Talk:Sodom and Gomorrah

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Meaning of Sodom and Gomorah

I am fluent in both modern and biblical Hebrew, and the idea that "Sodom" is based on the Hebrew root for 'scorched' was news to me. The only source cited for this is a website by Jim Cornwell (who is he?), wherein he indeed makes this claim; however, he not only adduces no evidence of any kind whatsoever, he even states that this is "an unused root". Even if we accept the dubious premise that the name of the city must be based on a Hebrew root, how do we know that that root does not mean "frozen", "windy" or "unclean". — Preceding unsigned comment added by BenDen2 (talk • contribs) 01:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Both are Lithuanian words: Sodom meaning Buttom (Lith. Sedama) and Gomorah meaning Throut (Lith. Gomurys)

Is anyone disturbed at the superficial translations presented As to the actual germ seed sin of sodom and Gomorah - That the towns people wanted to have intimacies with the angelic beings - not Homosexuality . clearly the reference in Gen 6 To the Nefilim having intercourse with the daughters of men Both ' Then and ( later too ) ... Was the post flood reference To S and D . Also for its total destruction Truthisfree1 (talk) 04:37, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Christian Views

This section is highly POV from the conservative Evangelical / Traditionalist Catholic side and is not reflective of the diversity of Christian thought. It suggests that the main division in interpretation is whether "know" should be interpreted as sexual or non-sexual. This is actually a very minor critical issue. Most fo the discussion I have seen hinges on whether the understanding of attempted gang rape succests that the men of the city were homosexual. It looks to studies on gang rape as a crime of dominance in which the gender of the victim is unimpportant to the aggressors. It also looks to ancient Near Eastern traditions of honor and shame in which the rape of one man by another was a way of symbolicaly emasculating him. The Christian discussion also draws heavily the idea of hospitality and inhospitality as discussed in the section on Jewish views.

I think this section is in need of revision by an impratial expert. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.216.112.117 (talk) 17:14, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

The comment about Greek and Roman societies as an explanation of a story that was much older seems sort of irrelevant and it isn't well sourced.

Also this section claims to represent two different opinions, but really gives very little attention to the second. It really appears that the author of this section wants to stress the inhospitality part without giving any reference to equally held views that might be seen as a condemnation of homosexuality. I think both sides should be considered fully, I would like to offer a third view that the city was not destroyed for an particular sin but as it says in the text: "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave" --Kraftlos (talk) 11:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The source for views about inhospitality are from the prophet Ezekiel chapter 16:48-50. The words are quite explicit in verse 48 citing arrogance, abundance of food, inhospitality of strangers and ignoring the needs of the poor and needy. Whether or not archaelogical findings ever validate the actual cities, the parable/meaning of the story is quite profound and in line with the salvation/liberation strand of the Biblical texts. The sin here is a breach of justice. God sees the suffering and oppression. God calls for hospitality and awarness of those who are "less than" in society. Given most of our problems today, this story points to the Levitical Code to "love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord". Further, as many have pointed out, Lot's response to the men at his door by offering his two daughters is equally in my mind a statement of the abuse of power of men over women, a failure of justice and a failure of hospitality. This is a story about our failure to be fully human. The longing here points to being fully humane to our brothers and sisters. It stands in a long line of examples of humanity's failure to humanity. Sin here is an action of failing to empathize. So, the questions of homosexuality as the import of the story are far too minimal to be the reason for the story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Badvali (talk • contribs) 19:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm more convinced now that a critical mass of sin was the reason, not for any particular sin. The sodomy/gangrape inccident would just have been a microcausim of the general sinful condition of the city as there were not authorities present to stop the inccident or the authorities were complicant in the activity (it is also evidenced by the fact that Lot offered his daughters to the mob).

"That they were all wicked, v. 4. Wickedness had become universal, and they were unanimous in any vile design. Here were old and young, and all from every quarter, engaged in this riot; the old were not past it, and the young had soon come up to it. Either they had no magistrates to keep the peace, and protect the peaceable, or their magistrates were themselves aiding and abetting.

That they had arrived at the highest pitch of wickedness; they were sinners before the Lord exceedingly (ch. 13:13); for, 1. It was the most unnatural and abominable wickedness that they were now set upon, a sin that still bears their name, and is called Sodomy. They were carried headlong by those vile affections (Rom. 1:26, 27), which are worse than brutish, and the eternal reproach of the human nature, and which cannot be thought of without horror by those that have the least spark of virtue and any remains of natural light and conscience." (Ctrl-click)">commentary by Matthew Henry (1706-1717)

(Ctrl-click)">Commentary by John Wesley. Another (Ctrl-click)">commentary by Adam Clarke. Also a more recent (Ctrl-click)">commentary by David Guzik. The (Ctrl-click)">commentary by John Calvin seems to express both views that it was both their sexual sin and their inhospitiblity.

What I'm noticing in this Christian views section is that someone is trying to make a case that homosexuality is not a sin. Such a debate is not what is trying to be accomplished here, we just need to present views as they are. The church has traditionally regarded homosexuality as one of many reasons that the city was destroyed and to diminish that would be to skew the article toward a more liberal position. I realize though that this is a serious topic of debate right now, especially in the Anglican denomication. Please try to keep WP:NPOV in mind and not try to impose one particular view over this section. I'm going to be working in some commentaries into this section, hopefully for both views. --Kraftlos (talk) 21:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Addendum, I appologize that my references are only to protestant commentaries. I'll try to get some pre-reformation and Catholic sources as well. --Kraftlos (talk) 23:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Catholic commentaries by Thomas Haydock (Ctrl-click)">Genesis 19. --Kraftlos (talk) 06:36, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

For the Christian view, 2 Peter 2:6-7 must also be included, and currently is not. 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men For the Greek see: http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=2pe+2:7&it=nas&ot=bhs&nt=na&sr=1&l=en word here of importance is at: http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=766 defined as: unbridled lust, excess, licentiousness, lasciviousness, wantonness, outrageousness, shamelessness, insolence

The concluding paragraph is particularly bad. "This view of the Biblical story reflects that of other ancient civilizations, such as Greece and Rome, where hospitality was of singular importance and strangers were under the protection of the gods." This is just plain messy - generalizing all ancient civilizations with an article on Greek / Latin words hospitality which covers Greece and Rome, and only specifically says that in Greece travellers were, if not hostile, seen as protected by Zeus - and supposing that this applies here. It only gets worse in making a statement about Greek culture regarding women, and supposing this is relevant for the cultures involved here.

"Hospitality" should not have the last word here. The quote of Matthew seems to be referring more to judgement than it does specifically judgement tied to the particular sins in question; no one supposes the disciples were ever raped in the towns they visited or that this was even a remote possibility - and the judgement of Sodom and Gomorrah is clearly not for simply "not welcoming someone," as the context in the book of Genesis makes clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.201.106.126 (talk) 16:12, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I've never heard any serious interpretation of this passage which suggests that they were destroyed for inhospitality. I think its a bit extreme to say it was for sodomy and only that sin. I don't think either of those views are particularly representative.

Is it possible to break this into two sections? I think the old story that the Sodomites were destroyed for being sodomites has its place as a historical interpretation--but it is not supported by the Biblical text. Perhaps we could call a section "cultural interpretations" rather than "Christian Views." I would prefer to put the "homosexuality" theory under a section called "relatively new views dreamed up as a way to justify prejudice" but I don't think I can get a consensus on that one. On the other hand, the "homosexuality" theory is not supported by the Biblical text alone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.79.91.80 (talk) 18:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'd like to change what I wrote here.... your edits were pretty good at restoring balance to the article. What you are proposing though I think inserts a POV that this is a cultural interpretation that has come up recently. While I think stressing that it was because of homosexuality inaccurately downplays that fact that city had other issues; you can't deny that this view has been held historically. The word "sodomy" attests to the fact that it is not a recent concoction. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 20:36, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I did some editing as much of this page read like a personal essay, and somewhat still does, and needed for references, esp. for the "conservative" position which was somewhat more minimized. As regards the debate btwn the two views, while inhospitality was a prime sin, it was the specific expression that is the issue. The parallel story of Judges 19 along with Jude 1:7, and other references linking Sodom to sex, does provide evidence that this was their most notable physical sin, although things like pride, idleness and full stomachs and lack of compassion were concomitant with it. http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Homosex_versus_the_Bible.html But as Jesus stated, even they would have repented had they been given the grace the cities He ministered in saw, and thus such proud impenitence in the light of such grace is revealed to be even more damnable.Daniel1212 (talk) 22:43, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I must take responsibility for the (Ctrl-click) issue, which puzzled me at first, but then i remembered that my browser crashed after i had spent some time editing, but as i had copied most all the text before, so i pasted it back. But somehow (Ctrl-click) must have been added. Aside from that, I see that the Derek Kinder quote was deleted as someone did not know who he is, which may be seen here: http://reiterations.wordpress.com/category/derek-kidner/ Note that some of the previous links to the Quran need attention.Daniel1212 (talk) 12:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Seems that the problem (probably invisible control characters?) didn't go away, but I think I've fixed it. Didn't you see my edit summary about 'Kinder'? His name is Kidner, and if you want to use him you'll need the page number from a book of his so it can be, if necessary, verified. We can't use blogs as sources in this article (you can at times, but I don't see a rationale for it here). Also, it's 'biblical', not 'Biblical', as per our MOS. Dougweller (talk) 16:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Ctrl Clk problem is apparently a bug in wikEd -- when I edit with Chrome, it's a problem, but not with Firefox. I've tried to clean up the messes I've made! Dougweller (talk) 21:38, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, i am glad that the (Ctrl-click) might be solved, and thanks Dougweller for the patience and effort in working to fix it. I myself was using FF, but I see now that it even occurred on the talk page on a post by someone else. As for Kidner, thanks for the spelling correction. The blog was only for info about him, yet Mazzalonga is where the quote came from, (p. 364) and he does give the ref. page, but the quote it is not much needful now.Daniel1212 (talk) 01:31, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Let me first say that my attempt to add a reference to the Levite concubine (Judges 19ff) may be clumsy, but it does figure among Christian interpretation of the story (including Phyllis Trible's Texts of Terror). The Judges story is roughly parallel, including a gang rape (intended for the Levite, but inflicted upon his concubine). I used this to illustrate that the "sexual" part of the sexual/non-sexual interpretation is not merely sexual = consensual homosexual sex, but is more likely to be rape with intention to kill. For some reason, this only got a passing, difficult-to-understand reference at the end of the "Christian" section. While it is true that Christians who are completely ignorant of the Gibeah story (most are) may generally interpret the Sodom story as about consensual homosexual sex (and have had plenty of assistance in doing so), those who are familiar with the Judges story are more likely, in my opinion, to interpret the Sodom story as a rape story, with the same-sex aspect of the rape meant to show a heightened hatred, as anal rape may be more frightening, or considered more taboo (if possible) than vaginal rape. I hope that rather than deleting my edits entirely, those who think they can be improved upon will do so without attempting to discount this position. (RobP)

You will need to cite some secondary reliable sources for this view, a reference to a Bible passage is not enough as that is a primary source, and making conjectures by comparing primary sources constitutes synthesis. Thanks. --Saddhiyama (talk) 08:50, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

References look wrong

It seems that at a certain point some error was introduced in the reference to Strabo and that messed up all the references. I deleted a 'REF' tag and now references look OK, but I see that a verb is missing in the last sentence. It seems that the last sentence should be "Strabo identifies a limestone..." or something like that Mariostorti (talk) 14:02, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

biblical reference

I believe the sites of tall enaam, 31°49'51.75"N 35°39'53.78"E & tal neiraf 31°52'0.35"N 35°37'21.46"E are sodom and gomarah, 4 miles apart twin cities. Near jericho there are two cities whom resemble al mazraa in culture. They are 2 of the 5 arab fifth-race cities in the area above the dead sea.

