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Aryan invasion theory and Hindustan

The India page needs to be clipped. It's 31 KB in length, almost the safe upper limit suggested by wikipedia for editing.(32KB) Nichalp 19:15, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)
Will someone tell that Lord Surya to stop playing around with the Aryan invasion theory?

Nichalp: You know, wikipedia is set up so that you can address me directly. I would, indeed, maintain that it is you who are playing, since presenting only one side of a contentious issue like the Aryan Invasion Theory is blatantly biased. Also, in your careless edits, you left it looking like "there are two views" 1) AIT/AMT and .... nothing. So, I would ask you reconsider your stance on the nature of my edit of the Aryan Invasion Theory, for as the name implies, it is not fact, and thus all relevant points of view should be represented.

I did not write about the Aryan invasion theory nor do I CLAIM to be an expert on it. Now you may have done your PHD on it, it's not my problem, you are free to contribute. I am not biased for/against the AIT. If you noticed, the previous edit that I made did not omit the 2 theories, only shortened it. (The previous edit was an error, I admit). However, the history on the main page is supposed to be BRIEF, get it? Your articles on the Aryan/non Aryan theories are certainly NOT brief. In a 5000 yr Indian history, the AT, need not be so elaborate, especially since it already has a pretty detailed article. Create an AMT article for the other theory. Anyone who is interested in reading it, may click the link(s). Its their option. I don't know why you have to get so agitated on the AIT/AMT, insisting a long para needs to be there on the FRONT page. Wikipedia has a very good way of adding new pages. Use this: [[]] to add your knowledge instead of it being on the front page. Nichalp 20:04, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

"There are two prevailing theories about the early history of India. One is the commonly accepted Aryan Migration/Invasion Theory, first propounded by the German historian Max Müller in the 19^th century . It avers that around 1500 BC, the influx of Aryan tribes from the northwest of India and to some extent their merger with the earlier inhabitants resulted in the classical Vedic culture. see Aryan Invasion Theory."

Didn't leave out the other theory? I think you may have forgotten this. Secondly, no need to be condescending about my PHD. My most recent edit added two lines or so to describe the other theory that your 'culling' left out. I was not debating AIT/AMT either, I was presenting both points. Note that I have not discussed it and I am quite aware of how to use Wikipedia. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:02, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

As for the name Hindustan, I don't know whether you have lived in or been to India, but it is commonly used. Hindustani is the term used for a mix of cultures that was achieved primariy in North India between Mughals(Muslims) and the local Hindu populace, especially in music, but also in arts like literature and painting (a blended language that is commonly spoken in India, mixing Hindi and Urdu, is called Hindustani). The song, "Sare Jahaan Se Acchaa, Hindustan Humara; Bulbulein hain hum iski, gulsitan humara" (Better than all other lands, our Hindustaan; we are singing birds here, in this our rose garden" is one of the most popular patriotic songs that Indians sing today. It's written largely in Urdu. Thus, I think you should avoid being so condescending in regards to my edits and instead reevaluate why I made them, while, by the way, maintaining the Wiki sanctity of NPOV. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:15, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

I am an Indian citizen and have lived all my life in the wonderful city of Bombay. Your lord highness does not take the opportunity to check my user page. You seem to take me to be a fool explaining what Hindustani means. You also fail to research more on my past edits. I NEVER, have edited anything regarding the term Hindustani. I don't know why you are telling me the difference. I did not delete the word Hindustan. Think, do you seriously feel that Iqbal's lines needs to be on the main page? In my latest edit, I don't think I deleted your continuity theory, did I? So how can you blatantly accuse me of a POV?Nichalp 20:04, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

" India was also known as Hindustan (the land of the Hindus) till its independence."

This was how the page looked after your revision as of 19:26, April 6th, 2004. I was not arguing with your taking out the Iqbal, which is why I never put it back in. I simply corrected what you left there. It reads basically that India stopped being referred to as Hindustan in 1947 whereas it has continued to be a popular and well-established name. Hence, I corrected you. Try to look back to the edits I was discussing. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:03, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

I'll add that I don't mind your streamlining of the page at the expense of extra material, but my edits were done in order to rectify gross errors that were left on the page in the wake of your culling. Slim is good, wrong is bad.--LordSuryaofShropshire 20:19, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

Well if you want really are willing to streamline the page, you would agree that all your superflous matter would be better suited in a sub article. (Plus in your previous edit you have added more data.) I'm sure the average reader is not interested in what Iqbal said on the main page of India.Add it in Hindustan, Iqbal etc. Culling is reqd to keep the page size within limits. Gross errors you say...? Nichalp 20:04, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

See above for why you're off-base. Once again, I have consistently been NPOV and simply corrected your edits when they violate NPOV or blatantly misrepresent information. I responded to you only when you condescended to obliquely reference my playing around with AIT. Lastly, I have lived in Mumbai too, (went to Cathedral), which is why it surprises me that you could have left such a woefully inaccurate statement about Hindustan, in your own carefully supervised edit, go. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:03, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

I think that you need to get back to your roots. Take a walk down the streets in India. 'NOBODY refers to India as Hindustan. Watch a cricket match, watch the news, or any Indian soap. Hindustan isn't referred to anymore. After India's independence India became a secular republic. This is why the term Hindustan was dropped. (I'm sure its mentioned in the ICSE syllabus.) As far as I know, my statement on Hindustan is accurate. I don't know who you know, still refers to India as Hindustan.

I was editing the length of the page, I admitted yesterday that I accidently omitted the line. You overlooked this point. But you have added unnecessary material to the para. These are only theories, there is no need to give an 6 line intro about it.

I did not drag Iqbal and Hindustani into this, you did.

You contributed a lot to the AIT, that's why I wryly mentioned the PHD.

I left the edits as it is on the 6th, presenting both facts.

I said you were playing around because you bloated the page, not for corrections.

PS I am interested why you are so encaptivated with the Aryan theories?

Nichalp 20:38, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)

Nichalp: you know something? You started off this whole 'dialogue' with backhanded comments and an attitude that you know everything. First off, I've already quoted the section where you obviously leave out both views of the AIT. YOu just put ait/amt, not the continuity. If bloating means one sentence, then your idea of how much material is warranted on this page is lopsided.

