Talk:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

somewhat dated

as the project is completed shouldn't this article be changed to present/past tense and start having some metrics on operations....

--108.28.131.107 (talk) 20:48, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, definitely. You can help with that! The first thing is to find more recent sources of information: for example, there should be news stories about the completion of the project and beginning of operation. If you can find some good sources, you are welcome to add them to the article and update the text. If you prefer, you could link the sources here for others to use in editing the article. Thanks. --Amble (talk) 21:23, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

These may be useful: [1], [2], [3]. --Amble (talk) 21:39, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Power rating

Gross or net ? Here the documentation for ps_electrical_capacity in Infobox documentation. Current gross installed capacity in megawatts, or planned capacity from those under development. If 110 MW is the Power Station net output, gross capacity should be something more. If value is not stated, the best guess is the power turbine capacity, as by provided source. --Robertiki (talk) 02:40, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Both the developer and the owner give the rating of the power station as 110MW.[4][5] I think what's important is what is delivered to the grid, the customer, gross is irrelevant. Wikipedia definition is a bit idiotic and contradictory. The Infobox definition implys gross but the associated popup referrers to Nameplate capacity i.e "Nameplate capacity is the number registered with authorities for classifying the power output of a power station usually expressed in megawatts (MW)" which would be nett. --Andynct (talk) 11:52, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

EPC Contractor ACS Cobra, as sourced, states 125 MW. Sorry, but gross power is what was agreed. Otherwise, what happens, if some write the net power, other instead follow the instructions ? A mess.--Robertiki (talk) 04:51, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

With your definition you are claiming that every nuclear power plant on Wikipedia is listed incorrectly as they are listed by net power output and not gross power output and always have? So every power station listing on wikipedia needs to change? Have you actually thought about it? I don't think so. Are you insisting nuclear power stations pages inflate there output figures by about 50MW per reactor?Andynct (talk) 14:05, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

As per Template:Infobox_power_station for ps_electrical_capacity, instructions are: "Current gross installed capacity in megawatts, ...". You could propose to change that. --Robertiki (talk) 15:48, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Standard utility terms define gross generation as what is measured across the generator terminals and net generation as what is sold to the grid. The difference is known as plant aux power and is what is used for plant purposes such as the molten salt circulating pumps, boiler feed pumps, fans for the air condenser and power to position the plant heliostats in reference to the position of the sun. There are probably others but these are the big users. For a plant of this size 15 MW ( 125 gross - 110 net) seems about right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sgs351a (talk • contribs) 20:41, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

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Crescent Dunes commissioning

The commissioning of a thermal plant is not like flipping a switch of a photovoltaic plant or a wind turbine. It takes time, more if it's a prototype. It follows at least three stages:

• the first grid connection
• the commercial production stage
• the production ramp-up
  

An example is the new Edwardsport Power Station. Completed in 2012 (2015), started operation in 2013 (2016), and ramped up production until 2015 (2018). And Crescent Dunes suffered an 8 month freeze due to a leak in a molten salt tank (and that would give 2019 to be a fair timing). Why Ivanpah and Crescent Dunes are so studded with unfair critical sarcasm, and no one does the same with the coal plants that take a similar timing ? Beside, how can a calculated capacity factor be accepted without at least one straight year of production ? Is it the way to compare or evaluate a technology based only on a partial year ? That would/should be enough, but I will take a look at the cited source. The reputation of the cited source is questionable, the first author, for example has some critics at least. And it may look understandable if you look for who Alberto Boretti has worked. Stefania Castelletto works for the automotive industry at a Australian University. Sarim Al-Zubaidy is more a politician. I won't comment further about that. --Robertiki (talk) 04:16, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Multiple references refer to the project as being commissioned in 2016. This was two years ago. I don't think there is any unfair bias against this technology. It is a new technology which proved to have some problems in the beginning, which is normal. This does not mean you can delete referenced statements because you don't like them. Hopefully the plant will work at full power soon. --Ita140188 (talk) 05:31, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

By the way, if you find sources that back your claim that the plant need over 2 years of ramp-up and this was planned, please include them. --Ita140188 (talk) 05:34, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

This is from [6]:

Under the rollout plan with NV Energy, Crescent Dunes will now begin its official ramp-up over the coming year, with generation increasing gradually each month.

