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Action for 'Already exists' should be augmented for foreign words

The action column for reason=Already exists in the table in the Quick-fail section of the Reviewing instructions page should be augmented, to say something about foreign words in English titles. One problem to be aware of is multiple transliteration possibilities. Ideally, imho, language experts should be called upon anytime a title appears to contain a foreign word as part of the title, before any content review is performed, which could otherwise be a waste of time. Another question, is whether a foreign title should be used, or an English one. More on this at WP:UE.

(As a secondary issue: the flow-chart does not quite match the text description, with the former showing duplicate-check as part of Content review, and the latter whowing it as part of Quick-fail criteria.) HTH, Mathglot (talk) 23:13, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I think this has been discussed before, or at least something similar, but I do not expect a reviewer to check every possible permutation of the spelling of a page before accepting or declining the page. Should a page named "Joe Bloggs (photographer)" be checked against Special:PrefixIndex/Joe Bloggs to ensure that he's not better-known for some other job, like (politician)? Similarly, I would not in a million years expect a reviewer to know that an alternate spelling of Kulche is Kulcha (hell, I don't even know how I would check that). Sure, if the page is titled "Joe Bloggs (2)" there should be a check done on the non-disambiguated title (just in case), but aside from that (or blatant spelling errors) we're better off accidentally accepting (or declining) a duplicate page and having an article space gnome make the connection.

As for the "best name" of a page - see above re: gnomes. Generally speaking if I am accepting a page I'll go with whatever the creator has used (barring the aforementioned horrible spelling/punct/caps/dab errors), and if someone thinks it should be at a better/different title they're welcome to move it themselves or get an RM going. That being said, I see no problem in changing a "German name" into an "English name" if it makes sense. Bottom line, I don't think we need to mandate that reviewers do one or the other. Primefac (talk) 02:51, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Notes

Mathglot - I appreciate your picking up my Kulche/Kulcha oversight, as I said at the Helpdesk. But the suggestion that a language expert be called in every time one hits a foreign word just isn't realistic. I wish it were, given the number of drafts we get sourced entirely in Chinese, or Russian, or something else, but it isn't. KJP1 (talk) 13:51, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

I strip unnecessary (DAB)s and bracketed acronyms but ya if the title a French name like one I accepted recently I leave it. Someone else can move it to English creating a redirect if they feel strongly about it. Legacypac (talk) 14:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

AFCH and G13

AFCH should allow tagging for G13 deletion for any draft with the last edit more than 6 months old, not just ones with the AfC submission template Galobtter (pingó mió) 08:57, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Technically an non-AFC draft is outside the scope of the project, and TW is just as many clicks to nominate for G13. Primefac (talk) 13:40, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

I have the AFC thing popup automatically so it is two less clicks (don't have to select G13 as the rationale and also submit query), and easier to click the big button. Technically yes but since it already allows submitting of non-AfC drafts.. Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:44, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Fair enough, I forgot that it pops up automatically (I haven't tagged G13 in a while). Primefac (talk) 13:48, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

That would be a sweet enhancement. The big button is much easier than the radio button way down at the bottom on mobile. Legacypac (talk) 14:21, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Draft talk:Example

Shouldn't Draft talk:Example redirect here instead of to User talk:Example ? -- 65.94.42.219 (talk) 09:08, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

You'd have to ask Guy Macon (which I guess I just did), since that makes sense to me. Primefac (talk) 19:51, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

I can't think of a single reason why we might want to do that. 65.94.42.219, could you please explain?

I have taken it upon my self to maintain the various example pages on Wikipedia, because of two things:

1. They tend to accumulate random cruft as newish editors "improve" them (why does improving always involve adding to and never simplifying?) and then move on. Meanwhile the page gets bigger and bigger and farther and farther from the purpose it was created for (see below).
2. The associated talk pages get all sorts of misplaced warnings and notices plus a fair number of silly jokes. Just look at the history of User talk:Example: Notice of account creator right granted. Articles for creation submission accepted notification. Questions about a GA Nomination. Someone was waiting for those misplaced messages on their talk page.

I have addressed the talk page issue by redirecting as many of them as possible to a single talk page where I deal with them in a central location, often by gently informing someone that they sent a message to the wrong place and inviting them to send it to the right place.

The purpose of an example page is to be an example. For example, one might write "For an example of a good format for your new draft see Draft:Example." Most material written to any draft talk page is the result of a mistake. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:07, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

The purpose of a talk page is to discuss the page in question. Since it is an example of an article, to discuss it would mean to discuss how to write an article. As such, one would expect they would go to AfC talk, or Helpdesk, and not to User talk: Example, which is a useless talk page. "DRAFT TALK" isn't a random sandbox space, it is a space for discussing the draft page in question. -- 65.94.42.219 (talk) 05:35, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Editing out the Resubmit button on the Decline notice

I know I've seen this done. Can somebody remind me how? KJP1 (talk) 13:38, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

You've seen it only because I sandboxed it. Unless you're substing the entire code of the template onto the page, the resubmit cannot be hidden. Technically speaking putting |small=yes removes it, but only because that means there's a not-small template somewhere else on the page. Primefac (talk) 19:52, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

That feature should really be added to the main template. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 08:31, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

I do think it would be a really helpful addition. It would also address one of the more constant complaints re. the Afc process. KJP1 (talk) 07:09, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Declines on a Post Secendary school?

Draft:Shri Ram Murti Smarak College of Engineering and Technology (SRMSCET), Unnao has been declined by multiple reviewers. Pretty much every degree granting post secendary school is notable. Why are we declining this page over and over? Legacypac (talk) 11:43, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

I see this happen for WP:GEOLAND and WP:NTV subjects too. Typically the decline reason is insufficient sourcing or promotional. Reviewers should spend some time at AfD and learn how bad these issues have to be to merit deletion, also learn about wrinkles in notability policy. ~Kvng (talk) 13:10, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Legacypac, schools have to follow the same WP:CORP guidelines as every other organization. Primefac (talk) 19:53, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Hmm.....Primefac, no.As much as I would love that to be, we both know the current condition(s) in school AfDs.If you wish to re-in-force your RFC closure statement, which is supposedly non-understandable to a certain section of the community, AfDs ought to be the suitable venue.At any case, I'm accepting the draft and will strongly advice any other reviewer to do so, in cases of degree-awarding-instituitions et al. ~ Winged Blades^Godric 03:37, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

So... because a small group of hard-headed editors refuse to accept the results of an RFC, we should just bury our hands in the sand and pretend it didn't happen? Primefac (talk) 15:00, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

AFC submission template

Apologies if this has been asked recently, but is there a reason why it's not made obvious to new users that if they're autoconfirmed they can move their article into mainspace by themselves? Jc86035 (talk) 17:50, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Because the point of the AFC process is to ask for a review. Primefac (talk) 19:54, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

• The concept is discussed here: Lie-to-children. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:31, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

• Examples of such a lie: "The sun rises in the east". "Sunrise". Those are actually a complete fabrication. The real answers are "The horizon gets lower in the east" and "Horizonfall". And don't get me started on "dialing" a cell phosne that has buttons instead of a dial or saying "One O'Clock" in a context where there are no clock faces involved.

A joke for pedants:

Q: How do you comfort someone with bad grammar skills?

A: There, their, they're.

--Guy Macon (talk) 01:19, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Sunrise comes with an implied reference frame.

I think newcomers should be treated as adults, and given the facts, not tricked into staying in the AfC cycle. The fact that most AfC submissions are spam or paid or just plain hopeless is poor justification for the poor welcome to the few wanted newcomers that wander in. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:27, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

I have come to favor telling people AfC is an optional process on occasion. It's not like this is secret info. If they move their crap page to mainspace other editors can apply mainspace tools like A7, AfD and PROD to it - we become unshackled from the obstructionists whole rule MfD and prevent the implementation of proper CSD criteria for drafts. Also occasionally there is a draft that is borderline notable but I'm not sure and don't want to have to defend it or sully my near perfect no deletions on my acceptance record. Legacypac (talk) 07:52, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Except they will get even blunter treatment at NPP where inexperienced users and newbies are paradoxically still allowed to tag pages for deletion and treat the place like a MMORPG. Shoving stuff from AfC onto NPP may help reduce the AfC backlog (probably not), but such pages could nevertheless be as quickly rejected at AfC as they would be at NPP but with door being slammed a bit more quietly. (Hmm... can one slam a door quietly?) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:17, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Can one slam a door quietly? One can close a door decisively and politely. “Sorry, this topic is not suitable for inclusion”. Do not include “but you are encourage to improve it and resubmit”. NPP is working ok, AfC is working horribly. The solution is not to send everything AfC to NPP any more than it is to send every poor draft to MfD. The solution is for AfC to stop doing what doesn’t work. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:29, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

If a user gets into AFC, concievably it's for 2 reasons: Either they're new, or they're wanting a second set of eyes to impartially review the content prior to being pushed into mainspace. Going through AFC gives the draft a little more clout (and a second person to call on to explain why it was pushed to mainspace). There's already far too much spam, one line stubs, marginally notable crap in mainspace. Getting a draft to hit a minimum of start/B-class is a great way to not increase the entropy already in mainspace. Hasteur (talk) 00:11, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, they are new, but they don’t freely choose to go there, there are enticements to take that path. These enticements to go to AfC and start a draft are detrimental to the better choice of improving existing content. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:29, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

@SmokeyJoe: you seem to be laboring under the fallacy that new users are required to get their experience by only submitting AFC drafts. Any user can get their experience by making changes to already existing pages (barring the usual exceptions). Hasteur (talk) 13:46, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Hasteur no not at all. I strongly believe that all users should get experience in mainspace before attempting a new draft. I observe that so many poor drafting attempts are by people with not editing contributions on any other page but their drafts. I think this is unfortunate. I think the solution is to tell all newcomers to edit mainspace first. I think AfC makes it too easy to ignore a lot of advice and go straight to creating a new draft. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:23, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

The only part of the rejection template that encourage resubmission says "You are encouraged to make improvements by clicking on the "Edit" tab at the top of this page" Since they evidently already know how to edit just say "If you can WP:OVERCOME the decline reason you may resubmit after fixing the identified issues." Will that satisfy User:SmokeyJoe? Legacypac (talk) 09:40, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Will that get rid of the big blue button? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:23, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

It's proposed change to the text of all decline templates. We would only get rid of the submit button on specific decline reasons or perhaps a "hopeless" decline. Legacypac (talk) 11:31, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

I've taken to adding explicitly discouraging comments such as this one. Sometimes I come right out and say, Do not resubmit. But, yeah, an automated way to do this would be both easier on reviewers and, I think, kinder to the rejectee. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:15, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

I started working on this this morning, rewording the text, making it easier to read, etc. Then I realized that we already do all of this on {{Afc decline}} (the notice that gets placed on a user talk page when their draft is declined). It gives four bullet points, all of which are useful and none of them "encourage" resubmission. With some minor tweaking, on drafts themselves it could read:

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "{{db-self}}" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit.
• If you need any assistance, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk or on the reviewer's talk page.
• You can also use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

If no one is seriously opposed to it, I'll convert the decline notice to use this text (or something similar) This might remove some of the ambiguity (and break up the gigantic wall of text that's currently in the decline notice). Primefac (talk) 15:27, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

"If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "{{ db-self }}" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit." Can this be shorten, what does "believe" means , can we change to "convinced by reviewer comments", "Wikipedia standards ... further" = "cannot be included in Wikipedia", "you ..... text" = "Kindly Please add "{{ db-self }}" to the top of the draft text, "and click .... edit" = click the blue button. This should be shorten. Thanks. --Quek157 (talk) 19:40, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

one more for @Primefac:, can't we merge last 2 lines, for more help, you can go to either help desk or ask reviewer or IRC (with a warning not 3 at one go, it will be chaotic. Make it just the 1st line / 2nd line shorten / 3rd line. --Quek157 (talk) 19:43, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Cut the whole second dot point. It's not useful. Submitters who can read should be reading something else, their cleaning up things that don't need cleaning is wasting their time. Submitters who don't read won't read it anyway. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:45, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Reduce the third dot point to "Ask for help at Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk". Use no more than this wikimarkup.

Cut the whole fourth dot point. It's not useful to give multiple options for help, that creates more confusion that help. WP:TL;DR needs to be taken more seriously. Other methods of asking for help can be added at Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:49, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I support this streamlining of the decline notice. If only it were possible to add another big blue button that said something on the order of "I'm sorry, I now understand that I can's get this draft to become an article, please delete it for me" but in a lot fewer words. Would this streamlining and pointing people to just AFCHD mean that the apparatus that generates invitations to the Teahouse could be removed as well? — jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 05:22, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Forget teahouse and stop sending users to our talkpages for discussion. The Draft talk or our help desk is enough. I support a "request deletion" button. Legacypac (talk) 17:15, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

delete button bigger than resubmit button can??? --Quek157 (talk) 11:45, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Version 2

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you have not resolved the issues listed above, your draft will be declined again and potentially deleted.
• If you want more help, stop by the Articles for creation help desk or Wikipedia's live help channel. or the reviewer's talk page

In the spirit of avoiding "saccharine encouragement to improve and resubmit" I've included a new second bullet point. However I notice that the decline notice (next to the Resubmit button) says the same thing, so I'd be fine removing it. Two bullet points just seems... tiny. Primefac (talk) 12:24, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

no objection, and can we incoporate this also into the draft rejection itself (on the draft page) "You are encouraged to make improvements by clicking on the "Edit" tab at the top of this page. If you are the author of this draft, you may request deletion by clicking on the "Edit" tab at the top of this page, adding "{{db-self}}" at the top of the draft text and saving. If you require extra help, please ask a question on the Articles for creation help desk, ask the reviewer that declined your submission, or get help at our live help chat from experienced editors. Find sources: "Yahaya Yakubu" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · HighBeam · JSTOR · free images · free news sources · The Wikipedia Library · NYT · WP reference." is way too long. Can this 3 bullet point be there. And the find sources are quite useless, why not here are some way to find sources and only news, newspaper, books only. I personally don't know how to use the rest and for IP users wikipedia library / JSTOR may not be there. This is not an Afd. Thanks for the improvements --Quek157 (talk) 12:38, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Um... that's exactly what we're discussing. Primefac (talk) 12:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

oh, self slap. but the sources part is still valid, if they submit nonsense hardly they will use jstor and the rest. Just to explore how exactly it is hard to find sources, I created one article yesterday with just 30 mins via Google search and news I will have 8 reliable independent sources. so I think that's where we want them. per consensus above can we remove the user talkpage and replace with draft talk? or else no one will know who replied what at where and potentially we'll have 3 different answers and conversations. Quek157 (talk) 13:22, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I know can't but why not more blunt , if you search all these places and no reliable source come out this page will be tnt as no chance to surviveQuek157 (talk) 13:24, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Please take off the "reviewer's talk page" part. It just fragments the discussion and often I prefer to have another reviewer look anyway. Legacypac (talk) 14:25, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree, although in principle asking a reviewer to explain more about the reasons for a decline sounds sensible I think it has more downsides: it can cause submitters to have multiple similar discussions on different reviewers pages; it can make it seam like it's submitter vs reviewer; unless others are WP:TPS its unlikely anyone will answer any general question, leaving people to wait till whenever; often I find they only come to ask for a re-review which I don't like as it seams like queue jumping. As long as questions are being answered in a reasonable time on the AfC help desk it would seam better to shove people that way. What would be good would be if when they clicked a link to post on the AfC help desk it automatically added the reviewers username in so they get pinged. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 14:37, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I could maybe get a ping going on the HD link, but only for the draft decline notice (an AFCH rewrite would be needed for the user talk notice). Primefac (talk) 16:07, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Please also implement this on the template notice on the user page when we use the AFCH script. We must sound the same both ends too. I initially thought this is supposed to be on the user page as both set of instruction can be very confusing. For the user page notification, just a simple line such as "Please review the draft page for reasons why your draft have not been published" - then the user will simply see this, no need repetition. One more line (hopefully, but can't) is that "if you will like to, you can also publish it yourself if you are an autoconfirmed user". And quit the teahouse invite (though we can untick). --Quek157 (talk) 16:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

