Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nabi Tajima

Nabi Tajima

Nabi Tajima (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Fails WP:BIO1E. Since as few as 10% of people over 110 are identified, it is not credible to say this is the 4th oldest person in the world. Legacypac (talk) 08:29, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

• Keep, not sure if WP:BIO1E even applies here, or if it was intended for articles like this one. But even with that, there are 4 notabilities in the article, not just one. MarkYabloko 10:21, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Lakun.patra (talk) 08:40, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. Lakun.patra (talk) 08:40, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

• Delete or merge to list of Japanese super-cents. EEng (talk) 09:16, 25 November 2015 (UTC) [Later clarification]: ... per WP:NOPAGE.
• Strong Keep She is one of slight survivors of born in the 19th century and one of oldest Japanese ever. She is still alive, there are possibility that become world's oldest person or oldest Japanese person ever in the near future. 4th oldest person out of 7.2 billion people is not notable? I don't think.--Inception2010 (talk) 10:07, 25 November 2015 (UTC)This editor has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Keep Japan's koseki family registry system is very thorough and has been for a long, long time. So even if the nominator's bold assertion that there could be another 30-40 undocumented people in the world that are older than her is true, we can still be quite certain that she is the oldest person in Japan. That alone is surely notable and has been addressed in multiple sources within the article. Because you need Koseki documents to do anything related to government services in the country, anybody older than her in Japan would have to have been living in a cave for the past 110+ years. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 13:37, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Actually it is pretty bad, there were over 200,000 deaths not reported for people listed as over 100, so that people could keep collecting the pensions of their parents. More than 230,000 Japanese people listed as 100 years old cannot be located and many may have died decades ago. Japan is listed as having the highest longevity, but this puts the number in doubt. In the US it is a crime to not report a death. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 15:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

What you say is correct, but it does not change the fact that it is very thorough in regards to recording when people were born, which is the important part in the context of this discussion. By the way, the last paragraph of your source says that it does not put the longevity figures in doubt. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 02:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• Keep The claim of notability is remarkably clear. Sure, somebody may have run the 100m faster than Usain Bolt, and someone may have conceived of the Theory of Relativity before Albert Einstein, but being documented and covered in reliable and verifiable sources is what Wikipedia is all about; Woulda, coulda, mighta arguments about who the "real" oldest person may be are just irrelevant ponderings. The breadth and scope of the article provide appropriately significant coverage of the individual and the existence of five parallel articles in our partner projects in French, Dutch, Japanese, Russian and Finnish all demonstrate the international recognition she has received. What exactly is the BIO1E that she is famous for? When did that event occur? Alansohn (talk) 14:21, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
• Keep I am not really sure what the deletion rational is, something like There are known knowns. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:09, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Given the long history of Japan and the country's long history of turning out old people, how can these claims be proven? "Tajima is the 5th oldest Japanese person ever, the 4th oldest Japanese woman ever and the longest lived person ever in Kyushu." Bolt's speed record is different - everyone is clear that this is for running in a modern competition. We don't say he is the fastest person ever. All you can say about this oldest person is that she is the oldest in Japan that has good records. Legacypac (talk) 18:20, 25 November 2015 (UTC) ""

We don't say he is the "fastest person ever"? Would you like to check the second sentence of the lead? AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 21:33, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

You're right, the Usain Bolt article does say that. And I've tagged it since I don't see what in the article supports that claim, nor do I see what possible source ever could. It's an absurd statement, just as "oldest person in country X ever" is absurd. EEng (talk) 22:38, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

EEng and company fail to understand the essence of the issue. We are not here to prove truth. We write articles and make assertions in them based on descriptions in reliable and verifiable sources. The Guardian describes Bolt being "regarded as the fastest person ever", one of thousands of sources with similar characterizations available to source the statement. No one has run every individual on Earth against Bolt, and the word "ever" covers a very long period of time, with billions of the dearly departed who have never raced against the "fastest person ever". Bolt's achievements are based on the standards of the records and data available. So to for Tajima and the other individuals described as being among the world's oldest. We can safely disregard the chirping that there might be other people older (or faster or taller or whatever) than those cited as such in Wikipedia articles based on reliable and verifiable sources. It is the disregard for these reliably sourced characterizations that is absurd and in direct conflict with bedrock Wikipedia policy. Alansohn (talk) 03:46, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

