Talk:Portobuffolé

Name

Is the name Portobuffolè or Portobuffolé? The official site uses the former name ([1]), and so does the Italian Wikipedia. However, Dizionario d'ortografia e di pronunzia ([2]) uses the latter name, but it has much less Google hits. Which name is the correct one? Peter238 (talk) 14:55, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

I think I can help you with that: the correct spelling is with "é" (acute), but Italians aren't taught to use correctly accents (like French instead) so it's likely that the official site just has got a spelling mistake, just know that most of us use an apostrophe or some strange "scribbles" instead of the accent when they write in Italian... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.20.53.39 (talk) 15:09, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

I have to agree with that: é with acute, though part of the orthography, is seldom used by Italians, even in common words such as perché ("because" or "why"), often replaced by (wrong) perchè, so I think in this case we'd better rely on the dictionary. イヴァンスクルージ九十八 _{（トーク）} 15:16, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

correct pronunciation is with è. I can check with the local townhall, and let you know which one is the official written name. --Helichrysum Italicum (talk) 21:52, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

@Helichrysum Italicum, why do you say that "è" is the correct pronounciation? We are talking about the same topic here, and it is not clear what official sources say, considering that they are inconsistent (ovvero incoerenti). Thanks ;)--Lucas (talk) 12:02, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98, "é" is not seldom used, there are bright examples like "perché", "affinché", "sé", "né", and so further. Due to the pc's keyboard structure, "perchè" is often wrongly written even by Italian people, but it is still a mistake. --Lucas (talk) 12:02, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I am saying that correct pronunciation and correct written form are two distinct matters. I can guarantee that the correct pronunciation of the town name involves using an Open-mid front unrounded vowel as the last vowel. It's a letter that, according to italian grammar, should be written "è". The thing is, given the fact that most italian nowadays are not trained in the formal use of accents, many people write that vowel wrongly, using "é". This may be the reason why we find so many contradictions even in the documents of the town council itself! --Helichrysum Italicum (talk) 14:07, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

@Lucas:: that's what I was trying to say; I didn't mean to justify the mistake, but the exact opposite: it should really be avoided, so if a dictionary reports the right spelling is with é, that's the one everyone should use. イヴァンスクルージ九十八 _{（トーク）} 14:18, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

there is an element I forgot to mention...and that is the local accent. So...when I was saying "correct pronunciation", I meant the pronunciation in the area, according to local accent. The difference between the former name and the local accent may be the source of the change in the name reflected on the official website. After all, language is an everchanging structure...so it is reasonable to assume that the pronunciation changed in the span of dozens of years...and that the "é" became deprecated. hence the low number of hits on google. Should we adhere to wikipedia principle of the "most recognizable form", we should keep the "è" in the title. A note could easily be added, explaining the reason for the decision. --Helichrysum Italicum (talk) 16:37, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