“The PPA gives us a year to ramp up. There is that flexibility because it recognizes that this is a completely new technology at this scale. However, based on the successful test results to date, we believe the ramp-up period will take less than the official timeframe.”

Crescent Dunes completed synchronization with the grid in October. Then, fittingly, the first 24-hr solar tower in the US generated its test electricity at 11 o’clock at night.

it seems the planned ramp up period from the contract was 1 year. Grid synchronization was in October 2015, over 2.5 years ago. --Ita140188 (talk) 05:41, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Robertiki: where do you see "unfair critical sarcasm"? The sentence you keep removing is just a factual statement of the current history of the plant's production, confirmed by reliable sources, including the EIA figures. --Jacques de Selliers (talk) 08:55, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

I will split the talk in two, opening a second about the capacity factor. Now about the Renew Economy article. First, context is critical. The article is dated February 2018. In February the data available was up to October 2017. Mr. Leitch made his comment with only 16 months of production data over a 25 month period, starting from the day one connection to the grid. And I won't comment further observing that the data indicates that they were still testing the mirrors movement, because there are no much other technical reasons the 2016 summer production could not reproduced in 2017. What Mr.Leitch should have done (is it or not his job ?) is to ask to SolarRererve about that. Not asking is keen as not wanting to now. And that happens with many comments about the solar towers, IMHO. Again, writing: “'Leaving aside any questions of how that could happen, or why it should take 8 months to repair ...'”, is it not a rethorical question ? Instead of wondering, why not ask first to SolarReserve ?

I know that multiple references state the project as being commissioned in 2016. But, if you look objectively the production data up to 2016, you don't need to be an expert to understand that they are simply wrong. I would say that those who write that, are not accustomed with che complexity of a steam plant commissioning, maybe because they write mostly about PV and wind, technologies, which from the user viewpoint, are really simple to understand: you flip a switch and have power directly starting from the grid connection day. Add to the steam turbine tuning problems also the novelty of finding the optimal constant mirror movement, and the picture should be clear. No unfair bias ? Maybe (but the wording is often scathing). But surely a crass ignorance about the the technical subtlety of a steam plant complex technology (multiple turbine stages, spilling fine tuning to reach optimal efficiency, and so on …). Sources about a claim that a steam plant need over 2 years of ramp-up are not needed, because you only have to look at the EIA production data of all new coal plants (it is like asking if 2 + 2 = 4, you simply look and count the marbles on the table). Add over that the complexity of focusing thousands of mirror in constant movement and you get the Ivanpah 3 year ramp-up. Look at unit 1 and unit 3 production data (unit 2 had a delay due to a destructive fire event).

Was it planned ? What do you think ? SolarReserve management (which makes the ads) was aware about steam plants ramp-up problem ? I don't know. But maybe not ?

Your source (beside, about how many times has it commented about steam plants ? at date, was SolarReserve management aware of the intricacies exposed at Ivanpah ?) implies a year ramp up. Now, in 2018, are their still any doubts that it was wrong ? ("'we believe the ramp-up period will take less than the official timeframe'" ? a steam plant ? kidding ?). And is there not a (unaware) unfair bias to write: “'Grid synchronization was in October 2015, over 2.5 years ago'” forgetting that of the 2,5 years, one third was of stoppage ? You may find thousands of sources stating one point, but Wikipedia is not a democracy, you have to look at the sources competence on the specific matter. And anyway, on technical aspects, any source filled with rethorical questions should be taken very carefully: Wikipedia is no newspaper or forum. --Robertiki (talk) 12:45, 15 June 2018 (UTC)