When The Guardian says he's the "fastest person ever", they know their readers will understand that to mean the fastest known person ever. Newspapers are allowed to take imprecise shortcuts like that. We're not. EEng (talk) 04:39, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Ah, it's your job to decide what's the truth, and your decision is final. You've twisted causality here; That's not how Wikipedia works. We use material from reliable and verifiable sources, whether it be for Usain Bolt or Nabi Tajima or our other five million articles. Just as readers know what it means when Bolt is described as "fastest person ever", we all know what it means when someone is described as "oldest"; It's based on the data and records available as described in reliable and verifiable sources. Welcome to Wikipedia. Alansohn (talk) 05:01, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

While we follow sources for the facts/assertions they report, we don't necessarily follow them in their form of expression. Thus while a newspaper might loosely say "X is the oldest person in Japan", knowing (or hoping) that readers will understand the imprecision in that statement, Wikipedia should be precise i.e should say, "X is reportedly the oldest person in Japan" or "X is the oldest known person in Japan". Welcome to Wikipedia. EEng (talk) 05:57, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

So we're agreeing. Assertions are based on characterizations in reliable and verifiable sources. If you want to tweak the wording for Nabi Tajima or for Usain Bolt, there's room for greater accuracy. I'm just glad that you're acknowledging that the argument that the person may not in fact be "oldest" is no more relevant than the claim that Bolt is not "fastest". I'm glad that we can now work together with that common understanding that such arguments for deletion as the ones used here are worthless. Alansohn (talk) 06:13, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't think the nominator chose the strongest of the arguments available for deletion/merging. For me it's NOPAGE. EEng (talk) 07:01, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

that other language Wikipedia choose to copy this is not an argument for keeping. That she might become the oldest person in the future is pure speculation. She is much more likely to die. Legacypac (talk) 07:24, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Legacypac, that she has been recognized in reliable and verifiable sources as the "the oldest living person in Japan and the world's 4th oldest living person" is entirely accurate and constitutes a rather clear and strong claim of notability. Let's keep the article on that basis. Alansohn (talk) 14:56, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

"Reportedly" is a weasel word to avoid, it builds in skepticism, like it is a rumor. Using "verified" and "recorded" is proper. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:37, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• Strong keep as various reliable sources indicate, she is a verified recordholder. We report what the sources say, and there have been plenty of coverage on her, thus making her notable. Vivexdino (talk) 17:23, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
• Keep. Since she is still alive, I think that WP:NOPAGE considerations could be dealt with after she has died and the totality of the coverage is known. Although this is somewhat of a WP:CRYSTALBALL argument, the available sources appear to satisfy the requirements of WP:N, which means that it can be kept for the time being. Canadian Paul 18:31, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

• Keep Legacypac and others are on a crusade to delete all longevity-related articles due to warped logic that they are "only known for longevity". Well, Babe Ruth is only known for playing baseball, that's WP:BLPE, we better delete all sports players articles because they focus on sports! That's the kind of logic you're using. It's warped logic. If being 110+ wasn't notable, the oldest living person's death wouldn't be in the news as often. Koto Okubo was an exception - she was a very withdrawn woman who preferred to remain anonymous, and we knew very little of her. And I've noticed the nominator closing an AfD as Delete - that flat-out breaks the rules. You are not the one who decides what is notable and what is not. Nabi Tajima, being the oldest person in Japan, the oldest person ever from Kagoshima Prefecture (excluding Izumi and Hongo), the fourth-oldest living person, and one of the last four people born in the 19th century, is quite clearly notable. --158.222.69.9 (talk) 21:37, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