Faulty References

I'm looking at Records of the Past XI page 115 and there is no such article cited here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.84.74.96 (talk) 18:01, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Stolen?

Part of the introduction is word-for-word what Catholic Encyclopedia has for this subject. Any ideas?

I just looked it up, it's not word for word anymore, but it does seem like someone started the article by simply copying and pasting; which is borderline plagiarism. --Kraftlos (talk) 22:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Däniken

What about Erich von Däniken's view? He was saying something interesting about Soddoma, although not true probably. Shukalo83

"scientific view"

that section is full of religious propaganda. Since when are biblical scholars "scientists?" I'm thinking of revising that.

what if we add another view, called SKEPTICAL VIEW? 02:14, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

well, isn't "rational" = skeptical??? Coontie 04:06, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Too many quotes

RK, while you added some interesting material, but there are way too many quotes for my taste. Also, one of the main problems with the article was that it began in the end. The story of Sodom appeared before Lot's daughters, which I started getting to. Abraham's bargain with God, the war of the five kings, etc. I also have a problem with the abundance of Jewish interpretations, which give an unstated sense of Judaism versus Christianity in interpretting the story of Sodom (even though you did not do so explicitly). I do not think that is the case. It is more a result of interpretations reflecting particular social conditions at the time of their composition, whether by Jews, Christians, or others. I will take a better look at it Sunday night, when I get back. Danny

POV sentence

This sentence sounds like someone's POV:

However, it should be noted that the events that form the basis of this claim only occur in the narrative after God passes sentence on the cities.

The contributor appears to be making his own argument here. I'd prefer to see this POV attributed, but I'm not going to take it out. --Ed Poor

--Marywise2 (talk) 03:04, 12 May 2014 (UTC)== Start is arguably myth ? == The initial sentence, which appears to present fact, falls into the general category of arguable myth/biblical history, no ?

The opener has apparently been revised in reponse to this objection.Wetman 13:49, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Actually I think I might know exactly where sodom.and gomorah are the dead sea is a body of salt water that nothing lives in the human body is 90percent water if the almighty tirned people fleaing into salt maybe that is where the dead sea came from just a thought

This isn't likely as the human body contains approx 0.4% of salt... in other words an average human female would yield approximately a 200g small bag of salt... hardly enough to build a mall mole hill, let alone a pillar. Also, it's not true that nothing lives in the Dead Sea, although mostly barren of life as we know it, small organisms such as bacteria and fungi do exist. The Dead Sea is a landlocked lake which owes its salinity to the high absorption of minerals, which can vary about 30%, depending on floods/rainfall.So its existence isn't a byproduct of divine retribution — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.224.15.251 (talk) 18:33, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

"were generally depraved"

because the inhabitants were generally depraved (Monty Python influence here?) "General" depravity is not a sensible part of "Jewish views" Wetman 13:49, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Carnal knowledge

Can we assume that "know" is used "in the Biblical sense"? -- Error 01:43, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Doubtful - if I recall correctly (and I'm only going on what I've read), the verb "to know" is used may times in the Bible and only rarely explicitly means, and is translated as, "to have sex with". Furthermore in the context of Sodom there's a strong alternative meaning - bear in mind this is an ultra xenophobic city where two strangers arrive and immediately go to the home of the one foreigner. Naturally the mobs would be curious - they would want "to know" who these strangers are and why they're in town. Timrollpickering 00:16, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

See my comment at the bottom of the page. Drostie 06:14, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Syphillis

What's that mention of syphillis? According to our article, there are no evidences of it before 600 BC. -- Error 01:43, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Looks suspiciously like vandalism to me. That sentence doesn't match the rest of that paragraph. --Jarsyl 06:52, 2005 Mar 24 (UTC)

From a Google of the words 'Ba'Hadra' and 'syphilis' this sentence is found on quite a few sites. Some sites say "do not show" and some say "do show". The most obvious reason is a vandal has removed the 'not' on wikipedia. But what is interesting to me is that this sentence is out of place in any form (with or without not). I can't find any other references to Ba'Hadra and skeletons being found there. If anyone can show research into finding skeletons at the site of Ba'Hadra, then this sentence can remain, otherwise it should be removed. 8 June 2005

I have removed the following sentence: "Therefore "Sodomite" is incorrect entirely as a term for homosexuals." Maybe we should not use the word "Trojan" because there is little evidence of "Trojan horse"? This is a word that has been around the English language for centuries, so why the need to question it now? Watcher 10:41, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

What is the source of this section?

What is the source of this section? Reformist Torah Approach with Hebrew translations. Is this supposed to represent the views of Reform Judaism? That subject is covered in-depth, with references, in Jewish views of homosexuality. Wikipedia is not the place for original Biblical analyses, so matter how interesting or defensible. If this a Reform Jewish view (such as from the Plaut commentary on the Torah, by the UAHC) that is accepted within Reform, then we can note this. Is this supposed to be a historical-critical approach? Them why separate it from the above section? Sources? (The Anchor Bible Commentary, and the JPS Torah Commentary, would be a good place to look.) RK 21:03, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)

- I don't know, but it was severely flawed; it was based on a complete textual misunderstanding ("anashim" is actually the plural of "ish" not a different word - it just has a somewhat irregular form.) I gave it an extensive edit to fix it up. I have no idea which denomination it is supposed to represent and I doubt that Reform Judaism has any single "official" textual interpretation.

I think this section would best work as a nondenomination example of what you might notice if you examine the text from a non-"traditional" angle. Perhaps, in this light, it should be merged into one of the previous sections.

The {} sign/s

One or more of the sign/s: {{NPOV}}{{expansion}}{{Cleanup}} placed on this page without any discussion, explanation or reasoning were removed by User:Sam Spade, and I even agree with him! Hopefully there will be further discussion. (The category Category:Bible stories is now up for a vote for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Bible stories) Thank you. IZAK 08:32, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Random musing...

Why isn't Lot condemned for offering his own two virgin daughters to a mob for sex? Just wondering... - Cheryl

It would be better to ask why he isn't condemned for having sex with them himself. Drostie 06:12, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

He's not chastised for offering them to the mob because, as their father, it was in his authority to offer them in such a manner if he saw fit. The fact that he was ruining any marriage prospects for them was his responsibility, and his offering up their virtue for the greater good of the laws of hospitality provided fair justification. As for his committing incest, he was not guilty, since it was at the initiative of the daughters, and they had gotten him drunk so he did not know he was doing it, and could not be regarded as responsible. --Svartalf 10:10, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, he is very much condemned for both acts in the Jewish tradition. Frikle 22:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Really? Never saw any such thing, mind sourcing that comment? --Svartalf 22:35, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I can't remember exactly where it was from. I'll try look for something in the next while. However as far as I see, many Jews would disagree with your above paragraph. Lot is NOT presented as a sympathetic figure in the Tanach. The fact that there is no specific condemnation does not mean anything, the passages around this incident follow the same pattern: no explicit condemnation. Also, where in halakha does a father have authority to give his daughter up for rape? Marriage maybe but not assault. As for the second incident, I'm pretty sure tradition gives this as an example of the horrors of alcoholism and condemns Lot for his negligence. Furthermore, by the second night I'm pretty sure he knew what was going on (according to commentaries).

Anyway the whole evaluation of the incident is not clearcut - and I've seen modern debates about these incidents. Frikle 03:44, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, your assertions surprise me. a) the Tanakh texts do specify he was loved of G*d, since he was saved from the destruction, even despite having offered his daughters to the mob in the presence of the angels; and nothing is said about his losing divine favor after his daughters begat children with him. Now, it's true, I have no access to talmudic sources, but I've never heard of Jewish doctrine being disapproving of Lot's action. --Svartalf 10:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I once heard it suggested that Lot's comment was sarcastic. "You want to abuse my guests? Huh? You might as well rape my virgin daughters!" Which would also explain why the crowd is insulted and angered by the suggestion. Food for thought. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.108.252.139 (talk) 23:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC).

Textual references and translations.

Presentation

First off, I would like to suggest that the quote here come from the NRSV, not the KJV. The NRSV is the current scholarly translation, and Wikipedia is meant to be a scholarly resource. I'll be changing it myself if nobody's responded to this comment within a couple of days; tell me if you're extremely concerned about this.

Secondly, it's academically dishonest to say "In this context, 'know' is a euphemism for sexual intercourse." The Hebrew word used for "know" is indeed used occasionally to refer to carnally knowing your wife. However, this is a broad usage of a primitive root; the exact same construction appears in the following:

Psalm 39:4, "that I may know <03045> (8799) how frail I am,"

Psalm 101:4, "A froward [sic] heart shall depart from me: I will not know <03045> (8799) a wicked person" (which is explicitly not talking about sex),

Daniel 9:25, "Know <03045> (8799) therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time."

Jer 31:34, "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know <03045> (8798) the LORD : for they shall all know <03045> (8799) me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

(Many of these come from the KJV because I'm intellectually lazy at the moment.)

... the list can go on and on. See this Google search for as many examples as you want.

Indeed, the specificness of the construction isn't particularly important (that is, you can ignore the (8799) part), because not all passages talking about sex use (8799)

Gen 4:1, "And Adam knew <03045> (8804) <0853> Eve."

So, I would challenge that statement as not being particularly NPOV given the textual data. Moreover, we have reason to think that this is not explicit, because the different Rabbis cited in the rest of the article never took it that way. These are people fluent in Hebrew who did not substantiate this interpretation.

I think we can delete that parenthetical comment safely, as it is neither factual nor NPOV.

I ask that replies to this Talk comment come in subsection form (see the first line of this section) so that it's clear to readers when someone else is speaking.

.Drostie 06:10, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I prefers to use NKJV than NRSV as NRSV is not listed in Biblegateway.com the article is using, and NRSV is not commonly used. Habibullah rRahman (talk) 06:25, 28 October 2010 (UTC) 27 October 2010

Reading some discussions, it seems that ASV is a Bible of choice wherever the word "LORD" is quoted as ASV uses "Jehovah." Do you know any other Bible using the word Jehovah or Yehovah? By using ASV, almost all readers will immediately undertand that Jehovah God appearead in person to Abraham and walked with Abraham (Genesis 18), and Jehovah in person destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah from Jehovah out of the heavens (Genesis 19:24). Such clarity will make this Wikipedia articles so much better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Habibullah rRahman (talk • contribs) 12:36, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Presense of Sulphur

Can someone add some "quick link" (As in... a link to an accredited article from a reputable site) confirming the "Sulphur from Earthquake" theory?

I'd like to add that followed a link from Google searching for "evidence of Soddom and Gomorrah" (not that exact string, however) and came accross this site with photographs of the sulphur deposits that appear to be circular in shape, thus backing up the claims that God really did "rain fire" down on the cities. I'm presently unable to do this, so can someone find the site with this info on? I remember it having a pale-blue (but not cyan) background with a reference to a comic-book on it.

