Talk:Strikeout

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Alfonso Soriano

I removed his name from the active list of strikeout leaders, as he has announced his retirement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.145.140.220 (talk) 21:46, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Three K's

Dropped:

In older times, a batter who struck out three times in a game was given a white hood (as the three strikeouts would be recorded "K K K"), but this died out after the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s.

This is suspicious for a number of reasons. One in particular is that a baseball scoresheet is in a graph format and there would be many blanks or even filled spaces between the three "K"'s. Even if a player struck out in three consecutive at bats it would not readily scan as "K K K". Another reason is that the team would need to keep a supply of white hoods handy, both at home and on the road, for the sole purpose of teasing its players.

Needs sourcing if this is going to go back in the article. Ellsworth 16:44, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Certainly sounds like an urban legend to me. --UsaSatsui 07:52, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

We should include why the letter 'k' was chosen to represent a strikeout. I heard b/c of the three slashes. And also why the k's get turned around. 72.254.42.74

Missing leaders

Also missing leaders in most strikeouts in a single game.Gidge 22:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Striking out a side in nine innings

While I was researching some on Nolan Ryan, I found out that he struck out a side in nine innings twice, and did it once in each league, the only pitcher ever to do that. I was wondering if somebody could compile a list of ALL the Baseball pitchers that have struck out a side in nine pitches. --Kitch 16:53, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

• See List of rare baseball events.Vidor 05:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Kerry Wood?

Just glancing at this page, I was wondering if someone could verify that the current leaders in strikeouts per nine innings [since 1900] is still accurate? With all the struggles and injury problems he's had I can't imagine he's still up there. Mientkiewicz5508 05:10, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Verified at ESPN.com. Remember that time on the DL doesn't affect things like "strikeouts per innings", because innings just aren't being played. This is, however, a reason that stats are often given some minimum threshold (for instance, a pinch-hitter who goes 1-for-1 on the season isn't eligible for the batting title). — Lomn | Talk 13:28, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

K/9

I think there needs to be a clarification on this stat in terms of what qualifies for the list. There is obviously some sort of minimum number of IP or some other thing that is limiting this list. It would be nice to know what that qualification is. Cjosefy 21:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Wagner on the mets has career k/9 11.78, and 1026 career strikeouts, and the single season record for k/9 at 14.55 but doesn't appear in this article. If there is a minimum number of innings pitched required it should say so66.65.102.49 (talk) 16:47, 25 May 2008 (UTC)Whiteknight

RBI strike out

If there were a runner at third and the batter swung and missed and the ball got completely passed the catcher (either a passed ball of a wild pitch) and the runner were to score from third, I assume the batter would not get an RBI.

I've also seen a two base strike out, when the player swings and missed and runs to third before the catcher gets hold of the ball. Mglovesfun 02:15, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

(1) The passed ball is the same as an error with regard to runs batted in. No RBI in this case. (2) A few times in major history, a team left the field after a third strike in the dirt, and the batter got two or more bases before they caught on. In one case the batter reached third but was out trying to score. WHPratt (talk) 13:25, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Current records

The list of active players in the top 50 is a mess. It says "as of January 4" but Smoltz's total is accurate as of today. Except that he is now 17th, not 19th, and that hasn't changed. Either this needs to be set back to the beginning of the year for everybody, or updated for everybody, or tagged accordingly. Matchups 15:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

The headers that say "Strikeouts per inning" should probably be "per game". I've never heard of someone getting 10 strikeouts in an inning.

Strikeouts per 9 IP

I've updated the K/9 stats as follows:

1. Reduced career stats list to 5 entries. 7 and/or 8 seemed unnecessarily arbitrary
2. Updated career stats inclusion criteria to that used at MLB.com (2000 IP career). Note that this removes an active player.

I've commented further on this stat at Talk:Strikeouts per 9 innings pitched. While I expect change #1 to be fairly uncontroversial, #2 may not be. I encourage those who disagree with the change to find another equally-if-not-more reliable standard for inclusion. Note also that we're already de facto using the MLB standard for single-season K/9 records. — Lomn 15:08, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Less than / Fewer than

Just FYI, the rules book tends to say "before two are out". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 23:11, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Five strikeouts in one innings (sic)

Do we really need all this? To begin with, it's wrong: After two are out, whether first base is occupied is irrelevant to the "dropped" third strike, and batters can still get on base. Even were it not, it should be pretty obvious that when a strikeout isn't an out, they can keep occurring ad infiniutm. WHPratt (talk) 16:39, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I looked into this, and you were entirely right. The whole section about multiple strikeouts in an inning, aside from being somewhat poorly-written, was written under the mistaken apprehension that for a dropped third strike to be in play, there must be two outs AND no runner on first (in fact, it's either-or). The rambling and unnecessary explanation that you identified was the result of that misapprehension.