Secondly, plenty of people I know in Mumbai, in Kolkata, call India Hindustan. When I was in Cathedral, we sang "sare jahaan se accha" whenever a patriotic event was in the offing. Politicians and musicians, students and the general North Indian populace all use the term Hindustani. I'm quite in touch with my roots, thank you very much. But my head isn't stuck in the mud, so my purview isn't relegated to a small stratum. Lastly, I did bring in Iqbal to make a point that Hindustan is a term still commonly used in reference to India. I'm quite aware we're secular, but Muslims and Hindus alike still utilize the term. Ever heard of JAI HIND? Everyone says that in India! Maybe you and your little coterie of Mumbai friends don't, but most Indians do. Lastly, your being smart-alecky about the AIT is only indicative of small-mindedness. I am not on either side mainly because I have strong opinions for both. I want a balanced page on my country to represent both views. You failed to do that, so I stepped in. This has gone on long enough Nichalp. I really couldn't care enough about your parochialism to answer any more of your posts. Jai Hind! --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:37, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)

AFAIK, the term Hindustan is not that much used except that it is used by Advani and few others. Moreover, it is widely used in the context of Hindu-Muslim sentiments. I have also noticed that the term is bit popular among NRIs. --Rrjanbiah 06:02, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I too think the same. Hindustan is used more in the arts - songs, literature, films, etc. And NRIs come to view India mainly from Indian films, so that could explain something. Also the Pakistani media and govt. refers to India as Hindustan I guess. Jay 09:46, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You know, I must admit that, unfortunately, both sides of this argument are based on hollow anecdotes. I claim that I know plenty of people who use Hindustan, and I also bring up the point of the common term "Jai Hind". I have lived in India, visit there, and have friends from all over the country, so my perspective is not NRI, which is a cheap way of dodging a question. You, on the other hand, claim that only politicians use it and that as a term for the Indian nation its use is rather more of an artistic appelation. Who's right? Do you have polls? Do I? No. I think more research is neccessary before I denounce your viewpoint or before you denounce mine. Both are currently without evidence. Let us, then, gather some before continuing with vaccuous pronouncements of certainty. --LordSuryaofShropshire 13:18, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)

"Hindustan" in Government-Supported and Private Sector Industries

http://www.hindustancopper.com/ (Hindustan Copper, which, by the way, "Public Sector Enterprise under the Ministry of Mines, Government of India.")

http://www.hindcables.com/ (Hindustan Cables Ltd; Gov't of India undertaking)

http://www.hindpaper.com/ (A Government of India undertaking)

http://www.hindustan-motors.com (Hindustan Motors, which, by the way, produces a popular car called the Hindustan Ambassador)

http://hindustanpetroleum.com/ (HP Hindustan Petroleum)

http://www.hindustancollege.com/ (Hindustan College ring of South India)

http://www.hindustantimes.com/ (Hindustan Times; well-known newspaper)

http://www.hindustan.org/ (Indian community website)

http://www.hp.co.in/ (Hindustan Platinum)

http://www.hindbook.com/ (Hindustan Book Agency)

http://www.pencilsindia.com/ (Hindustan Pencils Ltd.)

http://www.hindustanglassbeads.com (Hindustan Glass Beads Co.)

http://www.hal-india.com/ (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.)

http://www.hccindia.com/ (Hindustan Construction Company)

http://www.hindpaper.com/ (Hindustan Paper Co. Ltd.)

http://www.hindustanradiators.com/ (Hindustan Radiators)

So, as we can see, Hindustan is far from being erased from the public sentiment. Even colleges in Chennai are called Hindustan, and government supported companies created post-Independence are called and have retained the name Hindustan. It is ingrained in the popular consciosness. I'm not going to list all the companies named after Jai Hind, or talk about Jai Hind College, or talk about the fact that Jai Hind is just as popular in India as God Bless America is in the States as a patriotic slogan, if not more so. --LordSuryaofShropshire 13:41, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)
Oh yes... and one more point... the Army of India's slogan and its most popular signoff for official missives and notices is "JAI HIND." It is the rally cry that jawaans use all the time. --LordSuryaofShropshire 13:49, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)

LordSurya, you forgot about HCL (Hindustan Computers Ltd.). By the way I've just added most of the above names in List of Indian companies; too many red links though. Jay 06:18, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Oh cool... I didn't even know we had one of these in the offing... I'll sloooooowwly ;) start work on the nasty-looking red... we can add some household names like Godrej.... Tata is obviously uber-important, as well as people like Birla.... --LordSuryaofShropshire 15:43, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

Hindustan in Popular Sentiment

I've got six words: "Sare Jahaan se accha, Hindustan humara" Who's going to argue that this isn't one of India's most popular national/patriotic songs ever, especially based on the Ravi Shankar melodic line? It's sung in schools, in functions, everywhere. 'Nuff said. --LordSuryaofShropshire 13:47, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)

I REPEAT, Hindustan is not used to refer as India as a specific country. If you have Pakistani leanings, then that's not my problem. Any company is free to use any term as their title. It does not mean that its a substitution for the word India. Hindustan may be in the back of people's minds but it is never used as a DIRECT substitution for India, which is what you cannot understand. That's what I am trying to explain to you. What is your problem with the sentence "India was also known as Hindustan till independence?"

Jai Hind was coinded before independence. Unless you are a hippocrate like Bal Thackeray who insists on changing names, it would be foolhardy to change Jai Hind to something else.

Similarly sare jahaan se accha would be obtuse to change it to sare jahaan se bharat . Patriotic songs of past eras will never change lyrics, and you justifying them as a means of substituting it for Hindustan/India is ludicrous.

You and your clique of cronies are living in a time warp, going back to the 1940's where you believe that every one on the road out here uses phrases such as "I am leaving Hindustan to go to England" OR "Hindustan is Shining".

Have you travelled to places in India other than Bombay or Calcutta to justify the Hindustan angle all over India?

I said I wasn't an expert in Aryan theroies in my first reply, you overlooked past replies.

I REPEAT AGAIN, you brought the Hindustan(i) angle.

And why do you keep mentioning your school?

Nichalp 19:36, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)
Nichalp: You are completely out of line. I have been in many places all over India. Your excuses and rebuttals simply smack of denial. I mention my school because your "pakistan" comments are rife with 1) bigotry, 2( self-justifying indianess. I have already proven my point. Hindustan is in wide use all over the country, by people in the south and north, no one's stopped using it, and it is used in reference to all of India, otherwise South Indians wouldn't use it. Sare Jahaan se accha, Hindustan humara. If it weren't appropriate, people would have stopped singing it. Jai Hind. If it weren't appropriate, people would have stopped saying it. Your idea that somehow because it was coined before Independence and thus it hasn't changed is wrongheaded and nonsensical. If people had a problem with it they would have dropped it. It's in use, and you're turning rude and launching ad hominem remarks is merely indicative of your own insecurities, nothing to do with me. I don't know what your problem is, but Jai Hind! and I'm done talking with you because you've crossed lines of civil and intelligent discussion, ignoring salient points and pandering to what is obviously a huge issue on your own part. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:10, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)

Out of line?, I need not waste my energy on the issue of Hindustan as you fail to comprehend the reality that is existant today. Comprendes tu, s'il te plaît! I have supported the crux of my point on Hindustan in my previous reply. You corroborate your views with tangential illustrations that are really obscure ... perhaps you'll find a better word for obscure. I have nothing against Hindustan, mind you, if you feel that I am holding something against Hindustan, your sadly mistaken. I wish you remain focused on the point instead of dragging South Indians and Jai Hind et.al. into the picture. It's the Pakistani media that's fuelling the Pakistan-Hindustan idealogy these days mind you. I haven't given excuses nor I am insecure. I have given apt examples to suppport my point, whereas you are the one groping about in the darkness searching for vague examples. Mentioning what you did in school is unwarranted in this context. Granted, people still recite "sare jahaan .." because it is a patriotic song, I think you misuderstand my point, and feel that I am saying that the term Hindustan is erased from public memory. How untrue! (See my previous reply on Hindustan). Of course I am aware that the term Hindustan will never be erased just like Peking, Siam etc. Take any school text book (except the history book) and search for the phrase Hindustan; let me know the results if you wish. Next, Its obvious that Hindustan is used for the whole of India, I don't recall me ever saying that it needs to be referred to as a part of India, so thats another point of yours being off key. Also take a look at 2 replies above by rrjanbiah & jay about the term Hindustan decaying. If you don't believe me, at least take a closer look at their opinion.

