Talk:Antifa (United States)/Archive 24

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Images

Davide King removed the images, with no explanation other then to gain consensus a strange and completely random reason. The images both of the black block and of ICE deportations both relate to sections of either of Antifa black block tactics or Antifa protesting against ICE deportations. So does anybody have anything to add to the images? Vallee01 (talk) 05:11, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Vallee01, you are the one adding the images, so the onus is on you. I think original research applies to images too, or at least we should be careful they are about, or relevant to, the topic. You have also been reverted by Arms & Hearts too, so it was not just me. Let us follow BRD. I do not really have an opinion on this and I would like to hear what other users think too. Davide King (talk) 05:16, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Davide King the other image was a completely different image and also not an anti-fascist image, that revert has nothing to do with current images. Both have anti-fascist symbols and both are directly related to the text. One based onto anti-fascist black block tactics with the image of an antifa black block, the other image relating to ICE deportations with the image being a antifa protest. Vallee01 (talk) 05:35, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

That still does not seem to answer Arms & Hearts' concerns that "this photo seems to be from the DisruptJ20 action, which isn't generally considered to have had anything to do with antifa and isn't mentioned in this article". Are these new images you added relevant to antifa, or only to anarchism? This one is "[a]narchist anti-fascist black bloc demo in support of Liebig 34" but there is no mention of Liebig 34, "an anarchist squat in the Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg district of Berlin", in the article; so it is not relevant to an article about the American antifa. Davide King (talk) 05:57, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

File:AnarchistProBikeDemo.jpg is clearly irrelevant to this article, at it's from Leipzig, Germany (I'd remove the Cologne image that's still in the article for the same reason). File:Anarchist anti deporation protest.jpg would seem a reasonable addition to me, since the banner says Antifa Anarchist Bloc. FDW777 (talk) 08:25, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree that File:Anarchist anti deporation protest.jpg is a good addition, and thank Vallee01 for uploading and adding it. A banner that says antifa on it is clearly relevant and there's no doubt it's from the U.S. (I had to look up "FTTP" though, my grasp of anarchist lingo isn't what it used to be). There might conceivably be some scope for an historical image of German or other non-U.S. anti-fascists in the Background section, but I can't see any basis for a contemporary non-U.S. image like File:AnarchistProBikeDemo.jpg (it could be a good addition to Antifa (Germany) though). To the extent that File:Antifa 2008 Köln.jpg really just serves to illustrate the flag design it's not as bad, but could perhaps be replaced with the less clear File:Boston George Floyd Protest, Washington St. 4.jpg with File:2017.03.04 Pro-Trump Rallies Washington, DC USA 00360 (33211221516).jpg. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 09:24, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

That makes sense, the image of German antifa isn't a good addition for antifa in the united states. Vallee01 (talk) 09:41, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Regarding the Cologne image, I assume (possibly wrongly) it's an image that's been in the article a long time, from when less free images were available to illustrate the US movement. But since File:Anarchist anti deporation protest.jpg contains the logo, I would consider it preferable to replace the Cologne image with that one, or if there's similar images available they can be considered too. Replacing the non-US images with US images where possible seems sensible to me. FDW777 (talk) 10:52, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

The difference between black bloc protests and antifa is extremely hard to tell the difference, in fact the difference is non-existent. The difference being if people bring antifa flags it is portrayed by the media as antifa, if not they are portrayed usually as anarchists, therefor it is difficult for us to find what images fit. This image as an example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mobili/32093935610/in/album-72157677976251391/, licensed freely has antifa flags however is protesting the election of Donald Trump, therefor is it a good image? I don't know, I think it is however. Vallee01 (talk) 22:14, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Vallee01, the largest banner in that photo is for the Metropolitan Anarchist Coordinating Council (MACC). The second-largest is for No Borders No Nations (with 1312, in the top left corner, the numerical representation of A.C.A.B (All Cops Are Bastards). The banner that says "Make racists afraid again" uses the three arrows that the Iron Front used in the 1930s, and they were decidedly NOT antifa at the time. I can't quite figure out the banner on the left, but I don't see anything at all that says "antifa". Vexations (talk) 01:36, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Vexations Indeed Vexations but there is clearly an anti-fascist flag clear within the frame, the black representing anarchism and the red socialism. Three arrows as in the iron front is an explicitly anti-fascist logo and is used by antifa groups for that purpose. That's the issue the difference between black bloc protests and antifa protests are nearly identical, there is no clear definition of what is an antifa protest is, I think the consensus we are going off here is "Do they have antifa flags?" Which is unclear as in anarchist antifa flags are also present so they follow the same principle, anarchist protests almost always have antifa flags and symbols present but that doesn't make it an antifa protest, everyone there supports the ideology antifa but they may be protesting for some other reason. "Make racists afraid again" also is an explicitly anti-fascist saying, anarchists use it but again it's impossible to tell the difference between the two because they are the same. Vallee01 (talk) 01:44, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Vallee01, not everything anti-fascist is antifa. The Iron Front was antifascist, but they were not antifa.The two flag logo, the red flag in front of the back flag, an adaptation of the original two flags (representing socialism and communism) comes from the Antifaschistisches Infoblatt (since 1987, see https://www.antifainfoblatt.de/ausgabe/aib-2 for an example). It has since been adopted, with variations, by various groups in all kinds of combinations. In the photo mentioned above, they have placed the red flag in the foreground, and lack the ring bearing the saying "antifascist action" that one would typically associate with antifa. It is original research to say "here's a photo of antifa". We see a number of different groups, one which may be No Borders No Nations (that's a thing) or something using a logo that looks like something antifa uses sometimes. Vexations (talk) 02:09, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Anarchist black block at DisruptJ20

