Talk:Iz*One

Requested move 31 August 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Iz One per discussion below. (closed by non-admin page mover) The editor whose username is Z0 09:18, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

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IZ*ONE → ? – The title should be either Iz One or IZONE. The current title is a stylisation, as indicated in the article (also, the title in the lead is inconsistent with the page name), and it cannot stay. I propose the name to be Iz One, as it fits the Wikipedia guidelines of avoiding capitals and [following] standard English text formatting and capitalization practices. On the other hand, I saw sources (although none of them is considered reliable by WP:KOREA) using "IZONE", eg. [1][2]. — bieχχ (talk) 20:05, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support Iz One per nom (repeating to make it clear which title I support). — bieχχ (talk) 20:09, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

It should clearly be Izone per other examples and MOS:TMRULES (Exo, Mamamoo, Twice, Loona etc. etc.), all those groups are using capitalized letters as official stylizations. Snowflake91 (talk) 21:02, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

I still would prefer "Iz One", as in this case the name is pronounced as two English words "is one", not /iːzoʊn/. — bieχχ (talk) 21:10, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Didnt know that, I thought it was "I-zone"...Im not sure how it should be named then. Snowflake91 (talk) 21:21, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

I don't know if I'm correct—sorry if I mislead you. Pronunciation "is one" was in the article (somebody changed it now to "ahiz one"??) and it seemed to be supported by the stylisation: I thought the asterisk separates IS from ONE. — bieχχ (talk) 21:30, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Google Translate pronounces it as "aizou one" — bieχχ (talk) 23:05, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

• Support The hangul is 아이즈원, "Aijeu Won"/"Aiz Won". If it's stylized as IZ*ONE and pronounced as "Iz One" then it really should be "Iz One". Lonedirewolf 03:05, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support for "Iz One" as per above. Heolkpop (talk) 04:21, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support move to "Iz One" per above. "IZONE" isn't a feasible option per MOSCAPS et al. ONR (talk) 12:41, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
• Support for "Iz One". The hangul is like "Eyez Won". They styled it as "IZ*ONE" to avoid confusion with "I-zone (Eye Zone)". Accireioj (talk) 05:51, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• Pending Right now none of the press is using "IZ ONE" with the space in-between, so this may have to stay at IZONE until it's clear they are making that distinguishment. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 19:36, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Most sources are using either "IZ*ONE" or "IZONE". However, due to Wikipedia's policy, we cannot use either. Having a title like "Izone" is also misleading as readers may think it is read as "Eye-zone" / "i-Zone" when it is not, based on the article's title alone (hence the hatnote). Another alternative we could make is to have the title as "IzOne". Heolkpop (talk) 07:58, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

• Support Iz One: I keep reading the article title as eye zone which can only be a bad thing - definitely move to Iz One asap. Abdotorg (talk) 10:00, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Korean romanization and pronunciation

Can we get the Korean romanization for the group name listed instead of pronounced "aiz won". The Japanese romanization is Aizuwan but one of the editors did not want to retain that. I can't tell if it should be pronounced "is one", "eyes one", "eye zee one" AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 17:01, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Izone.jpeg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:21, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Title of article

Per MOS:TMRULES, please leave the title to be Iz One. "Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization practices" and "Avoid using special characters that are not pronounced, are included purely for decoration, or simply substitute for English words or letters (e.g., "♥" used for "love", "!" used for "i") or for normal punctuation, unless a significant majority of reliable sources that are independent of the subject consistently include the special character in the subject's name." AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 16:20, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

So if the group was pronounced "eye zee star one" then you can use IZ*One. If it were "eye zee one" then IZ One. But given it's neither of those then leave as is. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 19:37, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Generally in favor of these stylization guidelines, but what makes the exclamation point in Panic! at the Disco different from the asterisk here? We have Billboard, the Telegraph and the Korea Times using "IZ*ONE"; I think this is worth reevaluating down the line. diplomat’s son (talk+contrib) 18:37, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Exclamation point could still be sounded out as emphasis, but the asterisk is not pronounced. Whether it's going to be consistently in the title going forward as with M*A*S*H can be determined. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 18:41, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Maybe Iz*One could be used instead. All caps do not make sense as it is not an initialism/acronym, see Black Pink and Exo. Heolkpop (talk) 18:56, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