PS. Before you vanish with a huff as you threaten to, please enlighten me as to what your call sign means. Nichalp 16:23, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

Nichalp: il n'ya pas du quois a mois. You are fond of high pronouncements but you'll note that I've listed plenty of companies and instances of governent sponsored use of the word Hindustan to describe the national interest. As it is, Hindustan is not used to refer as India as a specific country (your quotation) is off-base. Before you accuse me of groping in the dark, I suggest you look at my citations. Look, there's no point in further ratiocinating about the possible atavism of this term and its gradual atrophy since that is not supported by popular sentiment and its current use. I know plenty of Indians in India and abroad who will frequently make reference to the nation state as Hindustan. Your 'Pakistan' conspiracy theories are without subtantiation. I hope that, perhaps, this issue may be left an issue and not devolve into character attacks such as your unfortunately bigoted remarks about Pakistan and Advani.
My name means I am एक विदेशवाला हिन्दुस्तानि | --LordSuryaofShropshire 00:50, Apr 11, 2004 (UTC)

If you want to juggle with companies even I can mention names such as Bharat Electronics, BHEL etc. As far as the Jai Hind phrase is concerned, "Bharat Mata ki jai". Why is it that the Indian army is known as BHARATYA sena, vayu-sena etc.? Why do we say Bharatiya naari? Juxtaposing Bharat and Hindustan clearly finds Bharat to be way, way ahead of Hindustan, much to your chagrin. I have noticed that you DO like to throw dirt around. Clearly I did not mention Advani's name nor have I mentioned Hindustan(i). But you allege that I did. This clearly shows the volume of frustration you are experiencing, you have my sympathies. I am not bigotic and I rebut that it is you who is dogmatic. As far as the Pakistani angle on Hindustan is concerned, watch PTV for a change. Just for the record, I have interacted with many Pakistanis and hold nothing personal against them. Stop being cynical by disregarding other's views outright, and I do not mean specifically my own (I can corroborate with paradigms). A far as rudeness is concerned, you are no angel to comment on it neither are you God's gift to this world to comment on intelligence.Nichalp 19:04, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)

Dearest Nichalp, I never launched ad hominems and you did. Simple as that. I did not criticize you or your intelligence, but the issue at hand. This is an argument that has long outlasted its worth. If you see the India page, I have amended the sentence to correspond with your and others' concerns. I hope we can leave this at a close, and perhaps work together amicably on other projects in the future, such as Mumbai or other India-related topics. I am very fond of our correspondence and treasure it as a putative baptismal rite in the ways of Wikipedia debate. God bless our souls. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:10, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)

Let's set the ad hominems aside. I agree to leave it at a close. I also noticed the status on the main page and thank you for the same. I shall reply to you later. TRUCE DECLARED Nichalp 20:05, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)

Your opinion on Hindustani may be right. But IMHO, the term Hindustan is used in two contexts: 1. brandname, 2.to refer to India. As I said earlier, the second meaning is not at all or less used. The second meaning won't come into your mind, unless you read this type of historical articles or just heard __someone__'s speech. The first meaning is bit widely used. Yesterday, I talked to a guy from Hindustan College; I asked the reason behind the college name, he said 'it's just a name; again I asked whether it has any link to Hindustan==India, he immediately said "are you mad?". I know a tiny hardware shop named Hindustan workshop--which is run by a muslim guy. My *biased* opinion here is: if someone refers India as Hindustan, he must be a perverted politician or an absolute ignorant. This is my final word on the topic. You may continue your arguments with Nicholas or do some research. EOD. --Rrjanbiah 04:33, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

So fine, it's used as a brandname for India. It's still referring to the country. Asking the opinion of one student from a college means nothing. Are you now being bigoted against Muslims? Also, your value judgement on people referring to India as Hindustan as being politicians or absolute(ly) ignorant are irrelevant to the discussion. People, whether stupid or not, still use the term. This includes movies, brandnames, and casual discussions by many apparently stupid Indians, whether living in India or abroad. --LordSuryaofShropshire 16:55, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)

We have reached a truce on the Hindustan matter. I wish to state that this topic has outlived its purpose an we shall not be replying to any more posts in this regard. Nichalp 19:53, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)

Hindustan in Popular Sentiment: Part Deux

लन्दन देखा, पैरिस देखा
लन्दन देखा, पैरिस देखा और देखा जापान मैकल देखा, एल्विस देखा सब देखा मेरी जान सारे जग में कहीं नहीं है
दूसरा हिन्दुस्तान, दूसरा हिन्दुस्तान, दूसरा हिन्दुस्तान

What is Vadishwala? Perhaps you mean "Ek Videshwala Hindustani". I still see no link to LordSuryaofshropshire. Nichalp 19:15, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)

Dear Nichalp, Update your font settings and you'll see the ee-kar fall into place. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:03, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)

Pub. Notice. Nichalp and I, the current and former Mumbaikars, have decided to lay this vitiating and cyclic debate to rest. Like catacombs of some minor skirmish in an unknown land, may this once lively weave of rebounding verbiage be archived, left for some supremely bored wiki-progeny to mull over in distant years, wondering at how such fierce argument could possibly fizzle so quickly into shaant samaapt. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:00, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)

Four Major Cities

I replaced the four major cities, which someone cut out. They are not only the four largest but also four most well-known capital centers of India and if we're mentioning nations that surround India we should surely mention its major metropolises in the same breath. Also, there's no chart or section on the page which properly highlights them, so culling for size might be done differently. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:24, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)

Largest India city is mentioned in the table. So is the capital of India. For other cities, please refer to the demographics sub heading. Agreed that it's not going to save much space, but it pushes relevent data from immediate focus such as the table. Plus I'm not done with the reduction of file size. I hope you do delete it and add it under demographics. {Nichalp}

My question is about four cities, not the largest. It is acknowledged that India's four urban hubs are Mumbai, Dilli, Chennai and Kolkata, so they should be mentioned. To talk about them is more important than mentioning every single neighboring body of water and nation external to India. --LordSuryaofShropshire 18:24, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

Good edit.--LordSuryaofShropshire 21:14, Apr 11, 2004 (UTC)

Can somebody write about Economic reforms in India ?? -kesava

Like the rest of South Asia, India has stagnated economically since independence in 1947, while countries in nearby South-East Asia and East Asia have made remarkable strides in wealth creation.