I cleaned up the text a little, and deleted a lot of the extraneous bits, including the section you pointed out. Thanks! JudahH (talk) 03:26, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Nice job of cleaning up. Those multiple triple steals were giving me a headache.

I tried without success to identify the spring-training game in which Joe Niekro had a five-strikeout inning, but it remains just one step freom hearsay. No mention in the mainstream papers. I even checked a local Cocoa small-press paper from the period. I begin to suspect that, to remain this obscure, it may have been against a "B" team or a college team, or maybe in an intersquad game. WHPratt (talk) 13:56, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

قثغثقغثغفغقف

ث5غثقفغثقف — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.253.11.223 (talk) 17:44, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Are those hieroglyphics a clue as to where we can find the elusive 5K inning? Please clarify! WHPratt (talk) 13:16, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

You never know about Google Translate, but when I posted the writing, it returned random letters. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:21, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I googled [joe niekro 5 strikeouts in one inning], and while a lot of the entries parroted the wikipedia reference, this one[1] has some pretty specific information. It is claimed to have occurred in the first inning of an Astros-Twins exhibition game on April 7, 1976, at the New Orleans Superdome, the day before the season opener. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:30, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Retrosheet verifies that the 1976 season started on Thursday, April 8th:[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:36, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Googling [astros twins exhibition game 1976] yields a scorecard from 1976 on eBay, which suggests the game was at the Astrodome rather than the Superdome, although it's possible they played more than one game that spring. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:45, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

That google also led to the wikipedia article on the Superdome and to this reference[3] to the 1976 game (from April 6th, a Tuesday, and saying they played on "Monday night", which would have been the 5th). Looks like some scanning of newspapers from that week would be needed to answer the question. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:49, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

So it was Monday or Tuesday in some dome or other. I'll see if I can find anything. (I'm beginning to think that the Arabic squiggle above may translate to "Get a life, you people!") WHPratt (talk) 12:41, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Shift margin left!

Well, using ProQuest, that was almost easy! I can give you three complete accounts, plus line score and batteries! But none of them name the batters, nor give the play-by-play! We do have the date and place, so please keep looking … especially those of you in Houston, New Orleans and the Twin Cities.
I had to OCR and type to get them, but I did proofread. Feel free to include as much in the article as you can live with. The fact that it was the final exhibition suggests that most of the participants were genuine major leaguers, more or less. WHPratt (talk) 00:49, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
- - -
Chicago Tribune; Apr 8, 1976; p. C2.
Joe Niekro fans 5 in 1st
NEW ORLEANS -- An unusual first inning marked Wednesday's exhibition baseball game in which the Minnesota Twins beat the Houston Astros 10-3 in the Louisiana Superdome.
Houston pitcher Joe Niekro struck out five Minnesota batters in the first, but the Twins scored two runs in the inning. Contributing to the situation were five passed balls charged to catcher Cliff Johnson.
Niekro, who has apparently refined a knuckleball pitch similar to that of his brother Phil, gave up only a leadoff double to Rod Carew in the wild first inning.
- - -
The Hartford Courant, Apr 8, 1976; p. 68.
Twins Triumph Although Five Fan in 1 Inning
NEW ORLEANS (UPI) --The Minnesota Twins concluded spring exhibition play Wednesday by beating the Houston Astros 10-3 in the final of a three-game series.
The win brought the Twins’ final preseason record to 10-5.
In an unusual first inning, the Twins jumped off to a two-run lead although five Twin batters struck out in the inning. Five passed balls, however, that occurred when Houston catcher Cliff Johnson was unable to contain the knuckle ball offerings of pitcher Joe Niekro, contributed to the unusual nature of the inning.
The Twins. upped their lead to 5-0 in the third in a rally that featured four hits and that was capped by Jerry Terrell's double down the rightfield line. Houston got a run back in the fourth on a homer off the facing of the second deck in left field by first baseman Bob Watson.
Houston scored single runs in the seventh and eighth but the Twins jumped on Gil Rondon for four more in the seventh. Again a double capped the the [sic] rally, this time a two-run blow by Dave McKay.
- - -
The Washington Post, Apr. 8, 1976, p. 96.
NEW ORLEANS, April 7 (AP)—Houston pitcher Joe Niekro struck out five men in the first inning, but catcher Cliff Johnson committed five passed balls to let in two Minnesota runs, which helped the Twins to a 10-3 exhibition victory over the Astros in the Superdome today.
Houston . . . 000 100 110 – 3 13 2
Minnesota . . . 203 010 40x – 10 11 0
Niekro, Rondon (5), Barlow (8), and Johnson, Humphrey (7), Goltz, Luebber (8), Pazik (8), Campbell (9) and Wynegar, Roof (9). W—Goltz, L—Niekro. HR—Watson.
- - -
WHPratt (talk) 00:49, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