  This text is already on the user talk notification. People wanted an overhaul of the draft decline notice, which is what we're working on. Primefac (talk) 16:47, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Now the text reads "If you need any assistance, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk or on the reviewer's talk page. You can also use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors." (see the strike out version for proposed improvements. --Quek157 (talk) 16:55, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

And some other reads "If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to User:Nevin pillai/sandbox and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window. If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please go to User:Nevin pillai/sandbox, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "{{db-self}}" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit.If you need any assistance, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk or on the reviewer's talk page.You can also use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors." (on the user page). Depending on the decline reasons, we will give users a wide range of templates on their user page, we really need to sync all . --Quek157 (talk) 16:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

The user talk notice is substituted, so if any changes were made to the template it will not be reflected on the user talk pages where it had previously been used. Primefac (talk) 18:08, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I see, those are what I got when I rejected 2 a few hours ago, the script need to have some time to reflect the changes too, just a comment, I also agree with your decline of G12, I am very half hearted about that. However, the title of that draft needs to change, I tried to move to draftspace and it is "prohibited" and needs an admin to do it --Quek157 (talk) 18:30, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Abid Boxer

Could somebody have a look at this. It's about as libellous as you can get, but which CSD can I use? KJP1 (talk) 07:11, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

If you don't think the sources offered support the allegations, you can speedy as an attack page WP:CSD#G10. If your tool doesn't blank the attack content automatically, you should do it manually. — jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 08:27, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

jmcgnh - Many thanks. Now done and an admin can take a look. He may well warrant a page, but it needs stronger sourcing than YouTube for those kind of allegations! KJP1 (talk) 08:37, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

General sanctions apply to pages related to blockchain and cryptocurrency

The Wikipedia community has authorized discretionary sanctions and a blanket 1RR for all pages related to cryptocurrency and blockchain, broadly construed. See Wikipedia:General sanctions/Blockchain and cryptocurrencies. This means you can (and should!) hand out warnings and seek administrator help promptly when dealing with those who submit promotional drafts about new initial coin offerings and cryptocurrencies. MER-C 16:06, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

A redirect from the draft will be there

When we publish an article, the redirect will be from draft to mainspace and I had to manually G6 it. This is quite a problem, can the script do a page move without leaving a redirect or we must also have page mover rights? Thanks --Quek157 (talk) 19:53, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Quek157, you should not be deleting (or requesting it) that draft redirects to their respective article be deleted. Primefac (talk) 19:54, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

clarified, thanks, Primefac but what does the redirect does? preventing double drafts? --Quek157 (talk) 19:55, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Well first off, redirects are CHEAP, and second off, there are likely a large number of incoming links onto that draft page, and so to not make it harder to find the eventual target we leave the redirect in place. Primefac (talk) 20:02, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed explanation, understood --Quek157 (talk) 20:04, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

@Quek157: See WP:RDRAFT, and then Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 135#Draft Namespace Redirects if you want more detail. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 20:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I see, missed all out during my break from editing here. --Quek157 (talk) 20:45, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Call to arms?

NPP managed to really reduce its backlog recently and I'm assuming the call to arms messages ("New Page Reviewer Newsletter") sent by MediaWiki helped. Would a similar thing help for AfC? Maybe encourage some of the inactive reviewers (but active editors) to come back and do just a one or two. Now the backlog is finally back under 1000 it seams like maybe just a few dozen more people picking of a few could help a lot. If not now maybe if we get better tools, then people hopefully could focus on article they are more comfortable with, and certainly editors interested in more specialised topics could help easier with the older ones. Anyway just a thought. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 20:50, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Not sure4734 total unreviewed pages now still at NPP, backlog still quite high Quek157 (talk) 21:00, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree from the current number it looks bad but just randomly going back to when I remember it being large I found this for when the backlog was 22,000 only a year ago. KylieTastic (talk) 21:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Speaking of specialized topics, has a "list of expertise" ever been considered? For instance, I don't know anything about medical material, or ISPs in India, but if the topic is about old music (any genre pre-1980, say, including ancient music), old radio shows, record labels, philately, insurance, or geographic features I can usually judge an article very quickly, and don't mind being pinged if such a topic seems difficult because of poor writing or sourcing. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 21:05, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

It would be good if certainly for specialized topics people could register availability for pinging, but I can see getting people to sign-up and keep lists up-to-date being difficult, but maybe it could work. KylieTastic (talk) 21:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I put up my topic expertise on my userpage, maybe can ask those interested to put up also then anyone wanting drafts to be reviewed can go to the whole list of AFC reviewers and individually click on talkpage then see / ping? --Quek157 (talk) 23:05, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Placing your areas of interest on your userpage is well and good, but tying that together with WP:AFCP is probably a little much. It would be nice to have a page with topics listed, and names of active AfC participants under a given topic. Perhaps one of our technical wizards could write a bot removing names of editors who haven't edited in 6 months. This is just spaghetti against the wall right now. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 18:11, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

A list of what might be more familiarness would be a good idea. Especially, if we are expected to judge an articles notability. I might not know what to do with this Playwright from the 50s, but I'd know an awful lot regarding say a professional wrestler, and what makes them notable, or not. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:00, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it is worth the effort to presort - especially if it requires a human to do it when the human could be reviwing pages. A reviewer familiar with WP:ARTIST, WP:NMUSIC, WP:NPOL, WP:ANYBIO WP:CORPDEPTH and WP:FOOTY can process most of the submissions. Make a judgement call on notability, assess WP:PROMO and check earwig under reviewer tools. If you don't feel comfortable making a call comment with your thoughts and move on. You can blast through the backlog. I don't bother gnoming and categorizing since there is an army of editors in mainspace that do that. Legacypac (talk) 13:49, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

A backlog drive was discussed here in recent months and the idea was not shot down. No one took the reins though. ~Kvng (talk) 00:43, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

How old is very old

I think it's time to change "very old" to be 21 days plus. There is only about 230 pages 21+ days now, the need to distinguish between 6 and 8 weeks is not that great and it will save us many clicks back to the "weeks" categories after reviewing a page because we can just hit "very old" I think we can beat back the backlog soon. Legacypac (talk) 13:49, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I've split this into a separate section because it's unrelated to the above section. I am declining your request; simply because we have empty categories doesn't mean we have to get rid of them. Just because you don't need to distinguish between 6 and 8 weeks doesn't mean that everyone feels the same. The whole reason I split out the categories was to more accurately report and represent the backlog. Primefac (talk) 14:53, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Well a while ago you changed very old out to 9 weeks+. Can we move it back to 7 or 8 weeks again so very old is not empty most of the time? As we further reduce it can be moved again. Legacypac (talk) 14:57, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Very old is now 2+ months, which is a nice, round number. There's no reason for very old to be 1.5 months. I needed to move it out that far because it was the only accurate way to assess the backlog.

The old backlog used to have "broken" as a condition when there were more than 10000 drafts. Would we ever get to that point? No, but we still listed it. Similarly, after we clear out the 5+ week categories we might not ever use them again, but we might. There is no point in throwing away a useful tool simply because you "might not" need it again. Primefac (talk) 15:04, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Removal from the list

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I have just removed Legacypac from the AFCP list. This was not a decision I make lightly, and one I genuinely would like further discussion on, but I feel that the concerns I and others have expressed on multiple occasions are falling on deaf ears and it cannot continue.

Their current talk page includes queries regarding their review speed (which earlier today was seven accepts in ten minutes), questionable redirect practices (Special:Diff/842528746), and their archives contain more than a few requests to be more careful when reviewing drafts (in particular with respect to copyrights and bad advice). A look through the history is also worthwhile, given that some of the complaints were simply removed (which is their prerogative, but makes finding old discussions harder).

I know that Legacy is one of our highest-count reviewers, but that does not mean they are exempt from scrutiny. They repeatedly have admitted to playing fast and loose with the guidelines, including accepting articles simply for the fact that they weren't able to find a good reason to delete them as a draft (and then allowing them to be AFDd instead). There's currently a bug where sometimes a draft doesn't end up unpatrolled when it hits the article space, and I genuinely have no idea how many pages Legacy has accepted that have since not been seen by a reviewer. Either way, I know that I and multiple other users have spent an inordinate amount of time double-checking their work when we could be doing better things like giving proper reviews. They claim a very high accept-to-delete ratio but then there are AFDs like this where it is clear there was not the due diligence given and likely the high volume is masking the bad apples.

My interpretation of Legacy's actions since having their tban lifted in March is to pointedly and intentionally follow their own personal guidelines with respect to AFC submissions, flaunting or blatantly ignoring the rules just to show they can. I consider it disruptive editing, and until something is done about it I feel they should not be reviewing drafts. We might have a backlog, but that is not a reason to dump more work on other editors to clear it slightly faster. Primefac (talk) 17:09, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• I too have been keeping a close eye on his work and given the CSDs, overlooking of copy vio, and just plain spam, I agree with this decision. I'm sure the argument will be thrown around about his good outweighing the bad, and honestly, I would of agreed before this recent backlog rampage he's been on. But, being in the position of cleaning up his messes is exhausting, and I feel a break is needed for his and our sanity. Drewmutt (^ᴥ^) talk 17:36, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Commenting well after this discussion started - if Drewmutt has become exhasted cleaning up after me they must be very low energy since given the few pages they touched after I touched them [1] Legacypac (talk) 20:54, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• I've not been very active at AfC of late, but I've also run across a few articles accepted by Legacypac that clearly should not have been accepted. The fundamental premise of accepting an article is "If this article were nominated for deletion at WP:AFD, would it be likely to survive?". Accepting a draft effectively to see what happens at AfD is not a valid accept criteria, and the fact that this has been a persistent issue even after concerns have been directed at Legacypac is a serious concern. Reviewing the content and the sources of a draft and making a judgment call about it's realistic chances at AfD is a prerequisite to accepting or declining a draft. Regarding the Queryen submission, accepting a draft then telling someone else to check the sources once it's been accepted and then sent to AfD is simply unacceptable. If Legacypac agreed with the nomination for deletion, then it's quite clear that proper care was not exercised in accepting the draft. As this is a persistent issue, with concerns raised and not acted on, I have to support the removal. Clearly Legacypac should spend time in other areas of the project where they may be more successful. Waggie (talk) 17:49, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I also want to add that it's extremely confusing and WP:BITEY to new users to have these things happen to drafts when the author doesn't understand our policies and guidelines very well, nor the reasons why someone would accept their draft, then support it's deletion, or redirect their article elsewhere without any comment. We get helpees in the IRC help channel who are extremely confused and frustrated about these things and it only makes more work for everyone else when an experienced editor doesn't follow guidelines. Waggie (talk) 18:37, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• Firstly I'm really not aware of the quality of Legacypacs or anyone else's work as I don't see others work much, so in many ways it's difficult to comment. I had detected a certain direct bluntness that I don't have, but I think too a degree is needed at AfC as many, including myself, will pass over stuff that a tough call, or we wouldn't have the very old. I would also say though that I really don't care for the X accepts in Y minutes argument in itself, it should only count if any of them were wrong. If even one was a bad call then you can say well since you did X accepts in Y minutes you should slow down, but as a stand-alone complaint I don't like it. They could be articles they have been watching and just doing the final updates on each (AGF). I haven't checked them, but I do believe someone should find an actual error before calling foul. However the redirect and Queryen AfD are problematic. Personally I would prefer these things be discussion first then any restrictions, rather than the other way around. The loss of Legacypac will have a huge impact as they have been doing a lot more than anyone else ('recent' stats for those that care: 1074 accept/declines and 510 accepts), but I admit I have no metric on quality. My biggest concern is not the backlog size growing, but that the difficult calls will sit without any feedback. I've found submissions that have had no feedback at all for 7+ weeks, and that really isn't fair on the submitter... WP:BITEY is really bad, but being ignored for months is worse IMHO. It really feels like we need a better way to deal with old requests, maybe a DfD "Drafts for discussion" where once they get to a certain age it's more like AfD (but without sending them to it as accused here) and the community builds a consensus. If it's not a clear yes/no in x weeks then consensus would seam to be needed rather than expecting an individual to step up and maybe be smacked down. Just my 2 penneth KylieTastic (talk) 19:59, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
• For discussion purpose, I may not seem to be the most impartial as I had personally have some disagreements (but resolved) with Primefac. I feel that WP:BITEY seems too broadly used, I am on the receiving end of it in my first article (more details see People's Park Centre, I don't think that anyone had been biten worse than me, a 242 edit 5 month old editor, having created the first article in mainspace, within not 5 but 3 minutes I get slapped with a G11 and then within 4 hours I get threatened with an AFD) so I totally emphatize with the situation. However, per KylieTastic, not knowing the outcome of article IMO is as bad as that. I had reviewed LegacyPac last 1000 edits, and picked a few to sample (those accepted per WP:NFOOTY / WP:NHOSPITALS / WP:NCORP) and scrutinized the sources. Most are accurate. The only thing is that there is no tagging / rating or etc which may not be in the flowchart of the AFCH script. To be fair to all sides, and to prevent this being a WP:AN case, a hold of AFCH script for a period of time and a RFC maybe more appropriate than a complete revocation. We can then see the edvidences and etc. Particular interest is that the survival rate (i.e. AFD / PROD / CSD) in mainspace vis-a-vis other reviewers. I had one review of Legacypac acceptance, that was BCA Academy, @The Mighty Glen: had tagged it for G12, and it was a full 89% via earwig copy vio + it is a paid editing from BCA Academy without proper COIN disclosure. @Black Kite: helped me to decline the G12, suppressed the copyvio and turn it into a redirect to where it is. But I will like to see more examples to determine whether this is the exception rather than the norm. --Quek157 (talk) 20:54, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

There is no data showing my accepts are getting deleted in any rate higher than anyone else but Primefac is willing to risk their reputation making a hasty decision without discussion with me. And who is Waggie? They never brought any concerns to me but seem free to judge.

My acceptence criteria (as I've well publicized and advocated others follow) is: 1. Is the topic notable? Preferably incontestably notable. 2. Is the material reasonably referenced? Inline referenced especially for BLPs. 3. is there a CSD that should be applied here? 4. Does it pass earwig and a common sense test for copyvio? If a page passes these four tests I accept it. If not I reject it. With a strong knowledge of applicable policy many pages can be quickly processed.

Since the person making the accusation needs to provide the evidence,or suffer any resulting consiquences, I'll wait for someone to back up the assertions here. I'm busy enjoying myself in Mexico :) Legacypac (talk) 20:33, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi Legacypac, Primefac provided several examples of concerning behavior, did you see those? So, if that's your acceptance criteria, what happened with this draft and subsequent AfD? Why would you accept a draft, then immediately agree with it's deletion? That makes no sense if it met with your acceptance criteria. As far as who I am, I've been around for a couple years, and been involved with AfC on and off for quite awhile. We've even interacted in a few spots. No, I've never confronted you directly about any of these issues, but others have and I don't have to as well in order to register my concerns here. Either way, like I suggested above, perhaps AfC isn't the best fit for you, there are many areas of the project that need attention. Waggie (talk) 22:40, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• I'm tired and a tad (lot) drunk, but I like evidence in discussions this is a list of Legacypac last 1000 moves and and quick drunk count was 14 now deleted from main-space, of which one was Queryen. Now not all moves were AfC accepts, but most, so is that what we are talking about a 1.4% fail rate? If we are expected to miss judge less than 1.4% I'm going to not accept anything but the blindingly obvious. Maybe I'm missing something, and maybe more that a tad too much beer, but I think we need more facts (diffs, lists, whatever), not just point at Queryen. KylieTastic (talk) 23:06, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi KylieTastic, I hope that your beverage of choice is tasty tonight and forgiving tomorrow morning. Ok.. So, the concerns I have are poor review practices, specifically accepts and the general rate of review. Some examples have already been pointed out, and Legacypac had already had a conversation with Primefac on the topic, all linked to by Primefac. Some more evidence? Easy, I looked at the list of moves you linked to. Second in that list you provide is Adil_Lari, a draft with entirely offline sources which Legacypac accepted only 1 minute after accepting Alain Njoh Njoh Mpondo, a draft with 10 sources, which was only 2 minutes after accepting Jay Gambetta which was a draft where the only sources actually discussing the subject were primary sources. I'm not cherry-picking here, these are three accepts in a row.