Actually, Sri Lanka started privatizing, and opening up it's market, in the late 1970s, and India was not far behind. Now, even the communist parties talk about how to make this transition well (though they're still opposed, in principle).

and India was not far behind.

Yeah, just 23 years. -- Gyan

But look at the impact the economic reforms made in the past 12 years(1991-2003) !! Living standards of the Bourgeois(or the Indian middle class) have been improving consistently. Education is receiving more attention. Chief ministers of the states are on a constant mission to attract more and more FDIs to their respective states. India (especially states like Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Maharashtra and Gujarat) is undergoing a silent socio-economic revolution. -- kesava

Is the Indus Valley cradle of the ancient civilization mentioned in the article now part of Pakistan?

It comprised a large area, falling in present day India, Pakistan and even (IIRC) Afghanisthan. -- Arvindn

India used to be a great colonial master herself, the days of the Mauryas.

I'm not familiar with this: Who was a colony of whom?

In the days when mighty empires like the Mauryas, Guptas, etc. ruled present-day India, they colonised other smaller kingdoms not only in but also outside present-day India. Many of those empires included vast regions of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Myanmar, etc. The above are examples of North Indian empires. The Chola Empire (South Indian) colonised territories as far away as the delta of the Ganges and the Malacca Strait in SE Asia.

This took place between 500 B.C to 500 A.D. Later India was invaded by Mughals starting ~1000 A.D and the British starting ~1600 A.D.

Since Transnational Issues has grown out of its dark CIA past, it should be put on its own page. However, I think Transnational Issues of India is kind of cumbersome. Any ideas? - Eean

I hear the part about nonviolent indepence is incorrect. Anyone know anything about this?

The independence movement was largely, though not completely non-violent. (Most of the violence was directed against the Indians.) However, independence was mostly the result of the fact that after WW2 Britain was so weakened that the colony became more of a liability than a prize.

"Netaji" Subash Chandra Bose formed the Indian National Army to fight the British with the help of the Japanese & Germans (without much success except in creating more awareness about the need of independence) in direct contrast to Mohandas Gandhi's non-violent methods.

"The Republic of India, located in the south of Asia, is the second most populated country in the word and is the world's largest democracy with about a billion people and a thousand plus languages."

Whoa, a thousand languages is a *lot*.

I see a page here http://www.sanyal.com/india/indlang.html "325 recognized Indian languages" and here http://www.abhishek.mybravenet.com/languages%20of%20india.htm "India's schools teach 58 different languages. The nation has newspapers in 87 languages, radio programmes in 71, and films in 15."

Can anybody help sort this out?

Hmm. From http://www.censusindia.net/results/eci11_page3.html

It may be important to note that innumerable mother tongues are returned at every census. For example, in 1961 and 1971 censuses the total number of mother tongues returned was around 3,000, in 1981 around 7,000 and in 1991, these were more than 10,000. These vast raw returns need to be identified and classified in terms of actual languages and dialects to present a meaningful linguistic picture of the country. This operations of linguistic identification of raw mother tongue returns or linguistic rationalization and classification, produced a list of rationalized mother tongues in each census: For example, the list produced in 1961 had 1652 mother tongue names, in 1991 it was 1576. These 1576 rationalized mother tongues were further classified following the usual linguistic methods and grouped under appropriate languages. The total number of languages so arrived at was 114 in 1991 Census.

Re India/Religions:

Does anybody remember anything about the (legendary?) early Christian communities in India? (Saint Thomas ???)

What's legendary? There's the current Mar Thoma church and the Malankara (which I believe are closely related but not the same). Try a google search on the above two names. (ps, it helps to put a date on a query. And it looks good to sign it.) Imc 22:10, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Could someone please add the official long name (likely "Republic of India/Bharat") in Hindi (in the Devanagari script) to the table or alternatively post it here? Thanks. -Scipius 19:44 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)

Done. With one problem. In the ending of the Devanagari name "ज&#2351", the vertical line in the letter &#2332 sdoes not exist. Instead the part to the left is joined to the last letter. But, I can't find the Unicode combination to represent this "half" letter of &#2332 -- Gyan

Thanks a bunch, Gyan. I unfortunately can't help you with your problem, as I can't even get the Devanagari fonts to display (it's all ???? in my browser, Mozilla 1.2.1). Any tips on how to get Westerners to see the correct fonts? Changing the browser's character coding didn't appear to work. Also, could you please add a romanisation of the name below the Hindi name, conform e.g China or Russia? -Scipius 21:49 Feb 23, 2003 (UTC)

I added the transliteration. Note that one letter in the second word doesn't have an equivalent sound in the Roman alphabet. So, it remains an approximation. I tested the page on 3 browsers on my computer: Opera 7,Netscape 7,IE 6 and it worked fine in all. Any font with a Unicode character set should do. Gyan 02:12 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to work in Mozilla for some reason, even though Chinese and Japanese unicode characters do show properly on other Wikipedia pages. Mkweise 02:58 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)

Displays fine for me in Mozilla 1.2 / Win2k. It's going to depend on the fonts you have installed; the Indian scripts are much less likely to be installed by default. --Brion 03:58 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)

OK, I installed a font from http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/fonts.html#devanagari and now I see it. Previously I just had the XDVNG package, which is what most Sanskrit web sites use, but apparently it doesn't support unicode. I wonder whether I should add the font link to the page somewhere? Mkweise

In Unicode (which is what we use in Wikipedia, I presume) the Devanagari group has no separate characters for half-ज, etc. ज् must be converted to half-ज by the software that renders the text, e.g. browser.

Similarly I thought the spelling हिन्दी used in http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3AMaintenance (or for that matter http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3AMaintenance which cannot be accessed nowadays (by me) was wrong but the Unicode document says even this twiddling of ह and ि must be done by the software that renders.

Hence I have added ् (halanth, called VIRAM in Unicode) to the official name in India.

The boundary as shown in the map is not recognised by the Govt. of India and many Indians in general. The region in Kashmir under Pakistani control is viewed as part of India. The map shows the region under Chinese occupation. So what's wrong in having text telling the there is some region shown as part of Pakistan in the map but claimed by India?

Nothing. Checking the history log, it appears that the text that previously stated this got lost in the process of completing the template. Sorry about that, though the text was a bit too long as it was. I've added a new text below it, I hope it is to your satisfaction. -Scipius 21:49 Feb 23, 2003 (UTC)

And currently the Deputy PM (Prime Minister) does a lot of the job the PM is supposed to do (like signing treaties). So I think we should make a mention of him. -- Paddu 04:01 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

If so, then mention this particular function of the Deputy PM, briefly, in the Politics section of the page. The table is used for both the head of state and the head of government (or for a union of the two). I'm assuming that the Deputy PM is not in fact the head of government, though if his function is more considerable than in most political systems it should certainly be mentioned. -Scipius 21:49 Feb 23, 2003 (UTC)

I should mention that this isn't a formal transfer of duties. It just happens to be the current cabinet's arrangement. That's all. I don't think, as such, it has any place in a NPOV encyclopedic article. Gyan 02:12 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)

Official Languages

Isn't English an official language of India? It is not mentioned: Hindi is and also "14 nat. languages". English is not a native language but is official, isn't it? Marco NevesMarco Neves

In regards to the population of Muslims, I think it is questionable whether or not India has the second largest population of Muslims. No definitive figures exist in regards to the Islamic populations of India and Pakistan, but it is generally agreed that the two have similar numbers. Therefore, I think it is incorrect to definitively claim that India has the second largest population of Muslims. It might, but it might not.