Vexations This has nothing to do with the current discussion, "antifa" stands for anti-fascist action, antifa usually means a specific kind of militant anarchist anti fascists. The three arrows is an anti-fascist symbol, it is mostly used as a symbol of antifa organizations but also see use by other unrelated organization, indeed three arrows is not a explicitly antifa symbol, however it is an anti fascist logo. It is also combined with other anarchists banners and anti fascist flags. The original Antifashite Aktion flag was used by the German Communist party in the 1930s. The two flags representing simply state communism. The new logo was created by Greek anarchist and changed the flag to black. Modern antifa organizations in the US are almost explicitly completely anarchist I have access through my university IUPUI, if you would like me to give you access to the PDF ask. It is an anarchist protest nobody has an issue with that, all images are anarchist there are no objections under that ground, that is undeniable the image is from DisruptJ20. The issue to the image is that it is unclear if it is an anarchist or anti-fascist protest. It IS an anarchist protest it was organized by the [NYC Anarchist Coordination Council], and on there banners there it is actually written. We just need to make clear if it was an antifa or anarchist protest, despite having antifa symbols the protest may have not been organized for explicit anti fascist purposes. Vallee01 (talk) 02:33, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

There is current agreement that File:Anarchist anti deporation protest.jpg, is a good addition and indeed is due to the fact it states "anarchist antifa block", and they are protesting against ICE, therefor it is a positive addition to add it. The protest in Leipzig currently been stated to be a negative addition due to the fact this is an article of antifa in the United States, therefor are we in agreement on File:Anarchist anti deporation protest.jpg? Vallee01 (talk) 02:44, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Vallee01 If you want to establish consensus on something, it would be helpful if you could articulate it more clearly. I thought you were proposing that "https://www.flickr.com/photos/mobili/32093935610/in/album-72157677976251391/ is a good image". You didn't make explicit WHAT it is a good image of, but from the context, I assumed you meant "black block". Let me make it very clear: You do not have consensus for that. Now you're proposing something else, "agreement on File:Anarchist anti deporation protest.jpg", but what exactly are we supposed to agree on?

Thanks for the offer to send copies of paywalled articles, but I don't need it; I have legitimate access. Vexations (talk) 12:34, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Vexations I stated clearly that File:Inauguration Approach Frankling Park.jpg might be a good representation of a Black Block, and there is no consensus on this. Currently you have put in your opinion and I don't really know what it is, and I think it is a good representation for sections on Black Block or DisruptJ20 however I don't think the image fits here, so I agree with you on that. It was simply to demonstrate the difficulty in showing the difference between Black block protests, anarchist protests and Antifa protests as they often hard to tell apart.

In the discussion multiple users has stated File:Anarchist anti deporation protest.jpg is a good representation of antifa anti deportations and Abolish ICE protests, this isn't a "proposing something else" this is the main focus of the discussion. Stated clearly at the start of the discussion this isn't new. "Antifa protesting against ICE deportations." if you look at the diff the main image is clearly File:Anarchist anti deportation protest.jpg. The current discussion of the black block was a possible alternative. Users like FDW777 stated "But since File:Anarchist anti deportation protest.jpg contains the logo, I would consider it preferable to replace the Cologne image with that one." Other users like Arms & Hearts stated "I agree that File:Anarchist anti deportation protest.jpg is a good addition, and thank Vallee01 for uploading and adding it. A banner that says antifa on it is clearly relevant and there's no doubt it's from the U.S." Users like Davide King haven't voiced an opinion however it is clear it is a positive change.