A quick search turns out two bible-archaeology pages with photographic and some scientific evidence. [2] and [3]

I really wouldn't trust either of those pages. Ron Wyatt is a known fraud, and the other site could have easily been faked as well, and clearly has a religious agenda. I've done several google searches and all have failed to find any neutral sites that mention the sulfur. Smells like like bullshit to me.

Forget about Wyatt and that other site. A video is worth a thousand pictures: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwTVFk1HK3Y&feature=related

DavidPesta (talk) 20:43, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Apparently the "sulfur balls" are nothing special; see this page [4]. Pfalstad 00:57, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

No. The "sulfer balls" are a big deal, and they were found. I do not agree with Ron Wyatt, but do not throw out the baby with the bath water. [5]

I don't get it. That article seems to acknowledge that the earthquake theory is very plausible (and I would argue far more plausible than the fireballs from God theory), but still says it must have been fireballs from God.

Lot and his daughters

The bible says that his daughters got him drunk to have intercourse, and he was unaware of what was happening so this statement: "...the incident where Lot's daughters have sex with their father soon after they escape the city, means that this is not a tale of sexual morality, but a condemnation of rape..." seems to overlook the context of the situation.

Even so, how is rape not about sexual morality? You seem to overlook the obvious.Boscobites (talk) 14:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Jehovah condones neither incest nor drunkenness. (Leviticus 18:6, 7, 29; 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10) Lot actually deplored the “lawless deeds” of Sodom’s inhabitants. (2 Peter 2:6-8) The very fact that Lot’s daughters got him intoxicated suggests that they realized that he would not consent to having sexual relations with them while he was sober. But as aliens in the land, his daughters felt that this was the only way to prevent the extinction of Lot’s family. The account is in the Bible to reveal the relationship of the Moabites (through Moab) and the Ammonites (through Benammi) to Abraham’s descendants, the Israelites. Why, then, is Lot called a “righteous man,” at 2 Peter 2:8? Not because God approved of his getting drunk, nor because God approved of incest. God did not approve such conduct. But it should be noted that there is nothing in the record to indicate that Lot was a habitual drunkard, nor was he habitually involved in acts of incest. His reputation was that of a “righteous man,” and this reputation he had with God, who examines the heart. Lot deplored the “lawless deeds” of the people of Sodom. And, evidently, for the Examiner of hearts to view him as righteous, Lot must also have grieved over the wrong conduct in which he himself got involved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.55.213 (talk) 23:02, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Historical Sodom?

Does anyone have any information on the archaeological evidence for the existence of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and their locations?

Martin.

There are NO proofs and NO findings by archeology scientists that towns Sodom or Gomorrah even ever existed. This remark must be added to the article in the first place above religious talking. Westsomething (talk) 21:45, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

See the links above under "Presense of Sulphur"

Just found a link to an archaeological dig newsletter which claims that Bab edh-Dhra is unlikely to be the historical site of Sodom since it was destroyed way before Abraham and Lot were even born. It claims another site, Tall el-Hammam, is a more likely location of Sodom. [6]

Reply: That seems like a flimsy basis on which to throw out the Bab edh-Dhra theory. How can they even know for certain when Abraham and Lot were born in order to use those dates as proof?

Andy R.

Reply: There is enough consensus that Abraham and Lot were born/alive during the Middle Bronze Age that it has become a widely accepted notion among biblical scholars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.250.252.180 (talk) 21:13, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

There used to also be enough consensus that the world was flat. Just sayin.ТнеСупԁісате.сом (talk) 03:46, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

last word?

I'd be careful about calling a 2003 document a consensus as if it would endure to the end of time. The number of claims that no proof now means no proof would ever be found are legion. You should rather say something like the latest statement, but only if it really is the latest statement as of 2010. 4.249.63.11 (talk) 00:02, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The possibility that those cities don't exist

Why isn't the article entertaining the possibility that those cities don't exist, or are "composite events" based on the story destruction of many cities

The article gives this or that possible candidate but the Historicity section doesn't end with "Those cities might not have even existed"

This makes sense because it lets the story be a more effective narrative and helps better drive home the point that disobeying religious officials (even small commands like don't look back or you will turn into salt !) will get you some hardcore retribution

the exaggerated account of how complete the destruction of the cities lets you know that "god" doesn't fuck around (in other words religious authority giving you this story, you do what they say because decide "what god says")

Gomorrah

What is the sin of Gomorrah? The Sodomites are getting all the fame! -- Unknown

Seriously... there is a statement at the beginning of the article, explicitly stating that (in relation to the cities):

Since then, their names are synonymous with impenitent sin

Yet, there is absolutely no reference as to what sin "Gomorrah" is synonymous to. If there is a sin that Gomorrah is synonymous to, it should be added, otherwise this statement should be altered not to be confusing. --89.212.75.6 17:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, what did Gomorrah ever do to deserve destruction? Mathwhiz90601 04:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Religioustolerance.org

This article uses the religious tolerancewebsite as either a reference or a link. Please see the discussion on Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org and Wikipedia:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org as to whether Wikipedia should cite the religioustolerance.org website, jguk 14:09, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia should not. Religioustolerance.org is agenda driven, but, of course, when you realize that people are attempting to split hairs and pose everything-but-the-kitchen-sink arguments to change the well known meaning of this passage when other passages in the Bible clearly state, without ambiguity, exactly what is and is not sexually moral, you will soon realize to argue with such types is almost pointless and that you most likely have much better uses for your time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boscobites (talk • contribs) 14:22, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

From what I read in that link, it appears that the concensus was that while it is a fairly popular and mainstream site, that it should probably be used as commentary and not as a primary source. So using it as an external link would be just fine in this case. --Kraftlos (talk) 23:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Using the term Homosexual is an anachronism

I my opinion it is illogical to interpret any Biblical verse or commentary as directly related to homosexuality. The term itself was invented in the 19th century in Germany to tag a psychological behavior, regarded as a mental illness. The meaning of the term has shifted from a behavioral point of view to one of identity in the twentieth century (in western parts of the world).

The term "homosexual" is an anachronism? LOL Just because they used different words in 2000 BC? It's certainly not an anachronism today, the word is in common usage. Would it be less of an anachronism to use some comparable 2nd millennium term? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 13:32, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

No, the concept of being homosexual did not exist in 2000 BC. An ACT could be homosexual, but homosexuality in the sense of sexual orientation did not exist. There is no comparable term.

WE have created the concept of BEING and AFFIRMING homosexual acts, but whether or not you see a delineation between 'being' and 'doing' is your choice and, most importantly, missing the point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boscobites (talk • contribs) 14:31, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, it is not missing the point because early translations do not find fault with homosexual acts unless done for the benefit of a competing god. 64.31.174.130 (talk) MRM 9/16/2008

Bosco, you are assuming that because humans during that time period did not have a noun to describe a homosexual, the acts they committed lacked an awareness of their activity. You are also assuming that during that time there were not people who exclusively engaged in homosexual acts. Please evidence these assumptions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.186.179.57 (talk) 06:30, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Not only that, but the entire reason homosexuality was a sin, is that in the Old Testament/TORAH times, they believed that acts like this could pollute the Messianic Line. If the sons of the House of David become homosexual, then that could prevent the Messiah from returning. That is the reason homosexuality is a sin. ТнеСупԁісате.сом (talk) 03:54, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

The visitors' bed

One example is the story of the "bed" that guests to Sodom were forced to sleep in: if they were too short they were stretched to fit it, and if they were too tall, they were cut up.

Was this copied from the Procrustes story in Greek mythology, or was this a widespread myth amongst the eastern Mediterranean cultures? 66.245.84.235 07:24, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

The destroying angels

At the end of Genesis 18, Abraham's encounter is with "three men". In the opening of Gen. 19, "two angels" arrive at Lot's house. Given that the three men at Abraham's are angels, what happened to the third by the time they arrived at Lot's? Was the third one Yahweh Himself? I've always wondered about that... Kirkesque 04:16, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

From Rashi himself:

18.2 and behold, three men One to bring the news [of Isaac’s birth] to Sarah, and one to overturn Sodom, and one to heal Abraham, for one angel does not perform two errands (Gen. Rabbah 50:2). You should know that [this is true] because throughout the entire chapter, Scripture mentions them in the plural, e.g., (below verse 8): “and they ate” ; (ibid. verse 9): “and they said to him.” Concerning the announcement, however, it says (ibid. verse 10): “And he said: I will surely return to you.” And concerning the overturning of Sodom, it says (below 19:22): “For I will not be able to do anything” ; (ibid. verse 21): “I will not overturn” (Gen. Rabbah 50:11). And Raphael, who healed Abraham, went from there to save Lot. This is what is stated:“And it came to pass when they took them outside, that he [the angel] said, ‘Flee for your life.’” You learn that only one acted as a deliverer.

19.1 the…angels But elsewhere (18:2) Scripture calls them men! When the Shechinah was with them, it calls them men. Another explanation: In connection with Abraham, whose power was great, and the angels were as frequently with him as men, it calls them men, but in connection with Lot, it calls them angels. — [from Gen. Rabbah 52; Tan. Buber, Vayera 20] SF2K1

You are correct: one of the 3 persons are YeVovaH God Himself in person. FYI: Hebrew does not have a “J” sound. Use American Standard Version translation at Biblegateway.com to understand it clearly.

“And Jehovah appeared unto him by the oaks of Mamre … And the men turned from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before Jehovah … And he said, I will not destroy it for the ten's sake. And Jehovah went his way … And the two angels came to Sodom … Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven” (Genesis 18:1, 22, 32-33; 19:1, 24, ASV translation). Thus not the 3 angels, but YeHoVaH in person destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah from JeHoVaH out of heaven.

According to Jude 4-7 (Use English Standard Version at biblegateway.com for clearest meaning), Jesus brought the Jews out of Egypt and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah). Habibullah rRahman (talk) 13:13, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

This article will be so much clearer when we use ASV as readers will immediate know that the LORD in person was YeHoVaH Himself. Habibullah rRahman (talk) 12:24, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Possible?

Could the Fire and Brimstone be the Biblical interpertation of a nuclear explosion above Sodom? An aerial deliveration of devistation could be a result of extraterrestrial, time travelers, anything. If you even remotely belive, for a moment, that extraterrestrials or time travelers could possibly exist, then would this be logical? The descriptions of the damage done fits the description of a nuclear attack, but no radiation or fallout is mentioned. - 70.109.72.185 23:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

That's a violation of Occam's Razor. A more plausable explanation would be a city-busting meteorite. Has that theory ever been advanced by anyone? 74.71.238.25 03:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

A far more plausible explaination would be a volcanic erupion of some sort. Brimstone is sulfer.--Phiddipus 20:46, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I would dispute the volcanic explanation: "Considering its supernatural origin, one would expect to find unique characteristics in such sulfur, and this is indeed the case. Its composition reveals lengthy exposure to high temperatures. Sulfur found in geothermal regions is invariably the "rhombic" form, evident from it's familiar bright yellow colour.

By contrast, the brimstone from these Dead Sea sites is the pale white "monoclinic" form. Sulphur changes to this form when exposed to high temperatures for an extended period of time, as would have been the case.. X-ray Fluorescence Semiquant analysis and other tests reveal the sulfur balls to be up to 98.4% pure sulphur, significantly more pure than naturally occurring sulphur.

The sulfur balls have been found at all five destroyed cities, and although numerous geologists have been consulted, no other examples of naturally occurring sulfur is found anywhere on earth that remotely resembles the form found at these sites."