I closed an AfD before any substative involvement with longevity related articles. The Close survived a deletion review, and the deletion was based on Policy. Now that I read up on this topic I've foud a cleanup is needed. This 'oldest person here or there' stuff does not confer notability. Even advocates of tracking this supposed competition to live the longest admit that they don't have a good idea who all the contestants are. For example, there are some really old people in China but I don't see them on these lists very often, certianly not to the extent you would expect given the proportion of the population China represents. The general absence of Chinese people makes the whole exercise of picking the oldest person in the world highly suspect. Legacypac (talk) 22:03, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Are you EEng's clone? Firstly, "longevity does not confer notability" is YOUR OPINION. Outside sources tend to disagree. Secondly, there is no "competition", nor is anyone suggesting there is. Thirdly, if you knew anything about the subject, you would know that China has very poor levels of documentation (few people have birth certificates, etc), hence it's very difficult for Chinese longevity claimants' ages to be proven. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 09:21, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

"Are you EEng's clone?" I certainly hope he isn't, for his sake. But great minds do think alike, of course. EEng (talk) 02:48, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Hardly, I know a lot about China and existence or lack of documentation, which is why I point out that claims like "oldest person in Asia" or "4th oldest in the world" are most likely false and should not be made. I don't nominate or vote against notable people with more then trivial or routine coverage for something other then getting old. Legacypac (talk) 12:52, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, no one is saying, definitively, that any given person is the Nth oldest person in the world, only that they're the oldest KNOWN AND VERIFIED person in the world. Secondly, Wikipedia is supposed to be based on outside sources, not the editor's opinions. If a reliable outside source ranks someone as the 4th oldest (verified) person, then there's no reason why Wikipedia shouldn't either. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 17:00, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

• Merge per WP:WHYN (see footnote 1). If a larger article provides better context and maintainability, it would be sensible to merge. Wikipedia is not limited by space, but it is limited by editing resources. The sources only cover the subject in the context of her old age (not even how she got to that age). Esquivalience ^t 16:59, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
• Keep Agree with all the keep arguments above. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 09:21, 29 November 2015 (UTC) This editor has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Weak leaning towards delete, but would prefer/support merge I spent a bit of time assessing (or at least trying to as I don't read Japanese well and am limited to reading the kanji) the sources that are in the stub. The NHK source doesn't work for me, not sure if that is a location related problem or if the link is dead. The IB Times source only has her as a passing mention in a table among other similarly aged ladies. The PDF source mentions her only in the wider context of Senior's day, so yet again another passing mention. The Nankainn source has slightly more detail going on to talk about her receiving a gift on Senior's day and a small blurb about her offspring. I'll reserve my opinion on the Guiness book of records entry as I'm not familiar with how Guiness as a source is assessed. She certainly does not satisfy, in my eyes, the significant coverage requirement, but the fact that she appeared in a number of publications does indicate there is a sufficient level of notability that information about Nabi-san should included somewhere but not as a standalone article. Blackmane (talk) 12:14, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
• Merge and Redirect - WP:NOPAGE applies here. What else can be said about her other than she's old (no disrespect intended at all, but, honestly, that's all she's notable for)? Assuming, for a minute, that notability isn't an issue, how does it better the encyclopedia to have a standalone article doomed to be stub for eternity when we can integrate the information into a more comprehensive article?--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 12:33, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

The article isn't "doomed to be a stub for eternity"... she is still living, she could go on to become the world's oldest person, Japan's oldest ever person, etc. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 16:05, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Even if she becomes the world's oldest person, all that will mean is shifting her from one list to another, because NOPAGE will still apply (unless in the meantime she wins the Boston Marathon or a Nobel Prize, or stabs one of her caretakers or does something else worth knowing). EEng (talk) 19:26, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Truly amazing how people that existed for over 100 years doing nothing worthy of being included in an encyclopedia (or the rest home newsletter) are all of a sudden considered notable by some editors while they languish in a care home, were most people are nearly totally forgotten. Apparently if someone(s) in another carehome on the other side of the world dies it makes this other person super-notable. Legacypac (talk) 21:41, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