If you have points to the contrary please share them. However wouldn't you state it is a good representation of antifa anti deportations? I mean it is a banner of Antifa flags with antifa slogans with text reading "Abolish ICE" so I think we can all agree it is a positive addition. The discussion of the image was on stated at the start of the talk, however let me state it again: The image is supposed to demonstrate an antifa protest against deportations, on a section about antifa opposition to deportations. The image is currently on the article something I believe is a positive change. Vallee01 (talk) 13:12, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Vallee01, it would help if you included the caption that you are proposing. In your diff the caption was: Antifa banner against ICE deportations. Is that still what you're proposing? I'd leave out ICE, because it's not mentioned. I think the photo was taken during the protest covered in this article: https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/02/18/supporters-of-refugees-and-immigrants-march-through-minneapolis so it would be appropriate to describe the event as a protest against deportations and the banner as representing the anarchist bloc within antifa, protesting deportations, the police (FTP and ACAB) and prisons (FTTP). Vexations (talk) 14:14, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

The protest was largely about abolishing ICE, however I agree that there is no need to have text on the image, it is generally unnecessary. Vallee01 (talk) 06:56, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

References

We shouldn't be using an article more than 3 years told to describe Antifa supporters

3 years can be a long time in the life of a social movement, especially given the upheaval in American society during that time. Doug Weller talk 17:23, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Why not? If we can show there has been changes, we can use those older sources to show how the perception and/or reality of the movement has changed. But we'd need new sources that show such a change first. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:37, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Sure, three years can feel like a long time, but it's all subjective. I can't see any reason to exclude sources because they're a few years old. Bacondrum (talk) 20:20, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I think it’s case by case. A high quality scholarly source or informed in-depth account would remain good, but a hastily put together clickbaity ill-informed “explainer” published in 2017 because antifa suddenly became newsworthy should be replaced by now with more informed and more expert-driven accounts. BobFromBrockley (talk) 21:41, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I looked for recent stories about antifa and they were mostly like this one from CBS. Little has changed in three years so we can keep the article updated by adding what little has happened in three years. I think they are dormant. The Rose City antifa website has had about a dozen articles in the past year and there is little coverage of recent antifa activity in reliable sources. In reporting the November 15 Sacramento MAGA demonstrations, mainstream media reported that antifa and other counter-demonstrators showed up, but I could only count three black bloc protestors in youtube videos. So the change is probably that their membership has declined from a few hundred to a few dozen, although it might be even smaller than that. We need however reliable sources to say that, and that may take time. TFD (talk) 04:10, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

History And Ideology

This text lifted from Antifa (Germany) belongs among the first paragraphs of the article, which obscures (deliberately?) the origins and dominant ideology of the movement:

The antifa movement has existed in different eras and incarnations, dating back to Antifaschistische Aktion, from which the moniker antifa came from. It was set up by the then-Stalinist Communist Party of Germany (KPD) during the late history of the Weimar Republic.

  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaredscribe (talk • contribs) 00:03, 5 December 2020 (UTC) 

Jaredscribe Got a citation for that claim? Bacondrum (talk) 00:10, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

After the forced dissolution in the wake of Machtergreifung in 1933, the movement went underground.[4] In the postwar era, Antifaschistische Aktion inspired a variety of different movements, groups and individuals in Germany as well as other countries which widely adopted variants of its aesthetics and some of its tactics. Known as the wider antifa movement, the contemporary antifa groups have no direct organisational connection to Antifaschistische Aktion.[5] text from Antifa (Germany) c.f. for references. Jaredscribe (talk) 09:20, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

The Federal_Office_for_the_Protection_of_the_Constitution states that the underlying goal of the antifa movement is "the struggle against the liberal democratic basic order" and capitalism.[2] C.f. Antifa (Germany) Jaredscribe (talk) 09:23, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Have any references mentioned this in connection with the American incarnation? FDW777 (talk) 11:15, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Objection: demanding the obvious. However, due to the real existence of WP:Systemic bias and this very article's obviously NON-WP:Neutral_point_of_view, I will just assume the objection is overruled and answer anyway, because I must. The "references that mention this in connection with the American incarnation", is YOUR OWN ARTICLE, which I AM NOT ALLOWED TO EDIT, second paragraph. Makes the same claim in other words, that "many individuals hold anti-capitalist and anti-state views". And cites "the historian" Mark Bray's "Anti-fascist Handbook" to reference that claim. Other commentators I also witness to confirm this claim, although it would be more accurate to expand the claim to "Many individuals and affinity groups hold anti-capitalist and anti-state views." I can prove this, if necessary, but so can you. If you want to. Bray's own book has the Antifaschistische_Aktion logo on the front, and his is the primary source that you've referenced. This group was a Stalinist front operating in Germany in the 30s for the de:KPD. Y'all are the advanced editors Template:U:Bacondrum and FDW777, and every other editor who reads this in silent complicity. I'm just a lowly newb who does not have permission to edit this article. Jaredscribe (talk) 08:20, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