I felt it was time to add this detail. Some may find it too trivial due to the exhibition nature, but it remains our only major league example. It was the final spring training game of the year, which suggests that the rosters had been trimmed to mostly legitimate big leaguers. WHPratt (talk) 13:20, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Pitchers want to strike out as many as possible?

I am not sure this is universally true: some pitchers get outs by inducing batters to hit ground balls. If you can get a batter to ground out on the first or second pitch, you can keep your pitch count down and perhaps remain effective longer than a strikeout pitcher, who of necessity must pitch at least three pitches to a batter. Wschart (talk) 05:01, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Depends on the pitcher and the game situation. It does remind me of what Crash Davis told Nuke LaLoosh in Bull Durham: "Strikeouts are fascist. Throw ground balls, they're more democratic." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:22, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Pitches thrown for contact may be more strenuous than fastball pitches for strikeouts. Strikeouts are the safest ways to get outs for almost any pitcher. Nolan Ryan, an extreme strikeout pitcher, had one of the longest careers ever for a pitcher. See also Walter Johnson and Randy Johnson.

Of course it is true that strikeouts often involve knuckleball and sinker pitches. Knuckleball pitches are difficult to hit, which explains Phil Niekro. Sinkerball pitches usually result in groundouts if hit, and they get many swings-and-misses because they look like the non-descript pitch that batters love to hit for long fly balls (especially home runs) before they sink low into the strike zone or completely out of it.

Most pitchers would rather get a double play than a strikeout should the situation arise.Pbrower2a (talk) 18:07, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm confused...

It seems every time I try to read anything about baseball I am instantly confused. As far as I can gather, "strikeout" is a bad thing for the batter, meaning that he is dismissed without scoring (I suppose). However, the article does not seem to explain what happens if, on the third strike, the batter hits the ball properly, or smashes it out of the ground, or does whatever the batter is "supposed" to do. According to what the article says, that would still be a "strikeout", which doesn't seem to make sense to me. 86.160.220.139 (talk) 13:50, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

A strikeout means that the batter fails, and records an out. The batter does not reach base, and so cannot score (but see the rules section of the article for special circumstances). A strike is any pitched ball which is not successfully struck or is not a ball (see strike zone), except for the third strike of an at bat, in which a strike is any ball that is either missed if swung at, or in the strike zone but not swung at by the batter (that is, a foul ball does not count as a strike or a ball if the batter already has two strikes). Mindmatrix 14:33, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your reply. Would it be possible to make it clear in the article that a "strike" is a ball that is not successfully struck? It is very unobvious to people who don't understand baseball because one naturally associates "striking" with "hitting". As far as I can see, this article does not mention this vital piece of information at all, and the link to "strike zone" is also unhelpful in this regard. (If "strike" is to be redirected to "strike zone" then the latter article needs a clear definition of "strike" pretty near the top.) 86.160.222.57 (talk) 17:06, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I'll try to address this issue in the next few days, and clarify the concept in general while I'm at it. Mindmatrix 00:49, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I tweaked the lead to distinguish the difference between a pitcher throwing a strike from a batter being charged with one. Agree that a strike requires more explanation still.—Bagumba (talk) 02:58, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I've updated the text. Is the concept clearer with my recent addition? Are clarifications or elucidations needed? Mindmatrix 17:59, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

The lead is a little better now, but words like "charged" and "strike" aren't entirely clear to readers missing the cultural reference (which, as a Brit, I certainly am :-)

I think I understand -- that you get pitched at three times and, if you fail to hit the ball on any of those the times, you're out -- but I'm basing that on having seen American films with baseball in, not what the article says to me.