Legacypac can find, read, and evaluate seven offline foreign-language sources in less than 60 seconds, open and read 10 online sources in less than 120 seconds? Primary sources are now acceptable for establishing notability? This was at the top of the list in the link you provided. I'm sorry, but it's clear to me that he's not properly reviewing sources. He clearly understands how to review, as his stated acceptance criteria are pretty close to the reviewing instructions. AfC isn't a race and we might as well not have AfC if reviewers are blindly accepting drafts without actually reviewing the sources. There's always a backlog at AfC and we should not be declining good articles, or accepting bad ones just because of the pressure to relieve that backlog.

As far as evidence regarding BITEYness, I can't provide logs for the confused helpees on IRC, but trust me when I say that I've fielded some very confused newbies who have no idea what's going on, and it places the helpers in a very difficult position and reflects very poorly on Wikipedia. It IS best to "ignore" a draft, rather than confuse people, because if someone is frustrated, we can truthfully and easily say there is a backlog, apologize to them, and try to work on the backlog a little harder. Explaining why an admin deleted their draft right after it was accepted is a lot harder. I do agree that there's issues with some drafts getting passed over due to them possibly being more difficult to review, but that's no excuse for not fully reviewing a draft before accepting it. Waggie (talk) 00:13, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Re primary sources, Jay Gambetta is an academic and so exempt from the general guidelines if the subject meets WP:PROF, which he easily seems to; I could assess that article in ~30 seconds, aside from running it through Earwig. It could do with some of the promotional wording toning down but wouldn't meet G11 in my opinion. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

That was exactly my assessment. Legacypac (talk) 13:28, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Waggie I don't see you or anyone else trying to CSD or AfD your examples. I've love to see a list of this drafts that are getting immediately CSD'd because I watch every page I touch and I would have noticed that just like I notice the gnoming and categorization that follows an accept. If someone is complaining about having their Draft deleted and my name comes up it would be because I applied the CSD right before or after declining their SPAM or copyvio, not because it was deleted. You know you need to account for your allegations right? Legacypac (talk) 00:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I fully intend to AfD where appropriate, but haven't set aside time for it yet. What, precisely, do you mean by "account for [my] allegations"? I'm just not sure what you mean by that. As was requested by KylieTastic, I've given very specific examples regarding my concerns, clear examples where articles were not properly reviewed. Unless you are saying that you can actually evaluate 5 offline foreign-language sources in 60 seconds or less and that primary sources are acceptable for establishing notability? I'd love to know how you got access to those offline sources so quickly, because it'd make other reviewers jobs much easier. Waggie (talk) 01:34, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

• All I'm seeing is anecdotal evidence of a few bad calls, but given the sheer volume of drafts Legacypac has been going through, it is expected that anyone would make a mistake on a few of them. The 'speed of reviewing' argument is invalid as you you have no idea if he had all those articles open in multiple tabs reviewing them simultaneously (I often do this while reviewing at NPP, so you'd probably see similar stuff in my log). I haven't seen any evidence that LP's reviewing is any worse than would be expected from the average reviewer (in fact from the numbers above, I expect it would be better). In the absence of a much more systemic problem, I'd recommend putting him back on the list and tell him to slow down a bit (if he was indeed reviewing at that speed). If you guys want to kick him out, we could use his help over at NPP. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 02:02, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

The more I look at his Move Log, the less I see any problems, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nazmudin Rayani was a clear failure on behalf of AfD, as the Order of Canada clearly meets criteria #2 of WP:ANYBIO. In any case, LP clearly isn't at fault there. Nearly all of the remaining examples were articles tagged as G11. While I can't view deleted articles, I find it hard to believe that these were truly 'unambiguous' advertising or promotion, and suspect that these examples probably come down to a bit of a difference of opinion (this CSD criteria can be rather subjective). In any case, even if all of those examples were bad calls (and there are a couple bad calls, such as Queryen), there aren't enough of them to be considered a systemic or significant issue given the volume of drafts reviewed. Lets not let this become a witch hunt. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 04:15, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Personally, I find it a bit of a kick in the teeth to anyone who'd like to be involved with the project be removed simply because of working at a fast rate, or doing a bad job. From everything I've seen, the user does an awful lot of work, and as such, there WILL be errors. Even if this is judged to be too high, or guidelines aren't being adhered too, we should really be working together to promote the values and guidelines, rather than chucking people out who may or may not be doing a bad job, but clearly wants to work harder than most on the project. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:51, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I'll address speed. There are three reasons I can work very quickly. I've often already looked at Drafts due to previously declining or commenting on them or I've checking them over and decided to come back after thinking about them, so I can often do a series of quick accepts or declines. Secondly I'm a visual reader who has tested out at 5 times the average university student reading speed, so yes I can evaluate Drafts and sources I've never seen before more quickly than some other people. Third, others have pointed out my knowledge of CSD criteria is Admin level and accuracy on CSD is quite high so I no longer need to ponder if the page should be CSD'd or is likely to be CSD'd by someone else, I just know (which suggests I spend too much time on wikipedia).

Waggie has made some very unfortunate allegations above. I'd like to know IF Waggie gets access to offline sources to evaluate them? Are reviewers supposed to check offline sources before we accept a page that by all accounts appears good? I tend to WP:AGF and give the page creator the benefit of the doubt that they accurately reflected sources when I see scholarly effort sourced carefully to actual books. Legacypac (talk) 13:28, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I always thought offline sources should be taken as good faith... Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:32, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I do review offline sources wherever possible. I do not take as given that a contemporary topic would only have offline sources available, that just doesn't make sense in today's world. There are plenty of ways to verify offline sources in many cases (like the various "Look inside the book" features on many sites, Project Gutenberg, etc. I encourage you to read WP:OFFLINE, which states that we should treat offline sources like online sources (which, amongst other things, means attempting to verify them). There's a lot of good information there regarding verifying offline sources. If a draft has enough online sources to establish notability, then I do AGF on the offline sources and accept as a matter of expediency, certainly, but I verify as many sources as possible to ensure the integrity of the draft before I accept. It is our responsibility as reviewers to make sure we are not putting problematic biographical content into mainspace. AfC is not a race, no matter the backlog. Waggie (talk) 15:33, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

This is all good practice, but I'm not sure the instructions actually state that the reviewer should verify the content in detail? Reviewers are required to check that the references provided are sufficient to allow verification, but not actually to verify everything themselves. And in particular the instructions state "Avoid declining an article because the reliable sources are not free or on-line. Books, magazines, and other print-only sources are perfectly acceptable" without any caveat about chasing them down via Google Books or the like. What you are talking about sounds more like a Featured Article review, and even that goes with spot-checks not complete source review. Espresso Addict (talk) 16:14, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

The issue, in my view, isn't the accepting of borderline drafts, it's accepting drafts without a proper review. In just a few minutes I was able to verify several of the offline sources for Adil Lari, enough to verify that the subject does meet WP:GNG. I even updated the article to allow for better verification. Many offline sources can be verified without undue work and online sources should be checked to verify they actually discuss the subject and aren't primary sources. I understand that no one has a 100% accuracy rate at AfD, although I'm fairly certain that none of the drafts I've accepted have gone to AfD or been CSDd (I've have to dig to check). We just need to exercise due diligence, and if a draft is so bad that the accepting reviewer agrees with it's deletion at AfD (back to Queryan) then that's a red flag that there's a larger problem with the reviewing practices. I'm not asking for perfection, that's completely unreasonable to do so. I'm asking that due diligence be given, that's all. Frankly, I don't have time to dig through a long list of Legacypac's accepts and AfD or correct all the problematic ones. I pointed out several that I found problematic and explained why I found them problematic. If consensus is that I'm wrong, then whatever, I don't control Wikipedia. I'm just agreeing with Primefac that there seems to be a problem here. Waggie (talk) 16:27, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@Waggie: I am delighted to hear that none of your accepts have ever been taken to Afd or CSD but in the period where Legacypac has reviewed 1500 articles you have reviewed 7. If you are only dealing with surefire bulletproof articles that have zero chance of being deleted then you are not taking any risks and are not complying to the instructions of accepting those articles "likely" to survive. Your admission that none have ever been challenged is, to be perfectly honest, not something to be proud about. If all the reviewers chose only 100% surefire wins then we might as well forget the process. Dom from Paris (talk) 16:40, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Hello Domdeparis, it was not an admission, a boast, or anything of the sort. It was simply a statement, for the reader to take as they saw fit, as it had been claimed that no one had a 100% "success rate", and I even stated that I was not sure if this was the case for myself. No, I do not review hundreds or thousands of articles in a day or two. I work 60-80 hours a week and cannot dedicate any more time than I already do to Wikipedia. Also, I'm not only dealing with "surefire bulletproof articles", quite the contrary, it's just when I see an article that is borderline, I have the option (per the instructions) of improving it (which improves it's chances of success at AfD), which I usually do. I'm not chiding Legacypac for not exercising this option, however, I'm just voicing concerns about poor reviewing practices. Anyway, I've stated my opinions and given my evidence and reasoning to back them up. Thank you for your time. Waggie (talk) 16:56, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

My mistake . I understand that no one has a 100% accuracy rate at AfD, although I'm fairly certain that none of the drafts I've accepted have gone to AfD or been CSDd (I've have to dig to check). just looked a little boastful to the casual reader. But you might want to bear in mind a little phrase that we have in France "Il n'y a que ceux qui ne travaillent pas qui ne font jamais d'erreurs" which loosely translated means those that are the most productive have the greatest chance of making mistakes. Dom from Paris (talk) 17:09, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

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I have a couple issues with all this.

1. Accepting marginal drafts is not a crime it is not even a WP:BITE. A WP:BITE is when a new author creates a new page and it gets deleted within minutes or hours with a link to a policy page that looks like legalese. In order of increasing hostility, we have three choices with marginal drafts. All of these have been discussed here as valid approaches.
   1. Decline (repeatedly) in hopes that the author will realize it is not going to happen or figures out how to make the necessary improvements
   2. Accept the draft and see if anyone tries to delete it and then see if a delete verdict is rendered
   3. Nominate the draft for deletion and see if a delete verdict is rendered
2. An administrator taking the initiative to monitor behavior here seems creepy. I know there is a history with Legacypac, but still, why not wait for someone to register a complaint? I have reviewed the infractions Primefac references above and I agree that what's cited is not the sort of behavior we'd like to see from reviewers. However, the issues I see here seem more WP:TROUT worthy than WP:BAN worthy. I don't know how often this happens with Legacypac but we've all learned to deal with dickish behavior on Wikipedia. If we set a zero-tolerance policy against disruptive behavior, we might improve the Wikipedia culture but it would potentially be at the expense of the freewheeling, decentralized environment that currently exists. In any case, in practice, that's not what we we do and no bright line has been crossed here.

If we retain this ban, I suggest that it be held only for a specified and limited period. ~Kvng (talk) 14:08, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

If I understand rightly we are essentially accusing Legacypac of having a larger than acceptable number of articles accepted taken to Afd and deleted for not being up to scratch. If that is the case what is the acceptable number and can we have statistics on all reviewers ? I have not been very active myself as I have been concentrating on NPP. The AFC guidelines say that we should accept an article if it is likely to survive Afd... likely means more than a 50/50 chance. Noone has a 100% accuracy rate in Afd. If that is the criteria for having the rights then I can't see any reviewing getting done anytime soon. Dom from Paris (talk) 15:00, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Accepting borderline drafts is a perfectly reasonable action, even if they have a 50% chance of being deleted at AfD; if someone accepts a lot of borderline drafts, some are going to be deleted. If we're not careful we make it impossible for anyone except an admin to accept any article that falls short of perfection. Espresso Addict (talk) 15:52, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I would say not even admins, mailer Diablo 2005 article was hauled to AFD and I with some other saved it. That's was part of an FA even. Quek157 (talk) 16:19, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

The issue, in my view, isn't the accepting of borderline drafts, it's accepting drafts without a proper review. In just a few minutes I was able to verify several of the offline sources for Adil Lari, enough to verify that the subject does meet WP:GNG. I even updated the article to allow for better verification. Many offline sources can be verified without undue work and online sources should be checked to verify they actually discuss the subject and aren't primary sources. I understand that no one has a 100% accuracy rate at AfD, although I'm fairly certain that none of the drafts I've accepted have gone to AfD or been CSDd (I've have to dig to check). We just need to exercise due diligence, and if a draft is so bad that the accepting reviewer agrees with it's deletion at AfD (back to Queryan) then that's a red flag that there's a larger problem with the reviewing practices. I'm not asking for perfection, that's completely unreasonable to do so. I'm asking that due diligence be given, that's all. Frankly, I don't have time to dig through a long list of Legacypac's accepts and AfD or correct all the problematic ones. I pointed out several that I found problematic and explained why I found them problematic. If consensus is that I'm wrong, then whatever, I don't control Wikipedia. I'm just agreeing with Primefac that there seems to be a problem here. Waggie (talk) 16:27, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

User:KylieTastic calculated above 1.4% of my last 1000 accepts have been deleted. User:Primefac/AFCStats#Post-acceptance_statistics shows 3.6 to 7.6% deletion over various months. As the largest contributor to accepts (but only over the last several months) my personal survival percentages appear to be improving the overall AfC stats. If my survival rate is too low than experienced AfC reviewers willing to compare track records should discuss a reasonable survival rate. Anyone who does not have a bunch of accepts to compare against is just armchair quarterbacking and should step up and show us how to do AfC correctly. Legacypac (talk) 17:16, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

That's a specious defence. Primefac's statistics reflect all AfC acceptances ever accepted by us that happened to have been nominated in a particular month. This is relevant because the average age at which an AfC acceptance gets nominated is far older than the maximum age of one month reflected in your last thousand. What would be helpful (perhaps) is a comparison with the general rate for acceptances that took place over the same period as your most-recent thousand. NewYorkActuary (talk) 17:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding Primefac's stats or maybe not. If 4-7% of all pages ever accepted by AfC are deleted each month pretty soon there would no AfC accepted pages left. The allegation is my accepts are being quickly CSD'd and AfD'd which is not true - now the goal posts are being moved. AfC should not be a gatekeeper that excludes 100% of drafts that might be subjected to a deletion discussion. Legacypac (talk) 18:38, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

No one ever said we're excluding 100% of those drafts, and you are misunderstanding my stats. For each month, about 4-7% of the accepted drafts are deleted. This has been discussed multiple times and is viewed as a perfectly acceptable percentage. Primefac (talk) 18:48, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@Primefac: So what is your argument for removing him from the list then? His overall statistics seem quite good. While some more of these articles he has approved might get taken to AfD in future, worsening his stats, that is a purely speculative hypothetical that can be dealt with at a later date if it ever happens (based on the obvious behind the scenes scrutiny that has been going on, I doubt it will happen). In the mean time there is no evidence that his rate of misfire is any worse than anyone else, just that his volume of reviewing has resulted in more individual examples. Anecdotes do not equal statistics, please add him back to the list. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 21:49, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I am not gonna go into statistics here. But Removal of Legacypac from AFCP list took me by the same amount of surprise as discovering sock-puppetry of SwisterTwister did. Something unimaginable though. Dial911 (talk) 22:44, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

User:Dial911 - The two should not be mentioned in the same sentence, except as being completely different, an apple and a serpent's egg. The merits and demerits of reviewers can be debated, but sockpuppetry is just plain wrong. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:13, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, I was not comparing both the incidents as they both are mutually exclusive. However, 'this' was as sudden and surprising and unexpected to me as 'that' was. Dial911 (talk) 02:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

