Talk:White South Africans

Requested move 9 January 2017

• White South African → White South Africans – Since it is a group of people the title should be plural, not singular. AquilaXIII (talk) 04:57, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, per the precedent set by such articles as Afrikaners and White Namibians. --Katangais (talk) 21:31, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

• Support - Parity of nomenclature in keeping with consensus over the plural term use for diasporic ethnic groups residing in/citizens of another country (rfcid=67A353C). This has been applied to literally hundreds of other articles for multiple regions across the globe since the RfC simply as a matter of WP:COMMONSENSE. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:48, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Income

Average annual household income by population group of the household head.[57][58]

The source of this information isn't included in the citations. I went looking for the information on http://www.statssa.gov.za and couldn't find it. I'm not sure how the head of the average white household earns R 444 446 a year? I can see some families earning that, but not the average head of the family.

GuardianKZN (talk) 17:06, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

It's on page 14 of the very first reference cited: Living Conditions Survey 2014/15: Table 3.3: Average annual household income by population group of the household head (as stated). Please check sources carefully. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:06, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

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Requested move 5 December 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Paintspot: in future please let the process play out fully rather than making a request at RM/TR while the discussion is underway. This is the proper process and also has the best chance in reducing errors, as exemplified in this case where the talk page was left behind. Jenks24 (talk) 10:40, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

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White South African → White South Africans – Per reasons above. (It wasn't properly requested.) The plural form is used for groups of people. Dash9Z (talk) 07:54, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Strongly support per consistent style of all other people group pages. This barely even needs discussion. Paintspot Infez (talk) 16:59, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:09, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Talk page appears to be inconsistent with the article page. I would recommend an admin move this talk page to Talk:White South Africans to reflect the new article name. --Katangais (talk) 07:27, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Middle Easterns as whites

Hi User:2601:84:4502:61ea:456f:e528:dd7:cf11, please note, the source you cited [1] states that Lebanese people were classified as 'White' during Apartheid. It cannot be extrapolated that it then applies in democratic South Africa or that this applies to all other Middle Eastern people. This is a stretch. I will make one final revert and we can discuss the changes here until a consensus is reached. Note the WP:3RR. Waddie96 (talk) 13:39, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

If there is a source showing that their definition of white changed after apartheid was lifted, I'd love to see it.2601:84:4502:61EA:456F:E528:DD7:CF11 (talk) 14:40, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

The problem with using state-sponsored classification systems to determine the race of a specific ethnic group is that this practice in South Africa has always been notoriously inconsistent and riddled with contradictions dictated by political and practical realities. For example, Japanese were classified as "white" by the apartheid government while Chinese were not. Note that they are omitted from this article despite this historical fact. Thousands of Coloureds (the so-called "borderline cases") were classified as "white" when in fact they were not (strictly speaking). Sandra Laing was born to white parents but was classified as "Coloured". In modern South Africa, Chinese are classified as "black" under BEE legislation.

A source stating that Lebanese in South Africa currently self-identify as "white" (for example, in the census) would be preferential. --Katangais (talk) 16:14, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

That is a very difficult task since there are no sources out there (from what I could find) that discuss what "white" means in post-apartheid South Africa, nor do they give any indication that the definition of white changed after apartheid fell. The citation given in the article is mostly about racial classifications under apartheid, so it isn't any more useful than what I gave. The self-identity angle is even trickier since, as you said, South Africa was very inconsistent about racial identification. Overall, there aren't a lot of sources that discuss the racial status of Middle Eastern ethnic groups to begin with (save for Jews, Lebanese, and Syrians), but if what you're looking for is of more recent vintage, you could try these.

http://www.maronite-institute.org/MARI/JMS/july00/The_Struggle.htm

http://politicsweb.co.za/news-and-analysis/the-strange-career-of-race-classification-in-south

Both sources make it clear that Levantines were categorized as white. So I suppose you could put "Levantines" instead of "Middle Easterners" as a whole?2601:84:4502:61EA:3D9A:6035:D179:F3B3 (talk) 14:38, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

It would be appropriate to note that Levantines were classified as white under apartheid, but without a source documenting post-apartheid self-identification as white (for example, in the census) we cannot conclusively state that Levantines are white South Africans. --Katangais (talk) 17:08, 12 May 2018 (UTC)