And elsewhere on the same site (http://users.netconnect.com.au/~leedas/sodomgom.html): "Inside Pompeii, paintings in pristine condition can still be seen on the walls of the houses. People and animals buried during Pompeii's destruction have been unearthed as empty cavities. By contrast, everything at the Sodom & Gomorrah sites have been turned totally to ash. A skeleton found by Ron Wyatt in one of the lost cities still had human form but was composed of ash. Even the marrow, visible in the bones, was totally turned to ash.

The cities were built largely of limestone, and when limestone is incinerated with sulphur, it produces calcium sulphate ash. Analysis of the remains at Sodom & Gomorrah reveals it is very clean calcium sulphate, with virtually no trace elements. The fact that few trace elements remain is indicative of intense, fierce heat, enough to break down entire limestone buildings and vaporise all other minerals. Volcanism does not produce this kind of clean ash."

What do you say to that? (sorry for the length--but I think it's worth it for the sake of discussion and learning) --Sunshine, on 16th March, 2008.

Here is a new story concerning the "explosive asteroid" theory: Asteroid Destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Perhaps there should be a section concerning the debates as to how it was destroyed, if there is enough literature on the topic. BobertWABC (talk) 16:46, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

An asteroid hitting the Earth just a few thousand years ago would have left an enormous crater and unmistakable evidence. It would have also destroyed numerous other cities in the region. But there is another possibility, what if the story is just a story told to children to teach them about hospitality; I am not saying that the bible isn't the truth, I am saying that the book of genesis is mostly traditional Hebrew moral fables recorded by Moses, i.e. the truth is in the lesson, not the facts--Phiddipus (talk) 18:38, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

According to the article, the scientists believe from interpretation of the planisphere that the asteroid would have hit in Austria at a place where there are unexplained geological features consistent with an impact. The question was not about whether or not the story is true, but whether there should be a section (and if there is enough literature to create a section) about possible explanations for the event assuming it were true. BobertWABC (talk) 14:18, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, a single iron asteroid would indeed leave a giant crater. But there are "dirtball" (for want of a better word) type of asteroids that are not giant solid rocks. These would give an "airburst" effect, creating fire over a large area and not leaving much evidence that would survive thousands of years. And carbonaceous chondrite types of meteorites, which are the survivors of such asteroids, do indeed have a sulphurous smell. But that of course is OR. The bottom line is that an asteroid is indeed a credible source of "fire and brimstone from heaven". Old_Wombat (talk) 13:01, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

You can't have it both ways; you can't have the cities be destroyed by the asteroid, and also have it been a type that doesn't leave evidence. If it could have destroyed the cities, it would leave the sort of evidence that meteor impacts leave. If it didn't leave the evidence that impacts leave, then it didn't destroy the cities. The forces of destruction that destroy the city are the same forces that leave the impact evidence.71.63.160.210 (talk) 21:46, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

I believe you are wrong. If you read about the Tunguska event, it was an asteroid which flattened an estimated 80 million trees over an area of 2,150 km^2; however, no impact crater has ever been found. Furthermore, already now, barely more than 100 years later, scarcely any evidence can be found anymore. 137.226.152.81 (talk) 15:37, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

"Chemical analysis of peat bogs from the area also revealed numerous anomalies considered consistent with an impact event. The isotopic signatures of carbon, hydrogen, and nitrogen at the layer of the bogs corresponding to 1908 were found to be inconsistent with the isotopic ratios measured in the adjacent layers, and this abnormality was not found in bogs located outside the area." In any case, since this talk page is not a WP:FORUM, reliable sources are needed to support the impact speculation for the article to be able to mention it (WP:RS, WP:CITE). —PaleoNeonate – 04:40, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Dead link(s)

The link to a webpage that presumable described "strange flesh" interpretations is dead: http://leesbiblepgs.topcities.com/Dictionary.html

Virgin Sacrifice

The article states that virgin sacrifices were common in Sodom, and suggests that Lot offered his daughters for such a purpose... This does not explain how they would have made a suitable substitute for the angels, unless the Sodomite crowd wanted to sacrifice them to the idols rather than simply rape them. I just wonder : how do we know that the Sodomites did practice human (and more specifically : virgin) sacrifices? I may have misread my bible, or just be victim from a crappy translation, but I did not see any mention of human sacrifice in connection with Sodom. --Svartalf 09:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I think this article is full of religion anti-homosexual propaganda without considering any actual valid source.

This article is completely theological, so they have the right to avoid any basis of fact, except the bible, so of course it is full of propoganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.188.144.21 (talk) 00:09, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Appropriate Statement:

It was written in the article that "A similar event is recorded in the Judges 19:20-22, this time involving the town of Gibeah. This suggests that the occurrences in Sodom were not unique."

The only problem I see with this statement is that most of the bible, especially the Old Testament, has a number of stories that are reiterated again and again in a slightly different (or sometimes) completely different light in an effort to prove a point. Many of these stories have been accepted by biblical historians and archaeologists as being written backwards into the bible as a way of explaining why something happened in their contemporary day.

Thoughts about elaborating on that topic?

Ron Wyatt's stuff

someone have something to say about it? if you find something out thats conclusive - yes.. or no.. POST IT HERE!!! (or fix the main page)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! someone provide some insight.. are there really balls of sulfur? are there really no volcanos nearby? is there really evidence of cities at this place? things incinerated to insane temps?

Baucis and Philemon

Are there any links between the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and Baucis and Philemon? --67.68.29.215 00:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

i removed the line saying sodom means "burnt" and gamohora means "heap"

i speak hebrew very well and this is just false sodom has no meaning besides sodom and gamohora isnt used without sodom

There are lots of words in ancient Hebrew without modern parallels. To understand them, you look at a concordance or compare cognates from other ancient Semitic texts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.108.252.139 (talk) 23:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC).

Reformists Torah section

I found problem with this section in its presentation of information. I think the information is good on the reformist view, but its obviously written by a reformed and almost in the style of a sermon, particularly the use of "we", etc. I suggest a revision to a more objective presentation of the section. Merely stylistically, not in regards to information.

By all means do so. Wikipedia articles shouldn't be in "we" form anyway. --Kraftlos (talk) 18:48, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Film section

The intro to the section talks about film portrayals of the Biblical story. Sodom and Gomorrah: The Movie isn't one of those. It's a contemporary film about a Christian man struggling with homosexuality. Obviously the title was chosen for the association with the cities' putative sin, but that's a pretty tenuous connection.

I fail to see what a video game weapon that happened to borrow the names of the cities has to do with the article. If we were to drag in every pop-culture mention of Sodom and/or Gomorrah, it would comprise the bulk of the article. It's not a "Film" in any event. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Christian Commentary: large section quoted verbatim

The section "Christian Commentary" consists entirely of a passage quoted from a 1706 book by somebody called Matthew Henry. The book must be in the public domain, but isn't it still inappropriate to crib so totally from a single source? DanB†DanD 01:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

It should go less because of the cribbing -- many Wikipedia articles began as imports of the old Encyclopedia Britannica -- but because it only presents one POV and badly unbalances the article. TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Removed. 68.39.174.238 21:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Root

Why would gh m r be the root for Gomorrah when in its original form there is no g or h in the beginning? The correct spelling is ayin-mem-vav-resh-heh. It would seem to have a relation to the Amori.

Huh? Gomorrah is an anglicized name. My text says `Amorah. Strong's definition I'm not really good with Hebrew, but I'm pretty sure that the translators and scholars would have picked up on this if it were an obvious mistake like that. --Kraftlos (talk) 18:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Second paragraph

"God's just wrath".. is that POV? I wouldn't say that destroying an entire city is a just act JayKeaton 09:14, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Quite a few people today wouldn't say so either, then there has also been the view that true "justice" is defined by God as Judge, and not man. But because these are both significant POVs, it would probably be more neutral to simply remove the word 'just'. I don't know if any reliable sources have ever speculated on what they think might have been a more just or fitting punishment for the actions of the Sodomites. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:43, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

A more fitting punishment would be for them to lose their sex drives if they were sexual deviants. It seems incredibly POV to say that such a punishment was justified, it reads more like an activist sermon; "And it was-ah Jees'us-ahs just wrath that reigned down upon them, can I get a hallelujah brothers!". "Grandiose punishment" or "colossal punishment" seems to actually describe the nature of the act, without seemingly being purely POV for the sake of POV JayKeaton 18:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

But I think you're missing the point. The context is "a proverbial manifestation of..." For those who would use the story proverbially, it would be a manifestation of "God's just wrath." I don't the article is necessarily taking a stance on the justice of the act by stating (factually, I might add) that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah has become or is sometimes seen a "proverbial manifestation of God's just wrath." But that's just my opinion. Just keep in mind that the article was merely explaining how certain people interpret the act (and how the Bible quite obviously interprets it). It's proffering one world view among many. And the sentence has now lost its purpose--which was that of explaining how the story is often viewed in today's culture. You've castrated the poor sentence. (just my opinion)

Surely it's your point of view that destroying two cities isn't just? Given none of us were there, I don't think any modern person can genuinely say it wasn't just, as we have very little idea what people in those cities were doing. Just because 21st Century Westerners have the internet doesn't make us any wiser than people in the past! Tispower (talk) 18:24, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Nuclear War

From the Sumerian bible is'nt Sodom and Gomorrah a nuclear war. The bible is kind of a rip off from the Sumerian bible.

The Sumerians had nothing like a Bible, and the story of Sodom and Gomorrah appears nowhere in their extant myths. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:23, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

You don't need nuclear bombs to have the effects of a nuclear war. A good strike by a large enough meteor (or stream of meteors) or comet will produce the same effect. Just think of what would have happened if Tunguska had been New York City. If looking for links to other myths and legends (particularly in discussing the question of historicity), a good place might be to seek out (independent) accounts that also make mention of what appear to be comet or meteor strikes, like the "wayward sun" in Phaeton. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.128.235.10 (talk) 00:16, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Common Thread

As in so many like discussions, the common thread continues to be individual interpretation. Possibly to put each interpreter in his/her own comfort zone by shoring up that which he/she chooses to believe? In this case pro/con homosexuality. As with so many bible discussions each person's interpretation is designed to neatly fit their desired conclusion. Notably absent is the design and role of NATURE. Perhaps the bible's stories, fables, parables and conflicting interpretations are by design or ignorance of the authors. Within this discussion we have conflicting interpretations of two cities that may or may not have existed; may or may not have been destroyed due to immoral values; may or may not have involved a technology that many believe is a 19th century invention. All bypass the obvious Natural sexual intent, BY DESIGN, of the human species, be we designed by creationism or evolution. Man and woman are design to intercourse with one another, as opposed to same sex intercourse, for the purpose of recreating and survival. Clearly same sex intercourse is contrary to this design and thus a manmade deviation from sexual purpose be the cause of homosexuality be biological or mental, voluntary or involuntary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.200.144.42 (talk) 06:54, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

Since this page is not for spouting off our personal opinions, but for discussing edits to the article, your proposed edit to the article in consequence of the above is what? TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:23, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Etymological Inconsistency

The meanings attributed to the names 'Sodom' and 'Gomorrah' are inconsistent. Note the introductory paragraph vis a vis the Historicity section.

Vacancy 18:17, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Christian views section vandalized?