I support renaming to "Iz*One" cause the current title doesn't only fail WP:COMMONNAME, but it is barely recognizable (see WP:NAMINGCRITERIA). It will be much more recognizable if it has an asterisk. --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:02, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Support as per Heolkpop and Moscow Connection's statements. "Iz*One" is far more recognizable and is used in a lot of news articles. Also, it's not in capitals since it's not an acronym. lullabying (talk) 18:11, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Using another wikipedia page as an example: why is (G)-idle title kept with the () if special characters aren't allowed? you dont say Parenthesis G Parenthesis Idle so why is it different — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.181.196.109 (talk) 16:30, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Hi 190.181.196.109, the reason why we removed your edits is to standardise with the title of the article, which is "Iz One". This standardisation is to avoid confusion amongst readers. If the title was "Iz*One", we would have amended it accordingly. But do note that there is a discussion to change the article's title to "Iz*One" per WP:COMMONNAME. Heolkpop (talk) 07:41, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Nationality dispute

An edit war over the group's origin stakes is taking place (the mirror is quite vivid, eh?)–it was previously assumed that "South Korean–Japanese girl group" is more than sufficient, seeing as how Iz One was conceived through a joint partnership between Mnet and Japan's AKB48 (as reiterated in the article). However, an editor made a valid claim that it was a sole Mnet production, thus rendering them "South Korean" as I can gather from their edit summaries. @Heolkpop: brought on references that cite Billboard, The Korea Herald and The Korea Times for "South Korean-Japanese", the other user has not. Any input is appreciated, more so those familiar with Wikipedia policy. Currently, as the article omits both nationalities "girl group formed through [...] Produce 48" is pretty neutral to me; this whole thing just reminds me of Chinese Taipei. diplomat’s son (talk+contrib) 03:09, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Just a suggestion: using sources from primarily Korean news outlets would be best to determine this, as international news outlets may not be as well informed. lullabying (talk) 03:41, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Japanese sources (even ones that have a partnership with Korean news outlets) call them a South Korean-Japanese girl group:

1. 1 (from Yahoo! News, translated from WoW Korea)
2. 2 from ''Nikkan Gendai''
3. 3 (from Kstyle)

lullabying (talk) 03:44, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Lullabying: Korean English-language sources such as The Korea Herald and The Korea Times use "South Korean-Japanese" for the group. Heolkpop (talk) 04:49, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

I think this is sufficient enough. Mkenny6, if you disagree, please list your sources. You being Korean is simply not enough. lullabying (talk) 04:53, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Mkenny6Hi! I just knew how to use it. As I left the reason of my change, the expression of “South Korean and Japanese girl group” is disputable like we’re discussing here, so I suggest to change like just a girl group as smooth expression. This is the best expression not to give people misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mkenny6 (talk • contribs)

@Mkenny6: Heolkpop has provided reliable news sources that refer to the group as "South Korean-Japanese" specifically, and most of us are in consensus that it's appropriate to use. Your personal view/politics on the matter is not relevant (see WP:NEUTRAL). lullabying (talk) 05:07, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

@Lullabying: Who are the most of you? Are you guys a kind of rulers something? And this is not my opinion and any political issue in there. You depends on just the news sources and how do you know it’s the absolutely reliable? Nowadays, there’s so many fake news. Do you agree the expression is disputable? You should because we’re discussing here! Why are you guys cling to the nations? Is this necessary to explain them? It’s enough to explain the members’ nationality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mkenny6 (talk • contribs)

@Mkenny6: If you would like to question the reliability of the sources linked, please discuss at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard and Wikipedia:WikiProject Korea, as this is not the page for it.

