian too" about Sandanski (an interview for www.tribune.eu.com, June 27, 2005, in Macedonian, retrieved on June 26, 2007). - Vulgarian 01:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

They are only two historians. And you use them two to write stuff like this: ...by a minority of historians in the Republic of Macedonia. I think the terms minority and majority are a bit mixed up here. iNkubusse^? 12:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad you've admitted that this question is controversial in Republic of Macedonia. Of course you can give different points of view of other Macedonian historians. Greetings, GriefForTheSouth 14:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

iNkubusse^?, don't forget that this contemporary internal Macedonian dispute concerns all IMARO activists before WWII. Gyorche Petrov, Gotse Delchev, Nikola Karev and so on... - GriefForTheSouth 15:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say that. The Bulgarian POV is supported only by Bulgarophiles, just like the Macedonian POV is supported by the Macedonians in Bulgaria (who, by the way, have no human rights). iNkubusse^? 15:20, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I ask you again, please refrain from such comments. It is not even on the subject (besides not being true of course). --Laveol ^T 20:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'll try, but I have to comment on your comment: you're right, it's not true, and the many dudes and old men I spoke to in Pirin Macedonia are not true as well... Tito invented them! And the article Yane Sandanski belongs in the category Macedonian revolutionaries because the person is considered an ethnic Macedonian, no matter that it's not proven! Just like he is considered an ethnic Bulgarian! iNkubusse^? 04:29, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm nor removing the cat. We already (or at least we two) agreed - If the others revert you again, I'll add the cat back - let's hope I won't be reverted. I'm sorry, but I don't believe to what you said above (not accusing you of lying - I just don't believe you). --Laveol ^T 11:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, Laveol, someone here is not as constructive as you, it seems. Anyway, the other talk is way off-topic, I'd prefer your (or my) talk page. iNkubusse^? 17:12, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but him being an ethnic Macedonian is a fringe theory. ForeignerFromTheEast 17:15, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Fringe theories do not include whole countries! Don't be sorry and stop reverting!!! iNkubusse^? 22:00, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

No one is saying they include whole countries. ForeignerFromTheEast 22:04, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Well then, this theory is widely accepted in RoM, except for the two historians you admire. What about the rest of the country?! iNkubusse^? 22:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, let's have the cat - it's just a simple link right at the bottom of the article and just after "Bulgarian revolutionaries". A reader might get interested in the whole Bul-RoM issue and have his own investigation. --Laveol ^T 22:22, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

No, Laveol, we musn't let the reader know that there is any issue! (see: irony) iNkubusse^? 23:05, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

inkubisse, you´re crazy!!!!!i´m from petrich,from pirin macdonia.i have lived 5 years in blagoevgrad.there is no such thing like ethnic macedonians in bulgaria!!!open your eyes! we are bulgarians,we say that we com from macedonia as a region.we are not opressed,we can speakour dialect whenever we want,sing our songs, etc. by the way in about every second town or village in the region there are other dialect chracteristics!!!! read some foreign press —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.78.32.131 (talk) 14:57, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the nice words. I have nothing to say to you, I believe my eyes an ears. iNkubusse^? 15:31, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Interesting - it sounds like all people from Blagoevgrad province. Some of my colleagues even enjoy calling you Fyromians (or Byuromians in Bulgarian). No, sorry, I believe my eyes and years as well - as obviously does the man who wrote the statement above yours. --Laveol ^T 16:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Your point? iNkubusse^? 16:29, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

None :) Just a general thought --Laveol ^T 17:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... It sounds different... Never mind. iNkubusse^? 18:10, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Pravilnik-sandanski.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:46, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

References

very doubtful references. :) :) :) anybody could have written these articles from the "promacedonia.org"-site. is there a prove that he declared himself Bulgarian? if not, the "references" should be not listed.

