Talk:Cenk Uygur

Significant Information?

Is the note about Cenk being a Steelers fan really necessary to be included in the article? I would understand if it affected his show, but it really doesn't. I've watched his show and he only talks about football rarely, let alone his favorite team.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cremnlin (talk • contribs) 02:27, September 17, 2009

Semi-protected edit request on 1 November 2015

Change "Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper" to "former Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper"; he lost the most recent election on Oct. 21st. 67.71.82.61 (talk) 18:14, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Not done for now: Harper is still incumbent. Sam Sailor ^Talk! 09:38, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Semi-protected edit request on 12 February 2016

The article has some outdated information. The Young Turks Network has amassed more than 5,000,000 subscribers. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc4M35Sey5s

AntonioE1778 (talk) 16:18, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Done EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:02, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

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Genocide denial

Why is this page in the category "Armenian Genocide deniers" when it doesn't mention the genocide even once? If Cenk Uygur is a noted Genocide denier, then evidence should be provided, and if he isn't, then he shouldn't be listed as one. --Stephen C Wells (talk) 01:25, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

I did a bit of research, and I have found that he did express doubt over the Genocide back in the 90s. However, though I can't find any evidence that he has outright repudiated his statements, it does seem that he no longer holds that view, based on his acknowledgement of the Genocide on his show and in this opinion piece he wrote on Huffington Post. As well, I found his college, Ana Kasparian, responding to this letter to the editor of Armenian Weekly in which she defends him and the show, and claims that Uygur no longer denies the Genocide. (For the record, the editor of Armenian Weekly also defended Uygur.)

However, as I said, I cannot find an outright repudiation or apology for those earlier statements by Uygur himself. --Stephen C Wells (talk) 22:42, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

I've removed the material. The sources were either of very poor quality or else were primary sources, and the whole thing read like original research. WP:BLP is very strict about the use of primary sources: "Exercise extreme caution in using primary sources. ... Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source, subject to the restrictions of this policy, no original research, and the other sourcing policies." If we can find a good quality secondary source that deals specifically with his views on the Armenian genocide (e.g. it is the main topic of an article from a reliable source), then it might be appropriate to include it. I'd argue, however, that this deserves no more than a sentence at most, to avoid giving undue weight to what is after all not exactly a defining biographical detail - Uygur is certainly not known because of his views on the Armenian genocide. Cmeiqnj (talk) 19:55, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Wonderful, now we're not just in denial about Uygur's well-documented denial but we're whitewashing his whitewashing. Ah, Wikipedia. Same old, same old. - Glynth (talk) 09:03, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

It's not a question of whitewashing, or censorship. It's a question of what should be included in the article if we wish to provide the reader with a fair representation of the subject. Wikipedia doesn't get to decide which aspects of a topic are important. We can only follow what's written about the subject in reliable secondary sources. We can only repeat what's already been written. If the kind of coverage that we would like to exist does not exist, then too bad, but it is not our place to invent that coverage. If we don't abide by these constraints then individual editors will inevitably try to use every article as a soapbox for their own views on the subject. And the rules are particularly strict for articles about living people - rightly so. To return to the topic at hand, I simply don't see any coverage in reliable sources dealing with Uygur's views on the Armenian genocide. For us to include it, then, would be a gross misrepresentation of the secondary literature. It's not Wikipedia's fault if the coverage you want to exist does not exist. Cmeiqnj (talk) 16:59, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Salon, which published Uygur's letter to the editor, is a reliable secondary source. Other RS abound on the internet.