Please also sign off your comment with four tildes. lullabying (talk) 05:23, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Iz One is a joint project group by Korean Mnet and Japanese AKB48 Group. For example, Cosmic Girls is a collaboration between the Korean Starship Entertainment and the Chinese Yuehua Entertainment, hence it is known as the South Korean-Chinese group. So it makes more sense for Iz One to be known as South Korean-Japanese on top of the sources provided. Heolkpop (talk) 07:21, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Mkenny6: When one more than source is used as a reference (in this case, three sources are provided), it is obvious that these sources are used to fact check. There are many Korean and Western sources that use "South Korean-Japanese" so it is not disputable at all. I still do not understand what you are trying to achieve here. Firstly, you keep adding in "... 9 Korean members and 3 Japanese members". Then a few hours later, you changed to a different stance. Can you please be more consistent? Heolkpop (talk) 07:35, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Excuse me? Why do you think that this is the J-pop as well? This group was only originated from South Korean and absolute K-pop group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mkenny6 (talk • contribs) 18:50, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Sources for the current genres:

• "they're changing things up as a hybrid K-pop and J-pop venture"
• "The show featuring K-pop hopefuls and members of the J-pop idol franchise AKB"

∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 18:57, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

References

Comments from Mkenny6

What are you talking about? Have you ever wondered what people would think if they did not know about this group and saw Wikipedia information? Again, this group is a pure Kpop group. Can you say this group is Jpop genre because Japanese members are in it? Please do not distort the essence by hanging on a superficial source. In your theory, TWICE is also J-pop genre? I really really ask you to see the essence!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mkenny6 (talk • contribs) 19:29, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

So which parts are being disputed? 1) "South Korean–Japanese" girl group 2) Origin "Seoul, South Korea" 3) Genre: K-pop, J-pop? For 1) it can be written as "South Korean–Japanese girl group" or "girl group made up of South Korean and Japanese idols". Doesn't really matter as it conveys the same thing. For 2) Origin should be Seoul as the show was produced mainly by Mnet as their debut. For 3) adding J-pop on top of K-pop? That's possible if some of the songs released are J-pop songs rather than K-pop songs. But if all their songs are K-pop songs so far then it stays as K-pop. Compare to Blush (Asian band) which originates in Hong Kong and currently resides in Los Angeles, but has members from five different countries, and their charting is shown in the US market. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 19:41, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

You are right, AngusWOOF, on the J-pop matter. One of the songs from their debut EP Color*Iz, "Suki ni Nacchau Darō?", is purely Japanese, which makes it a J-pop. So, putting "J-pop" in genre is appropriate. It's funny that user Mkenny6 is using Twice as argument, when their Wiki page also has "J-pop" as their genre. Heolkpop (talk) 02:04, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

On the other hand, if they only do K-pop songs and have an accommodation where they sing the song in Japanese, as with 4minute discography, the genre for the Japanese album might be J-pop but the group is still a K-pop genre. It really depends on how much of a blend of K-pop and J-pop they are doing, on whether that should be categorized as such. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 02:19, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, the only thing we can go by is what the sources say. Is there any reason not to treat billboard.com as a reliable source here? It does say "hybrid K-pop and J-pop". --bonadea contributions talk 13:47, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

@Bonadea: I recommend having more than one source to certify that analysis, and using primary sources from Korean and Japanese media outlets would be best. lullabying (talk) 19:16, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Primary sources are never recommended, though. Are there sources that contradict what billboard.com says? Otherwise that is the only source, and it would make no sense not to follow it. Meanwhile the edit warring has started again. :-/ --bonadea contributions talk 18:50, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

@Bonadea: My bad, I meant sources primarily from South Korean and Japanese outlets. Billboard is more general and aimed towards international (Western) users. lullabying (talk) 05:57, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Kwon Eun-bi page

I would just like to report the existence of Kwon Ebi (sic). --Chiya⁹² 08:51, 28 November 2018 (UTC)