As I wrote in the Italian discussion, we shouldn't rely on the local use, but on the official name. I think we could ask the comune to publish an official statement on the website (really: it is a very little town). --Lucas (talk) 07:44, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 19 December 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:04, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Portobuffolè → Portobuffolé – I would've thought this would be sufficiently uncontroversial to do it myself in all Wikis (as already it was in en.wikipedia) by copying each language content in the new created page and replacing the old page with a redirect... Unfortunately, one (1) single Dutch admin has decided that I'm a vandal who deserved to be globally blocked and substituted all of my edits again and even the pages which already had the correct spelling. Just because (sarcasm) I didn't provided sources demonstrating that the most correct spelling is "Portobuffolé" with acute accent... The following sources, I mean: the 2 most important Italian dictionaries as orthographic and pronunciation guides also for proper nouns (DOP - Dizionario d'ortografia e di pronunzia & DiPI Online - Dizionario di Pronuncia Italiana) and the main on-line Italian encyclopedia (Sapere.it); the famous Treccani, unluckily, doesn't show the accent in the related voice, but in other pages such as this uses the acute accent only. The official web page of the comune uses both grave and acute accents. I think that both spellings could be used, but "Portobuffolé" is clearly the most correct one, "Portobuffolè" should exist as redirect in all other Wikis. This isn't a request for English Wiki but an Interwiki request. 151.20.13.138 (talk) 01:09, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• You're blocked on English Wikipedia too? You were blocked for just this one page move across many Wikipedias? What's your blocked User ID and what's the difference between these two accents - is it related to Veneto dialect? In ictu oculi (talk) 09:48, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Lots of questions! Yes, I don't have a static IP so after some time it changes, but the IPs I used when I made the changes are all blocked. I was blocked for nothing else than trying to correct the accent over that single name, and from the very beginning I've always been providing the first 2 sources above in the edit summary. You can understand how frustrated I felt. I've already stopped trying moving the pages manually yesterday before starting this request, that admin and his/her friends made a systematic ereasing so I've understood it was the wrong way to deal with it. I'm asking here, following Wikipedian rules, to move the page for all Wikis because of the reasons I've explained above. The Italian name is "Portobuffolé", as indicated in pronunciation and orthography manuals, "Portobuffolè" is a wrong variant but actually used due to the fact that in Italian accents are always grave except for final "E"s where it may be acute; the Venetian name is "Portobufołè" with grave accent, but it's a different spelling too and it's the dialectal name, not the Italian one. If it'll be decided in the end that the page must keep the wrong accents, I'll accept that and won't do anything to change it. I hope I've answered exhaustively to all of your questions, if you have others please ask. 151.20.13.138 (talk) 13:09, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support okay, seems reasonable. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:45, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Only. (NB I followed IIO here for anybody watching IIO or me!). I notice that all the Wikis including the Italian wiki (where there is a similar discussion) there's also hotel and tourist guides, even the official Facebook page for Borgo di Portobuffolè, Google maps, a search of Google images showed all as Portobuffolè. I would argue that WP:COMMONNAME must apply irrespective of any information that 151 has brought to the table. The reason this is a comment only is that I have enough trouble with English, without thinking about Italian. --Richhoncho (talk) 10:49, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Reply to Richhoncho & AjaxSmack. Shouldn't Wiki report the most correct form? An erroneous spelling is used just because more common? Also "Nicolò Macchiavelli" is more common than "Niccolò Machiavelli", but the correct name is used in en.wikipedia... Besides, as I said the point is that letter E is the only vowel using also acute accent in Italian, all others use only the grave accent, that's why "Portobuffolè" is such a common error. And I think that almost all Italian names ending with an accented E are more commonly found with grave accent, even if the only correct spelling has the acute accent. An explicit example? Right in the official Portobuffolé page you can read "perchè", a wrong spelling of "perché", reflecting also a typical Northern pronunciation of the word meaning "why/because". That's the reliability of the official page. You can vote and choose to keep the current form, but you have to know that you're suggesting to readers a wrong spelling, not supported by any dictionary or encyclopedia, and Wiki-pedia should be an encyclo-pedia, not a pot collecting everything found on the Internet, maybe written by uneducated people, without verifying its correctness. 151.20.13.138 (talk) 11:33, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
    • Generally, I agree with you but in this case it is not English Wikipedia's job to prescribe usage in another language when it is not reflected in sources. In this discussion at the Italian article's talk page, it seems that Italian Wikipedia users cannot agree either. If you had sources stating something to the effect of "the grave accent is wrong even if common", I would not oppose a move (the DOP - Dizionario d'ortografia e di pronunzia you cite gives both spellings and none of the other sources proscribe the è). —  AjaxSmack  03:47, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
      • I'll answer in three points for a better reply. About Italian Wiki, it's unluckily known for being one step below English Wiki, both for the exhaustivity of contents and for, I have to admit, sysops' behaviour towards contributors; this talk could be a chance to fix one of the many mistakes which couldn't find a solution in there. About the DOP, the very page you linked gives only the correct spelling, Portobuffolé, and its conventional phonetic transcription for Italian, you can check it yourself. About the other sources, they don't even proscribe the ê spelling, the spelling "Porto Buffolé", etc...English dictionaries don't proscribe the spelling "luv" for "love" either, this doesn't mean it's as correct as it, dictionaries just give correct spellings so there's no need to proscribe uncorrect spellings, isn't it? I think I'm not being unreasonable in answering like this. 151.20.13.138 (talk) 10:15, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
        • First(ly), I won't argue your point about Italian Wikipedia but it's telling that native speakers of the language in question dispute the spelling. Second(ly), sorry that I linked the wrong dictionary. The è is a parenthetical here. Finally, the love vs. luv case is not a good analogy. It would only be if luv was/were far more common in reliable sources but dictionaries were using love. —  AjaxSmack  01:49, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
          • Ok, I've understood your point(s). What I'm saying is just that even if "Portobuffolè" should be accepted it'd be anyhow secondary, the spelling that should be used as main and as page title is the not uncommon "Portobuffolé", because in 3 sources out of 4 is the only one given and in the last one is between parenthesis as a lot of other less correct spellings of words ending with accented E in DiPI ([3]). 151.20.13.138 (talk) 10:22, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. Although the acute accent may be technically correct, the grave accent is far more commonly used in most sources including official ones (e.g. the comune, the province and the region and as well as here). —  AjaxSmack  01:40, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support. I agree with the IP's thesis because being Italian I well know that this is the state of things about accents. Bolgitalianissimano (talk) 17:28, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comments: Sometimes, sadly, the Wikipedia criteria is verifiability, not truth and the essay Wikipedia:Wikipedia is wrong may help. The article title is Portobuffolè with the alternate as Portobuffolé (that redirects back to the first) with a "note". The Notes section states "Locally, Portobufolè". I do not know the Italian language but the article could use more references (hint-hint). There is some good news in that although AjaxSmack gives valid reasoning in opposition, as well as Richhoncho in the Comment Only. I am also only making comments but with three in support a closing admin could swing either way. The better news is that the issue appears to be only technical, and the difference is provided for in the lead, so feel free to expand the article as I have seen some references above that might be included. Otr500 (talk) 03:09, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