In a related event Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jay_Gambetta concerning a page User:Waggie complains about my accept on here - they just proved they don't know much about what will or will not pass AfD. Perhaps their AfC tools need to be removed User:Primefac as there is a clear competance issue here. Legacypac (talk) 23:56, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Your comment about 'armchair quarterbacking' above made me chuckle, and seems more than apt in this case. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 00:12, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Let's try to keep in mind that this discussion is in relation to Legacypac, and not Waggie. I can't see a situation where taunting participants in the conversation could be helpful to anyone involved. SQL^{Query me!} 00:15, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Anyone is subject to getting hit in the back of the head with a WP:BOOMERANG when they make complaints about someone else. In terms of the "Perhaps their AfC tools need to be removed" bit that LP said above; while I might assume that this is facetious and intended to be somewhat tongue in cheek, it is also appropriate. On the grounds and evidence provided for LP's removal from the list (isolated evidence of bad judgement), the same argument applies to Waggie if LP's sanctions are to be upheld (in which case you might as well remove me as well, because I also make the odd mistake and I doubt that my error rate would be any better than LP's after 1000 articles). I want it to be clear that *I* think that neither of these users should receive anything other than a red cheek and a slight fishy smell about the face from a thorough trouting. Legacypac is willing to have the balls to make difficult calls within the grey area of borderline articles, this is admirable and needed and he has been doing well when you compare him to the baseline. This situation reminds me of Robert McClenon's RfA, where a few bad calls at CSD were used to crucify him, despite the fact that his rate of errors was actually extremely low and the reason that there were even a few bad examples was because he had been doing many thousands of CSD nominations. I very much regret opposing that RfA, and I won't stand by while the same thing happens again. We cannot let the community destroy prolific editors that generally do a very good job by pulling out a few anecdotes and repeating them over and over. The only way to avoid making mistakes is to not bother to do anything of worth at all. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 01:24, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, I don't see that as the main reason for the opposition to my RFA. Maybe that is why User:Insertcleverphrasehere opposed, in which case I am willing to accept their apology as a case where seeking perfection was an enemy of the good. However, I see the real issue at my RFA that I consider quality control (and crud control) to be of first importance, even more important than outreach to new editors or expansion of the encyclopedia, and, on top of that, I then wouldn't make the usual statement to be a different editor for six months and come up when I was someone else. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:52, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: With regards to your RfA, I was on the fence regarding the "content creation vs. deletionist" debate, and I suspect many others were as well (I think there is room for all kinds of admins). I regret personally being swayed to the oppose camp by SoWhy's evidence and have regretted it for some time. You definitely have my apologies. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 02:06, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

While the comment about removing Waghie's AfC access is a little sarcastic let's remember I'm not the one who showed really bad judgement by piling on a bad decision with a bunch of nonsense allegations and then POINTEDly AfDing a page he knows (or at least was already told) passed PROF. In an act of mercy, that was speedy closed in less than 1/2 a day while I still get a pop up saying I my AfCH does not work. [2] See John 8:7 Legacypac (talk) 02:11, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

User:Legacypac - I am not quite sure what that has to do with this. That had to do with the death penalty for adultery, and with what may have been a list in the dust of their sins. (Maybe He wrote it in Latin or Sanskrit, because if it had been written in Hebrew or Greek, they would have known what was written.) I assume that Legacypac means that his critics are too willing to throw stones at him. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the chapter summary but the key quote is "let he who is without sin throw the first stone" and that the accusers left in shame when it was pointed out they were no better than the accused. Legacypac (talk) 02:34, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Jesus didn't say that the accusers were no better than she was, at least not verbally, but that was probably what he wrote in the dust. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:48, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

So the question is whether Legacypac's critics have also made mistakes. My guess is that they have. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:48, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

SQL, they're welcome to taunt me all they want, I not concerned. Thanks for your concern, though. :) Waggie (talk) 02:14, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I promised myself I'd say my piece and bow out, but this conversation is a good example of why we're at this point. We can all sit here and cite stats, and honestly, I feel that's a beside the point. People can forgive as much as others fault, but the currency for that transaction is humility. Picking at each other's past can feel like winning a debate; but, this isn't a debate on logic, in my opinion. Even with my nit picking, I respect Legacy and the impact he has on the backlog, he won me over with the G13 crusade, and I'm happy he did. I agree with some others, it should be a break, with a predetermined amount of time. I'm by far the smartest person in the room, and I welcome you back, I just hope it comes with accepting critical feedback. The people here, both in this conversation, and all over this silly project have made me a better person in ways I didn't even know I was faulted at. If you are the company you keep, you could do a lot worse than being in good company around here. Drewmutt (^ᴥ^) talk 02:52, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Did you want a trip to ANi Waggie? Legacypac (talk) 02:34, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

As someone who has visited before, I suggest avoiding the pilgrimage. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)} 02:35, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Why is it that any time someone does something you don't like, you immediately threaten to bring them to ANI? This is one of the main reasons why I had been avoiding this post for so long, but also why I ultimately made it; because of the repeated veiled threats that you'd be coming for my mop or you'd take editors to ANI over completely frivolous garbage. You're on a collaborative project and not everyone will always agree with you. Primefac (talk) 13:51, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

how many admins are here already , this is ANI in all but name only IMO Quek157 (talk) 10:46, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• Undecided - I don't yet have an opinion on the merits of the de-AFC-ing of User:Legacypac because I haven't finished researching their complicated history. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:44, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Acceptance for Purpose of AFD Question

  I don't know whether this is the place to bring this up, because I am already discussing it with User:Legacypac, and I prefer to keep discussions centralized, but there is mention above of having a higher than normal rate of acceptances taken to AFD and deleted, and I have an issue, that I think is a serious problem, with User:Legacypac saying that drafts should sometimes be accepted in order to be taken to AFD and deleted. In my opinion, accepting a draft for the purpose of requesting its deletion is completely wrong. I haven't actually seen Legacypac do this, only say that this should sometimes be done. If they have actually done this, it is problematic, although I won't say that it warrants de-AFC-ing. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:44, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Just a note the MFD is way too slow, after the recent submission, I don't bother anymore. This comment will start of another MFD vs AFD which is now in 20 places, better place will be on the RFC. Focus on whether they should or not to strip off their tools based on quick acceptance and competency to assess drafts to prevent rather than taking to AFD please Quek157 (talk) 10:44, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I have converted this into a lvl2 discussion, because while it is directly related to the discussion above I think it could stand "general" opinions on the matter. Primefac (talk) 14:14, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

What RFC? Where? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:53, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Helper script does not work

Helper script does not work for me. I have activated it in Preferences > Gadgets. I use Google Chrome, ver 66.0 (32-bit) in Windows 7. My user name is approved. --AntanO 02:30, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I have solved the issue. --AntanO 02:33, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Bilal Abbas Khan

If someone could remove the create protection on this one. Dial911 (talk) 22:24, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@Dial911:, help you requested using TW --Quek157 (talk) 23:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 May 2018

59.96.156.53 (talk) 09:58, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

•  Not done - I think this may have been an error. We deal with drafts here, and are not protected. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:01, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

what drafts you are taking about, some drafts are create protected by sysops , fyi Quek157 (talk) 10:56, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Malaysian Journal of Library and Information Science

I note someone declined this journal draft last year. Journals with impact factors, even very low ones, are generally considered notable. There's some advice at Wikipedia:Notability (academic journals), and if in doubt, you can ask for an opinion at Wikiproject Academic Journals. Thanks, Espresso Addict (talk) 10:47, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• Hi Espresso Addict if your interested there is another couple waiting for review Draft:Machine Learning and knowledge Extraction (Journal) Draft:Visual Anthropology (journal) Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 13:14, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, I've processed them. Espresso Addict (talk) 15:17, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Creating a standard "best practice" for problematic editors

At the beginning of May I had the intention of starting a "spring cleaning review" thread on this board asking for editors to email me any concerns regarding active AFC reviewers. I would evaluate these concerns and if enough (or significant) complaints were levied against one user I would bring it up here for further discussion. However, real life and other more pressing on-wiki issues kept me from doing so, and a recently closed thread about one editor's reviewing has made me think that at the very least that system would be a good starting point for future "review of reviewers".

At the moment the only "review" process for a reviewer is when they are on probation - so far a handful of editors have successfully passed, and a half-dozen are currently in probation. After a month threads about probationary reviewers are started so they can receive feedback on their editing; when the probation is over if there are no further issues they'll be considered in good standing.

Should this review process be extended to all reviewers? I know starting a review thread on every reviewer would be overly excessive. Should we go with an "anonymous reporting" system like the one I described in my opening paragraph? Should we not even review reviewers at all?

In the interest of keeping things on topic, well, please keep things on-topic. This is not a re-litigation of any previous threads (though they can obviously be referenced), but sniping at other users will be reverted. This thread isn't about reviewing anyone in particular, but rather about determining some "best practices" regarding our project. Thank you. Primefac (talk) 14:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I think a major part of any potential suspensions/bans is that the conversation should be had before anything happens. Above, the user is suspended, in the opening paragraph of the thread, and the rest is argument around his quality of work. It should really be the other way around.

Also, we need to be a little bit more consertive with our efforts. It seems as though there is a wide-spread difference in opinion on how we should deal with drafts. Should we be more inclusive with borderline inclusions, as these may well pass an AfD? Or, should we be more stingy for the quality of mainspace? Should we continually allow non-notable drafts to be worked on, when there is zero chance of ever making it to main space? Or, should we be deleting drafts that are completely non-notable, and perhaps scare off wikipedians, or come off as WP:BITEY. Maybe if we can be a bit more clear on what is expected (If stats are being monitored, then we should have a set limit for accepted articles that are later deleted as being acceptable).

Even then, we shouldn't be too harsh on other reviewers, as we are all working on the project. I think a good thing to do, is to publically air out potential problems with how reviewers act (Even if that is annonymously), and try and work on things that could be deemed as problematic. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:51, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I concur, a discussion should have been had above, and that's why I'm starting this (to hopefully avoid these things in the future). There is (and always will be) a broad spectrum of users who review drafts, ranging from "this has a source so I'll accept" to "not every sentence is referenced so it's not acceptable". But this is not the point of this thread. The purpose of this thread is to discuss how we deal with problematic editors when/if we find them.

If Editor A thinks that Editor B is doing a bad job, should A just post here saying "here are drafts X, Y, and Z, and so I don't think they should be in the project"? Should it just be a procedural "this person has had more than M% of their acceptances deleted, discuss"?

I certainly like the idea (in your last para) regarding airing out issues - even if Editor B is doing something wrong, Editor A can ask for clarification "in general" and see how the discussion pans out. It's been done before and is usually successful. Primefac (talk) 14:58, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't think there can be a one-case-fits-all model for these things, as obviously, certain infractions are more important than others. However, some issues could easily be solved by simply talking about whatever the concern is, and get a consensus for what the proper course of action should be. Sometimes the issues that someone might be bringing up might not even be a problem. If we believe that a 15% plus (random number) AfD percentage is the limit of acceptableness, it might be worth having a public list somewhere of what people's stats are. I'm not of the opinion that simply having a high amount of deletions is a problem, but it may well indicate bad reviewing.

I think in those cases, a message on the talk page, or even a general discussion (Heck, we could even give the reviewer helpful hints as a group), to get this percentage down. Personally, I don't do a lot of reviews, (I'm busy with other projects), but if I was to put effort into reviewing a tonne of drafts, I'd want to know that I wasn't simply going to be lambasted for this work. A reviewer did leave me some helpful hints on my talk page as I was learning, and I feel something like this is by far a better way to help the project than to simply remove someone's ability to review drafts for a period of time. Of course, if someone simply ignores the help, then it would need to be taken further. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:16, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

For what it's worth, at the moment I check all of the deleted drafts every month (for stats-keeping) and as of yet no one has more than 2-3 deleted pages per month (and none consistently month-to-month).

And yes, sometimes a note is all that is necessary - I have left dozens of "by the way" notes on reviewers pages. Small issues shouldn't be treated as world-ending, but habitual or consistent errors definitely need to be brought up. Primefac (talk) 15:19, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• For the record, since we implemented a PERM-style request system the onlyalmost all of the reviewers that have been removed were socks (or later found to be socks), so this is not exactly a perennial issue that AFC is facing. Because of that, if people don't think it's worth discussing I'm happy to hat this. Primefac (talk) 15:26, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• I'd love to figure out how to generate a % of accepts that get deleted chart by reviewer. Then we can look at both reviewers who accept too many articles that get deleted and not enough articles that get deleted. If none of your accepts get deleted you are likely declining too many notable topics. Creators rightly complain if we decline pages that should be accepted - even more than if we accept a page that later gets deleted by discussion.

Looking at Accepts vs Rejects is misleading as I've found the newer the date category worked the more percentage of pages that need to be declined. Legacypac (talk) 15:29, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

As you say, comparing accept vs decline is problematic, and as Kudpung stated on a different thread just now there's simply no way we can make everyone review identically (if we could do that we could program a bot. Figuring out percentages is pretty easy, though; just compare redlinks v bluelinks at WP:AFC/Recent. Primefac (talk) 15:53, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• Comment. Thanks, Primefac, for starting this thread. I would urge review not to be based on any kind of simple proportion of accepted articles that subsequently get deleted. This will encourage reviewers both to concentrate on easy cases and to reject all borderline content. Mainspace is a complex filtering process that should be allowed to do its work in borderline cases, rather than one editor unilaterally rejecting articles, perhaps based on notability criteria that they don't fully understand. Also, everyone should be allowed occasional mistakes; it is patterns of unhelpful behaviour that we are looking to notice, not individual errors. Espresso Addict (talk) 15:29, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

  Yeah, I'm starting to get the idea that "talk it out" is really the best way to go forward. Primefac (talk) 15:52, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

One idea, shall we have a recall criteria (that didn't work out for admins) but since this isn't a formal permission rights, this can be a way to noncontroversial removal of AFCH. But talking it out seems the best.--Quek157 (talk) 16:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• I think having more clarity on any issues would be a good idea for all reviewers to learn from: Maybe instead of taking concerns to reviewers talk pages so that most don't see an issue until a problem blows up, maybe all deletions (within a week/month?) should be listed here in the project. That way the accepter can respond/defend/apologies and the rest can comment and learn. Maybe some default timeouts for repeat failures, i.e. not learning from mistakes gets you a couple of days/week whatever off the project. However it needs to be considered some review 1 and others 1000+ in a month.

As for the discussion on if accepting a submission that you think 'may' get AfD is OK or not, I think this has been seen as too blank or white, and timing matters. Personally I think it's totally wrong for new submissions, but for ones stuck for many weeks or months I think it could be acceptable, even beneficial. If no reviewer is happy to make a call, is it not fairer on the submitter to give it a chance rather than just sit stuck? I would find having an article stuck in AfC for many weeks depressing and it would have driven me off Wikipedia. Three possible solutions for any articles once over x days/weeks old:

1. It's just deemed OK for more accept if you can't find a reason to decline
2. Have a new template that tell the submitter "It's been deemed unclear if this article meets guidelines, if you would like it to be accepted understanding that it may be challenged/deleted please say so"
3. We have a procedure so we can build a mini consensus here on the project - to stop every old article being listed maybe one reviewer has suggest a consensus review, and then another has to second them, and then it can be listed.

Anyway just some quick pre-beer thoughts, Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 17:16, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

We already have a list of all open deletion nominations. It's under the "Submissions" tab above. Are you suggesting something that goes beyond that list? NewYorkActuary (talk) 17:44, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

And if you're interested in watchlisting anything, WP:AFCAA is the page where the article alerts are actually placed (the Submissions tab transcludes the list). Primefac (talk) 17:47, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of WP:AFCAA, my bad, but for one it includes all items regardless of time (for instance Q-Collection accepted 2015, PROD 2018) secondly it not a place to comment. What I mean is if any recent accepts get deleted, rather than talking to the accepter on their user page as has been indicate has happened, that 'issues' are discussed more openly here. Turn what can be one editor telling another they did something wrong, who may disagree, into a wider discussion, so others can agree/disagree with either side. To stop what may feel like just X has an issue with Y, into the consensus that X or Y was wrong, or neither. KylieTastic (talk) 18:37, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure we need to be discussing every draft that gets AFD'd here. Also, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/Reviewer help used to exist and was never used so it got closed. Primefac (talk) 18:41, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree, it would be too much to do all - but still I think that when someone thinks a reviewer has 'issues' that need to be addressed it would be better done here rather than '1 vs 1' on a users talk page. Having more peoples input usually helps, either to convince the accused they were wrong or to point out the accuser may be being a tad tough. A consensus is much easier to accept (for most) than a single accuser, so hopefully keeps things less confrontational. KylieTastic (talk) 18:56, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

We know users get frustrated when they wait - they post on our talkpages, teahouse, help desk etc. I love the idea of a "it's unclear" like KyleTastic suggested. However our present decline templates basically say there is not enough sources to establish...