"published in the "Narodnay volya newspaper in 1909". show it! otherwise that link should be taken out, too.Cukiger (talk) 04:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

You're joking. The image is quite visible. --Laveol ^T 09:56, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I do not see any images from any "narodna volya newspaper".. not under reference 1 or 2 where it should probably be. these references are so ridiculous. Cukiger (talk) 05:01, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

You call it ridiculous just because you don't like it. Don't you see it's written that it was first published in the newspaper? Or you don't have to read it in order to call it ridiculous? --Laveol ^T 08:45, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

name

why isnt his name written in cyrillic? either macedonian or bulgarian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.207.72.93 (talk) 13:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I just included the Cyrillic versions of his name; I can't see why there wasn't any uptil now. --iNkubusse^? 16:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

POV edits

Please, stop vandalizing the article. Jingby (talk) 08:52, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Misinterpretation of the reference

In this reference ("Bulgaria was clearly treated by the Serres activists as a foreign, hostile force and Sandanski condemned what he called the Bulgarian imperialism. According to him, the Macedonians (incl. all ethnicities) had to emancipate themselves as a self-determining people(Siljanov, Ibid. 498).") It doesn't say (incl. all ethnicities), that's added by the wiki editor. It's about Stefan Kemilev, а lawyer from Bulgaria and opponent of Yane Sandanski, who witnessed:

— "Yanе had a theory that the Macedonian question should not be regarded as a part of the Bulgarian national ideals… He clearly stated that those who propagate "Bulgarian national unification" in Macedonia are death-enemies of IMRO, just like the Greek and the Serbian national-chauvinistic agitators. Furthermore, he disseminated the belief that the masses are an independent, distinctive people, and they have to believe in it. They mustn't rely on any of the alien forces." (Хриcтo Силянов: Освободителнитѣ борби на Македония, том II (изд. на Илинденската Орг., София, 1943; II фототипно изд. "Наука и Изкуство", София, 1983), с. 498.)

85.30.109.189 (talk) 21:26, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Also, there was a false reference about Deliradev speaking about "Bulgarian population" in Macedonia (See Pavel Deliradev, Razvitieto na federativnata ideya, Makedonska misal, Book 5-6, 1946, pp. 203-208.). In the source there's no such a statement of Deliradev. He even say that all the Macedonians and the Bulgarians should oppose the Bulgarian chauvinist agenda, in the very same source. If needed, I'll find a way to provide the pages. 79.126.169.242 (talk) 13:06, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Of course it's added by an editor, that's why it in braces and it's just a context clarification. Regarding your "quote" from Hristo Silyanov - its misquoted & biased. Can you please show me where on page 498 it writes "national-chauvinistic"? Vandalizing articles & misquoting will not prove your personal view point. --StanProg (talk) 13:24, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Just as a heads up, 79.126.169.242 is a possible sock of User_talk:Bobi987_Ivanov , who has been blocked for a week due to edit warring. More info here and possibly here Tropcho (talk) 13:43, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

OK then, let's provide the quote as it is, without misinterpretations:

— "Yanе had a theory that the Macedonian question should not be regarded as a part of the Bulgarian national ideals… He clearly stated that those who propagate "Bulgarian national unification" in Macedonia are death-enemies of IMRO, just like the Greek and the Serbian agitators. Furthermore, he disseminated the belief that the masses are an independent, distinctive people, and they mustn't rely on any of the alien forces." (Хриcтo Силянов: Освободителнитѣ борби на Македония, том II (изд. на Илинденската Орг., София, 1943; II фототипно изд. "Наука и Изкуство", София, 1983), с. 498.)

79.126.169.242 (talk) 14:10, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

And here is the actual quote: "Everyone who is agitating in Macedonia or out of it based on: liberation and unification of the Bulgarians, should be met with hostility by IMRO, just as the Organisation mets the Serbian and Greeks agitations and chetas" and "Yane had theory theory that it's fatal to the Macedonian population and Bulgaria itself, the Macedonian question to be treated in sense of national unification of the Bulgarians and that people of the other stream has sold themselvs to the Bulgarian government". Now could you explain me where exactly you see "Bulgarian national ideals…" in this quote? And "He explained in general that should be worked for awakening consciousness of the masses that they are separate people that are entitled to free life and that we must fight for gaining their freedom without relying on external aid for these who would come to release them will actually come to enslave then". Do you see the huge difference between the original quote and your interpretation which you claim as "quote"? Can you please tell me where did you get your "quotes" from (mine are from the book itself)? --StanProg (talk) 15:03, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