DigiBullet 20:38, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

India today (According to the CIA factbook) has the third largest Muslim population in the worlld (As the article correctly claims now). I am not sure no definitive figures exist is a right claim. These governments do have a census system, and at least in India, one's religion is documented. So, there is a definite system in place to gather the statistics.Chancemill 08:36, Feb 5, 2004 (UTC)

&lt table &gt tag

can someone please remove the tag present on the top of the page near the flag?

Kashmir in the map

I don't think there's anything wrong with "originally of India", meaning allocated to India in the partition. -- Arvindn 12:33, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I personally would agree with you, but Pakistan claims that the acession to INdia by HAri Singh was forged and/or illegal, and that Kashmir was thus never legally part of India. Thus saying it was originally part of india inherently invalidates another POV. --Mishac 12:37, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

original could refer to pre-partition. current edit is fine though. --Rj 15:34, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)

Mostly nonviolent resistance to British colonialism under Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru led to independence in 1947...

It would be good if the names of the other stalwarts like Patel, Tilak, Lajpat Rai & Rajaji were added here Bhanu 07:01, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)

where did the word 'bharat' come from?

see List of country name etymologies. Jay 18:32, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

As far as my knowledge into legends go, it is the second mention in the article (the-son-of-Dushyanta) that seems to be correct. Chancemill 15:10, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)

hey thanks folks

shouldnt some mentioned be made of the many dead people during partition, and the migrations cross border between pakistan and india?

Definitely ! Although much of it can be covered in the article Partition of India. Jay 14:36, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thank you to the Wikipedia community for this article and for the open-use policy. I've used this particular article on my daughter's Web site [1]. (If I haven't given proper credit or have made incorrect use, I would appreciate being informed.) - Steve Smith

Thank you Steve for stopping by. I went to the link you mentioned. Looks good and proper to me :) Jay 14:36, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hindustan

Hindustan is a commonly used term in India. Since the government is secular, Hindustan is not an official title, like Bharat. However, "Sare Jahaan Se Accha, Hindustan Humara" and slogans like "Jai Hind" are far from having been dropped, and in fact are very much alive. In the interests of NPOV, we should not act as if this is not the case. Hindustan and Jai Hind have much more to do with the nation-state than land of Hindus. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:39, Mar 26, 2004 (UTC)

Map bait

The following line has been a long-time favourite of anon users, intentional troublemakers and righteous contributors :

"Map shows parts of Kashmir claimed by India, but controlled by Pakistan, as part of Pakistan."

It gets changed to :

"Map does not show parts of Kashmir belonging to India, but controlled by Pakistan, as part of Pakistan."

And then gets changed back and so on. Can there be a different way to word it so that it doesn't appear to be a bait. Something that keeps everyone happy. Jay 14:11, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What happened to the map? I don't see it on the page. Moncrief 06:05, Apr 2, 2004 (UTC)~

What about this: " The two sections of Kashmir that lie divided between India and Pakistan are shown as being part of the country that controls the region in question." or some such permutation... I know it's wordy, but you get the idea. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:45, Apr 2, 2004 (UTC)

How about: "Border with Pakistan shown based on Line of Control." Arvindn 03:18, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Much Better idea, Arvind. Nice. --LordSuryaofShropshire 03:46, Apr 3, 2004 (UTC)

Hey Arvindh, should we have this version of the map? It is not the official Map of India. Aren't we supposed to put a map which INDIA claims? As this page is about India.

Summarizing

This page could be reduced slightly (only slightly) be cutting a paragraph or two off the history section and summarizing the culture section into a length that does not need subheadings. Any info contained here should be at Culture of India too. This page is supposed to summarize that one. --Jia ng 00:29, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Indian territory

Does this page really intend to link to a page regarding Native Americans in the US? Niteowlneils 19:55, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Obviously not. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:33, Apr 15, 2004 (UTC)

Religion in INDIA: caste

If we're going to label Hinduism as 'caste' and vice versa, we're not being faithful to reality nor NPOV. It has also to do with the nature of society and feudalism in communities that were justified by caste prejudices incorporated into religion, much like Divine Right in feudal Europe. Also, it is well-acknowledged that there does exist great caste prejudices in many non-Hindu communities in India, certainly not all, but enough that it is not merely a 'status symbol.' Also, major movements in Hinduism have, since before Buddha, been against caste. So to define all of Hinduism as embedded in caste while ignoring its history of vedanta, yoga, tantra and bhakti movements galore, is in my mind irresponsible and inaccurate. Let us discuss further. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:31, May 6, 2004 (UTC)

I know casteism is a curse, unfortunately it has crept into other religions in India which abhors it. You are right in pointing out that caste is a part of Hindu society. A lot of Goan Catholics (see any matrimonials) do brazenly proclaim that they are Brahmin Catholics, inspite of the Church against caste.

Unfortunately the Indian government, officially banning casteism, still has reservations for castes. I also wish to seek further opinion: Can a hindu marriage be sanctified by a priest who's a non brahmin? Are all Hindu priests necessarily Brahmin? Nichalp 19:00, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

Well, just to clarify convention. Technically, anyone who is a Hindu priest is called a Brahmin. But of course, there is the caste. People differentiate between a practicing Brahmin and one of the Brahmin caste. Unfortunately, yes, Brahmins (priests) are usually culled only from the Brahmin caste. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:03, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

Just to add to LordSurya's response, in many villages in Tamil Nadu, there are no Brahmins left; because of, among other reasons, the Dravidian movement, the Brahmins have all migrated to cities. Lots of village temples thus have priests who're not Brahmins. I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case in many other regions. Ambarish Talk 22:13, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Casteism hasn't crept into other religions as someone has mentioned above and in the main page. It is just that people retain or are forced to retain their caste affiliations even after conversion to other religions. KRS 03:18, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

You are quite wrong KRS. Just recently there was an uproar in Kerala because Christian converts barred lower-castes from their church and refused to let them in. No one was forcing them to do anything. In the same way, many Hindus do reject casteism and many Hindu movements from years ago reject caste categorically. --LordSuryaofShropshire 05:11, May 8, 2004 (UTC)

No, I am right as the incident you bring out itself shows - you are talking of converts, so obviously, even after changing their religion, the caste affiliations are either proudly retained or used as a means of supression in case of upper castes or are being thrust upon on lower castes; also lower caste converts retain their caste identity for benefits- for example Dalit Christians. That covers the exact meaning conveyed by my statement. The issue here is not Hinduism, but Hindu society, or rather, Indian society that is largely determined by Hindu practices. Indian society and culture should be seen as one including Muslims, Hindus and Christians, they are definitely no different. There is an Indian consciousness that separates Indian Christians or Muslims from their counterparts elsewhere. My edits in Indian society convey this clearly. KRS 06:31, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

I submit you are right. Nicely made points and changes. --LordSuryaofShropshire 22:59, May 8, 2004 (UTC)

the lodhi dynasty are pukhtun afghan, not turkic. there are some other inaccuracies as well.