Where it's just not a clear cut case or the creator is arguing with AFC advice I've been occasionally telling editors that AfC is an optional process, and they are free to move the page themselves. That way I don't get accused of accepting a bad page and it's their risk. As long as the editor is AC they don't need AfC anyway. Maybe that should be a "Decline" template that removes the page from AFC? After all optional goes both ways. The AfC project/reviewer should have the option to decline/refuse to review a Draft and chuck it out of the AfC system. Legacypac (talk) 18:01, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Nothing inherently wrong with letting a page creator that they take their fate into their own hands if they choose to move the page properly into the article space. Primefac (talk) 18:14, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Yup we know that AC editors can do this, but maybe they don't, so maybe a template to explain clearly the options. Also for non AC the point was we could give them the options to asks us to accept knowing it may be challenged. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 18:37, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

The problems start when a new user enters Wikipedia for the first time with the intention of creating an article. I've been saying for years that this website needs a proper entry page. I brought up the issue of the Wizard yet again a couple of weeks ago but it was almost as if I had said a dirty word. Yes, I could rewrite it easily without it being a challenge to my skills, but it would be a challenge to my time - especially as I stepped into the breach with The Signpost and resued that. It wasn't something I really wanted to do but there seems to be a lethargy across the site in many areas that are not directly adding content. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 18:50, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Removal from List

I would like to think User:Primefac for having the dignity, grace, and courtesy to reverse the decision to remove User:Legacypac from the list of AFC reviewers. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:59, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I still have serious concerns about Legacypac's frivolous attitude that questionable drafts should be moved to article space for AFD. That has nothing to do with the removal, which has correctly been reversed, but I am still deeply concerned by Legacypac's attitude, but think that they should be back reviewing (and they are). Robert McClenon (talk) 14:59, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I still want to see a rewording of the decline template. That has nothing to do with whether Legacypac should be a reviewer. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:59, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

See #AFC submission template. I'm pretty sure we're 90% of the way there. Might be worth revisiting the decline reasons themselves soon. Primefac (talk) 15:04, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I haven't yet reviewed Legacypac's complicated history. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:59, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, Primefac. You reconsidered your actions for the wiser and better course. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:59, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• I'm not taking any sides here but I do thank Primefac for having graciously reconsidered. What concerns me most however is that this entire discussion demonstrates once more just how dysfunctional AfC is and how disparate the reviewing criteria are. This is a social issue and not one that any amount of software enhancement could improve. If this were NPR, it would be almost impossible for someone to lose their rights (I've tried but been shouted down) and there aren't discussions there like these about Legacypac, for example, nor is it even common for a NP Reviewer to be required to take a trip to ANI where eventually a T-ban might be pronounced. In the absence of any structured coordination of AfC Primefac does his best to hold things together, while I am sure Legacypac's work is without doubt nevertheless extremely valuable. Personally, I think all users should be given a canned warning first and then be given the courtesy of knowing when they are being discussed, and that transparency be maintained - it's what we do elsewhere. Please let's not allow AfC to become a ducking stool or a kangaroo court, and remember that AfC as a WikiProject still has no user rights founded in policy. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:46, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• Primefac, good decision and you gained my much respect from taking back such a thing, seconded all the comments. --Quek157 (talk) 16:37, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

By Wikipedia standards there was also a lot of compassion and respect shown by and to other AfC project members in that discussion. Thanks everyone and of course that includes you too Primefac. ~Kvng (talk) 15:48, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• I agree that Primefac handled this gracefully, and hope that he and Legacypac can work together moving forward. Both are valued users in this area whom I respect. TonyBallioni (talk) 11:33, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

A-class articles

I've been looking through various lists of unassessed articles recently, and I stumbled across 6th Machine Gun Battalion (United States Marine Corps), which is listed as unassessed by the project; however, it is assessed, as A-class, incluing in your Wikiproject template. Looking at this, it looks like your template doesn't support A-class. Should I change the assessment to B-class (only for your project), will someone fix that, or what? LittlePuppers (talk) 18:44, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

We do not recognize A class articles. I see that MILHIST downgraded it to B, so I have done likewise for our template. Primefac (talk) 18:49, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Some WikiProjects do have an A class, or at least they did. (I remember this being a thing with the Military WikiProject. I thought it was above the GA status though? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:46, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, MILHIST is one of the few projects that heavily utilizes A. I believe it's technically less than GA, but only because GA has superseded it as the standard. Primefac (talk) 16:54, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Moving Drafts to Mainspace to Consider Deletion ?

If there is a different place where this discussion should be held, please advise me. I think that the principal objective of Articles for Creation is to support Draft space as a temporary place where pages can be worked on with the eventual objective of promoting them into article space. At the same time, I think that some pages in draft space, although they may be submitted once or repeatedly for review, will never be suitable for article space. We can probably agree on that.

I think that drafts should be moved (promoted) to article space when they are ready for article space, and that is usually defined as meaning that they will probably survive an AFD discussion, or, better yet, that they won’t get taken to AFD.

My question is: Should drafts ever be moved to article space when they are not ready for article space, in order to face CSD or AFD? Maybe I have misunderstood, but I have read at least one editor as sometimes saying that drafts should be moved to article space in order to have a deletion discussion. I personally think that is a terrible idea, and that draft space is a better place for questionable pages than article space. I am aware that there are unresolved disagreements about when drafts should be deleted, but I personally don’t see that they should ever be moved to article space unless the reason is that they belong in article space.

Comments? Robert McClenon (talk) 00:23, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

imo never, just strengthen the mfd process is enough. or just let time pass for G13. Quek157 (talk) 10:03, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I was under the impression that we do not nominate drafts for deletion under notability criteria. I see no reason to move them anywhere if they are not ready. Maybe instaure a deletion criteria of x declines or a g13 in time. Dom from Paris (talk) 10:10, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• If an article is definitely not ready for article space then it should be declined. However, from the previous arguments it appears to be just certain types of cases that are causing issues, the ones I've noticed:

• Firstly the one that appears to be the main issue in the past: left over articles in user space - there already appears to be a policy WP:STALEDRAFT that covers 8 options in total. I haven't seen a reason why those options aren't enough? There is also MfD, and if that fails and no one shows any interest in taking on just blank and tag {{Userpage blanked}} this effectively removes it, but allows the users to easily restart if every they desire. Also the conclusion to this RFC B3. Should it be permissible to move userspace drafts which do not meet article content standards to mainspace in order to seek deletion? - Consensus is clearly no. would make it clear for this has been decided on.
• Secondly the articles that keep getting submitted and declined, not improving and wasting our time: These can be taken to MfD, but I understand some do not like this, so an alternative would be to have a template to inform the submitter that it is no longer suitable to be re-submitted and they have three options: move themselves to main space; {{db-self}}; and should not resubmit to AfC and doing so could be treated as disruptive behaviour. This could also be used if taken to MfD and fails, it's just a declaration it's no longer deemed suitable for the AfC process.

The {{NSFW}} template can be used. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:39, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

• Thirdly the ones I care about most the ones stuck for weeks/months not being reviewed because they are borderline, or unclear. As I suggested in the "best practice" thread above have a new template that tell the submitter "It's been deemed unclear if this article meets guidelines, if you would like it to be accepted understanding that it may be challenged/deleted please say so, or move yourself, or you can continue to wait". It only seams fair when we are failing to make a call either way, that we make it clear to submitters their options.

The idea of giving an author the option of requesting that a draft be taken to article space, knowing that AFD is available, is a good idea. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:39, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Maybe I've missed something, but with MfD and WP:STALEDRAFT the only thing I think is missing is making it clearer to users what options they have, and when 'we' either think a draft will never pass or it's unclear. KylieTastic (talk) 12:23, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Drafts should only be moved to mainspace by AfC reviewers if they are deemed by the reviewer to be WP:LIKELY to survive AfD. As you can see, the definition of likely (and unlikely) is 50%. I personally interpret this to mean that it is acceptable to move borderline articles to mainspace. Doing so helps me keep in touch with how AfD works. How readily to marginal articles get nominated? What sort of delete and keep arguments are working? If you don't have AfD experience, you can't do a good job with the difficult reviews at AfC. ~Kvng (talk) 15:59, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Totally agree with Kvng. AFC reviewers should have AFD experience to know how a battleground there can be at times. Deletion cause nerves but discussion will be better. --Quek157 (talk) 22:02, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I've been applying a standard of "almost certain to avoid AfD" only because I have enemies that want to remove my ability to edit. Even then I recently lost an accept at AfD on an Order of Canada receipient that meets WP:ANYBIO #1. On the flip side I've failed to get pages I think are total crap deleted at AfD. I support the stated "likely to survive AfD" standard. AfC should try to help editors but some don't want or will not accept help and should experience mainspace rules. Some pages we just can't predict what will happen if taken to AfD and that is ok. We should not be a block against truly debatable pages being tested in mainspace. We should facilitate the inclusion of the good and stop the clearly unsuitable pages as best we can, but not try to be one person AfD decision makers. Legacypac (talk) 03:15, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

One of the last things we should ever be doing is encouraging AFC draft submitters to move the page into mainspace themselves without a review. Sure, it's technologically possible for them to do so, but it defeats the entire purpose of having AFC at all and is not an option we should be telling people is on the menu — anybody who thinks they're actually allowed to do that is just going to do it even if the page is nowhere near mainspace-acceptable. Bearcat (talk) 00:37, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

• I agree 100% with Robert McClenon's notion that moving drafts to mainspace in order to have a deletion discussion is a terrible idea. No reviewer should move a page to mainspace that is not ready for mainspace -- in other words, if it is not ready to to found by readers who come here seeking "accepted knowledge". I do not think people who submit drafts should be encouraged to move articles to mainspace themselves. Jytdog (talk) 00:56, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree with User:Jytdog with one clarification. I have occasionally told a submitter that they can move their draft to mainspace, but only as "if you insist", with submitters who argue with my advice (and possibly that of other reviewers) that a draft is not ready for article space, "You have the right to move your draft to article space yourself and take your chances on an AFD discussion." It is less troublesome to tell the submitter to go ahead and move it themselves than to continue to talking to a brick wall. For a reviewer to move a draft to article space for any reason other than because they judge it to be ready for article space is a terrible idea. For a reviewer to tell a stubborn submitter to go ahead and move it and take their chances is occasionally in order. Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:25, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

With the exception of paid editors as per WP:PAID ?

I reckon that is what he means.  :) Robert thanks for your clarification. A thought. This is a volunteer project, but everybody has to follow the policies and guidelines. Per the AfC guidelines, a) not to move stuff that isn't ready, and b) to be reasonably kind to the new editors submitting drafts. The interesting thing is where the obligation to be kind and keep interacting with new editors, ends... and how to exit, when the conversation is going no where and the draft is not really deletable. Nobody is ever obligated to keep working on anything. So how do folks exit when you have had enough? Options:

Just walk away: (JWA), saying nothing or saying something like "I've given all the time to this that I feel is reasonable, and I am going to do other things now. Someone else will come along eventually. I do hope you take my advice on board if you choose to resubmit, as the next person will likely say the same thing"

Take your chances (JWA+TYC): just say same as above, and add "You can move it to mainspace if you insist, but please understand that it is likely to be deleted"

Roll up your sleeves (RUYS) and take it the last mile, and move it to mainspace when you are done, would be a third option.

Which of those do folks do? Others? If you do TYC and the person does move it, do you then nominate it for deletion, or have you washed your hands of the matter? (which is completely fine, i am just asking). Jytdog (talk) 23:36, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Draft:International School of Temple Arts

I give up, can someone continue.started in mainspace marked by me g11, deleted for advertising, upon request restored by deleting admin who move it to draft. now that guy wanted it back to main and ask me to move it, can I ? can someone else take over this.Quek157 (talk) 09:00, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• Hey Quek157 how odd that they though you would move it for them when you obviously thought it was promotional - never seen that. I posted a reply to them, they can either move it or AfC it, or leave it to get stale. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 12:45, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
• @KylieTastic:. First is a balant G11. Then I warned the creator, then Admin deleted it. Then this person says I asked to move to draft where clearly Anthony said it is advert like in the talkpage. I saved the redeletion by asking draftify. Then I get accused and drawn into a deletion discussion where this is speedy. And they still have the intent to say that anyone can move drafts (I am a 2007 user). I really can't understand the entire logic and asking me to AFD after moving it to mainspace is no no, we just have a long discussion about legacypac thing here. They are not new either, an event coordinator from 2010 and have all the rights except NPP. Since they are autopatrolled, I don't think we need to care if they really move. However, if someone really and I am sure a lot of people are lurking at NPP feed tagging things for deletion tag that again as G11, they might even lose that right. I really don't know how such people think but can only AGF and move on, this issue should be settled by the admin. That's why sometime I appreciate RHAworth - clear CSD decline, without needing me to note for SALT he SALTed the page. Thanks for your 3O --Quek157 (talk)

Draft:Daniel Liam Glyn

I'm requesting a third opinion on Draft:Daniel Liam Glyn. Do you think he is notable enough? L293D (☎ • ✎) 02:30, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Oh, and also an IP suggested that that AFCH put decline and AFC comment templates at the bottom. What would you think about that? L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:51, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

I think all AfC comments and templates belong on the Talkpage like how the rest of Wikipedia works. The current system dates to when AfC submissions were project subpages without their own talkpages. Legacypac (talk) 13:06, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

@Legacypac: no, I was talking about the AFC templates placed on the draft. L293D (☎ • ✎) 13:12, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

So am I. The Draft should be kept clean to work on without scrolling past AfF templates and the Draft talkpage should be used instead. Then when we accept we leave our comments there. Legacypac (talk) 13:18, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

The talkpage makes sense for consistency with the rest of Wikipedia. My only concern would be how to effectively point new users to the talkpage. I'd like to see something remain on the drafts page acting as a pointer to the talk page. Tazerdadog (talk) 13:50, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

The talkpage of every page you create is watchlisted. The message sent to usertalk would also point them to Draft talk. Legacypac (talk) 13:55, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

I think it is implausable to expect most very new users to understand how their watchlist works. The user talk message might get there, but I would think a lot of newbies will check their draft page directly, possibly whole not logged in. Having something there to link New users to the talk page seems valuable. This can be as simple as a one line template at the top of the article saying that it was declined and linking to the talk page to encourage discussion there. Tazerdadog (talk) 14:15, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Tazerdadog. The simplicity of keeping it on one page for new editors is more important than consistency. ~Kvng (talk) 17:47, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

@L293D: the notability case based on the provided sources ([3], [4], [5], [6]) is strong enough that I would give it a better than 50% chance of surviving AfC. I was not able to find additional sources. I see that you have declined indicating the sources were not reliable. What did you find lacking? ~Kvng (talk) 17:59, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

@Kvng: well the fact that many people are deleted for failing NPERSON even with some RS. The person in the draft appears to be just one more run-of-the-mill composer. L293D (☎ • ✎) 19:00, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Is there now a case for deleting a sourced biography on a subject that meets WP:GNG? I didn't get that memo. ~Kvng (talk) 04:37, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

3 week backlog!