-- OwenBlacker (Talk) 17:49, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

• "charged with three strikes" means nothing to anyone who doesn't already understand what it means. Why can't it be explained in language that everyone can understand that a strikeout occurs when the batter fails to hit the ball three times in a row? Maybe that wording could be improved, but almost anything that gives the general idea is better than "charged with three strikes". 31.53.244.242 (talk) 19:30, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

I had forgotten to change the introduction. I've modified it to "accumulates three strikes during an at bat". Is this better? Mindmatrix 22:37, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

The trouble still is that the meaning of "strike" is completely unobvious to people who are not familiar with the game. "accumulates three strikes" sounds as if they hit the ball three times, whereas I believe it actually means they failed to hit the ball three times? Is it not possible to say this? 31.53.244.242 (talk) 23:54, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

I arrived here as a result of a redirect from 'strike'. 'Strike' seems to be an important concept in baseball, but after a good hour of spade-work, it is not much clearer to me what is meant by a 'strike'. I think it would be helpful if someone who understood baseball would (a) create an article called 'Strike'; and (b) change all of the redirects from 'strike' -> 'strikeout' to point to this new article.

I am a brit; I understand cricket. I find americana entertaining and engaging, but wikipedia has failed in helping me to understand baseball. MrDemeanour (talk) 16:16, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

@MrDemeanour It's not only the meaning of the word, strike can also mean crossing something out, thus leading to "striking out." The issue is that a "strike" can be accumulated in more than one way, not just failing to hit 3 pitches. First of all a batter starts with an empty or 0-0 "count" which consists of "balls" and "strikes." A ball is a pitch outside the strike zone that the batter doesn't swing at, if they swing and miss such a pitch it becomes a strike. If there are no strikes in the count and a batter hits the baseball into foul territory (outside the fair field of play) it counts as a strike until two strikes occur against the batter, then fouls are no longer counted as strikes. A swing and miss of a pitch is a strike no matter where the ball is thrown toward home plate; But if the batter doesn't swing at all, the pitch must pass through the "strike zone" to be a strike. Additionally, if a player keeps fouling the pitches out of play, they get as many attempts as it takes to hit the baseball fair or strikeout, there are exceptions but you'll need to read about the Bunt (baseball). If the pitcher throws 4 "balls" out of the strike zone and the batter doesn't swing at them, he gets a "walk" and can freely take 1st base, these balls don't have to be consecutive and neither do strikes. I suggest reading more about the strike zone and Count (baseball)

• As a side note, think of it as a game where you have 3 lives marked as OOO on a board, you swing and miss one for a strike now you have two lives XOO, You foul the second for a strike now its XXO, you keep fouling but since you have 2 against you, you're still alive. Then you don't swing when it passes through the proper strike zone, now its XXX and a line is drawn through it, "striking it out," (also if you did swing and miss). I hope I was clear enough. But I'm sure my explanation is too jumbled for inclusion in the article as is. Persistent Corvid (talk) 05:13, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

destigmatization of the stikeout

I have seen some references on this already, but over the past 10 years, there has been a huge reduction in the stigma of a strikeout as managers and sabermatricians have discovered that a strike out is no worse than any other out that fails to advance a better. This is notable because it coincides with the rise in power hitting as more batters are willing to risk a strike out to hit a home run. Will post references as I collect them. Eric the fever (talk) 02:21, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

An extreme power hitter can get away with a high number of strikeouts. A singles hitter can't. Three singles, or two singles and a walk preceding them or sandwiched between the singles is good for scoring a run. A home run is an instant run.

This is worth remembering in post-season play. Against the bad pitching staffs that never reach post-season play, it's fairly easy to get a combination of three walks and singles to score a run, and add two more singles in the inning to get two more runs. Against the sorts of pitchers who end up in most post-season games it is much more difficult to put multiple hits and walks (at least three of them) together to score one run. Although such pitchers are less likely to throw home run pitches, they are more likely to give up runs as solo home runs. Pbrower2a (talk) 22:25, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Baseball assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Strikeout/Comments (baseball), and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

In the section about 4 strike outs per inning, the author claims "In addition, individual strikeouts are simply far more common, now generally occurring in about one out of eight plate appearances, rather than in about one out of six as in the 1950's,". Perhaps I'm missing something, but one out of eight is less than one out of six, not more, thus the sentence makes no sense. Striking out one of eight batters out of 27 (a perfect game assuming all others flew out or were forced out at first) would result in 3.375 strikeouts. Striking out one of six would result in 4.5 strikeouts.

Last edited at 02:26, 24 June 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 14:24, 10 October 2016 (UTC)