No consensus, crosswiki moving pages (by sysops) nevertheless

Can someone please explain why and how so many sysops in such little time all deceided to move the article on they're respective wiki's (if Lucas or an ip starting with 151 didn't already), when clearly no community consensus has been reached, neither on enwiki or on any other wiki (including itwiki)? EvilFreD (talk) 08:42, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

EvilFreD, I want to clarify your doubts.

The correct spelling is Portobuffolé. It's not me saying it, it's all the pronunciation and ortography guides I've consulted and brought as sources. Here they are: DOP (the most important pronunciation/ortography dictionary of Italian language), DiPI (another big shot, even more complete), Sapere.it (the main on-line Italian encyclopedia), Treccani (the most authoritative Italian encyclopedia). They all say that the correct spelling is "Portobuffolé", with acute accent. Just one puts in parentheses the grave accent as alternative spelling, and it does the same with all Italian proper names.

You ask why admins have moved the pages also in other Wikis. Let me make you an example: "IJssel". If another language Wiki had the article "Ijssel" and repeats "Ijssel" in all the article, wouldn't you want to correct it? And, since "IJssel" IS the correct spelling, do you think you need to ask for a consensus in each single language Wiki (there are 33 in total) for such an evident truth, accepted both in the main Wiki (en.wikipedia) and in your own language Wiki? I don't think so. One more thing: I have no idea why in Dutch you write "IJ" with both capital letters, it looks strange to me, but it's not just because I think you're wrong since I don't see any sense in writing the first 2 letters in upcase that I dare to claim to know things better than you, mother-language. The same for you (plural): you don't know anything about Italian accents, and anything about the ignorance of the medium Italian about accents orthography and pronunciation, so please let "us" do this work about our language. And overall trust the authority of the pronunciation/ortography guides which were brought as sources.

Portobuffolé is just the correct spelling, that's all. There's no point in keeping on with a war to change it to an uncorrect, or at least less correct, spelling. And all this started just because a pair of Dutch admins (not you, luckily) refused to admit that the name used on nl.wikipedia was wrong and started renaming not just it but also ALL other Wikis articles. The result is that now, following rules, it's been established both here in the main Wiki and even in the Italian Wiki (Portobuffolé is an Italian town) to use "that" spelling, not arbitrarily, but after verifying it's the correct one. Please, don't restart all over again... 151.20.83.140 (talk) 17:48, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

• This IP is just redirecting the pages to the new title (ignoring the history), without a clearly consensus. I don't know why too why some sysops are moving the pages, like this one. We don't have consensus even on Italian wiki, where they should know better then us. No consensus, no move. We have a conflict with these sources, probably very difficult to reach a consensus. - Editeur ^? 18:01, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Maybe the answer to your doubts is that, simply, Portobuffolé "IS" the right spelling (as proven by sources). And that, since it's the correct spelling (as proven by sources), there's no need to ask for a consensus on every each single Wiki. We already agree on the international Wiki (en.wikipedia) and on the town language Wiki (it.wikipedia). If there're no personal issues involved, then it's clear that moving the page from the uncorrect to the correct spelling (as proven by sources) is the most natural thing to do. If there're no personal issues involved so that people are free to think clearly, obviously: why on Earth a Portuguese admin would care so much about a small Italian town spelling? 151.20.22.229 (talk) 19:26, 16 January 2016 (UTC)