Yah happy days. Now let's cut it somemore. Legacypac (talk) 13:56, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

• Pity it only lasted a very short time, but 4 weeks is still way better than it's been in ages - well done to all those hitting the old ones and getting this done. KylieTastic (talk) 11:38, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

We can hold it under 4 weeks especially with all the new reviewers coming on. We were even under 1000 for a little bit. Legacypac (talk) 23:52, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Schools

@Legacypac, DGG, and Northamerica1000: I've never nominated an article that has been accepted at AfC for deletion but I think that's about to change, unless I've missed something? On what basis do Westcliff School of Skills and Clifton College (Botswana) meet WP:NCORP, and how did we come to accept the latter given the obvious WP:PROMO? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 18:27, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

I accepted Westcliff on the basis it is not promotional just factual and backed up by sources. It is just a specilized government run school with a 65 year history. If you look at the box below evidently every school in the district has a page (and this one should be added to the nav box) so adding this school simply allows us complete coverage of the topic. In some districts all school pages are rolled together, whch is fine but not done here. A school district is an inhabited place and autonotable. I see absolutely no harm in cataloging public infrastructure. Legacypac (talk) 19:58, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and nominated this article for deletion. In my assessment of the sources, none of them meet the criteria defined in WP:NCORP. Being a 65-year old school does not infer notability, and Wikipedia isn't about everything. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 19:21, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

For the second school compare List of schools in Botswana Looks like an over enthusiastic student effort that could be trimmed down. I'm way more concerned with business and non-notable individual spam than people with school spirit. Legacypac (talk) 20:00, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

@Legacypac: sounds like you're advocating WP:Other stuff exists as the reason for inclusion? It sounds like you're applying your own notability criteria? And are you advocating that any student should be able to publish promo and we'd accept it at AfC? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 20:53, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

I said what I mean and no more. There is no rule against covering schools. Legacypac (talk) 00:31, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

@Curb Safe Charmer: the flip side of WP:OTHERSTUFF is that if you think Clifton College (Botswana) needs to be deleted, you should probably also nominate any others eligible in List of schools in Botswana too as a group. ~Kvng (talk) 04:49, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

• The age-old problems with folks who are head over heels with schools.If Clifton College (Botswana) was on any other damn topic DGG would've G11ed it.~ Winged Blades^Godric 01:38, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
• And, DGG, however much you may feel that all schools are de-facto notable, at-least a basic level of cleanup or tagging ought be executed, before introducing such outright spams into mainspace.~ Winged Blades^Godric 01:38, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

DGG has a valid position. If Winged Blades of Godric thinks the articles need to be flagged, then he might better try asking nicely or taking the initiative to do tag bombing runs himself. There is nothing that requires stuff coming out of AfC to be pretty, it just needs to be keepable. ~Kvng (talk) 04:49, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

@Kvng: even if the reviewer considered the subject notable, it should have surely been declined as WP:NOTPROMO using the "This submission appears to read more like an advertisement than an entry in an encyclopedia. Encyclopedia articles need to be written from a neutral point of view" reason provided by the helper script, putting the onus back on the author to clean it up. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 05:51, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

The criterion for passing AfC is being likely to pass AfD. It is not whether the subject actually is or ought to be notable. On subjects where the criteria at AFD are unclear or disputed, there can be no unambiguous way of predicting. When in doubt, the issue must be left for AfD to decide -- I have sometimes even accepted and immediately brought the afd myself. No one reviewer at AfC should substitute himself for the community, and AFD is where the community makes the decisions. If something will probably pass, a reviewer has no business declining it because they think it ought not to pass. At least 90% of school articles brought to AfD even this year still pass, so there is no other valid choice at AfC than to accept them.

That said, I should have cleaned up Clifton College somewhat further, and I have just done a little. I seem to have been doing just what I often blame other people for, trying to deal with a backlog by going too fast. Nobody's immune to that, and I just as everyone else sometimes need a reminder. DGG ( talk ) 05:45, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

If it will not be deleted at AfD or by CSD we have no business complaining about fixable issues. There are but a few AfF reviewers and even fewer willing to make tough calls - but an army of interested editors in mainspace who will fix, tag, cleanup, and expand or condense pages. New pages don't need to be perfect. Legacypac (talk) 23:51, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

DGG, thanks for your reply:) My stand on the issue of schools have been pretty firm and that is to treat them as equivalents of normal establishments, without any premises of default-notability.That hardly means that the bevy of AfD participants in these discussions, (who are largely constant w.r.t the two sides) agrees with my take and as DGG notes, a majority of the schools are kept which means that while I am compelled to accept such AfC sumbissions, I may choose to !vote for deletion, shall it ever land up at AFD.~ Winged Blades^Godric 11:59, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

My view is not specifically about schools. There are many things that some of us consider important, and others not. In order to have an encyclopedia at all, rather than a debating society, we need to have some agreement about how to handle each of these. We could do in many ways, such as by voting, but instead we settle this and many other debates by the concept of consensus. Consensus does not meet having a debate, and adopting whichever view predominates by either logic or arbitrary decision or selection by a decider. Consensus means finding a solution that everyone of good will can live with. This means compromise. The rational way to compromise for broad questions of how much coverage we should give to the various individual conceptions of what is important to an encyclopedia, is to defer to each other. I am, for example, of the firm opinion that having detailed coverage for some forms of so-called entertainment is not just worthless, but harmful to the purposes of an encyclopedia by showing distorted priorities. I do not try to remove them, or even engage in debates about individual articles in this group with the hope of trying to even slightly decrease coverage. I let those interested have their area, and in turn expect comparable treatment. Compromise is also the way to handle smaller questions: since we disagree about covering schools, we had and I hope still have a compromise to divide them by level, and cover one but not the other.

If we did want to have a debating society, that's something different. I might well choose to engage in such a project, as I enjoy the sport & think I'm rather good at it. It furthermore has the positive value of improving the mind, just as some sports improve the body. But the concept of sport is that one does it for play, not for the things of life that one really cares about. DGG ( talk ) 01:40, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Nothing as to the above locus allows for accepting blatant spams and introducing them to mainspace.And, I am afraid that if Legacypac's belief to the contrary affects his workflow, that' s not likely to be much beneficial, in the long run.~ Winged Blades^Godric 11:59, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

I do not accept blatant SPAM - my point was more nuanced. Legacypac (talk) 14:14, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Script bug?

Is anybody else having problems with the AFCH script sometimes failing to actually do anything when you click on the "Accept", "Decline" or "Comment" buttons on a pending draft? Or is it just my computer being difficult for no apparent reason? Bearcat (talk) 00:34, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I just reviewed Draft:National Business Crime Centre with no apparent problems Tazerdadog (talk) 04:39, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I have seen over the last 36 hours or so erratic misbehavior, where actions have been incomplete, such as not transferring the actual deletion reason to the user talk page or in sometimes even the article, and especially in not delaing properly with multiple reasons. It look very much like a slow script response., but I'm no expert. DGG ( talk ) 05:32, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I've had the same problem once or twice but when I refreshed it seems to done it anyway. Dom from Paris (talk) 22:40, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Script is working fine for me. L293D (☎ • ✎) 23:52, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Food Network Star (Season 14)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Please create Food Network Star (Season 14), as that is an upcoming series being aired on the Food Network in the United States and Canada - (101.98.104.241 (talk) 10:46, 30 May 2018 (UTC))

This is not the place to request articles (that's WP:RA). Primefac (talk) 11:39, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Redirects

I want to open a new question. Why do we decline submitted draft articles on the basis that what is submitted is a redirect?. Why do we not simply move them to the proper part of the project for considering redirects? Declining it discourages a good faith contributor on the basis of not understanding an arbitrary technical separation in the way we've set up a complicated process--it accomplished nothing positive. DGG ( talk ) 01:43, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Having recently gone through all of the accepts for Jan-Apr, I saw a lot of accepted redirects. Is this really an issue? I do note that Category:AfC submissions declined as a redirect has 90 drafts in it, but I haven't looked to see when they were submitted or who declined them. Primefac (talk) 12:24, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure why we wouldn't simply accept them, as redirects are cheap. The only issues are when the redirect isn't suitible; or hard to judge, in which case pass on to the relevent team. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:33, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I must admit it confused me when I saw others reject them and then I noticed the AFCH option for it, but I assumed it was "policy" and have just gone with the flow. I had guessed the reason was that on Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Redirects you have to give a reason, but drafts tend to just have the redirect with no reason. If it's obvious I would think accepting is fine, if not reject and send them to Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Redirects to give a reason? KylieTastic (talk) 12:47, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

AfC/Redirects is part of our project. Who cares which box someone drops the request, if it makes a good redirect just create it. I'll go check declined as a redirect category ans see if we need to create some out of it. Legacypac (talk) 15:15, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Women in Red June editathons

		Welcome to Women in Red's June 2018 worldwide online editathons. New: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Meetup/79|WiR Loves Pride]] New: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Meetup/80|Singers and Songwriters]] New: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Meetup/81|Women in GLAM]] New: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Meetup/82|Geofocus: Russia/USSR]] Continuing: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Meetup/00|#1day1woman Global Initiative]]
		(To subscribe: Women in Red/English language mailing list and Women in Red/international list. Unsubscribe: Women in Red/Opt-out list)

--Ipigott (talk) 06:52, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

VJ Lokesh

can anyone help me out to create vj lokesh — Preceding unsigned comment added by Soniyavelliangiri (talk • contribs) 07:00, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Biggest piece of advice I can give you: You need sources that are about VJ Lokesh, not just videos of stuff he's in. We don't need you to prove that VJ Lokesh exists, we need you to prove that he's a notable person. That means you need sources that were not created by VJ or the television stations he's worked for, sources that talk about VJ or his work. These could be magazine or newspaper reviews of his work, whether in print or online. Other sources are possible as well. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:07, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Quint Buchholz

This has been around forever and declined 5 times. However reviewers say it is really close. Can this be passd to mainspace to test it? We should not be holding back pages that are likely ok. Legacypac (talk) 21:22, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

If the author wants to fight the lions of mainspace who are we to oppose it. If you don't think it's ready, include a note on the Talk page about why it was promoted over objections. Hasteur (talk) 01:31, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, there are occasions where I accept something that's borderline, and I leave a talk page message to say why I'm on the fence (usually to imply that it passing AFC was not a rubber-stamp for it's guaranteed notability). Primefac (talk) 14:09, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• It's looks like a borderline accept - I looked for more sources to help it but failed. So as the options come down to decline again and hold here as we arn't sure, or accept and give it a fighting chance I agree give it a chance. The only caveat I would add would be if the submitter User:Julietta17 or User:Quibu as the main contributor (possibly the same person?) say that they don't want us to accept it if we don't feel it has a good chance of surviving an AfD. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 16:53, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The submitter evidently wants it in mainspace given they have submitted it to AfC so many times. Legacypac (talk) 18:19, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• I accepted it after removing a bunch of unsourced statements. I know it's borderline, so feel free to revert me or take it to AfD if you disagree. Bradv 04:39, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

MINREF again

I know we discussed something like this in 2014, it's possible I've missed other discussions since.

I see the reviewing guidelines as contradicting themselves in at least one situation. Here's a key example, that I tried to explain to a confused long-term non-AfC aware editor recently.

In one place, we write: "Article submissions that are likely to survive an AfD nomination should be accepted and published to mainspace."

In another, we have, both in our workflow diagram, and alluded to in other places, a suggestion that drafts should be declined for failing MINREF.

These two bits of advice give different results for an article that *could*, but does not currently, have in-line citations for quotes of controversial material, but for which such citations could be found. Working years at AFD I have never seen an article deleted for MINREF when such references weren't in-line, but where known to the discussion participants.

I've been largely working to the workflow diagram, which seems to be in line the 2014 discussion, but is there a more recent consensus on how to resolve this? --joe decker^talk 22:40, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I've suggested before that we should have hard decline (not notable/not encyclopedic/100% copyvio &c) vs soft decline (major flaws but fixable). Espresso Addict (talk) 02:17, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The current situation does make for some odd accept/declines. I've just accepted the somewhat borderline Bryn Williams-Jones but found myself having to reject the absolutely bomb-proof Draft:Eric Block. Espresso Addict (talk) 16:47, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• I don't see it as a contradiction per se, rather just being an oversimplification as these summary statements often are (and have to be). Maybe it should be changed to "Article submissions that are likely to survive an AfD nomination should be accepted and published to mainspace, unless they fail minimal inline citations guild-lines"? Are there any other caveats or is it just this one?

For articles that fail WP:MINREF if they do not require those parts to meet the notability then it should just be made clear to the submitter they can either source or remove the items to get it accepted. Although if it was accepted, someone would likely come along and do that anyway for them, so the result is the same. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 17:13, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The other option would be to stubify. Find a draft that's definitely about a notable person, but there are four sections of unsourced information? Remove those sections and approve. This does mean that the creator could come back and re-add those sections without proper referencing, but it would also demonstrate that at one point it was a perfectly acceptable page. I've done this on a few occasions, and by watchlisting the page I've been able to ensure that information added after acceptance is properly referenced. Sure, most of them never reach the same size as they were in the draft space, but they're well-sourced and (to quote EA above) "bomb-proof". Primefac (talk) 17:19, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Or just pepper it with 'citation needed' tags. Unfortunately it's usually the notability-conferring material (awards &c) that genuinely needs the references added. Espresso Addict (talk) 18:20, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I would argue against that, mostly because of WP:BLPREMOVE. I'd be find leaving awards with a {{cn}} tag, but not for running prose. Primefac (talk) 18:28, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I've always interpreted the BLP policy as requiring removal of negative material that is inadequately sourced. Espresso Addict (talk) 20:25, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Cooincidentally I left a MINREF related comment for another reviewer today. I hope I got it right? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 18:07, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The population stats should theoretically have an inline source. Espresso Addict (talk) 18:26, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

...but we wouldn't decline on that basis, and would tag it as citation needed, accept the draft (assuming no major issues) and let someone fix it in mainspace. That's my understanding? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 08:04, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Yup. Galobtter (pingó mió) 08:57, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

The decline edit summary says "Declining submission: ilc - Submission is a BLP that does not meet minimum inline citation requirements"; should this be clarified elsewhere to align with that, or in the decline message? Galobtter (pingó mió) 08:57, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Accepting a Draft with Zero sources?

Is this the new standard or an abuse of AfCH script access? Nils_Forsberg. This AfC Reviewer likes to tag "Promising Drafts" without doing anything with them. Some of the tags are quite wrong. Now they submit and accept a page with no references. Legacypac (talk) 18:21, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I have not seen a requirement that a draft have sources to be accepted; this is obviously an encyclopedic subject. If there is such a requirement, please identify it for me. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:28, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

In fact, the stated standard is as follows: " Article submissions that are likely to survive an AfD nomination should be accepted and published to mainspace." There is a 0% chance that this draft will be deleted in an AFD discussion. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:30, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

It's an article on several other wikis with sources. I'd say it's fair to tag it as promising, but to move it to mainspace at very least the Swedish sources should be dumped at the bottom. Espresso Addict (talk) 18:31, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

"give me a break; this painter has articles in FOUR OTHER WIKIPEDIAS" is a worrying edit summary - Wikipedia has never been a valid reference, and many other languages allow articles with no references. If as in this case the other language articles have sources then as Espresso Addict said just copy some links over and dump at least, and there would be no drama. The "Reviewing workflow" has the step "Reliably sources?" after "Subject notable?". As like with the "MINREF again" above it looks like some are working of different principles, i.e. just "Would it survive AfD" vs the complete workflow, looks like we really do need to work on clarifications on what is expected so we are all working to the same (drama free) tune. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 18:48, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The four Wikipedias comment was shorthand for look at the other Wikipedias. These Wikipedias have reliable sources. Next time I will add them as "further reading". Calliopejen1 (talk) 19:03, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, better for the readers (always a key point for me), and easier for other editors to see why the decision to accept was made. Would hopefully stop unnecessary trips to AfD while someone gets around to adding the sources that did exist. KylieTastic (talk) 19:30, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Anyone taking an article to AfD with interlanguage links to reliably sourced articles [emphasis added] would soon be buried in a snowdrift. Espresso Addict (talk) 20:36, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

And they would be cleared after having been read the riot act of WP:OTHERLANGS. Hasteur (talk) 20:55, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Here is one with a single source Tianbao Time Plaza accepted by the same reviewer. I rejected the page because I could not find a single source in English to even confirm the building existed. Legacypac (talk) 18:29, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

English sources are not required. See WP:RSUE. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:30, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

If you do not think this is an appropriate article, please nominate it for deletion. I have no opinion on that matter, because I don't speak Chinese. But Chinese-speaking editors should be the ones determining if the article is appropriate, not you or me. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:32, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

