Talk:Lana Del Rey

RfC about proposed controversy section

Should this section on controversies surrounding Del Rey be included in the article? KyleJoan^talk 14:49, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Controversies

Del Rey has been the subject of multiple controversies. In May 2020, she attracted criticism for an Instagram post in which she defended herself against accusations of glamorizing abuse in part by naming other female artists, mostly women of color, and citing their respective successes with works about "imperfect sexual relationships". Del Rey responded to the criticism by stating that her remarks "were taken out of context" and that the artists she'd listed "were among her favorites". In the same month, she received further criticism after posting a video of looters during the George Floyd protests.

Del Rey's response

In addition, if you support the inclusion of the controversies section, annotate which of the two wordings detailing Del Rey's response you prefer:

A: Del Rey responded to the criticism by stating that her remarks "were taken out of context" and that the artists she'd listed "were among her favorites".

B: Del Rey responded to the criticism that race was the theme of her post by saying "To be clear because I knowwwwww you love to twist things. I fucking love these singers and know them. That is why I mentioned them," and "when I said people who look like me — I meant the people who don’t look strong or necessarily smart, or like they’re in control etc."

References

Survey

• Support version B: I think it is best to give her full response to the "look like her" statement which was tied to the views on feminism already mentioned in this article. This particular statement was a major point of contention. —DIYeditor (talk) 15:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support section inclusion and A as proposer. These controversies surrounding Del Rey have been documented extensively in reliable sources, so including the section is appropriate per WP:DUE. Regarding how to phrase her response, I find a simple, clear account per a reliable source more effective than unnecessarily lengthy direct quotes. KyleJoan^talk 16:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support Version B It's better as it is her own statement. ~ HAL333 21:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
• Neither Frankly this is not encyclopedic content at all. This is fodder for stan Twitter. Trillfendi (talk) 03:43, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support B per KyleJoan and HAL333 - Given the extensive sources/attention on this I'd say this is encyclopedic, IMHO we should include her whole response not just snippets. –Davey2010^Talk 19:45, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support B per points raised above. Idealigic (talk) 23:10, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Sourcing and interpretation for recent comments on feminism

The section on "Social Views" currently contains the following statement:

"As of 2020, Del Rey has identified herself as a feminist and has voiced her support for a third wave of feminism."

This statement is sourced to an Instagram post (primary source) with the following text concerning feminism:

“Let this be clear, I’m not not a feminist -but there has to be a place in feminism for women who look and act like me – the kind of woman who says no but men hear yes – the kind of women who are slated mercilessly for being their authentic, delicate selves, the kind of women who get their own stories and voices taken away from them by stronger women or by men who hate women.”

The use of the double negative ("I'm not not a feminist") and immediately following with a qualifying statement implying that there isn't a "place" for her in feminism is not exactly an unambiguous statement of "identification" as a feminist. The text of the original source is very informal (spelling errors, punctuation errors and loose formatting) and it's not necessarily clear if the use of "not not" is an intentional double negative, a typo of repeating a "not" which was intended to appear once, or a typo of turning what was intended as a "now" into a "not". Without secondary sources to interpret the meaning of this sentence and contextualize it in Del Rey's public history, I don't think it is appropriate to use it in the article the way it is used now. The semantic content is not apparent from the primary source.

The statement that Del Rey "voiced her support for a third wave of feminism" is also (potentially) confusing to the reader and might require further qualification or contextualization than the current text has. The currently-cited source actually does not discuss any "waves" of feminism, but they are discussed in another primary source (https://www.instagram.com/p/CAghpnsJ8Sm/). The following text is relevant:

"...I want to say that what I was writing about was the importance of self advocacy for the more delicate and often dismissed, softer female personality, and that there does have to be room for that type in what will inevitably become a new wave/3rd wave of feminism that is rapidly approaching. Watch!"