I noticed the Christian Views looked oddly too short as I remember it was larger before.. found in the edit history that someone removed a huge chunk of it on 10/23/07.. most of it was showing the other interpretation than just the typical evangelical one... this person didn't even have an account which makes it slightly more suspicious. I don't want to undo it without discussion though because it's been two months and no one else has noticed this. There is no "prevailing explanation" among all Christians.. so this is definitely POV & requires the other interpretation, which was removed, to maintain NPOV. Petrichor (talk) 05:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I can't say I've done a survey or anything, but the 'prevailing explanation' described is not one that I have observed amongst Christians, including ministers, that I have been exposed to. WotherspoonSmith (talk) 12:58, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Since there appears to be no contention I have put it back to its original state per Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Inhospitality as the sin of Sodom is a common thread in biblical scholarship and also has grounding in the Bible, see Ezekiel 16:49-50. Petrichor (talk) 22:27, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

First off, if you're going to claim there are two 'prevailing' views, you should at least be accurate. The view that was relegated below the so-called hospitality view IS the prevailing view, like it or not. Second, the inclusion of "informed by certain interpretations of other Biblical texts" in the second suggests that this is just a result of a certain view point, thus it is not "factual" and or accepted. The absence of this same sentence in what was labeled here as the first view point then suggest that it is more credible than the "second" view point. The exhaustive explanation of the "hospitality" view (complete with further explanatory links) and the relative diminutive explanation of the homosexual view suggests the writer to be heavily biased, or at the very least woefully uninformed. Hospitality is most certainly a recurrent theme in the Bible, however it in no way is represented here. Furthermore, as it is currently written, it makes no sense:

The Biblical text itself seems to suggest that the sin is based in part on inhospitality to some (if not a major) extent (although traditionally, the reason promulgated for the punishment has been focused on sexual immorality and not assault):

1]Why is the so-called "traditional" explanation a note at the end of the sentence? If its TWO prevailing view points, why would one be mentioned as if it were a foot note?
2]So one of the viewpoints is "traditional." Whats the other one?
3]The reason for what is referred to as the "homosexual" viewpoint isn't even mentioned (which is yet more evidence of the authors willful misrepresentation or, hopefully, accidental negligence; however I suspect the former as it is not difficult to find such information)
4]The writer first talks about "inhospitality" then notes "assault?"
5]It makes no sense to interweave ones own views on homosexuality into this Biblical story as there are far more, and rather blunt, examples of what the Christian view of homosexuality is:

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

— Corinthians 6:9-11

In any event, what should be plainly noted is the reasoning behind the "homosexual" viewpoint. There isn't even any mention of homosexuality, just a suspiciously vague mention of "sexual immorality" when in fact Genesis 19:4-5 notes exactly the kind of "sexual immorality" present:

Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

— Genesis 19:4-5

This is a place for information, not misinformation. Let us be mature and professional with the information. As such, I think the "second" view point should be on the top, and the suggestive language should be revised --Boscobites (talk) 20:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree, it seems like someone is trying to push a specific Christian view because they're afraid the other one is offensive or they don't agree with it. I'm not sure that it IS in fact the prevailing view that inhospitality was the sin, I'd hardly say that the second view is in the minority. I think the wording now seems a bit more neutral, still I think both views need some more verifiable sources. --Kraftlos (talk) 21:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Kraftlos. And the Bible makes it no secret that the sin for which God punished the cities was homosexuality. The angels visited the city to "see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me." And what the found was that the men of the city wanted to have sex with them. And that's certaily the traditional Christian interpretation--hence the equivalence of "sodomy" and "homosexuality." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.182.95 (talk) 17:25, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Since we seem to have a consensus, I'm going to re-write the section. I'm going to place the so called "traditional view first", using reputable commentaries as sources (as it is, the section barely has any sources). In order to maintain NPOV, this is no longer going to focus on a specific sin that caused the city to be destroyed since the passage doesn't say it was destroyed for any particular sin. Homosexuality and inhospitality have to be mentioned of course, but the purpose of a Christian view is not to do original writing and to speculate as to what particular sin was being punished here, but to describe the existing Christian interpretation and what makes it specifically different to say the Jewish interpretation. So just a warning, this entire section is going to be changed. No reverts without discussing it here, Thank you. --Kraftlos (talk) 05:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Just for clarification, I don't think that the city was destroyed just for homosexuality or for inhospitality or any other sin. It seems apparent that the city has simply reached a critical mass of sin. I'm not sure if I was clear on that. However I also want to be clear that the Pentatuch (the first five books of the Bible) is not at all unclear in saying that homosexuality is a sin. I think people were trying to engineer this passage to say the opposite, which would not be supported by the context. --Kraftlos (talk) 18:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Recent claim about an asteroid

Can't be in the article, but anyone interested might want to read "A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels Impact? Almost Certainly Not…"Doug Weller (talk) 11:50, 4 April 2008 (UTC)]

Which, by the way, means that the book can't be used as a reference on Wikipedia, as it is self-published. Funny.Doug Weller (talk) 21:16, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Their book being self-published is quite true. The printer "Writersprintshop" advertises itself as being "designed to support self-publishers". It is curious that a few web pages and press releases indicate that it was published by an apparently nonexistent publisher called "Aclin Academic".Paul H. (talk) 02:45, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I was watching a documentry on Discovery Knowledge on boxing bay (2009) called Biblical Mysteries Explained. One episode dealth with Sodom and what may have happened. They came to a conclusion that Sumerian astronomers tracked a comet. This comet landed Kofels. The reason it didn't make a Roland Emerich esque crater is because it burned up in the atmosphere like in Tunguska. Evidence was apparently found worldwide and caused quite a change in the climate. They found a city near the dead sea with many dead and evidence of scorching. They claimed it a possibility that some of the debris thrown into the atmosphere could have fallen in teh area. They also claimed that the Hebrew description of what happened fits exactly with the description of that kind of event. I'm not christian but did find it very intersting. Wouldn't mind if someone can find out if there is anything to this. ((an intersting series that raises some good points)) DarkMithras 27th december 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.169.178.118 (talk) 11:18, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

The proposed impact event that this documentary refers to is the Köfels Impact event initially propose by the Austrian scientist Franz Eduard Suess in 1936 and later revived by Kristan-Tollmann and Tollmann (1994) as discussed in Tollmann's hypothetical bolide. Later, Allan Bond self-published a book, Bond and Hempsell (2008), in which he argued that this propose impact actually occurred 3150 BCE, not 7640 BCE, and connected it with Sodom and Gomorrah. As discussed in Deutsch et al. (1994), Tollmann's hypothetical bolide, "A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels Impact? Almost Certainly Not…", there are innumerable factual and physical problems with the arguments made by E. Kristan-Tollmann and A. Tollmann and Allan Bond and M. Hempsell in their books and papers for their hypothesized Köfels Impact event. It remains to be documented that the description of what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah matches in any meaningful way the actual physical consequences of any asteroid impact and that any of the many prehistoric cities in the Middle East known to have suffered catastrophic fires can be confidently attributed to an extraterrestrial impact of any sort.

The best that I can tell, the starting point for the Köfels Impact event hypothesis was the discovery of natural glass in the Köfels landslide deposits. At that time, it was argued that the landslide was impact related because natural glass was only known to be either created volcanic or extraterrestrial impact processes and the there was clearly no evidence of volcanic activity associated with the Köfels landslide. However, since that time, natural glass generated by catastrophic landslides, called "frictionite", has been found associated with similar catastrophic landslides elsewhere in world. Still, the idea that the Köfels landslide is of extraterrestrial impact origin is recycled in catastrophist literature and documentaries despite the lack of physical evidence supporting this idea and physically implausible nature of the processes and mechanics that have been proposed for such an event. In my opinion, this is part of extraterrestrial impact bandwagon that seems to be fashionable in science as discussed by Reimond (2007) and in popular documentaries.

References cited:

Bond, A. and M. Hempsell, 2008, A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels' Impact Event , WritersPrintshop, London, United Kingdom. 128 pp. ISBN 1904623646

Deutsch, A., C. Koeberl, J.D. Blum, B.M. French, B.P. Glass, R. Grieve, P. Horn, E.K. Jessberger, G. Kurat, W.U. Reimold, J. Smit, D. stoffler, and S.R. Taylor, 1994, The impact-flood connection: Does it exist? Terra Nova. v. 6, pp. 644-650.

Kristan-Tollmann, E. and A. Tollmann, 1994, The youngest big impact on Earth deduced from geological and historical evidence. Terra Nova. v. 6, no. 2, pp. 209-217.

Reimond, W.U., 2007, The Impact Crater Bandwagon (Some problems with the terrestrial impact cratering record) The Impact Crater Bandwagon (Some problems with the terrestrial impact cratering record) Meteoritics & Planetary Science. v. 42, no. 9, pp. 1467–1472.Paul H. (talk) 18:52, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

interesting. Thanks for the links ((feel free to delete this, I just thought I'd give thanks)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.169.178.118 (talk) 15:21, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Half a Mile? Really?

Now, I'm not exactly a specialist, but I'm under the impression that an asteroid "over half a mile wide" is a dinosaur killing, planet busting sort of thing. Not "Oops, caused a nasty landslide, hope there isn't a city at the bottom of this mountain". 80.192.22.220 (talk) 22:30, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

If you want to determine what sort of damage that an asteroid 0.5 mile (0.8 km) in diameter will do, go to Earth Impact Effects Program. For example, a stony (density of 3000 kg/m3) asteroid 0.5 mile (0.8 km) in diameter impacting in crystalline rock at a 6 degree angle will have an impact energy of 9,000 MegaTons and create a final crater that is 1.11 miles miles (1.78 km) in diameter. If this asteroid consists of iron (density of 8000 kg/m3), the impact energy will be 70,000 MegaTons and the final crater will be 4.95 miles (7.97 km) in diameter. You can also calculate what the effects of an impact will be at a distance of 1800 miles, which is the distance between Kofels and Israel, away from the point of impact.

Can we leave the Köfels thing out of this article? Like, completely? It's silly, unnotable, and doesn't hold any interest to the topic of Sodom and Gomorrah. It can be discussed, for better or worse, at the Alan Bond (rocket developer) article. dab (𒁳) 08:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's notable only by being included in one television program that took great pains to advocate for the theory without any shred of meteoric debris, shocked quartz, microscopic spherules, microscopic diamonds, even some ash cloud residue or any other thing left circulating the atmosphere after a major impact event. So, people come here to see if the theory is mentioned, then bring it up on the talk page.Wzrd1 (talk) 01:15, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Television programs do not advocate for historical or academic theories, they advocate only for ratings.71.63.160.210 (talk) 21:59, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

I am 7 years late to this discussion, but I will just add that extinction level events should be expected from asteroids 2+ km in diameter. Asteroids ~0.5 km in diameter can be very bad, but would be more of a country killer depending on speed, mass/density, entry angle, and location. Airburst events like Tunguska event with a stony rubble pile 30-50 meters in diameter would be more of what I would expect to wipe-out the local buildings and cities of several thousands years ago. -- Kheider (talk) 18:15, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Clarification Needed

I've just read the article, and I don't know what the sentence "Lut is also in Islam a revered Prophet and the accusations against him in Christian literature considered a fabrication." is referring to. Could someone who does know please clarify this?

this is in reference to Lot inpregnating his daughters once out of sodom.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.188.144.21 (talk) 00:17, 5 February 2010 (UTC) 

The Lyre of Orpheus

Nothing in the article about the similarity between the story of Lot and the legend of Orpheus and Eurydice?