If it is "not for you or me to decide if it is appropriate" then why did YOU decide it was appropriate and move it to mainspace? How about accepting Heuliez GX 117 again with zero sources? Why have you gone from tagging scads of drafts as "promising" but failing to do anything with them to accepting Drafts with no sources? How many more have you accepted like this? Legacypac (talk) 18:35, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Because if you remove the promising draft template, the default is deletion--without review by anyone who even speaks the language! Now that it is in mainspace, it will be discussed as appropriate. I have moved from tagging to moving because you are removing tags. If draftspace is a space of constant peril for promising articles, then promising articles should not be left there. Like I said, nominate these articles for deletion if you wish. The standard for acceptance is that they are likely to survive (not that all will survive). I believe that the articles I have moved are likely to survive AFD discussions. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:42, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Moving pages to mainspace that lack any sources leads to topic bans. Legacypac (talk) 18:48, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Can you provide an example of this? Or a policy that would justify this? Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:55, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

How about the topic ban (overturned) above for Legacypac, how about the numerous editors who have had their AFCH privilages yanked? Hasteur (talk) 18:58, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Links? (I'd genuinely like to read) Calliopejen1 (talk) 19:01, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

It's in the archive, you're supposed to read and know the policies. Hasteur (talk) 19:12, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I have read the policies, but I haven't read every discussion in the archives of this page (and it is crazy to expect me to have done so). Calliopejen1 (talk) 19:41, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

@Calliopejen1:: I'm going to say this bluntly: Your competence at judging what is "promising", what is suitable for mainspace, and your judgement regarding articles is significantly troubling to me. I would note that editors have been topic banned and dis-invited from contributing to AFC reviews for less. Please take some time out and go re-read the policies, AFD nominations, MFD nominations, and items you have "promoted" to mainspace. I believe you may change your mind. Hasteur (talk) 18:58, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

@Hasteur: That is pretty hilarious, considering your astoundingly bad nomination of Nils Forsberg. "Please take some time out and go re-read the policies, AFD nominations"... 104.163.150.200 (talk) 23:39, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Calling the question: Removal of Calliopejen1's AFCH privileges and banning usage of Promising draft

For the reasons listed in the above section, for failure to understand Wikipedia policies and use this tool within these policies, or risk being blocked from editing Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Helper_script, For misuse of the promising draft template, for general tendentious attitude I propose the follwing:

1. Removal of permissions related to AFCH
2. Topic banning from usage of the Promising draft template

Both of these restrictions indefinite until such time that competence in AFCH usage is demonstrated and understanding what makes a promising draft. Hasteur (talk) 19:12, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• Commenting purely in an administrative capacity, I'm not sure this project has the ability to implement or enforce #2, though obviously #1 is well within our purview. Primefac (talk) 19:25, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Primefac asked me for my thoughts here: I'd go a step further than him. Since the AFCH checklist is basically a PERM at this point, I don't think local consensus on a WikiProject talk page could prevent an admin from adding themselves back to the list (just like with AWB or EFM). I think admins can be banned from use of AFCH, but it would need to be at AN, not here. I have no opinion on the actual merits of this. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:34, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• I was thinking the same thing, I was wondering if Hasteur even realised Calliopejen1 was an admin? I would have thought as they were all a consensus here could do would be to politely ask and admin to abstain and not actually ban (IMHO). KylieTastic (talk) 19:48, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• I was not aware this user is an Admin! I just told them users have been topic banned for less. Legacypac (talk) 19:45, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

If that is the case then Calliopejen1 needs to hand in her mop as the fundamental competence and judgement is so lacking that I have significant doubt as to if they would be able to pass a re-confirmation RfAdmin. Hasteur (talk) 19:50, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

This is absurd. Calliopejen1 has given a perfectly reasonable explanation for why they accepted the draft, and it's now at AfD where the community will decide what to do with it. They're not going to get topic banned or desysoped because you disagree with them. – Joe (talk) 21:00, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I've long found their usage of the "promising draft" template to be somewhat indiscriminate. Now that there is an idea that template can not be removed by anyone else, such tagging is even more troubling. Combined with a series of moves that would have caused Primefac to yank AfCH from any one other than an Admin... Legacypac (talk) 21:32, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The AfD above is rapidly heading towards a snow keep, which would suggest that Calliopejen1, an admin with ten year's editing experience, does have some idea of what makes a draft "promising" after all. There have been complaints that this project has unreasonably high standards for as long as I can remember. Threatening to ban an editor for taking a slightly more inclusionist approach than the current crop of AfC regulars is hardly going to improve that reputation. – Joe (talk) 22:30, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The Nils Forsberg article is heading to snow keep, as mentioned above. The comments against Calliopejen1 at that AfD have been irrational and bordering on malicious. This discussion seems like a with hunt arising from an earlier bad blood interaction-- let's find something she did wrong and punish her. What was wrong here was Hasteur's AFD nomination and subsequent inaccurate comments. The artist is highly notable. Hasteur should make nicer comments and also read the WP:BEFORE policy, which is necessary when making AFD nomaintions.104.163.150.200 (talk) 23:35, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

No user hiding behind an IP - she did something more than once that has been highly and widely criticized and punished with tool removals and long topic bans. Legacypac (talk) 02:02, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Sure thing, user hiding behind a user name.104.163.150.200 (talk) (Gelolocate me) 02:43, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Back on topic

If an Admin is allowed to accept pages with no sources and retain access to AFCH than I propose a couple things:

• Primefac issue an unequivocal apology for removing my script access because clearly I have been reviewing well above standard. Who knew sources did not matter?
• We codify the standard that no sources are required. This will make reviewing much faster and easier as all you need is a gut feel that something is a notable topic and the info is probably verifiable.

As an example, Draft:Honda Australia is definately a notable company but the core info is completely unsourced, though seems plausable. I doubt this would be deleted at AfD. Under the "no sources" standard this should be accepted without delay. Legacypac (talk) 02:02, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I would drop the stick, Legacy. You got your access re-instated, there is no requirement for an apology. It's over, let it go. SQL^{Query me!} 02:16, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Legacypac, I can hardly be described as someone who has it out for you, and I think you’re being too hard on Primefac: he was acting in good faith and closed the thread when it was clear his removal didn’t have support. It was the wrong call in my opinion, and I’ve told him as much in private, but he does good work coordinating this WikiProject with little praise. Your removal was a mistake, and I think he’s done his best to fix it, so I don’t see the need to keep harping on it. Yes I’m an admin and so is he, but I’m just trying to be fair to him as a person like I would with anyone.

On point two: I think moving something to mainspace with no sourcing was dumb: all that had to be done to save it from G13 was add a reference or a header with “further reading” and a link. If someone thinks a draft is promising and its completely unsourced, just add a source. I don’t think it’s worth desysoping someone over, though: the admin in question does a hell of a job in other areas. She made a mistake in my mind, but we’re not talking a case request here. If you feel strongly enough about it, ask for a review of her actions at AN. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:21, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Had I moved multiple drafts to mainspace with no refs I would be at ANI right now watching a topic ban be voted, and Primefac would have yanked my tools already. We all know it. Diffs available. Only Admins are allowed to make mistakes. Legacypac (talk) 02:36, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

For an experienced user much less an admin to be placing an unsourced article in main space is simply unconscionable. If a draft is 'promising' then it should be trivial to minimally source it. If not and it is moved into article space I believe MoveToDraft's default message is something like 'Unsourced. Moved to draft to incubate' or some such. So just use it and move on.

I do not see the point of taking any action against Calliopejen1 for this instance. Doing it again would be a problem deserving of sanction, but from feedback here she should know not to. We all screw up sometimes and the world still goes 'round. Jbh ^Talk 04:46, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I was away for a couple days, and came back to this thread. One of the articles in question was Nils Forsberg, which I reviewed originally, due to having zero referencing. Personally, I'd like at least ONE source, simply to prove that the attempt has been made, and that it isn't a complete scam, or something. I wasn't particularly happy about being pinged in the AfD either, but it was kept as SNOW, so the subject clearly WAS notible, and didn't fail the AfD... which is the only real information we have on how to review articles. If there is an issue here, (I don't think there is), then we need to have a look at how the WikiProject words this, and not simply have it be down to individuals thoughts. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:43, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

We should really come together and fix the issue, rather than demanding apologies, or suggesting a topic ban. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:43, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

The only sensible solution is to conduct a comprehensive revision of our reviewing instructions, which currently require reviewers to decline unsourced drafts. There are other points in the workflow that also no longer fit our currently accepted practices. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:35, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

• I really don't see what the fuss is about. I would have no qualms accepting a draft with zero sources if the content is easily verifiable with a web search. For example, if the draft says that X is a village in Y County, and looking up X on google comes up with a) a link to google maps showing the position of X within Y, and b) passing mentions from the context of which one can infer that X is indeed a village in Y, then that's good enough. Attempting to add these as refs would be silly, no sources is better than rubbish sources. – Uanfala (talk) 23:41, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

2 Week backlog and < 1000

Moving on from this issues above....lets just take a moment to say well done to all those who have kept on bashing at the backlog and got it back to a more sensible size, and a not so depressing wait message for new submissions. Beverages of choice for everyone who's been reviewing recently. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 15:33, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Overall we are getting better at mainspacing the good instead of sending it for multiple rounds and deleting the bad instead of rejecting it over and over. Next goal - under a week. Legacypac (talk) 22:02, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I think Legacypac deserves a lot of the credit here for single handedly grinding through daily backlogs a few weeks ago now making weekly backlogs manageable. ~Kvng (talk) 13:24, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

HasteurBot G13 processes discontinuing effectively immediately

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

After repeated abuses by editors, admins, usage of the "Promising Draft", deletion nominations that are closed on the flimsiest of arguments, I'm leaving wikipedia permanantly. Thank Calliopejen and Esspresso Addict for driving the wedge in. This means effectively immediately HasteurBot's G13 maintenance is stopping. Hasteur (talk) 16:01, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Non-G13 deletion of drafts is a waste of our time and good will. Why do we do this to ourselves? ~Kvng (talk) 17:25, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

This is not the time nor the place to re-(re-re-)litigate our CSD practices. If anyone is interested in picking up HasteurBot's duties the source code is linked on their talk page; it will require a BRFA but it should be a quick pass. Primefac (talk) 17:37, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm happy to pick up the duties (or rather, Bot0612 is). I'm experienced with Python so will be able to fix bugs and expand functionality should it ever be called for. I'll take a look now. ƒirefly ( t · c · who? ) 21:48, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Indeed why did some editors do this to the rest of us? Create a mechanism where a single editor can overturn the entire system of cleaning up abandoned junk without actually doing anything. The Wiki Way is someone adds a tag and someone removes it when they resolve the issue. Users of this tag need to be very careful because incorrect application creates substantial disruption and I can forsee the application of topic bans for too high a rate of inappropriate application. Some before to make sure the page does not already exist or has not been recently deleted via AfD would be a clgood start. Heck better yet if the page is actually "promising" just mainspace it already don't leave it for someone else to sort out. Legacypac (talk) 21:59, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Practices/Best Practices for rejected drafts of subjects which are suitable for articles

Context: When reviewing pages, I often come across a draft I like but which I think needs some work before it can be accepted. If I do not have time to do the work, I sometimes bookmark the page to come back to later. Sometimes the page is accepted before I get back to it, sometimes it is still a draft and I can improve it and then accept it myself, and sometimes it has been rejected. My question is about this last case. Dilemma: When a draft has been rejected and I would like to improve the page and move it to the main space, what is the best practice? First, obviously, I should go ahead and improve the page. At that point, I do not think I need to leave the draft and wait for the original editor to make any edits they wish and submit it themselves. So there are three options: 1) I could resubmit it to AfC and let someone else review it, 2) I could resubmit it to AfC and then accept it myself, or 3) I could simply move the article to the mainspace. I generally perform 2, although when I want a second opinion I do 1. Application: A number of abandoned drafts were recently posted at WT:WIR, any of which I might like to develop. As a reviewer, I could and likely would simply perform 2. Is there any reason I should do 1 instead? Any user could go ahead and perform 3 - risking AfD but doing so in a way that avoids notifying people who watch the new AfC list. This strikes me as in poor form for a AfC reviewer to do, but I don't see any reason the article should be automatically reverted to draft in such a case. If done and noticed, should such an article be posted to the new AfC list? Smmurphy^(Talk) 10:10, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I personally, see no issue in using the script to submit as the original editor, and accepting. Especially when an article has been declined, and is clearly notable. That way, the original user gets the notifications that the article was successful. As with all of Wikipedia, no one owns a draft, so you could simply move it, but as likely new users, it may well be good practice to inform them that it's been accepted. You could leave the article to be re-assessed, but there really is no reason to do this, unless you feel you have a COI, or it's a more borderline case. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:43, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

1 and 3 would be your best options. 2 gives the community the impression that the new article has been reviewed by an independent editor and that's not the case here. That said, 2 is easier to do than 3 so I've definitely taken that shortcut. Maybe AFCH could be improved to do 3. ~Kvng (talk) 13:21, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

• I'll be honest, I've used #2 on multiple good (unsubmitted) drafts purely because it's less legwork - the script does all the work. There is nothing wrong with improving a page to an acceptable level; this is a collaborative project and we all know no one "owns" a draft. We're seeing a (positive) shift in mentality at this project, and "going through AFC" doesn't necessarily mean it will automatically get the green light from NPR (since they still have to patrol it), but no one will hold it against you if it something isn't perfect (unless it happens repeatedly). Primefac (talk) 13:32, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I regularly submit drafts I find and immediately accept them. I come across them in stale userspace, G13 eligible list, and other places. The creator gets a nice message and it makes the move easier. I see no conflict of interest at all because I did not write the draft and I have no conflict of interest with any topic on the site. Occasionally I also submit pages but don't accept them myself because I'd like a second opinion or it's a math topic or something that needs different expertise.

There is an army of NPP and other editors that watch new pages, followed by topic editors that get summoned when their page is linked or via wikiprojects. They can fiddle with the categories, fix formating, wikilink, fill in empty sections (I'll add "empty section" sometimes) and do other things. There is a very limited number of AfC reviewers so we should do our thing and not feel bad leaving work for others who do their thing. Legacypac (talk) 14:18, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Totally agree with this statement. Unless there's a reason why you would be in an COI, or would like a second opinion, we should be ok to move articles via the script if the article is suitible. It's no different from cleaning up an article before moving to mainspace in my opinion. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:22, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I'd go even further. If you write a Draft from scratch you can use the script to submit and accept it. The contribution history is there to see anyway. The script is a tool to make things easier not a special blessing of the page. I use it to make comments on drafts that have been no where near AfC sometimes even because both the draft and the creator's talk get a copy of the comment. Legacypac (talk) 14:38, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks all! That is what I figured and I'm glad for the confirmation. Smmurphy^(Talk) 19:51, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Paywalled sources - what is your practice?

This came up as I was talking with a paid at editor at Draft_talk:CAN_Capital#Notes about what was wrong with their draft and how they could improve it.

I kind of walked through how I review any page when I come across it.

One of things that arose, is at least two of the potentially strong sources are paywalled (both are commercially oriented websites that libraries don't generally have).

What do you all do when you are reviewing an AfC submission, and can't access a source that may be essential for N or just plain old V? Jytdog (talk) 00:12, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

You can AGF, or do a quick search for other sources that may exist. This should be enough to tell if the topic is notable without referring to the paywalled material. Sometimes a google search will have enough of a snippet for you to see if it is real or not. I don't think you should remove those sources unless you have something to replace them with. The same problem arises with paper books. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 03:19, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Idea re: identifying worthwhile drafts that fail

Is there any way to incorporate into the script some sort of functionality to check off whether a draft you're declining seems to have potential, and relevant wikiproject(s)? Perhaps it could even automatically post notices on those Wikiprojects at the time of the decline, so that interested editors might see a newcomer and mentor them. And then alert the Wikiproject when the draft is nearing the six-month deletion mark, so that the project could evaluate and improve/move the article if desired. Thoughts? Do people think this could be a good idea? Trying to figure out how to get attention on the drafts that could be useful and not have them end up in the trash bin. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:51, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

At the most basic level, the answer to your first question is "yes", as is the answer to most of the rest of your yes/no questions about if it could be done.