Based on this primary source, there are two issues with the text that currently appears in the Wikipedia article. The first is of Del Rey's "support" for a third wave of feminism, which is again not clear from the source material. Del Rey says that a "third wave" of feminism is "inevitable" and that it needs "room for [her] type". Saying that something is inevitable is not equivalent to saying that you support it. The usage of the term "third wave" in reference to something that is "rapidly approaching" (i.e. in the future) is also potentially confusing to readers of the Wikipedia article since the current scholarly and popular consensus is that there have already been a third and fourth wave of feminism. Secondary sources should be added to contextualize and explain how Del Rey's conception of the history of feminism fits with the conception found in other Wikipedia articles.

I therefore propose the following re-writing of the section in the Wikipedia article:

'As of 2020, Del Rey wrote that she was "not not a feminist" and expressed a belief that a "new wave" of feminism characterized by validation of female fragility "is rapidly approaching."[instapost1,instapost2]'

104.13.110.123 (talk) 16:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Poetry

The word poet is regularly added to the infobox or the introduction paragraph. I am aware she will soon be releasing a collection of poems, but even after that, her Wikipedia entry should not present her as a poet. It is not what she is known for and only creates confusion. Unless she actively pursues poetry by putting out successive other publications and gains recognition as a poet in her own right with some consensus in the field of literature, it is inaccurate to describe her as a poet. AleXMetz^{❯❯❯Reach me!} 18:26, 3 June 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexandrelussier (talk • contribs)

She has regularly stated that poetry was her first passion. The fact that she didn't just released her first collection, but also announced a second one coming out March 2021 is enough to add poet to her infobox. It's like when celebrities do this one time design with some brand and you have them being called fashion designers on their infoboxes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.106.22.34 (talk) 10:27, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Here’s what I think. There is no question about it, the publication of del Rey’s collection of poems, Violet Bent Backwards Over the Grass, is worthy of mention on her Wikipedia page. For instance, the upcoming publication of her poetry collection is already covered in the section titled: 2020: Chemtrails over the Country Club and poetry collections. It might be too early (or maybe not) but creating a section dedicated to her ventures into poetry could be suitable. However, in an encyclopedia, we need to be careful and balanced when using classifications. I think Lana del Rey has yet to reach the notability threshold that would justify the addition of “poet” to her occupations. Therefore, I opine that we should refrain from presenting her as a poet in the infobox, or in the lead section. In the editing history, one user explains why he believes "poet" should be added to Del Rey's occupations. Here's what it says:

"With the launch of the Violet Bent Backwards Over the Grass audiobook, Lana is officially a poet, as the book is composed of poems written by herself. This is undeniable. Several websites wrote about it, she received expert reviews about the audiobook. We cannot hide the fact that she is a poet just because she is not famous as a poet. And to be honest, it is noticeable how the audiobook stood out in online sales, so we cannot say that she is not recognized as a poet. And later, as a writer."Misscupcakke's Revision of "Lana Del Rey"

I thinkt it's imoportant to clarify that no one denies that del Rey is putting out a collection of poems. That’s an incontestable fact. This is not what I'm questioning here. The user refers to “expert reviews” but unfortunately doesn't provide the sources to corroborate. If you're in possession of such sources, you should provide them without hesitations, the page will only be more accurate for it. I’ve searched to see if I couldn’t find the reviews in question. Indeed, several articles have been written about Del Rey's collection of poems and published on diverse platforms. Still, among all the publications I was able to gather, in terms of source quality, none would have been considered as highly reliable.Furthermore, as I’m writing this, I am not able to find a single literature-centric publication mentioning it. In all truth, up tp now, most of the media coverage it received took the form of features merely advertising the recent release of the audiobook and foreshadow the September release of the hardcover. The newspaper The Guardian and the online publications The Independent and Pitchfork, all published reviews; as of now, these sources are arguably the most reliables. Finally, the user writes that “we cannot hide the fact that she is a poet just because she is not famous as a poet”—ay, there's the rub. Indeed, this is precisely the reason why I believe it would be inaccurate to present her as a poet.