Why is the Hindi being removed from the India article?

Why is the Hindi in the India article meaning "Republic of India" being removed? WhisperToMe 05:01, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

1. It is totally irrelevant here, 2. The word "India" doesn't have any relation to "Hindi" as "Japan" vs. "Japanese" or so, 3. The page is also available in Hindi

It is standard practice to give the names of countries in their own official language. john k 05:21, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

So...it is ok to add all the national languages (List of national languages of India) here???

The other languages are basically official languages for different Indian states, aren't they? So it would make more sense to list them in the articles on those states than in articles on India. English and Hindi are the two official languages of national administration, so it makes sense to give the name in Hindi, but not in the other languages, in this article. john k 06:02, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, all languages should be listed or removed as all the languages important. And it is much awkward to see translation, transliteration and explanation everything there. And it is skeptical, how many people call India as Bharat Ganarajya as stated here. Just do a Google search [2] and all the sources linked to the Wiki and clones--no other pages or sources.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. As an official language, Hindi has a status different from that of the other national languages. It would also be impracticable to list 18 different names. So what's wrong with just giving the English and Hindi? john k 06:43, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Not sure, whether you read the previous reply or not. And couldn't understand it is the place for language or usage evangelification as no other pages refer such

Alright, I'm not sure if you read my previous reply. I have no idea what you're talking about. English and Hindi have a status in India which is above and beyond that of the other national languages. It would be impractical to list 20 different names in the box, and not very useful. As such, it makes sense to just list the English and Hindi names, and no others. This is not about Wikipedia promoting Hindi - it is about acknowledging the already existing fact that Hindi is an "official language" of India in a way that the other languages are not. Beyond that, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. john k 07:31, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I understand... you're discussing without knowing what I'm talking about or what the topic is about

Next time, Rjyan, use four tildes (~) after your name to identify yourself. Another thing is that you've got to prove that we do know about the topic we are discussing about. I'm siding with John on this one. Many languages are spoken in India, but they are purely regional - only Hindi and English have national status, so only they get to be featured on the India table. WhisperToMe 21:57, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Well, I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Various other languages have some sort of quasi-official status, and are the official languages of individual Indian states, but they are not used by the national government. I think it would be fair to say that they should, at least in theory, all be located here. But that would be deeply awkward. Given that Hindi enjoys a special status, I find it hard to see why it should be excluded simply because it's impractical to use all 22 languages, or whatever. john k 23:16, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Let me add my two paise's worth. India has 18 national languages, and User:John Kenney, they're not necessarily official languages of states (Sanskrit), nor are all official state languages automatically national languages (Bhojpuri, for instance). However, as John Kenney and User:WhisperToMe point out, Hindi has a constitutional status different from the other languages, and English has a still different status. This has actually long been a very contentious issue, especially in Tamil Nadu (from where both User:Rrjanbiah and I originate), where a lot of folks believe Hindi has been imposed upon them (see, for instance, http://www.thedmk.org/hindi.html). I happen to agree, but I believe Wikipedia should report facts, and the facts say Hindi is the sole official language of the nation, while English is quasi-official. Thus, I think the Hindi text should stay. BTW, Rrjanbiah, even if (hypothetically) the status of the 18 languages were the same, it doesn't mean all 18 languages should feature in the article. Look at South Africa, for instance. Ambarish | Talk 23:17, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

India has different "official" languages with different uses. Two are in national governmental use (they can get listed) - 16 others can be adopted by individual states but are not used nationally! Hindi, while not spoken by the majority of the people in your area, is a language used all throughout India. Only languages used all throughout India get listed. Regional languages, e.g. what is used in Tamil Nadu shouldn't get listed. South Africa is different - all of the "national languages" get the same status, and all are listed in the South Africa article, though only three are in the table.

And even then, this isn't a reason to delete the Hindi in the first place! WhisperToMe 23:25, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

There is no reason to remove hindi. Though it is not true that hindi is spoken throughout India, it has to be admitted that hindi is an official language of India in a sense that the other 21 are not.(Totally 22 languages are recogniased by the Indian Government. Bodo, Dogri, Maithili and Santhali are recent additions). Technically there are three different levels of recognition fo languages. English was to be the sole official language till 1965 when it was to have been replaced by Hindi. However, it could not be done and both hindi and english are recognised. Hindi is the official language and English the associate official language. The other 21(Assamese to Urdu) are recognised languages and are in official status below English and Hindi. THough personally peopple may feel that this is special treatment to hindi, it is the present situation in India and that should be reflected in the page. So the name in hindi need not be deleted. Whether it is right or wrong on the part of Indian Government is not the issue here. Kartheeque 05:21, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

The South Africa page, has the country named in all 11 official languages Philip Baird Shearer 13:25, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, yes. The point I was trying to make above that it's not necessary (nor would it make the article readable) to have 22 different lines in 22 different languages in the infobox on the right. Ambarish | Talk 15:52, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

As Kartheeque explained, unlike in South Africa, the languages in India operate on different levels. Only two are at "national level". The other 20 are languages which individual states are allowed to declare as individual languages. WhisperToMe 17:21, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

I think we agree that there should be English and Hindi alone in the article. However, you're wrong about the status of the 20 other languages. See my explanation above - the 20 national languages have nothing to do with state languages of individual states. Ambarish | Talk 18:47, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

From: List of national languages of India

"Additionally, it classifies a set of 18 scheduled languages which are languages that can be officially adopted by different states for administrative purposes, and also as a medium of communication between the national and the state governments, as also for examinations conducted for national government service."

It does have to do with the states. WhisperToMe 05:12, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the references, WhisperToMe. IMO, the words quoted above aren't saying anything at all - "can be officially adopted" neither means "should be adopted" nor does it mean "only these can be adopted". To cite an example, Bhojpuri and Marwari, not part of Schedule 8, are official state languages of the states of Bihar and Rajasthan respectively. Sanskrit, part of Schedule 8, isn't an official language of any state, nor is it used for any sort of day-to-day communication whatsoever. Ambarish | Talk 22:11, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The same article says that those two languages, Bhojpuri and Marwari, are largely spoken in those areas, but have no official status. If it is proven that they do have official status, then maybe we should edit that article. WhisperToMe 16:35, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Indian Army

Currently the link Army links to a page which starts The Indian Army was the British backed and led army in India I think disambiguation is needed.Philip Baird Shearer 13:25, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Right. Modifications done Nichalp 19:24, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)

Languages recognized by the Indian Constitution

According to the official Indian website http://indiaimage.nic.in/languages.htm

There are around 18 languages recognized by the Indian Constitution.