Eurydice died. Orpheus - who could play his lyre so beautifully rocks rolled towards him and trees uprooted themselves to walk closer - crossed the Styx and charmed Hades and Persephone with his music. Hades returned Eurydice to him, but told them on their journey out of Hades they must never look back - they walked from Hades, climbing upwards, came to the very exit - and Orpheus turned to speak to his wife - and in doing so looked back. She disappeared from him, returned to Hades.

Toby Douglass (talk) 12:30, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The Battle of the Kings

Have just scanned this article and I see no mention of the events of Genesis 14, which would seem to be relevent to this article. I have just created the article Battle of the Vale of Siddim, so wouldn't expect any great detail here, but thought that a link and a brief mention might be appropriate.--FimusTauri (talk) 11:51, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

FT, a link in the See Also is fine, but I honestly can't see the relevance of this to the story of S&G. PiCo (talk) 05:46, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

women as property

"Another cultural aspect which is noted is that in these civilisations, men were held in a much higher regard than women, as in Greece women were often seen as little more than property.. It is therefore argued that to demand not only a guest, but a male guest, be violated against his will, would be seen as more of a crime than to allow women to be used to save the guest. However, noted Christian commentators see Lot's offer being one of substitute bodies for sex, though his hasty attempt to a solution was hardly excusable."

questionable interpretation, no backup evidence

References

Homosexual rape ???

"The 7th sura, Al-A'raf, confirms that like the biblical account, the Islamic Sodom and Gomorrah is referring to homosexuality and specifically homosexual rape."

If one reads the surate (if possible in arabic in order to avoid personnal interpretations), he'll see no reference to " gay rape" but only to "regular" homosexuality. This surate only states that Islam condemns homosexuality. Everybody is entitled to his opinion about this matter but let's not distort the scripturesMitch1981 (talk) 08:11, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with your point of not distorting scripture. This will also help: use the clearest scripture translation that accurately transmits the message of the original text. Habibullah rRahman (talk) 12:49, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

What about the kids?

The article talks about a city Sodom that there people were homosexual .. are this mean that the men were gays and The women were lesbains? ok, but what about the kids .. why God kill them ? are the city were contain only men? the article not mention any thing about the women and kids. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.188.85.156 (talk) 23:55, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

God typically murders children, fetuses, etc along with everybody else when His divine panties are put in a bunch. Sparing the innocent is something He only does when He feels generous, which was shockingly uncommon in the Old Testament. Even mentioning them is usually too much effort for Him. 74.178.163.127 (talk) 12:39, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

WP:NOTAFORUM; WP:IDONTLIKEIT; See Genesis 18:16-33 for a clear account refuting the myth of the Old Testament God being unmerciful and unjust to Sodom and Gomorrah.--Gniniv (talk) 08:08, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Use of scripture outside of canon.

The use of the book of wisdom as a reference goes beyond the context of passages considered in the article. Though it may reference Sodom, it should not be used as a reliable source due to the controversial nature of the canonicity of the book. --24.206.221.83 (talk) 17:30, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

LORD (YHVH, God's name) versus Lord (Master) in the Old Testament and New Testament

I noticed that many articles do not differentiate between LORD and Lord. The Hebrew tetragram YHVH (God's name) is translated into LORD, all capital letters, in most English Bible. Thus, the LORD is YeHoVaH God Himself, one of the three persons who appeared to Abraham. While the LORD is Lord, the word Lord simply means Master.

In the second paragraph of this article, "brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven" should have been written as "brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven" See the references below:

“Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven” (Genesis 19:24, ESV)

“Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven” (Genesis 19:24, ASV)

Thus, by correctly using LORD instead of Lord, all the articles in Wikipedia will become more alive. Also by putting the entire Genesis 19:24, people can see how the Jehovah on earth (one of the three persons) rained fire and brimstone.

FYI: according to the New Testament, Jesus (YeHoVaH on earth, one of the 3 persons) destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah as shown in the verses below (Jesus Hebrew, full name is YHVShA (see Biblesoft for Joshua or YeHoVaShA meaning "YeHoVaH Saves"):

“Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgement of the great day – just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire” (Jude 5-7, ESV). The NIV Study Bible uses the word “Lord” instead of “Jesus” but adds the footnote “Some early manuscripts Jesus.”

Thus, according to Jude the LORD who appeared to Abraham was Jesus, and the God who led the Jews out of Egypt was Jesus as no one has seen God (the Father) except His Divine Word (Messenger/Malak often translated and confused as Angel).

“No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known” (John 1:18, NKJV)

“No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father” (John 6:46, NKJV).

Note: NKJV would translate NT "Lord" into "LORD" whenever clear, equivalent verses were found in the Old Testament.

Thus, let's start to correctly edit and use the word "LORD" when appropriate to more acccurately reflect the original Hebrew Bible.

Habibullah rRahman (talk) 06:59, 28 October 2010 (UTC) 27 October 2010

If we are citing a text, we use whatever the text uses. Other than that, for the average reader I'd say all caps is just confusing. A single capital 'L' in context is enough. Dougweller (talk) 07:35, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Your first point is my exact point for bringing up this issue "If we are citing a text, we use whatever the text uses." Thus, if the Bible/text uses LORD, do not replace it with Lord.

The purpose of an encyclopedia is to accurately inform and educate so that people can distinguish. If it is confusing, an explanation is due, though I do not expect confusion as the word LORD is the accurate quote from the Bible in this case. If we use American Standard Version translation, the encyclopedia will be even clearer and improved, as it uses the word "Jehovah" (tetragram YHVH in the original Hebrew) instead of LORD. With ASV, a new reader will immediately and easily understand whether the Bible is talking about God Himself or a Master (Boss). That will make Wiki a better encyclopedia, won't it?

Thus, let's make Wikipedia as informative and as clear as possible by using the clearest Bible translation. And let's transmit quotation accurately instead of changing it. Habibullah rRahman (talk) 12:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Myth

has anyone proven that Sodom and Gomorrah was necessarily a Biblical tale referring to homosexuality, because the evidence is slight.--Graythos1 (talk) 17:17, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, the men of Sodom beat Lot's doors down just to have a cup of coffee with Lot's guests, you know?... they just wanted to "know" them. "Hey, how you doin? what brings you in town? We just wanted to "know" you. Wanna come over to the square for some fun?" ~shoulder, shoulder, hit, hit~

(This is a dramatized enactment, brought to you by Jasonasosa (talk) 00:41, 29 December 2010 (UTC) )

That's a matter of opinion. The New English Bible was plagued with mistakes, such as the Trinity.--Graythos1 (talk) 01:49, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Well it doesn't matter anyway, this type of conversation is for a chatroom. As long as the view/perspective is referenced from a published source, it can be put on the main page. So if you find any good information that has all of the mistakes of the New English and all other translations of the Bible that pertain to this story then put it in or link it. Jasonasosa (talk) 02:30, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Well I'm okay with that.--Graythos1 (talk) 02:39, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Views of Josephus and Philo

I agree with Talk:PiCo that Josephus & Philo have way more content than they should. However, I think its poor form for PiCo to hack the whole damn thing. What is with people just gutting articles? Josephus has offered many insights worthy of discussion. Couldn't you, PiCo, summarize his view rather than gutting it? Bad form. Jasonasosa (talk) 00:32, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry :). Go ahead and put them back, but try to summarise it somewhat. PiCo (talk) 09:55, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

LMAO... I tried... and I couldn't. Sorry PiCo about slamming you above. However, a better explanation than the one you gave probably would've saved some confusion about the matter... especially for the amount of content that was hacked away. But... I understand NOW, lol. Jasonasosa (talk) 13:53, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Disagreed with for being a meanie.--Graythos1 (talk) 14:21, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

>.> Jasonasosa (talk) 16:16, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

LOL.--Graythos1 (talk) 17:28, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

archeological evidence

I cite from the article "as little archaeological evidence has ever been found in the regions where they were supposedly situated." Maybe because god or satan i think, destroyed them completely? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.1.88.199 (talk) 01:59, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Or the cities never really existed. Or the cities were small towns by later standards. Or they are buried under the debris of centuries like dozens of other cities and towns and await rediscovery. Or any of a thousand other reasons. Irrelevant, as this is an encyclopedia article, not a speculation forum.Wzrd1 (talk) 01:21, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Use as a metaphor

User:Pass a Method added a reference from Feinberg expanding "Sodom and Gomorrah have been used as metaphors for vice and homosexuality" to "Sodom and Gomorrah have been used as metaphors for vice, idolatry, homosexuality, inhospitality, rape and unnatural sex". This is not in the reference provided - there is nothing there about the metaphorical use, which is what the sentence was all about. StAnselm (talk) 21:15, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Declaring some religious views orthodox/true is hard to reconcile with a neutral point of view

A number of wikipedia articles describe certain religious views as orthodox, implying that they are true, or depending on the article declare others heretical, implying that they are false. I don't think Wikipedia is equipped to decide which religious views are true or false, and it would make sense to try to describe them as neutrally as possible. 173.66.211.53 (talk) 16:34, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Usually orthodox means more like 'usual' or 'standard', not true. If the word 'heretical' is used it should be used not as a statement of fact but as a view/opinion. Dougweller (talk) 19:07, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Tall el-Hammam Ash Layer

The paragraph about the dig at Tall el-Hammam in the article mentions "the discovery of an ash layer with human bone fragments, indicating a cataclysmic and sudden end to the civilization in this area" (from a revision by User:Jcchat66 dated 6 June 2013). I searched in the references given, and they do not refer to an ash layer with human bones. Further, it seems unnecessary editorializing to say that this would "indicate a cataclysmic and sudden end". I believe ash layers are found all the time in archeological digs, and they usually indicate a fire or a battle, not a cataclysm. Aasmith (talk) 06:49, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I've just realised that the archaeology department involved is from the unaccredited Trinity Southwest University which believes that "the ancient Hebrew Tanakh and the New Testament", is the "divinely inspired representation of reality given by God to humankind, speaking with absolute authority in all matters upon which it touches". Dougweller (talk) 08:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Which isn't the same as a "literalist" view. I don't think we need to mention Trinity's theology, and I wouldn't know how to best express it. I left in their lack of accreditation, but I don't think it belongs unless we can show a reasonable link between it and their archeological statements. Have the results of the dig been criticized anywhere? StAnselm (talk) 09:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I've added something. You've replaced what I see as a pov statement telling the reader what they should find intriguing -- did you mean to do that? I can't find the El Defensor article reproduced here[7] but it clearly existed, see [8] I really think that readers should know that the institution isn't accredited. I'm also wondering if we should use Neil Silberman's quote from a book by Eric Cline, "Having learned of Harris and Beardow's "earthquake and liquefaction" theory. Silberman said: "This is Noah's Ark stuff. The real challenge for biblical archaeologists today is not to search for long-lost cities, but to understand why the ancient Israelites formulated these powerful myths." Dougweller (talk) 09:43, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Did you mean "npov"? Anyway, I'm suspicious of attempts to include what we think people will find intriguing. It smacks of WP:SYNTH. But I have no problems in mentioning Collins' motivation and method - "operating on the belief that the Bible is true," Collins looked for "a city destroyed in the Middle Bronze Age, about 2,000 BC," which "showed evidence of no occupation for several centuries after its destruction," etc. StAnselm (talk) 11:24, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

As of 25 September 2013, none of these changes were in the document. The bit about the lack of accreditation is justifiable now, I think, since one of the citations is "Arguments Against Locating Sodom at Tall el-Hammam" by the Biblical Archaeology Society, so the results of the dig have definitely been criticized. As written, the end of the section now mentions a critique of the dig's findings.