All this had me wondered how many Wikipedia articles belonged, at the same time, to these two categories: singer-songwriters and poets. An advance search on Wikipedia for bioraphies of person attached to the two produces a modest number of hits. I believe this speaks volumes about how balanced we need to be when we allocate a category, an occupations, or any other classifier, within an encyclopedia. It is also pretty revelatory to observe who are the members of this very select group, so here are a few of them.

• Bob Dylan authored numerous publications of all sorts and was the recipient of the Nobel Prize in Literature in 2016.
• Patti Smith published her 25th book in 2019.
• Nick Cave has published nine books. He wrote some collections of poems, as well as some novels and essays. He also ventured into screenwriting.
• Jim Morrison has published some collection of poems at the turn of the ’70s. Some editors later published another part of his writings posthumously.
• Tupac Shakur has not published any collection of poems, yet scholars have recognized the importance of his work as a lyricist. Several renowned universities offer entire classes that focus on his writings.

Honestly, albeit I have a fragmented knowledge of these artists' production, I am not a fan of any of them by any means. I have never been; I don't think I'll ever be either. I'm mentioning it not to give the impression that I'm engaged in a partisan debate. It is absolutely not the case. I merely pick them because they are great models of artists who have gained recognition from the music industry, who are part of pop culture, but whose work also has been legitimized by authorities within the field of literature. It illustrates how the validation process isn't identical in both spheres. It also shows that, no matter how much an artist is lauded and adored, it doesn't mean that the appreciation for his work is readily commutable to all disciplines for the sole reason he or she is a celebrity. Having said that, I still recognize the important contributions these artists have made to the arts and I totally respect them. At this point it's only a question of personal preferences. At any rate, I just wanted to underline that beyond their legendary stature, these figures all have something in common, and it is the academic appraisal their respective productions have received.

In conclusion, I've garnered some excerpts from the Manual of Style of Wikipedia to support my rationale.

I Wikipedia's best practice regarding the lead paragraph. (The same practice applies to the infobox)

"The lead sentence should describe the person as they are commonly described in reliable sources. The noteworthy position(s) or role(s) the person held should usually be stated in the opening paragraph. However, avoid overloading the lead paragraph with various and sundry roles; instead, emphasize what made the person notable. Incidental and non-noteworthy roles (i.e. activities that are not integral to the person's notability) should usually not be mentioned in the lead paragraph."

II Wikipedia's best practice for biographies, to establish a person's notability.

1. The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for such an award several times.
2. The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in a specific field.
3. The person has an entry in the Dictionary of National Biography or similar publication.

III Wikipedia's best practice for biographies of creative professionals (poets are part of that subcategory), to establish a person's notability in his or her field.

1. The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors.
2. The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory, or technique.
3. The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the primary subject of an independent and notable work (for example, a book, film, or television series, but usually not a single episode of a television series) or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews.
4. The person's work (or works) has: (a) become a significant monument, (b) been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) won significant critical attention, or (d) been represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums.°°°° AleXMetz∆°^°˚TALK 21:06, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Hello. I read the comment above and I definitely agree with many things you say. I really don't think Del Rey is currently famous as a poet, but it seems weird not to portray her as a poet in her wikipedia.

Let's talk about profession. There are many examples of celebrities who are portrayed as a singer and actress, but in fact she is mostly known as a singer or as an actress. This is normal. It is not just because the person is better known for one profession that it negates the other. I believe from the bottom of my heart that when reading his own Wikipedia, Del Rey would love to see "poet" written.

As I said above, there are many things said that are true. What I don't understand, exactly, is what would change if had a simple word "poet" added on Wikipedia. For example, in Brazilian Wikipedia, we already have Del Rey as a poet.

Besides, will she release a book and will you again prevent her from being classified as a writer? Which again, is strange. She is clearly a poet and will be a writer, has two releases scheduled, I don't understand how it would make people confused when reading "singer, songwriter, writer and poet" in her wikipedia if she really is. (obviously, the word writer should only be added after the book is released).

Anyway, as a fan, I believe that would not change anything by two more words on the page, being consistent with what Del Rey actually does, which is singing, composing and writing poems. I also believe that there are many other people who think like me.