And please, do not call the fake quote provided by you "a misinterpretation" - a quote is either exact or falsified/fake. --StanProg (talk) 15:14, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm glad that you are trying to be objective. It makes me more objective. But, actually, the second citation of yours, (THAT IS ACTUALLY FIRST IN THE ORIGINAL TEXT) says:

"Yane had a theory that it's fatal to the Macedonian population and Bulgaria itself, the Macedonian question to be treated in sense of national unification of the Bulgarians (or, as I'd said, "BULGARIAN NATIONAL UNIFICATION"), and that people of the other stream has sold themselvs to the Bulgarian government".

The 1st citation of yours has only needed some little grammatical corrections, I think -

"Everyone who is agitating in or out of Macedonia upon: liberation and unification of the Bulgarians, should be met with hostility by IMRO, just as the Organization meets the Serbian and the Greek agitations and bands." 85.30.127.197 (talk) 15:31, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

But, most of all,

"Furthermore, he [Yane Sandanski] was preaching and disseminating the belief among the masses that they are an independent, distinctive people, that they have the right to be free fighting on their own and they mustn't rely on any of the alien forces, because those who'd come, wouldn't be liberators, but subduors."

We are close, really close to what Sandanski wanted to say. 85.30.127.197 (talk) 15:56, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

So, "Yane had a theory that it's fatal to the Macedonian population and Bulgaria itself, the Macedonian question to be treated in sense of Bulgarian national unification... he was preaching and disseminating the belief, among the masses, that they are an independent, distinctive people, that they have the right to be free fighting on their own and they mustn't rely on any of the alien forces, because those who'd come, wouldn't be liberators, but conquerors." 79.126.188.253 (talk) 16:58, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Accusation for vandalism

Someone's accused me for vandalism on this article. Can he or she be more specific? 85.30.127.197 (talk) 18:18, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

None has accused you in that. Your talk page is empty as far as I can see. --StanProg (talk) 00:57, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

FALSE REFERENCE

There was a false reference about Deliradev speaking about "Bulgarian population" in Macedonia (See Pavel Deliradev, Razvitieto na federativnata ideya, Makedonska misal, Book 5-6, 1946, pp. 203-208.). Someone returned it back. In the source there's no such statement of Deliradev. He even say that all the Macedonians and the Bulgarians should oppose the Bulgarian chauvinist agenda, in the very same source. If needed, a way to provide the pages will be found. 79.126.188.253 (talk) 17:08, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

The footer note is not a quote, so it's not required the same words to be in the book. That's why it begins with "See ...". The book and the pages are just listed for more information regarding the Federation idea. Please, take some time get into the principles of Wikipedia and learn the difference between quote & note.--StanProg (talk) 00:23, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

It's nowhere above said that the reference is a quote. It's an intentional misinterpretation. Deliradev clearly mentions the Macedonians and the Bulgarians as 2 separate entities. He never speaks about "Bulgarian population" in Macedonia. It's a Bulgarian propagandistic manipulation. 79.126.188.253 (talk) 01:33, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

We could, instead of this false interpretation of Deliradev's article, use this quote, but it's already taken, and also misinterpreted:

Stefan Kemilev, а lawyer from Bulgaria and opponent of Yane Sandanski, witnessed:

— "Yane had a theory that, it's not pleasant neither for the Macedonian population nor for Bulgaria itself, the Macedonian question to be treated in sense of Bulgarian national unification, and those who disagree with that theory have sold themselves to the Bulgarian government. He says, everyone in Macedonia, or outside, who propagates liberation and unification of the Bulgarians, should be death enemy to the IMRO, just like the Serbian and Greek agitations and bands. He claimed and disseminating the belief, among the masses, that they are an independent, distinctive people, that they have the right to be free fighting on their own and they mustn't rely on any of the alien forces, because those who'd come, wouldn't be liberators, but conquerors."" (Хриcтo Силянов: Освободителнитѣ борби на Македония, том II (изд. на Илинденската Орг., София, 1943), с. 498.)