Would you take this view--that the content should be removed--if Uygur denied the Nazi Holocaust?TummyTurtle (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

The fact that the letter was published by Salon does not make it a secondary source, at least not when we're using it to make claims about Uygur himself. See WP:PRIMARY for guidance. The point is, if we're going to include a claim about what Uyugr's opinions are, then we can't rely primarily on material written by Uygur himself, because that would be "analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources", i.e. original research, which is, and always has been, a big no no on Wikipedia. As for your claim that "Other RS abound on the internet", I don't see them. Where are they? All I see in the article at present is a couple of dead links, an intemperate facebook comment from the Mayor of Glendale, and then this, which is presented as if it were a dispassionate news report but reads like advocacy. Certainly it is not a neutral source. And in the absence of any response from Uygur being reported anywhere, and absent other, more independent coverage of the event from elsewhere, it would be wrong to include this source because it gives, at best, a distorted view of the facts. Including it would give undue weight to an opinion that does not appear to have received any coverage at all in good independent sources. See also WP:V#Exceptional claims require exceptional sources, which is policy. In the absence of any evidence of the existence of such exceptional sources, I'm removing the material again. By the way, I realize it may be annoying that I keep citing all these policy pages, but they exist for a reason - to keep the encyclopedia functioning as a reliable source of information for our readers, and not as a battlefield, and in the case of living people, to prevent us making defamatory claims that are not backed up by serious, bulletproof evidence. Cmeiqnj (talk) 10:29, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

We're supposed to construe rules according to their purpose; we're not supposed to apply them mechanistically. (See WP:IAR) The purpose of the BLP rules is to avoid publishing defamatory or inaccurate content. In this case, there is no question that Uygur denied the genocide, so removing that stuff from the article only serves to censor information.

In any case, I've added two more secondary sources in an effort to placate you: An article from Glendale News-Press noting Cenk's denial (and the Armenian protests against him); and a press release condemning Uygur's denial from the Armenian National Committee of America. TummyTurtle (talk) 16:22, 3 April 2016 (UTC) See also this The Daily Caller article criticizing Uygur's denialism (from 2014). TummyTurtle (talk) 16:42, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for providing more evidence. I'd say the Glendale News-Press piece is the closest thing we've got so far to a good independent source. But it is not primarily about Uygur and only mentions him briefly at the end - hardly an adequate basis on which to make a biographical claim. I've opened up a discussion at this noticeboard, requesting outside comment: Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Cenk Uygur. I will also remove the material again, pending the outcome of the discussion, per WP:ONUS. Note that IAR is basically a motivational dictum designed to free editors from unnecessary anxiety about red tape; it is not a trump card to be played in a content dispute. Cmeiqnj (talk) 22:15, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Reading this it is clear that there is some confusion over whether Cenk's denial. Here is a scanned copy of his initial denial of the Armenian Genocide (as he wrote in The Daily Pennsylvanian). I hope this at least clears up one aspect of this issue: http://dparchives.library.upenn.edu/cgi-bin/pennsylvania?a=d&d=tdp19911122-01.2.24. Not sure how to sign this, since I'm not a user, but my IP address is in the next section.

I'm afraid I cannot ignore the level of edit warring any longer, so I'm fully protecting the page for two weeks or until this dispute is resolved. When content is removed from an article, it's good practice to let a discussion take its course and allow consensus to be established before re-inserting the same or similar content, so as to avoid edit warring. This is even more true when an editor has in good faith raised WP:BLP policy related concerns – see WP:GRAPEVINE. I don't consider the content to be a blatant violation of BLP policy, though I do understand why concerns have been raised over the language used and use of sources, so I'm going to insist that all genocide related content stays out of the article until a consensus is reached on whether and how such material is included. I will review the protection as the discussion here and at WP:BLPN progresses. CT Cooper · talk 20:22, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 April 2016

I have a link to Cenk's denial of the Armenian Genocide which I think would be helpful to all parties. http://dparchives.library.upenn.edu/cgi-bin/pennsylvania?a=d&d=tdp19911122-01.2.24 73.163.74.223 (talk) 17:44, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

There is a discussion about this ongoing. See above. Cmeiqnj (talk) 18:07, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 4 April 2016

http://dparchives.library.upenn.edu/cgi-bin/pennsylvania?a=d&d=tdp19911122-01.2.24 This is the actual link to the paper Cenk wrote for, denying the Armenian Genocide.

71.29.238.146 (talk) 20:59, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for providing the link, though you have already done so in the section above this one. I'm answering this request without action as all genocide related content is staying out of the article until a consensus on the issue is reached as per my comment at #Genocide denial. CT Cooper · talk 21:30, 4 April 2016 (UTC)