Regardless of all this, if you really maintain the decision not to put Lana Del Rey as a poet, I believe that eventually it will happen. At one time or another she will become a great poet and that will appear on your Wikipedia, it is inevitable.

Finally, forgiveness for my English. I hope you can read and understand what I meant.Misscupcakke (talk) 17:32, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Factually, I agree with what you say, and you’re utterly right when you say that lately, Del Rey has been focusing on the publication of her writings. Yet, I think we ought to be rigorous. For the same reasons, I’ve detailed above. But chiefly, we need to apply the best practice detailed within the Manual of Style.

Before I go further, I need to come back to something you’ve written in your last paragraph. You say, “If you really maintain the decision [. . .]”. Let me start by saying that even though our opinions might differ, my goal is not to oppose you personally. I want to stress on this; I believe in no way this decision is mine to make, nor that I have more authority on this than anyone. I’m only voicing my opinion, albeit one informed by the reading I’ve made of the Wikipedia Manual of Style to try to stay as objective as possible. Before we add “poet” to the page, I believe we should reach some form of consensus. If a majority of users think we should add it, I will happily comply with the decision. We could also address ourselves to an editor with more seniority for counsel. But sincerely, I’m not out on a mission to oppose you. That said, I want to address a couple of things you’ve pointed out to express, maybe a little better, where I stand.

Neutrality

One of the most fundamental characteristics of an encyclopedia is its neutrality. Henceforth, we should completely detach ourselves emotionally from the task. In the case of pages about people, it shouldn’t make any difference if you are the most dedicated fan of the subject or, on the contrary, if the page is about someone you loathe. Above all, an article on Wikipedia should never be to laud neither to degrade someone. Fact-based evidence with references to various sources. Finally, the fact that Del Rey might love, or not, to see “poet” written on her Wikipedia page is utterly irrelevant and not something we should consider. Ever. In contrast, steering away from these considerations is what is required.

Organization

Organizing the information is of capital importance. To maintain its efficiency, Wikipedia relies on a complex classification system detailed in the Manual of Style. Users need to conform to these guidelines to the best of their abilities. You're arguing that adding one word to the page wouldn’t make a difference, and you're right: it would not. Though, it would if the same reasoning was applied all over Wikipedia. Feelings, inclinations, or opinions should not influence these choices.

Recognition

You've indicated that singers are sometimes also credited as actors. Indeed, this happens frequently. These categories have proven to be more permeable. Even though they required different skills, one exists in the vicinity of the other. I’d also argue within the realm of celebrities, without the shadow of a doubt, singers, actors, and actresses are, by far, the most ostentatious representation of pop culture. They became so ubiquitous that lines get blurred. Also, the crossover is so frequent that I think it became banal. But you’re right, the transit between both is less guarded.

The path to recognition is not always the same across different media and disciplines. In the context of pop culture, the legitimization process lies with the public. Nevertheless, it is usually not the case in literature. On the one hand, there’s the fast-paced, showy pop culture powered by powerful financiers with the means to propel the career of someone virtually unknown to the dizzying peaks of fame in matters of months. On the other hand, in the literary world, recognition doesn’t usually happen overnight as your first book gets published. In light of that, it is not surprising that these two spheres of artistic expression function in very different ways.

In literature, an author is getting recognition from his peers: authors, literary critics, academics, researchers, etc. This is a sharp contrast with mainstream artists for whom record-breaking is often the path to recognition. For instance, topping the charts, breaking sale records, making incendiary statements, or giving exuberant performances. In many ways, this type of competition resembles professional sports.

Also, let us not forget that what interests us is not literature, but poetry, a medium even more arcane with even fewer practitioners. In these circles, fame power has very little to do with recognition. Authors are judged solely on their body of work. How unique is their voice? How innovative is their poetry? Is their poetry a good representation of the period? And other aspects inherent to their writings. Exceptions aside, to gain recognition in literature, publishing a single book is assuredly not enough. We've all known dilettante dabbling in poetry, but great poetry requires commitment and consistency.