I also revised the sentence about 'most intriguing...' etc. to: The researchers claim to have discovered an ash layer containing human bone fragments, which they claim indicates a cataclysmic and sudden end to the civilization in this area. Nightrose (talk) 18:58, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

This university's website is not a reliable source. Nor are YouTube vides. There are a lot of unreliable sources, especially to bolster the non-standard view that S&G really existed and were destroyed by God. Let's stick with reliable sources. Jonathan Tweet (talk) 15:45, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Of course the website is a reliable source, easily verifiable. And the government and Jordan sponsors the archaeological site. This is basically an ad hominem attack on a group. Religious or not, this is a significant Middle Bronze Age find which may, or may not be related, to the Biblical Sodom, and people have a right to know it exists. Details can be found here. http://www.tallelhammam.com/ Sources have been cited. Jcchat66 (talk) 17:19, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

There is no "of course" about it. It "may or may not be" means that it's not only WP:FRINGE, but WP:UNDUE. Your argument reads as WP:ITSIMPORTANT. Well, no, I'm sure most of us don't think it to be important to reference it in the content of the article. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:35, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Popular culture

A few months ago I performed a crapectomy by removing the entire "Popular culture" section. It's a stupid thing to have in this article; a universally known concept - a meme, if you like - such as Sodom and Gomorrah has a vast number of references throughout culture, and listing garbage like "In the manga and anime, One Piece, the Franky Family owns two King Bulls called Sodom and Gomorrah" or "In the videogame Fallout: New Vegas one of the main casinos on the strip is named Gomorrah, and its most notable trait is the abundance of exotic dancers and prostitutes as well as a hell-like decor" or "In the manga and anime, One Piece, the Franky Family owns two King Bulls called Sodom and Gomorrah" just makes Wikipedia look stupid. Major, notable references might be worth collecting. Anyway, someone replaced the section, so perhaps we should discuss it. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 22:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

• I removed it again before seeing this but really I don't think there's much to discuss. Per WP:TRIVIA, lists of miscellaneous, unsourced factoids should be avoided, so your removal of the popcruft a year ago was perfectly correct. I don't think it's acceptable for another editor to basically revert you after a year and to offer no explanation or improvements whatsoever. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹^Speak 23:43, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Emphasis in “Christian” section

90+% of the Christian section is dedicated to the sexual/nonsexual arguments about interpreting yada (know). Among the Christian Churches that accept the likely sexual interpretation, there is still a huge debate on whether homosexuality in important. There is the Anglican Communion view that the story is “not even vaguely about homosexual love or relationships”, but instead “about dominance and rape, by definition an act of violence, not of sex or love.” There is the view of some Presbyterians cited that homosexuality is supremely important. It appears to me this "violence to foreigners" ethical downfall vs. a homosexuality ethical downfall debate is the bigger real debate among Christian Churches today, and not the sexual/nonsexual arguments. -Bernardwoodpecker (talk) 01:11, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

References

Allcaps "LORD"

As title. In the "Biblical narratives" section, the word "Lord" is in allcaps every time it occurs, which seems inappropriate for Wikipedia. Rectify? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.251.184.147 (talk) 14:29, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

In quotes, it is appropriate as it appears in the English translations it is quoting, the word itself being a substitution for the Tetragrammaton in the Hebrew source (the reason it is all-caps). But, it is also being used outside of quotations, and those should be replaced ("God" or "his god" or similar would probably be a better fit in these cases). — al-Shimoni (talk) 10:17, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

this is probably Mohan jadaro and Harappa in India( Revelation 11:7-8 makes an allegorical use of Sodom when it describes the places where two prophets will descend during the Apocalypse.). THat is also dead mountain. death was due to fire/. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joint1234 (talk • contribs) 17:01, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I took care of this. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 11:58, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Jay Michaelson

I just reverted an edit that removed Jay Michaelson's views from the Jewish religious views section. Since I'm afraid this could turn into an edit war, I'm explaining myself here. This seems similar to the WP:NPOV discussion under "Christian Views" on this talk page. While Jay Michaelson falls well outside of traditional Orthodox Judaism, he's an ordained rabbi, so I don't think we ought to exclude his views. If I made a mistake and there's merit to the edit that I reverted, I'm happy to discuss it here and establish consensus. ASchurman (talk) 20:43, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Lead makes no sense

It says "Divine judgment by God was then passed upon Sodom and Gomorrah " - coming after a biblical comparison of the plain with Eden. Surely that's not why judgement was then etc? When I see "was then" I expect to see something meaningful preceding it. The "was then" bit was added here. Doug Weller talk 11:10, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

I just read the Lede and had the exact same reaction. Came here to post my own section, and discovered someone else also has the same opinion. "Judgements" do not come for no reason. There's a WHY. The Lede should include WHY. Excluding those characteristics that caused the judgement because they are currently considered acceptable and even popular in the west is a form of censorship.2605:6000:6947:AB00:D54F:D719:F9A0:A888 (talk) 05:09, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Location and Cause of Destruction of Sodom

Recently published research fits the description of the destruction of Sodom and suggests it may have occurred about 1700 BCE by a meteor exploding overhead . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clint420601 (talk • contribs) 19:10, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

I just added a paragraph about this. The paper was originally from 2015 but the recent update is getting a lot of news coverage. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 09:27, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

More complete citation for the 2018 conference paper: Phillip J. Silvia (Trinity Southwest University); A. Victor Adedeji (Elizabeth City State University); Ted E. Bunch (Northern Arizona University); T. David Burleigh (New Mexico Tech); Robert Hermes (Los Alamos National Laboratory); George Howard (Restoration Systems); Malcolm A. LeCompte (Comet Research Group); Charles Mooney (NC State University); E. Clay Swindel (Comet Research Group); Allen West (Comet Research Group); Tim Witwer (Comet Research Group); James H. Wittke (Northern Arizona University); Wendy S. Wolback (DePaul University); Dale Batchelor (EAG Laboratories), The 3.7kaBP Middle Ghor Event: Catastrophic Termination of a Bronze Age Civilization (Conference abstract) (PDF), American Schools of Oriental Research, p. 151

173.228.123.166 (talk) 09:33, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

It's far too soon. Conference papers are not considered reliable sources. Both Steven Collins (archaeologist) (author of one of the sources) and Phillip Silvia work at the unaccredited Trinity Southwest University and thus accept the Bible as having absolute authority and without error. This means that they have to accept the biblical story. Hermes doesn't work at Los Alamos now, he's retired. This is a real mixed bag and we need to wait for peer reviewed publications and responses. Doug Weller talk 10:31, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, there is a ton of reporting about it in the mainstream and science press, though I can see that may be from the sensational claim. I didn't know the situation with Trinity so can go along with the idea that the Silvia paper is not a scientific RS. But I think we should mention it in one way or another. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 10:52, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

I spent a while longer looking at this stuff. It is interesting but overall yeah it seems on the fringey side. OTOH it has enough secondary references to make it notable, so we should mention it anyway. I might add something under "alternative hypotheses". I'm not too worried about its scientific status in that context. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 08:57, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

The meteor explosion seems to be a new idea, but the identification of the site as Sodom is over 10 years old, & covered in the "site" section: "Another candidate for Sodom is the Tall el Hammam dig site which....". Johnbod (talk) 10:48, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Right, I want to add a mention of the meteor explosion theory, though I am skeptical of it at this point. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 12:43, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Doug that we should wait, at the least until there is a proper paper published. Johnbod (talk) 13:04, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Maybe you're right. It's a dilemma. The exploding meteor story is fantastic as a basis for a special effects movie so it's no surprise that the press jumped on it. It is notable and will probably stay that way even if scientific review doesn't pan out. On the other hand the press reporting I've seen is is rather uncritical (perhaps they are waiting for the phone call from George Lucas) and in my own reading there's certainly room for criticism. I guess it's ok to wait a while, either for a scientific response or a more careful popular-level response. The story is still pretty new so we fall into recentism if we write about it too early. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 23:23, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

References

Neev/Emery book

David Neev, K. O. Emery (Oxford Univ. Press 1995), "The Destruction of Sodom, Gomorrah, and Jericho: Geological, Climatological, and Archaeological Background", ISBN 0195090942 might be interesting. I haven't looked at it but there is an Amazon blurb. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 03:08, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Meteoritic explosion

Other articles affected:

• List of possible impact structures on Earth (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Tall el-Hammam (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Trinity Southwest University (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Younger Dryas impact hypothesis (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Steven Collins (archaeologist) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The sources used appear suboptimal. Since this would be the proper article to include this hypothesis, if any (the promotion was made at other articles but mostly reverted, some remains at Tall el-Hammam), it may be worthwhile to attempt to find a better source like a published scholarly book. —PaleoNeonate – 00:50, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

So now that I have a little time to type: It's not surprising when archaeology in the east is compared to popular culture including the Bible. Among the collection of stories, some include the name of actual places and even sometimes history-derived events (even if distorted for nationalist and propaganda purposes). On the other hand, Wikipedia is concerned with notability and representing mainstream knowledge. This means that a few recent sensationalist stories in the news may not be enough (WP:NOTNEWS, WP:RECENTISM, WP:NOTDIRECTORY). As for primary journal papers, WP:PRIMARY applies (a primary source is sometimes acceptable when from someone considered an authority in the field and it represents the existing academic consensus). This means that the material should ideally be supported using secondary (academic scholarly books and reviews) and tertiary sources (like other encyclopedias which help to determine which facets of a topic are important). Ideas covered by such sources have gained a certain traction and are suitable for Wikipedia. This does not mean that older existing parts of the article are immune, they may be challenged anytime (WP:CITE, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS). Even when considering using sources like news, we should also detect when they are op-eds or press releases. Attempting to push material repeatedly that is unsuitable may be considered promotion, which is not what Wikipedia is about (WP:PROMOTION). —PaleoNeonate – 06:01, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

• It seems that the claims made here is a type of synthesis, I see no mention of Sodom in the Sweatman/Coombs paper and CosmicTusk is not a reliable source. I see no obvious collaboration between Collins/Silvia and Sweatman/Coombs there. —PaleoNeonate – 23:29, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

"Two angels were sent to Sodom to investigate" — FALSE

Section 2.2 The Judgment upon Sodom and Gomorrah, paragraph 2, states "Two angels were sent to Sodom to investigate...". But in Genesis 19:13 those two angels explicitly tell Lot the LORD had sent them to Sodom to destroy it. Multiple translations are at that link; not one hints at "investigation"; the angels only wait long enough to get Lot and his family out alive.

The idea that judgment had not already been pronounced before the angels arrived seems tied to the argument that Sodom was destroyed due to the attempted attack on the angels, proving God's disapproval of gang-rape consensual same-sex relationships. [This alteration of the storyline might have been a more effective argument to the point had God's wrath been over the men of Sodom attempting to seduce the angels.] In any case, it is as false to the source material as saying Adam and Eve roasted the Serpent over an apple-branch fire for their first evening meal. – _•Raven  ^.talk 12:33, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

The text seems to be editor interpretation of the primary source (the scriptures). It ideally should be a summary of a reliable secondary or tertiary source instead, which may possibly also solve this (examples would be notable commentary works, scholarly books, encyclopedias, etc). You may be right, but without such sources this would still be original research or synthesis. Per WP:BRD, feel free to edit the text; if it's contested then discussion can resume here for consensus. Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 13:09, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Middat Sedom

I don't have time to add this now, but here's a useful reference on middat Sedom or Sodom-like conduct in the Talmud. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:38, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Location of Neba, Zeboim, Sodom, Gomorah and Admah

Based on the map of Canaan the cities: Neba, Zeboim, Sodom, Gomorrah and Admah located under Dead sea. The concentration of sulfur and salt most likely destroyed all structures completely. The flooding was connected with disappearance of the Persian sea, which was located about 50 kilometers to the east, in current Jordan.