So where does this come from: Hindi, in the Devanagari script, is the national language; 21 other official languages are recognised in Schedule 8 of the Constitution.

Ok, I got it. http://indiacode.nic.in/coiweb/coifiles/Schedules.htm the Eighth Schedule lists 18 languages. In order:

Languages
  1.     Assamese.
  2.     Bengali.
  3.     Gujarati.
  4.     Hindi.
  5.     Kannada.
  6.     Kashmiri.
  7.     Konkani.
  8.     Malayalam.
  9.     Manipuri.
 10.     Marathi.
 11.     Nepali.
 12.     Oriya.
 13.     Punjabi.
 14.     Sanskrit.
 15.     Sindhi.
 16.     Tamil.
 17.     Telugu.
 18.     Urdu.

--Ankur 15:46, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Discussion before adding

Please discuss any changes and additions in the talk page before adding. The page is already reaching 32 KB and any info added should be something indispensable. KRS 14:40, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The person who is adding on to the society section, let's discuss here before adding. Rhetoric or specific individuals are unsuitable here- for eg...everyone follows Gandhi's non violence, reviewing globalisation under Manmohan Singh, etc., Society evolves over a period of time and individual agency is not the sole determining factor.KRS 14:44, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Periodisation of "History of India"

Actually the periodisation of Indian history as ancient, medieval and colonial or modern, etc., is considered today as too simplistic. This periodisation dates back to colonial historiography and current attempts are to deconstruct this and use only chronology and not value loaded terms such as 'ancient', 'medieval', etc.,Or even not use a definitive narrative structure at all! KRS 17:58, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

--It may be too simplistic. However, most viewers of India's page can easily associate with ancient being BC, medieval as circa 1000 AD onwards (with the arrival of Islam) and so on. It is better to stick to simplistic lines than to have a whole lot of chronological events. Nichalp 20:01, Jul 6, 2004 (UTC)

Early India

With regards the theory that there was no aryan invasion in early India. Is there any external link to such a theory where I can read more about it? ¶ nichalp 19:12, Jul 8, 2004 (UTC)

* http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/aryan/aryan_frawley.html is quite POV, but an interesting read nonetheless.

* http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/columnsbyrating.asp has a bunch of articles by Rajiv Malhotra that might be relevant. Ambarish | Talk 19:36, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Babur

Babur did not invade India per se. He attacked the Delhi Sultanate repeatedly weakening it. The final parting shot of the Sultanate ended with the Battle of Panipat. ¶ nichalp 19:10, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)

Geography

The sentence India is strategically located in Asia, straddling important trade routes doesn't seem to fit in. First calling a country strategically located somehow doesn't seem right, and I doubt whether it is in fact. Second, I don't think that it straddles trade routes. As far as I know people came to India for spices, other natural resources, textiles, etc., Anyway, straddling means probably on a cross roads or somethng like that, say like if something is on the Silk route. I removed the sentence with an edit summary comment. It has been added without a clarification. Any comments? KRS 14:37, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

India is strategically located. South Asia links West Asia, the East Asian and the South East Asian nations. Ships coming from the Suez Canal (and vice-versa) usually make a port of call in Indian shores before proceeding to Eastern Asia. Similarly, many flights from Europe towards Indo-china region, SE Asia and Australia do cross India (or make a costly detour). One of the major reasons why India so badly wanted Kashmir was because of its extremely strategic and sensitive location (China, Central Asia, India, West Asia thro' Afghanistan) ¶ nichalp 19:39, Jul 14, 2004 (UTC)

Spirituality and Worship in India

Especially directed towards User:Rrjanbiah - I have lived in India and spent long periods of time in many areas of the country, in villages and cities (Mumbai, Kolkata, etc.) Just in Kolkata there are literally thousands of people who make quotidian trips to Kalighat and Bhoothnaath (Shiva temple), in Mumbai the same goes for the Mahalaxmi temple and certain Mosques too. Major temples like Shri Jagganath Mandir in Puri receive worshippers every morning 365 days a year even though they're not in major cities. You may feel smart by saying you're 'reverting fiction', but the only thing fictional about your change was your pretence of authority. A common sight in cities all across India is the small altar set up on the road, and roadside areas in city outskirts or towns frequently have small temples (no bigger than will admit a single body in the edifice). And trees? I mean, Hindus are famed for the fact that they will convert the lower portion of a tree trunk into a standing murti, adorning it with flowers and doing puja there, a representative iconolatry of the local mother goddess or, with coconuts, for Vishnu. You don't seem to like this, but religion is a major part of Indians' lives, whether Muslim or Hindu or otherwise, and it's quite a major aspect of its culture. I realize Nichalp and company are working hard on reducing the size of the page, but things like this do define the ethos of India, as much as music, bollywood films and IT tech do. So I don't know your personal antipathy towards the facts, but please try to present a cogent argument for your ill-advised deletion. --LordSuryaofShropshire 16:23, Jul 15, 2004 (UTC)

No discussion with fiction writers. *thread plonk* --Rrjanbiah 04:58, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I feel the lines about spirituality should have been re-written instead of classifying it as fiction and removing it. I agree with the spirit of the spirituality facts that were mentioned in the article. Jay 08:05, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Society

LordSuryaofShropshire: Your edits in the section are too long and sometimes not fitting within the context. I see that you have reverted the edits of Rrjanbiah who reverted yours. I have rewritten it based largely on my earlier edit incorporating some of your additions. My reasons...

1. This secton is on society, you have removed a reference to multicultural society and replaced it by long sentences on religious practices. This does not fit here and I have removed them. Even if you want to add it in the religion section, it should be more neutral and shorter with an encyclopedic style and not a literary one. By your own admission you are verbose, and if you notice all your edits, many people spend lots of time pruning them down.

2. I have incorporated the sentence on the rural/urban by 1)removing the references to the metropolitan cities which is not germane to the issue and repeating these city names everywhere makes the article long an readabilty suffers 2)removing the data on 90 percent population is rural- this is totally wrong and far from the truth.

3. Again, in the third para you have written long complicated sentences about the changes in society and the rural urban difference. All that is required here is just to introduce the pressing issues in India. Detailed discussions can come in a separate article.

Please keep in mind that this page is already around 32kb and try to add only something essential to the understanding of India without which the understanding would be incomplete.