EEng, I think you'll find that the result of a number of recent AfD's for world's oldest person biographies show that consensus is in favour of such people having standalone articles in many cases. Legacypac, don't be so ridiculous. Clearly, the world's oldest person is notable for outliving BILLIONS OF PEOPLE, not just one person. Stop suggesting otherwise. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 22:47, 2 December 2015 (UTC)This editor has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware of you being in charge of my suggestions. I'll consult you in advance next time. "Consensus is in favour of such people having standalone articles in many cases" -- yeah, if 13 keeps out of the 63 AfDs in recent months counts as "many". But hey -- who's keeping score, right? The NOPAGE argument is a powerful one, as almost all these people have led lives of exemplary dullness. EEng (talk) 23:27, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

WORLD'S OLDEST PERSON biographies. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 00:57, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm talking about WOP bios. Can I be in charge of my own suggestions now? EEng (talk) 01:25, 3 December 2015 (UTC) EEng (talk) 01:25, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I was originally talking about people who were the world's oldest person. And no, I'll tell you how to think ;) -- Ollie231213 (talk) 23:13, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I see what you mean now -- the top-of-the-heap oldest oldest. I suspect that's because those discussions centered on notability rather than NOPAGE, and/or there tends to be more known/published about the top-of-the-heapers. It's certainly not simply because the subjects had that status, since simple longevity, even at the "true WOP" level, isn't a notability get-out-of-jail-free card. EEng (talk) 05:08, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Which Billions of people? Why mention that Person A outlived Person B at all then? According to people that track the keep breathing race they are only tracking maybe 10% of the super old. So claiming this women is the 4th oldest in the world is inaccurate - more likely, she is somewhere around 30-40th oldest. Legacypac (talk) 22:54, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

We aren't supposed to do original research. You might realize that "verified" and "recorded" are part of the concept. Before our sun exploded to make the current solar system from the detritus, there may have been billions of people that lived over the year 200. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:33, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

The billions of people that live on Earth, obviously. That's why being the world's oldest is notable. Someone attains the distinction after someone else passes away, hence why you mention it. Do I really have to spell this out? -- Ollie231213 (talk) 00:57, 3 December 2015 (UTC

• Keep. per other users.--153.151.83.197 (talk) 05:02, 30 November 2015 (UTC) This editor has made few or no other edits outside this topic.)
• Delete then redirect There is nothing here worth keeping. Fails Wikipedia rules about significant coverage. Fails Wikipedia's General Notability Guidelines. The only significant details are easily included on a list. That's the result counseled by WP:NOPAGE in cases like this. David in DC (talk) 17:41, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
• Keep per Alansohn and Canadian Paul. clpo13_(talk) 22:49, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Precedent is that these are all getting merged. Legacypac (talk) 02:16, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, clpo13_(talk) 07:00, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

• Keep - The claim of notability is clear. The argument that only a percentage of people over 100 have been identified is moot as the article clearly states "verified living person." Also, if this is deleted, it will set prescent to delete the rest of stand alone articles links from here.--CNMall41 (talk) 07:35, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
• Obvious Keep Oldest living person in Japan as well as one of only four verified living people left from the 19th century. The whole reason for nominating this article for deletion seems bogus. 930310 (talk) 22:17, 5 December 2015 (UTC) This editor has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

You haven't answered the NOPAGE argument. The entirety of what the article says about her is:

Nabi Tajima (born 4 August 1900) is a Japanese supercentenarian who is, at the age of 115 years, 124 days, the oldest verified living person in Japan. Tajima was born in Araki, an area of what was then Wan Village, in the westernmost part of Kikaijima Island, and currently resides in Kikai. As of September 2011, she had 9 children (7 sons and 2 daughters), 28 grandchildren, 56 great-grandchildren and 35 great-great-grandchildren. As of September 2015, she had over 140 descendants.

EEng (talk) 04:37, 6 December 2015 (UTC)