A map of Canaan (8343807206)

Snaf2k (talk)

That map is in no way a reliable source, and the rest of your post is your own guess, which is not something we use either. Please look for modern professionally-published mainstream academic sources. Ian.thomson (talk) 11:35, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

@Ian.thomson: The map was taken from Wikipedia, so it is a possible academic source. Since Armenia, Syria, Israel, Caspian sea and most cities are accurately related to modern locations, what makes you think it's inaccurate?

After a few millenniums, there is no accurate source of how geography changed over time - just like academic sources on pyramids, there no concrete evidence just everyone assumes they are Egyptian. If you think a few minutes about it you will understand that after so much time there will always be arguments on how accurate academic sources are - even some educational books are being rewritten because some new evidence comes up. The map is pretty accurate, you can check it yourself, so it's not my own guess but actually pointing out the given material on Wikipedia - I didn't upload map myself. And next time pointing out about ancient evidence at least be a little realistic and understand that after 2 millenniums there can't be just one correct "academic source" - geography changes, archeologists misinterpret archeological sites just to get in newspaper, etc., maybe most academic sources mentioned in Wikipedia are also false but how would you know without checking it? Not too long ago people thought planet Earth was flat and had plenty of academic sources until proven wrong, Jewish religion switched from Kabbalistic demon-worshipping heretics (Yom Kippur - Azazel) and child burning sacrifices (Tanakh - Moloch) to the current one more than 10 times during thousands of years.. just think about it before commenting on ancient topics that are few millenniums old - there will always be difference of opinion. Snaf2k (talk)

@Snaf2k: No, just because the map was found on Wikipedia does not make it an academic source. That you are saying that only proves you have no idea what an academic source is.

And the stuff about sulfur and salt destroying the cities is your guess, because you didn't cite a professionally-published mainstream academic source for the claim.

Wikipedia is not the place for original research, especially bad original research that doesn't see any value in academia whatsoever. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:39, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

@Snaf2k: I'm really sorry, but Ian.thomson is quite right. First of all, I am very pleased you didn't try to edit this article, but brought your theories to discuss at the talk page, instead. The problem is, an image of any map cannot, by itself, be used by any editor here to make what I'm assuming are your own personal interpretations. New - or indeed, old - interpretations of that map are only acceptable to Wikipedia if the map itself has already been the basis of serious, published research by academics, putting forward their hypotheses on the location of 'lost' cities. Just your own personal interpretation of something is simply not acceptable content to add to this encyclopaedia. That said, you are absolutely spot on in saying that academic consensus changes over time. Of course it does; that is the wonder of academic debate and publication of research - consensus changes over time. And Wikipedia is always willing to present evidence of two or more differing views, providing those views have been published and discussed in detail and in depth by a number of serious and reliable sources - in this case academic, archaeological ones. But that precludes fringe theories and other possible alternative interpretations that individuals like you or I might choose to put forward because we happen to draw conclusions and theories about something that nobody else has noticed before. Wikipedia, you see, is not a place to publish original ideas and theories that we both might have, but to collate and summarise what other reliable and respected sources have published on any given subject. It's for that reason that, in the article on the Earth there is mention of the former belief in a Flat earth, plus a link to that very important, and well-referenced, article. But there is no mention of Discworld there, nor should there be. So, if you can provide references to properly published, independent sources that demonstrate that at least some notable academics (either today or in the past) have indeed put forward different interpretations of the cities' locations as you assert, and using that map as its basis, then including a statement about that map, properly supported by reliable references, might be acceptable. Until you can do that, there is absolutely no chance of inserting what, I assume, are simply your own ideas based upon it. I do hope this helps, and thank you for raising that idea, even if we can't run with it. Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 00:42, 10 October 2019 (UTC).

@Ian.thomson: :@Nick Moyes: Thank you guys again for your input. Somehow everything you write represents your own assumptions. Ian Thompson I actually didn't post any of my own theories here - you can find information about salt and sulfur when you read "Sites" paragraph on Sodom and Gomorrah article. It clearly states about salt and sulfuric deposits in earth so nothing can grow there.

Nick Moyes you also jump to conclusions fast, I only repeated the first paragraph where it mentions locations of those 5 cities, corresponding with the map. On Wikipedia it's called "scholar's belief" and most information on ancient topics is based on those "beliefs". I didn't make anything up - just summarized the first paragraph of the article about "Sodom and Gomorah". Snaf2k (talk)

@Snake2f: The "Sites" paragraph doesn't actually mention sulfur. The only discussion of sulfur in the "Historicity" section (where the "Sites" section is located) says that that claim has been debunked by historians and even the most credulous of religious institutions. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:28, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Vatican publishes new book reducing ‘sin of Sodom’ to ‘lack of hospitality’

In a very conservative web site - www.lifesitenews.com/ - it is published details about Vatican's new book (the book is publish very recently). It says:

The commission concludes: We must therefore say that the story about the city of Sodom (as well as that of Gabaa) illustrates a sin that consists in the lack of hospitality, with hostility and violence towards the stranger, a behavior judged very serious and therefore deserving to be sanctioned with the utmost severity, because the rejection of the different, of the needy and defenseless stranger, is a principle of social disintegration, having in itself a deadly violence that deserves an adequate punishment.

This is Vatican's most recent official position about Sodom. The source, once again, is very conservative (it's a pro-life group's web site), but even they admit this important book (a result of Commission's work) is an official position of Vatican. M.Karelin (talk) 23:55, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

The consensus position of Wikipedia editors is that LifeSiteNews has a serious problem of publishing false information. Alephb (talk) 00:02, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

1) I know that they are radical Conservatives and thus what they type must be checked, but even they admitted that the book was published. 2) An information about this book can be found in other sources as well, if of course, you want to try to find it. M.Karelin (talk) 00:13, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

UPDATE - There are other very Conservative groups who wrote about this book, of course criticizing it - [9], [10], [11],[12]. If they admitted that the book was released and what is written in there, then this is a really new voice of Vatican about Sodom interpretation. M.Karelin (talk) 00:22, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Has this book's opinion on Sodom and Gomorrah attracted attention reliable published sources, outside of internet blogs and such? Alephb (talk) 00:51, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

This book is released by official Vatican. In Theological questions Vatican itself a reliable source. M.Karelin (talk) 01:05, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

You are saying that the book represents the official position of the Vatican. How do we know this is true? Alephb (talk) 01:08, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Just for clarity, I would request that if you have new things to add to the conversation, you do so at the bottom of the thread, rather than editing your previous comments. Though I assume your intent is honest, it changes the history of the conversation. Alephb (talk) 01:53, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

The book's name is - What Is Man? An Itinerary of Biblical Anthropology (Che cosa è l’uomo? Un itinerario di antropologia biblica). It is very interesting book, and not only about "Sodom". Here, in Vatican's official web site, you can read about the book - [13]. This is a prove that the book was released by official Vatican. M.Karelin (talk) 01:56, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Now that is useful. What that tells is that the Vatican has written a news article about the book, and that the book-length study is by the Pontifical Biblical Commission. According to the Vatican, the Pontifical Biblical Commission is a "consultative body". That is, it provides advice on biblical matters to the Magisterium; it is not the Magisterium itself. So we cannot assume that anything published by the Pontifical Biblical Commission is the position of the Catholic Church. If the Catholic Church wished to say that everything in the book is its official position, it could easily say so, but as far as I can tell it hasn't. Alephb (talk) 02:10, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Is the opinion of Pontifical Biblical Commission a reliable source for this article ?? Before answering to this question, plz pay attention to the other sources in the article itself, and compare. And I wish to hear an opinion from other editors as well. @PaleoNeonate: ,@Ian.thomson: M.Karelin (talk) 02:29, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I'm not commenting on the other existing sources now, but this could be used to present the interpretation/opinion of its authors with attribution, if the text is clear enough that we don't need a secondary or tertiary source to interpret it for us (WP:PRIMARY, WP:ATTRIBUTE). If so, this then poses the question of WP:DUE: is this a wide enough view, or that of an important enough authority to deserve mention? About the previous lifesitenews source, I agree that it shouldn't be used, better secondary and tertiary sources are likely available if it's an important event. —PaleoNeonate – 03:15, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Don't really have too much time to go through every source currently in the article but I will note that the section on Christian views does detail the Anglican Communion's official position. The Catholic Church is the largest Christian denomination on the planet, so any official statements from them on a topic would probably be WP:DUE. That said, AlephB raises the point that the Pontifical Biblical Commission is not the Magisterium itself, though our article on them still describes it as part of the Roman Curia (the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in particular). So while it is not the Magisterium itself, their job is to first and foremost to report what Catholic doctrine is and what it means, even if they're in no position to issue ex cathedra statements. Sure, the Magisterium could theoretically contradict or overturn whatever the Commission says at any time but until that happens it's enough reason to include with attribution. Ian.thomson (talk) 09:34, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

When it comes to official statements on Sodom and Gomorrah from the Catholic Church, we have not only whatever it is that What is Man? is saying, but also what is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, according to which Scripture, specifically including Genesis 19:1-29, "presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity" (2357). Now, this does not mean What is Man? is insignificant or not worth mentioning, but I think we'd want to be careful giving the impression that What is Man? supercedes all previous statements on the passage. There may well be reliable sources that can help us speak to this issue. This is not such a source, and I have not yet, in fact, seen a good reliable source that we could use regarding this book, although I would be happy if one of us found one.

As for citing the book directly, I'm not going to be much help there. As far as I can tell it is available only in Italian, which I cannot read. Does anyone involved in this conversation read Italian and have access to the book itself, or are we all working off lifesitenews and sources that are cribbing from lifesitenews? Alephb (talk) 22:31, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

I also cannot read Italian and agree that catholicsarenotchristians is also unusable. Maybe it's really too soon to add anything more about this yet too... I'm not Catholic (was raised as a JW), but I inherited a number of books and Bibles, including various Catechism, some old, some abbreviated, others with extended comments, I was just curious: is there an official updated one for reference and/or citations? I also thought I'd check RSN and here some agreed that it could be used but then another editor recommended letting theologians interpret it for us (that may be where commented ones could be useful)?... Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 21:51, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

If I understand the situation correctly, the most up-to-date Catechism is the 1992/3 English version maintained on the Vatican's official website: [14]. My impression, based on reading the various unreliable sources and trying to reconstruct the reality, is that What is Man? is that it upholds the Catechism's teaching on LG people (sections 2357-9, no mention of BT in the Catechism), but would remove Genesis 19 from the Catechism's list of Scriptures teaching that homesexuality is "grave depravity", while still retaining the opinion that other passages do uphold the traditional teaching. But I'm not in a position to offer any reliable sources to back this up. Alephb (talk) 01:24, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

I note in passing that (if this is truly official Church doctrine now) it harmonizes Catholic teaching with what has long been Jewish teaching on this issue, see "What was the sin of Sodom?: A collection of classical Jewish texts" – _•Raven  ^.talk 20:08, 28 January 2020 (UTC)