We can use this reference, as well:

Pavel Deliradev, a well known Bulgarian publicist and theoretic, but also a co-idealist and fellow revolutionist of Sandanski's, name him as: a meritorious son of the Macedonian nation, who fought against the Bulgarian chauvinism, for a free, united and independent Macedonian state, which will have brotherly relations with all free Balkanic nations. (Pavel Deliradev's biography of Yane Sandanski, Sofia, 1946, pg. 44. and the exact page 13.)

...or, this one:

In 1904, Sandanski’s moto was “Macedonia for the Macedonins”, and he fought against the Turks and his enemies sent by the Supreme Committee in Sofia, Bulgaria. (a letter of the French diplomat in Constantinople, August 10, 1905 ; „Yane Sandanski about the distinctiveness of Macedonia and the Macedonians“, „Јане Сандански и македонското национално дело“, MANU, Skopje, 2007, pg. 89-96.) 79.126.189.141 (talk) 10:41, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

We could also use this quote: Atanas Djolev, Macedonian IMRO nationalist from the Strumica area and one of the many "Sandanist" sympathizers, in his "Memoirs" says: "Within the whole of Macedonia, the IMRO struggled equally against the three Balkan imperialist states, for completely autonomous and independent Macedonia... The liquidation of the "Sandanists" meant a kind of an end of this Macedonian nationalistic struggle, and the Organization was usurped by the bulgarophile servants… Our Macedonian revolutionists, amongst whom I was something like an ordinary soldier of Macedonia, struggled for Macedonia’s national liberation, above all. We could not wait our Macedonian brothers in Aegean Macedonia to become "Greeks", those in the Serbian-occupied part to become "Serbians" and the Pirin Macedonians to become "Bulgarians". The Macedonians then, nationally were enslaved by the three Balkan countries. It was important to us to be free to call ourselves Macedonians, and to speak and write on our native Macedonian language. Here, I want to point out that the history of the Macedonian people from 50 years ago must be seen as continuum of the period before 1941. It must be understood by the future generations of Macedonians that their fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers struggled for the same ideal. There were no differences between the 1903 and 1941, they had the same dreams." (Атанас Џолев – „Спомени”, „Премрежињата на македонското револуционерно движење - Спомени“, Скопје, 2006 г, стр. 223, 235-236) 79.126.189.141 (talk) 10:56, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I can't see your point. Do you want to fill the article with different sources, most of them pointing the population as Bulgarian, and few from the "historians" of Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, claiming that it is a Ethnic-Macedonian population? Is that your agenda? Trying to push a minority (local form FYROM) view point will just not work. An explanation that he is considered an ethnic Macedonian in Republic of Macedonia is enough to cover this view point. --StanProg (talk) 13:03, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Not all the sources are from Macedonian authors. First two are from Bulgarian authors. The second one is the one that was misinterpreted in the article. If needed, I'd show neutral sources. Bobi987 Ivanov (talk) 15:20, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Silynov is pretty clear and in his whole book he treats the Macedonian population as Bulgarians. The book of Deliradev is pure communist Comintern-influenced propaganda, published in 1946 when the Macedonian scientific institute (the publisher) is under full control of the Bulgarian Communist Party. ("After 1945 the activity of the MSI was changed to serve the macedonistic policy on the Macedonian Question in the People's Republic of Bulgaria and the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."). So this book is not a reliable source regarding issues related to "Slav Macedonian consciousness" (macedonistic policy). This forces Comintern-ideas back to 1903 when this communist organization did not existed and which ideas regarding the region of Macedonia were only supported by few people, like Misirkov. This is pushing of communist propaganda into the event that happened decades before. Please, revert the edits to the stable version so we can discuss how can we can actually improve the article and not pushing minority or ideological propaganda. --StanProg (talk) 16:14, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

> StanProg, 1. We are not talking about the Bulgarian historian Silyanov and his Bulgarian national-chauvinistic views on the Macedonian question. We talk about what Stefan Kemilev told him about Sandanski. Let's not extend the subject.