From a practical perspective, Category:AfC G13 eligible soon submissions has more than 4000 pages in it (specifically 4,048), and I'm not really sure that a WikiProject would appreciate even 0.1% of those notifications (though I suppose it could be set up like the Article Alerts as a centralized listing, but I don't think anyone really ever looks at those either). Primefac (talk) 18:58, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

In my review of declined drafts nearing G13 deletion, there is very little that is promising. I'm guessing we're talking a very very small number per WikiProject. If we got complaints, we could turn off the notifications. Or perhaps run a survey seeking input after a one-month trial. Calliopejen1 (talk) 19:12, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

This also could tie into User:SmokeyJoe's idea of a WP:WikiProject Promising Drafts. Calliopejen1 (talk) 19:16, 5 June 2018 (UTC) And ping @Uanfala: who was wanting to brainstorm stuff like this. Calliopejen1 (talk) 19:39, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Given that over half of the drafts listed at Wikipedia:Database_reports/Stale_drafts don't appear to come via AfC, the major solution we're seeking should not be specific to AfC. I'm thinking of a broader "comb" that will go through AfC submissions (from the time they're submitted) and through any other non-AfC drafts (after a certain period has elapsed since their last edit). Another reason I don't see this tying well with AfC is that reviewers already have a lot to worry about, I don't think we should be adding any additional tasks to their already complicated workflows. – Uanfala (talk) 21:24, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Maybe something as simple as a "maybe not junk" checkbox (no wikiproject selection) would be uncomplicated enough? Calliopejen1 (talk) 21:30, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Maybe the two processes can be tied together somehow? Anyway, I've brought up the topic at Wikipedia talk:Drafts#Draft-sort brainstorming. Participants are welcome to comment there. – Uanfala (talk) 23:23, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

In my experience you will have better fishing for useful stuff in userspace and G13 postponed: See guide at Wikipedia:WikiProject Abandoned Drafts and especially the Scope section.

Yes, those are good places too. But I'd like to surface new articles while their authors are still active, so we can mentor them and not lose people (along with their work). I would also like to find things before they are deleted. And if these drafts are identified at the time of submission, it will also allow editors to more easily find what is worth postponing in the first place. Calliopejen1 (talk) 20:22, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

See Category:Declined_AfC_submissions and in particular "Needing Footnotes", the "Custom" and "Needing to be merged" subcategories have the more promising topics. Once their pet topic is rejected most editors tend to wander off though (if not right after the first submission) If you want to mentor look through the active submissions and helpdesk and offer helpful comments. You might reach someone who wants help. Legacypac (talk) 20:41, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Those categories are not terribly helpful--tons and tons of junk. I'm trying to think of a lightweight way to flag the stuff that might not be junk on the front end. I did just discover Antanas Vaičiulaitis in the custom category, though, which is one of the more depressing declines I've seen lately... Calliopejen1 (talk) 21:30, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

That user has since left the project (and Wikipedia) following a CIR/DE indef block, and their reviews should not be taken as an indicator of the status of all reviewers (i.e. take them with many grains of salt and feel free to ignore the closes if they're grossly inappropriate). Primefac (talk) 12:13, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Also, for those that have missed it, we do have a draft sorter and a script that allows us to tag drafts with the relevant WikiProject(s). Notifying projects could be as simple as letting them know that there are drafts in their purview. Primefac (talk) 12:15, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I never said those categories were not filled with junk only that they might have the odd salvageable page. It is possible to find useful stuff anywhere, but is it worth the effort? Most importantly whatever you do do not disrupt the systems that clears out garbage. Individual often marginal pages are just not so important that saving one is worth making 100 pieces of junk a lot more work to get rid of. By design 100% of the pages here should only contain info available somewhere else. So if we don't have a page on X we are not depriving the world of knowledge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Legacypac (talk • contribs) 14:03, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Okay, but I'm trying to think of a better way than mining junk. Someone looks at the article at the time of reviewing. If we could add a "might be worthwhile" checkbox on the front end, editors looking through declines could focus on pages tagged that way instead of mountains of garbage. Another idea: Who does the WP:YFA page? Could we have article creators answer a couple basic questions at the time of submitting that would help us review? E.g. is this 1) a living person, 2) a dead person, 3) a company or non-profit, 4) a geographic place, or 5) other? And then send you to different submit boxes that add a bit of code to the draft. Declines in categories 1 and 3 are going to be 98%+ garbage. Declines in category 2-- fairly good chance they are not garbage. 4 and 5-- some chance they are not garbage. Maybe there are some other categories we could use to the extent there are other useful patterns. This wouldn't add any work to reviewers' plates. Calliopejen1 (talk) 16:50, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Taking this discussion to WP:DRAFT since it's not AFC specific.... Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:21, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

hi Calliopejen1 I think you are hitting on a good point here: most promising drafts are buried and require a lot of rooting around to find them and they are not categorised in any meaningful way. So an editor who wants to save drafts finds it very hard to. I think your idea of posting promising drafts to a wikiproject is great. It would help give Wikiprojects new purpose (a lot of them have slowed down) and even if the draft ends up deleted, it would help give a record of drafts that were started and thus new editors could go to refund to help get them back. Wikiprojects are also more likely to be visited by new editors than places like "promising draft" so it would help get new eyes on the projects. Edit: I notice you are discussing this in wp:drafts (not draft) so I will follow there. Egaoblai (talk) 13:44, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

unrealistic advice

Our instructions (and advice elsewhere inWP,) says: If you have an idea for the title of an article, but no content for the article itself, please make a request at Wikipedia:Requested articles This list is unmanageable, and almost nothing from the many pages of it ever gets made. It creates unrealistic hopes. We suggest it because we have nothing better to suggest; does anyone have any ideas.? DGG ( talk ) 16:08, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, we could remove it from the guidance entirely, but to be honest I think having a graveyard of bad ideas is better than people making pointless/blank pages because they want a page but don't have any information on it. Primefac (talk) 16:50, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I regularly clear out Category:AfC_submissions_declined_as_blank and yet it refills. I think a filter should be made that prevents saving Draft or Mainspace pages shorter than X (unless a redirect) with a message that says "you have not included enough information to create a new page". Yes sending them to WP:Requested articles is pointless. Why do it? Legacypac (talk) 17:09, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

We briefly discussed not allowing drafts to be submitted when they were <450 characters long, but there was enough opposition I didn't do it (instead creating a tracking category). Of course, it was also in the middle of the WMF "process improvement" thing, so if someone wants to re-start the discussion here in its own thread they're welcome to. Primefac (talk) 17:14, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Most WikiProjects have a requests place (such as WP:VG/R), in some way or another. Why not at least send them that way? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:31, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I have marked Wikipedia:WikiProject Requested articles as semi-active. Not much has happened there in the last year. It is currently a frustrating endpoint and so perhaps we should stop directing people there for now. ~Kvng (talk) 03:35, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

I think that would be hasty. The WikiProject might not be active but I know I've created articles from Wikipedia:Requested articles/Social sciences on occasion and people are still maintaining it. I don't see that it hurts to direct people there, even if takes a while. It's not like we have a better option. – Joe (talk) 15:32, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

User:DGG, User:Primefac - I have a comment that isn't directly related to Requested Articles, but is directly related to AFC. I have decided that I will never decline a draft submission as blank, because the advice is useless. Anyway, most of the blank submissions that I encounter are in sandboxes that have been submitted to AFC without being given a title, although some do have titles. Untitled submissions certainly are not requests for articles, and I don't think that other blank submissions are requests for articles. I have begun declining all such submissions as Test Edits, with a comment saying that the draft has no content. I normally advise that, if they were trying to submit a draft and were having difficulty, they should ask for help at the Teahouse. I think that declining such submissions as test edits with a comment is much better than the canned message. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:07, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I actually CSD G2 blank submissions when I find them and from the list of declined as blank. I just blank sandboxes submitted as blank to get them out of the list to be reviewed. Clearly these submissions are not intended for review. Legacypac (talk) 23:11, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

A few of the sectiona of Requested Articles are actually in use by various wikiprojects in a practical way as list of articles to be made, such as lists from topics with articles in other WPs. They could obviously movethat to subpages of the project space, but weneed to take this into accountbefore totaly dismaltling the project. On the other pagesthe topics suggested are not necessarily worthless--ity's just placing them there is about the least likely way to get an article created.

As for blank submissions, tyhiswe can fix by removing the option, or changingthe textto read "was blank submission and has been deleted" and sending them to G2. I've been doing that also. I suspect it's that people think they're goign to write something and then don't get back to it--ewhy they click the sybmit button however is something I do not understand.

Blanking blank sandboxes to clear the tagging seems a good idea. I had not thought of doing it, but now I will. DGG ( talk ) 01:40, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Second opinion?

Would someone mind reviewing Draft:John Hennessey (auto racing)? I rejected it for the reason stated on my Talk page here [7], however, the creator (Ramos.michael1) does raise valid points and - after staring at it for a few minutes - I think this is really teetering on the edge of notability. Chetsford (talk) 21:38, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I suggest we tell the user to move it themselves as they appear ready to defend any deletion attempt. Legacypac (talk) 23:10, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

That option was discussed a week ago with the general consensus being that approving a draft just to send it to AFD (or in this instance, telling them to move it so that we can AFD it) is improper. I haven't looked at the draft (might do later if I get an opportunity) but if it's borderline I suppose it would meet our "50/50 at AFD" criteria. Primefac (talk) 12:47, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

• Merge and redirect to Hennessey Performance Engineering per WP:BIO1E. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:03, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

User:Primefac kindly stop twisting my words. I never suggested "we" AfD it. I said the creator is prepared to defend it if it was AfD'd. AfC can and should decline to process some pages. Some creators don't need our help. Legacypac (talk) 23:57, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Blocked Creator/Secondary Editor

Hi,

Am currently reviewing Draft:Vascon Engineers. Now it is actually fairly well sourced (more accurately, there are some good sources within the list); its "promo-ness" is mainly due to its existence rather than its content. A secondary user added the significant piece of negative news on the company.

However it was on the username check that I realised that there is a slightly confusing area about the user and them potentially being blocked. The Creating IP isn't blocked. However they create the talk page to declare a paid COI. Another user notifies them they should create an account, and a Second IP responds in line with being the same person. That IP is later blocked and then receives a year ban for block evasion.

Now it seems reasonable that they are the same users (they are clearly in a fairly close IP block) but I can't actually confirm it. The non-blocked IP did some Paid COI notification but didn't do the whole process.

All of this leads me to query - should I just decline the draft. Does the participation of a content addition by a second editor alter a judgement on these grounds?

(Please Ping)

Nosebagbear (talk) 16:06, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Nosebagbear I've just taken a superficial look at the draft, unless there are problems with the sources or large scale copyvio, I'd be inclined to Accept it. You have not mentioned any valid reason to decline it in your post above. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 17:37, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

vast majority of it being written by probable block evading ip is the reason that I see Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:45, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Dodger67 - I had passed it on my excel checklist, sources and copyvio both passed, it was just the username step before clicking accept that was left. Given the early split view I've left it as under review for now Nosebagbear (talk) 18:10, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Galobtter, Nosebagbear One blocked and one unblocked IP wrote the draft. I'm not sure that is sufficient grounds to decline or delete it. If you're not going to make a decision soon rather unmark the draft so that someone else can do a review if they wish. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 21:26, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm going to finish the process now - in the end, it is a net benefit to Wiki to add it. Nosebagbear (talk) 22:01, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I've dropped the salting admin a request to remove creation protection - I will remove review and leave a comment that an unsalt request has been made. I'll drop it on the board tomorrow if I haven't had a response by then. (Unsigned)

Topic should be accepted per WP:LISTED. It matters not who created the page, its a notable topic. Legacypac (talk) 23:53, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Opinions on Draft:David Francis Kinney

I would like the comments of other reviewers on whether I handled this draft optimally. It was previously declined as a biography whose references did not show notability, which was correct because there were no references. I think that the subject is notable, because the draft says that he received a Pulitzer Prize, but that must be attested. I think that the author of the draft is related to the subject, possibly his daughter (maybe Jane R. Kinney) and should declare the COI. The draft was resubmitted again with no references, and I declined it with a long message. Was this the optimal response? (I know that the "pessimal" response would have been to Accept the draft because of the Pulitzer, but to run the risk that it would be tagged WP:BLPPROD. Reviewers are advised not to accept a draft that won't pass AFD, but this one wouldn't pass WP:BLPPROD.) This is an unusual situation because the subject is almost certainly notable but the submission has two problems anyway, the lack of reference and COI. Thoughts? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:21, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

There are refs now, but I found he did not win the Pulitzer, his paper did. So we need better sourcing showing he was a key player winning the award. For all we know he had nothing to do with the reporting on the winning story - or he was the lead reporter? Legacypac (talk) 23:38, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

It looks like he wrote one of the pieces that is listed as "Winning Work" on http://www.pulitzer.org/winners/staff-61. It's the third one—"Political landscape in turmoil". Don't see his name on the byline of any of the other "Winning Work" pieces. /wiae /tlk 23:46, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

He was not one of the two who accepted the award in the photo. He might be a notable author if reviews can be found but not notable only for this prize. Legacypac (talk) 23:51, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Of course, for a member of his family to attribute the Pulitzer to him illustrates why Wikipedia has conflict of interest rules, because family members are likely to be biased, which is not meant to criticize them, but it is meant to question their neutrality. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:37, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Julie_Carlson notability

Hello, new AfCer and asking questions as promised!

I'm reviewing Draft:Julie_Carlson and leaning decline:

• I don't think the editor has succeeded in establishing notability distinct from Carlson's design site, Remodelista (certainly after removing the sizeable chunk of copy/paste from that article). The editor is also the creator of that article.
• While they've assembled a range of sources, they all appear to be either primary, interviews, or promotional. This person often seems to be quoted in lifestyle/design articles, but always in association with Remodelista. This NYT source is a typical example.
• At AfD, I'd be inclined to delete or merge with Remodelista.

If anyone is available to do a drive-by and confirm, that would be very helpful. Cheers, Basie (talk) 23:44, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree and I've declined it. Legacypac (talk) 23:49, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, that's appreciated (and speedy!) Basie (talk) 23:50, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Older drafts with comments

One more. Where a draft has already received some reviewer attention (e.g. Draft:Natalia_Bardo) but hasn't been accepted or declined, is it normal practice to wait and allow the page to be further improved? Basie (talk) 01:11, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

If you come across a page where a reviewer has recently (like, in the last hour) edited the page, then yes, I would leave it and come back later (they might be making big edits). If all they did was edit the page and "run" (i.e. didn't review, didn't do anything further) then you're welcome to review it. Primefac (talk) 01:27, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Gotcha, thanks. Basie (talk) 01:52, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Closure of RFC announcement

The RFC at the Village Pump regarding a modification of the language of WP:NMFD has been closed. The result of the discussion was that drafts may be deleted for notability at MfD if it also meets one of the deletion reasons and consensus determines that it is unlikely to ever meet the requirements for mainspace (emphasis added). Please see the discussion for the full close. Primefac (talk) 01:46, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

JavaScript and AFCH Permission Error

Hello,

I am writing as a result of several issues, pertaining to editing an article, in which I spent roughly 5 hours making changes and improvements. The article can be located at the following URL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRISPR?action=edit

I went to Publish Changes, and after filling out the requisite information pertaining to the edit, I selected the radio button, and all of the work I had attempted seems to have disappeared. I am sure you can understand just how frustrating this is, however I would like to know if there is a way to locate the changes.

In addition, after the attempt was made to Publish changes, I have been receiving strange and unfamiliar pop-ups, one pertaining to something to do with JavaScript, and the second mentioned something about AFCH Permission Error, at least I believe that was the acronym. I have made plenty of changes throughout WikiMedia and the Sister Projects, and have yet to encounter any errors such as this.

Please help assist with these matters, as I feel aa though I have wasted a good part of my day, without anything to show for it, thanks.

Regards,

Mark Halsey 20:41, 11 June 2018 (UTC)Mark Halsey