Proposition

Del Rey has yet to release her first collection of poems at the end of September (I know the audiobook’s out). After the release of this book, Del Rey will reach a total of 1 publication. With that number in mind, I think we can all agree that it would be hasty to define her as a poet. It makes much more sense to wait and give her time to grow and publish some more collections (if she ever does), and then reconsider.

Just for the sake of illustration, a way to test that could be to imagine her Wikipedia page presenting her solely as a poet:

Elizabeth Woolridge Grant (born June 21, 1985), known by her pen name Lana Del Rey, is an American poet.

Even if this is an incomplete representation of who she is, my point is that if she had gained recognition as a poet, the description should still feel somewhat accurate. I’ve been actively following Lana Del Rey’s career and releases for years, and this description would seem extremely far-fetched to me. And for anyone who knows of Lana Del Rey, but does not systematically follow her every move, I think it would feel like a gross misrepresentation and even appear flat-out wrong.

I'm only proposing we refrain from adding "poet" to her occupations in the infobox and the intro paragraph. I'm not saying we should remove every allusion to poetry. On the contrary, I believe we have to talk about it. For the moment, section 1.6. covers her impending publications. Maybe we should add a section dedicated to poetry after the launch.

In conclusion, to be clear, my position on this subject has absolutely nothing to do with my appreciation of Del Rey’s work. These types of considerations should not rely on anything other than methodology and objectivity. I’m not trying to assert if Del Rey is or isn’t a poet or whether she is or isn’t a talented writer. All I’m saying is that literature is a different animal than pop culture. The mere act of publishing alone doesn’t make you an established poet. Tons of authors publish books every year, but some are more impactful than others. Del Rey might be a celebrity, but she did not get any recognition from the field of literature yet. In my opinion—and also according to the Wikipedia Manual of Style—this is the requirement.°°°°AleXMetz∆°^°˚TALK 02:29, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2020

change "As of 2020, Del Rey has identified herself as a feminist and has voiced her support for a third wave of feminism." to "In May 2020, Del Rey identified herself as a feminist in an Instagram post and voiced her support for a third wave of feminism." YehudaHaNasi (talk) 17:28, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. TheImaCow (talk) 17:46, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 December 2020

Please add Stevie Nicks under associated acts. Both have a song “Beautiful People and Beautiful Problems”. 2600:1700:3990:4350:F108:3CF9:FAFF:F9F8 (talk) 18:38, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

 Not done:, the associated acts field is specifically not for "the One-time collaboration for a single song" --Paul ❬talk❭ 18:28, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Written Like a Gossip Column

I made some changes to ensure this page does not look like a gossip column. Who she dates is her personal life and really should not be included in the career section as it is not her personal life. The only way to include that is if you have a section for her personal life. It is only a rumor about her being engaged, one which she has not confirmed directly. Also, how a media source interprets her words is not a controversy pertaining to Lana Del Rey herself, but the media outlet that chose to misinterpret her. That kind of controversy should instead be included on the page for the media source that misquoted her as that is poor and inaccurate reporting on the source in question (Complex), rather than Lana. Bias media reporting especially when it comes from music publications and celebrity gossip sources is not reliable and does not meet proper journalistic standards. Also when it comes to religion she was raised Catholic but that is not the same as being a practicing Catholic. This also pertains to her personal life and no such personal life section exists here. --108.54.32.185 (talk) 14:00, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

The "Life and career" format of her biography implies that her personal life is included in the entry. See Taylor Swift and Katy Perry. WP operates on notable media sources; you can mention Del Ray's response and multiple perspectives offered by reputable outlets, but controversy is relevant.--Bettydaisies (talk) 19:41, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

These edits are baseless. Another thing that damages the credibility is the failure to spell her name correctly. But hey, lets allow wikipedia to be a place for radical feminists to smear women they see as a threat. --108.54.32.185 (talk) 20:52, 18 January 2021 (UTC)