> 2. StanProg: "The book of Deliradev is pure communist Comintern-influenced propaganda" - Can you prove it? 79.126.191.39 (talk) 12:21, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

> 3. If Deliradev is a "pure communist Comintern-influenced propagandist," then why had his work been used in this article as a reference, and why was he misinterpreted? 79.126.191.39 (talk) 12:21, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

There's no need to prove that Deliradev. It can be clearly seen in his texts after the beginning of the communist regime. I did not added it, as you can see, but most probably it's added because it contains facts, that are not consequence of ideological propaganda. A source may be reliable reliable regarding one information, and at the same time unreliable for another. He is not misinterpreted, since as far as I can see he is not quoted. --StanProg (talk) 07:08, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

No, you need to prove it. And connect it with Sandanski's Macedonian nationalism, that was confirmed by Kemilev and Silyanov, as well.

"A source may be reliable regarding one information, and at the same time unreliable for another. He is not misinterpreted, since as far as I can see he is not quoted." - This is not an argument. A source can't be reliable when you misinterpret it, and at the same time unreliable when is quoted. Chakmak111 (talk) 13:01, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Why is Yane Sandanski recognised as a national hero in Bulgaria?

Yane (Jane) Sandanski was a Macedonian nationalist who fought for an independent Macedonian nation state. He fought against the Bulgarian nationalism, against greater Bulgarian nation. All sources confirm that.

Sandanski was born in the Macedonian-populated village of Vlahi near Kresna, Pirin Macedonia, on May 28, 1872. In 1879 his family moved to Dupnitsa, Bulgaria. Sandanski spent 16 years in the Bulgarian semi-independent state. He got his education there. He got his military education there as well, but he never became a Bulgarian nationalist, and he never acted like one.

Let’s see the facts. According to his very close and loyal friend Todor Panitsa, Sandanski was an Apostle of the Macedonian nation.

(Todor Panitsa interviewed by Elefterios Stavridis; Ελευθέριος Σταυρίδης - Τα Παρασκηνια του ΚΚΕ, Athens, 1953, pg. 213.)

In 1907, Stefan Kemilev, а lawyer from Bulgaria and opponent of Yane Sandanski, witnessed that Sandanski considered Bulgaria to be a foreign, hostile force, a synonym of what he called “Bulgarian imperialism”, and, according to him, the Macedonians had to emancipate themselves as a self-determining people.

(Хриcтo Силянов: Освободителнитѣ борби на Македония, том II (изд. на Илинденската Орг., София, 1943), с. 498.)

In 1908, during the Young Turk Revolution, Sandanski called his people and his compatriots, to discard the propaganda of the Bulgaria authorities in order to live together in a peaceful way with the Turkish people.

Later (1912–1913) Sandanski and his faction actively supported the Bulgarian army in the Balkan wars, initially fighting for Bulgaria, but with the idea, that their duty is to fight for autonomous, and later – independent Macedonia.

Unfortunately, on a banquet organized by General Georgi Todorov, when Sandanski tried to make a toast for the autonomy of Macedonia, the Bulgarian officers pulled their swords out and made it clear to him that their struggle is for full annexation of Macedonia to Bulgaria. Sandanski had no power to protest against it, so his tactical struggle continued until his murder, about 3 years later. After the Balkan wars, the Bulgarian government gave him amnesty for all of his illegal activities, but he knew he was still being followed. He knew that the Bulgarian authorities were aware and afraid of his Macedonian national-separatist ideals.

(Hristo Konstantinov's Biography of Yane Sandanski, Sofia, 1944, pg. 70-72. ; Јaне. Богатинов - "Спомени", бр.11 од в. "Доброволец", 1945 г. ; Ангел Динев, Илинденска епопеа, дел II, Скопје 1949., c. 548. ; Pavel Deliradev's Biography of Yane Sandanski, Sofia, 1946, pg. 41. ; Angel Dinev’s “Short biography of Yane Sandanski”, “Selected works of Angel Dinev”, Skopje, 1983, pg. 321-322. ; Pavel Deliradev, Razvitieto na federativnata ideya, Makedonska misal, Book 5-6, 1946, pp. 203-208.)