Please discuss the issue here before you again revert. Others who feel strongly about this please respond. KRS 10:06, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Since writing the above, I have incorporated the spirit behind your edits partially in religion and partially in society when it infringes there. If you write about the roadside temples, in order to be secular you also have to write about the loud church singing/ choir on Sundays, the Muharram processions and so on.... So I have just rewritten the idea as a rich and colourful practice with underlying spirituality. I hope I have covered all the territories you have touched upon. KRS 10:32, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Rrjan.etc.. You are an ass. KRS: You claim that 9/10s of the country is NOT rural? Explain this shocking claim of yours. As for the religious section and secularism, you're becoming ludicrous. Loud singing is common to all religious denominations, but what is unique are the roadside temples. This is not a question of trying to favor one religion over the other. Let's not be childish. India's one of few countries that's needing to make legislation limiting the existence of roadside murtis in places across the country. I also appreciate your comments about my writing, but I never removed the cultural section. That was someone else. --LordSuryaofShropshire 16:33, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)

I asked around and most people believe rural population is at about 70%. I'll try to get a precise figure, but the incredulity to express about the preponderance of Indian population's being rural is odd.--LordSuryaofShropshire 16:34, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)

By the way, as for the detail and length of the article, you fellows need to find a golden mean between slicing down and being non-specific (i.e. boring) and over-detailed. --LordSuryaofShropshire 16:40, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)

LordSuryaofShropshire, this is the third time we are having a conflict wherein whenever I make any criticism of your edits you resort to personal comments or unfounded adjectives in justifying your edits.

When I actually wrote removing the data on 90 percent population is rural- this is totally wrong and far from the truth you have reacted by saying the incredulity to express about the preponderance of Indian population's being rural is odd . What sort of a retort is this? Where have I committed that India is not largely rural? I didn't give figures because I don't know, and if I don't know I don't commit. But I know that you are way of the mark and thats what I have said. Anyway you have changed your stance after making a sweeping statement like You claim that 9/10s of the country is NOT rural? Explain this shocking claim of yours. This means that you react instinctively, without even pausing to consider that maybe you could be wrong and that other people could be right.

You wrote As for the religious section and secularism, you're becoming ludicrous. Again, this is an instinctive knee jerk reaction without any attempt at rational explanation to a carefully worded statement I have made. Is it ludicrous to insist on balanced representation and cutting down details?

You wrote Let's not be childish. How is that germane to the argument? This and you're becoming ludicrous are blatant comments aimed at the person rather than the subject. I have requested you to be polite in the past. Unfortunately you don't seem to take heed.

I see that you show a pattern of insulting personal remarks, though I must objectively say that you have been light on me. However, even that is too much for me to tolerate. On my part I cannot retort in a similar vein. The only thing I can do is to try and hope to avoid the paths you tread in wikipedia- which is going to be really difficult considering the many India related edits both of us make. KRS 18:36, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

P.S Actually the 90 percent rural figure is shocking, even if you defend by saying that you were only 20 percent off the mark. But I didn't use unfounded words like "shocking" and "claim" or "you are ludicrous" did I, I just said way off the mark. If when I have been polite, you react like this, imagine what your reaction would have been if I had used such comments at you. Keep this in mind in future and review what you type after some time before submitting it for saving. KRS 18:36, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Rural-urban Population

Here is the data from the 2001 census

QED KRS 19:04, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

KRS: I thank you for the sanctimonious reprisals you're aiming at me, but I do believe you're being childish regarding the secularism issue, for instance. Muslims and Christians don't have a widespread habit of setting up religious shop on the roadside, and it was an interesting note about India's picturesque religious background. By talking about choir-singing, which is not a visible part of the Indian scene, you're only catering to a misplaced sense of balance, as opposed to real secularism. Secular means not letting religion dictate decisions regarding society, or not favoring one. No one's doing that here. That's why I said it's childish. As for the population thing, you're the one who was reactionary: "this is totally wrong and far from the truth." Nonsense. I worked from a general understanding of a great preponderance. If you're reading the English, you'll see that your freak-out about the figure implied that nothing of a majority populace is rural. So relax.

As for your broad generalizations of my comments to others, you're out of line. I've always given good reasons for changes I render in pages, whether India-related or otherwise, and I'm glad you're chary of editing the same pages as me because it doesn't seem like you're amenable to dialogue and rather take a singular stance from which you preach to others about how they write or work without taking your own editing into account. I added bits about roadside murtis because it's interesting and real; your edits are leaving the page so vague and colorless as to give it no color. We speak about names and events and yet one reads the page and gets nothing. You have to be Indian or have been there to get a feel for anything. Encyclopedia articles don't have to be literary, but that doesn't necessitate their being numb. " Indians are tolerant and secular" yes very true but they're also deeply religious. There's nothing wrong with this. If you want to balance the page don't just remove the mention of a jerry-rigged temples and mention the uniqueness of the water-bridge mosque off of Worli-sea face in Mumbai, or the Lotus-shaped Ba'hai temple in the North. Try to learn how to change a page for the better rather than making attacks on me, unprovoked, coming off the bat and levying all these charges of bias and verbosity. Just concentrate on yourself. --LordSuryaofShropshire 19:47, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)

Excuse me, my discussion pertains to your reactions in the talk pages and not to any content as such. You are deliberately turning it into a discussion on content. I don't think you want to understand what I am trying to say. I think any discerning reader of this talk page will come to the correct conclusion. Thats it from me. KRS 20:03, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I support and second your statements KRS, see your talk page. ¶ nichalp 20:36, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)

Pardon me, but your discussion went private first by clipping my joke about my own verbosity from my user page (which had nothing to do with encyclopedia-articles) and applying it to my edits on the India article. Therefore you had every intention of implying content. You are deliberately wriggling out of your own statements. I have already understood what you are saying, which is why I responded. For instance, I understood your comment about keeping the page bias-free, which is why I made a proposition about highlighting India's spirituality in a realistic and interesting way. Thus, if someone reads this page, they will see a whole lot of superfluous blabber (from both sides, I will admit) and wonder why this couldn't have been kept down to a few sentences. I'm glad that's it from you, so you can rest your fingers and keep your ludic comments about my writing to yourself. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:10, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)

Lets try separate out content-related discussions and person-related debates. Personal debates are best held at user-talk pages. Jay 11:56, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Indian or British English

Look, yaars... I believe this is quite simple. But permit me to intrude upon your kind indulgence by explicating my platform. Indians most assuredly have an elevated form of written English, often utilizing phraseology that lingers from the British colonial past. However spoken English, by and large, is indelibly stamped with the influence of local Indian culture and has very much developed its own flavour. This I have determined from many discussions with my cousin-brother, only. Thus, I have changed the Trivia bullet to say that the Indian English spoken in India is based on British English. I don't see how either side of the debate could want much more here. --LordSuryaofShropshire 06:47, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)

User:24.200.191.208's edits

Getting very annoying how much this fellow's changing the page, most often with long liturgies to Indira Gandhi which should go on her article page, not the summary 'India' article. I've messaged this person twice but he/she is just (obviously) ignoring, so I would hope people could look out for him/her.--LordSuryaofShropshire 16:13, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)

I agree totally. The guy is too lame to create an account for himself, to participate in discussions. No point in messaging the person as he probably has a dial-up access wherein his IP address is dynamically allocated. [[User:Nichalp|¶ nichalp | Talk]] 19:39, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)