Todor Panitsa, again: During the war, the IMRO had a practical autonomy of the Pirin Macedonia, its completely own regime. Our goal was autonomy of the entire Macedonia, and then make it an independent state. That was the ideal of our Macedonian national hero Sandanski.

(Todor Panitsa interviewed by Elefterios Stavridis - Τα Παρασκηνια του ΚΚΕ, Athens, 1953, pg. 216.

Todor Aleksandrov called the “Sandanists” traitors to the Bulgarian nation, because “they’ve always claimed, and they still claim that Macedonia should become an independent state, that it’s a separate land and the Macedonians are a separate nation with its own multi-centennial history”. (Zoran Todorovski: "Everything for Macedonia - Monography of Todor Aleksandrov", Tsocho Bilyarski: Truth about the autonomy of Macedonia, see the letter here)

On the other hand, some Bulgarian historians have also confirmed that “’’’Sandanski's activities produced Macedonian nationalism’’’. (Стоян Г. Бояджиев: Истинският лик на Яне Сандански, София, 1994, с. 21.)

“Sandanski was trouble for Bulgaria, he and his followers inflamed the Macedonian population against Bulgaria and the Exarchate.” (Iliya Paskov, “Atanas Shopov’s Diary,” Sofia, 1995, pg. 113.) Bobi987 Ivanov (talk) 00:07, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I am really itching to remove that stuff from the talkpage, but it might actually serve a purpose as to how not to structure an argument on Wikipedia. Statements like "All sources confirm that." and "Let's look at the facts" are barely helping your cause. I will not even delve into the questionable sources that you so stubbornly stick to. And bare in mind that the photos of underlined text will simply never work s actual sources. --Laveol ^T 11:47, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

You haven't answer my question - Why is Yane Sandanski recognised as a national hero in Bulgaria? 79.126.191.39 (talk) 12:06, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

This is a question for a discussion forum, not Wikipedia. Please, make a difference. --StanProg (talk) 15:20, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

--Laveol T, can we see your facts, and the sources that don't confirm what we say? 79.126.243.30 (talk) 18:41, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Laveol, can we see your facts, and the sources that confirm the opposite of what we say? Can you prove that Sandanski fought for the Bulgarian nation, for greater Bulgarian state? 79.126.165.154 (talk) 21:04, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Some sources clarifying the ideas of Sandanski and his fellows:

• The IMARO activists saw the future autonomous Macedonia as a multinational polity, and did not pursue the self-determination of Macedonian Slavs as a separate ethnicity. Therefore, Macedonian was an umbrella term covering Bulgarians, Turks, Greeks, Vlachs, Albanians, Serbs, Jews, and so on. Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia, Historical Dictionaries of Europe, Dimitar Bechev, Scarecrow Press, 2009, ISBN 0810862956, Introduction.
• The slogans (promoted by IMARO) of a Balkan Federation and that of Macedonia for the Macedonians were understood in a supra-national way as a polity of the national elements of the region: according to the then used ethnic terminology these included Albanians, Bulgarians, Greeks, Turks, Vlachs, Serbs and so on. Entangled Histories of the Balkans - Volume Two, Roumen Daskalov, Diana Mishkova, BRILL, 2013, ISBN 9004261915, p. 503.
• Slavic Macedonian revolutionaries felt loyalty to Macedonia as a region or territory without claiming any specifically Macedonian ethnicity. The primary aim of this Macedonian regionalism was an multi-ethnic alliance against the Ottoman rule. Ethnologia Balkanica, Volumes 10–11, Association for Balkan Anthropology, Bŭlgarska akademiia na naukite, Universität München, Lit Verlag, Alexander Maxwell, 2006, p. 133.
• Although in the 1920s the left wing of IMRO routinely used the term Macedonian Bulgarians, by the early 1930s they embraced the view that Macedonian Slavs constituted a separate nation. (Sandanski died in 1915) Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia, Dimitar Bechev, Scarecrow Press, 2009, ISBN 0810862956, p. 135.
• "We are still in servitude to the old divisions", interview with PhD Zoran Todorovski, Director of the State Archive of the Republic of Macedonia, published on, 27. 06. 2005 in Tribune Magazine. Tribune: Part of the public and some from your fellow historians accuse you of promotining a collection about a man (Todor Alexandrov) who felt himself as Bulgarian. Are there some of our revolutionary activist who opposed him on that issue? Todorovski : Almost none. We are still in servitude to the old divisions of left and right. Ethnically, in a national sense, they were all with the same sentiments, with the same (Bulgarian) consciousness. Tribune: The journalist Victor Tsvetanoski has claimed to "Utrinski" newspaper: "Sandanski argued that it was necessary to work among the Macedonian people and to explain, they are a separate nation.Todorovski: Nowhere Sandanski supported such views. He had the same views and opinions as well as the rest of the Macedonian IMRO activists of the Left and the Right wing. He has considered himself a Bulgarian. There is a little documentation written from himself, others wrote more about him. However, in this bit, which is written by him, nowhere he mentioned Macedonian nation as a separate ethnic group, but that in Macedonia lived Bulgarians, Turks, Albanians, etc. 212.117.45.70 (talk) 09:54, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
• "According to the Macedonian historian and best expert in IMRO-issues, the Academician Ivan Katardzhiev, all left-wing Macedonian revolutionaries from the period until the early 1930s declared themselves as "Bulgarians" and he asserts that the political separatism of some Macedonian revolutionaties toward official Bulgarian policy was yet only political phenomenon without ethnic character. This will bring even Dimitar Vlahov on the session of the Politburo of the Macedonian communist party in 1948, when speaking of the existence of the Macedonian nation, to say that in 1932 (when left wing of IMRO issued for the first time the idea of separate Macedonian nation) a political mistake was made. Katardzhiev claims all this veterans members of IMRO (United) and Bulgarian communist party remained only at the level of political, not of national separatism. Thus, they practically continued to feel themselves as Bulgarians, i.e. they didn't developed clear national separatist position even in Communist Yugoslavia after 1944. Академик Катарџиев, Иван. Верувам во националниот имунитет на македонецот, интервjу за списание „Форум“, 22 jули 2000, броj 329. 212.117.45.70 (talk) 10:57, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

It's clear that here we do not talk about Sandanski's ethnicity. That's another subject. You anonymous 212.117.45.70 have just confirmed that Sandanski fought for an independent Macedonian state, and not for Bulgarian unification. Therefore, he was a Macedonian national separatist. Why is he recognized as a Bulgarian national hero? Chakmak111 (talk) 12:50, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Why is Yane Sandanski recognised as a national hero in Macedonia

An ethnic community has myth of origins and descent, a common history, elements of distinctive culture, a common territorial association, and sense of group solidarity. A nation is, by comparison, much more impersonal, abstract, and overtly political than an ethnic group. It is a cultural-political community that has become conscious of its coherence, unity, and particular interests. (Nation)

Stefan Kemilev, а lawyer from Bulgaria and opponent of Yane Sandanski, witnessed:

— "Yane had a theory that, it's not pleasant neither for the Macedonian population nor for Bulgaria itself, the Macedonian question to be treated in sense of Bulgarian national unification, and those who disagree with that theory have sold themselves to the Bulgarian government. He says, everyone in Macedonia, or outside, who propagates liberation and unification of the Bulgarians, should be death enemy to the IMRO, just like the Serbian and Greek agitations and bands. He claimed and disseminating the belief, among the masses, that they are an independent, distinctive people, that they have the right to be free fighting on their own and they mustn't rely on any of the alien forces, because those who'd come, wouldn't be liberators, but conquerors."" (Хриcтo Силянов: Освободителнитѣ борби на Македония, том II (изд. на Илинденската Орг., София, 1943), с. 498.)

His very close and loyal friend Todor Panitsa said:

85.30.104.252 (talk) 13:37, 27 October 2014 (UTC)