So you're saying "No, references haven't mentioned this in connection with the American incarnation"? Good, then it's of no relevance to this article then. FDW777 (talk) 08:23, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Just to add some clarity. Nobody is suggesting individuals within the antifa movement do not hold anti-capitalist and anti-state views, the references say that which is why this article says that. But that does not mean this article needs to mention that the Stalinist Communist Party of Germany set up an entirely different organisation which formed 90 years ago. Which references say this is in any way relevant to this movement? FDW777 (talk) 11:36, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

• • On the contrary, I'm saying that the citations found in this very article mention this in connection with the American incarnation, and I cited one that is found in the lead. There are others that could be cited as well. The request for citations of material that is well-sourced and easily available strikes me as tendentious. But I gave a citation and an answer anyway. The refusal to understand it is one thing, the deliberate misquote of it is another. You have committed a straw man fallacy. This editing behavior leads me to the opinion that you are not in good faith. Ad nauseam request for citations, refusal to respond to the citations given, mischaracterizing the opposing argument. I will continue to WP:Assume good faith for other editors of this article.Jaredscribe (talk) 23:27, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

• Jaredscribe "due to the real existence of WP:Systemic bias and this very article's obviously NON-WP:Neutral_point_of_view"..."YOUR OWN ARTICLE, which I AM NOT ALLOWED TO EDIT"..."reads this in silent complicity" What? Are you attacking us? All I asked for is a citation for a claim. Please read WP:CIVIL and WP:NOPERSONALATTACKS. This page is for discussing article content not other editors. No one is interested in addressing any of your concerns while being subject to personal attacks. Bacondrum (talk) 20:47, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Allegation that this article violates WP:NPOV does not constitute a personal attack. Pointing out the very real difference in privelege between us does not amount to a personal attack. I'm a newb, restricted from editing this page, whereas you, Bacondrum, not only can edit the page but apparently know everyone there is to know ("noone is interested") and have administrative power or access to block me from wikipedia, as you threatened on my user page. Just like your accusations against me, my accusation against you pertains to editing behavior on wikipedia. Both are impersonal accusations, and in that sense valid. But mine is better evidenced. Yours is a red herring. My original claim stands, unless you can address it on the merits. Jaredscribe (talk) 23:29, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
• Jaredscribe, your bolded section is the very definition of not assuming good faith. Your very first sentence in this talk was assuming bad faith, when you accused editors here of deliberately obscuring the origins. Within a few exchanges you ended up red hot. I understand you're feeling frustrated by not being able to edit a handful of WP's 6 million articles, but hostility towards other editors is not going to make them anxious to work with you. For the record, we don't use Wikipedia articles as sources for other articles, per WP:CIRCULAR. —valereee (talk) 15:22, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

If there is a citation, there should be no difficultly in simply providing it now. Other than attempts to cite other Wikipedia article, the only citation I can see is where you claim the formation of the Antifaschistische Aktion in Germany ~90 years ago is somehow relevant to the American antifa movement because Bray's book has the logo of the former on the front This is a spurious argument, since Bray's book is not solely about the American antifa movement. That you cannot actually provide a reference confirming the relevance of the KBD to the American antifa movement proves beyond any doubt the former is not relevant to an article on the latter. FDW777 (talk) 15:47, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Valereee: User talk:Acroterion#Antifa sympathizers suppressing information is probably of relevance, where Jaredscribe launches into personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith simply because I reverted their attempt to add a link in a "See also" section that was already linked in the article. FDW777 (talk) 15:52, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

References

Bray's context quotes

Graywalls removed "Bray adds that '[i]t's important to understand that antifa politics, and antifa's methods, are designed to stop white supremacists, fascists, and neo-Nazis as easily as possible.' For Bray, '[t]he vast majority of their activities are nonviolent. They function in some ways like private investigators; they track neo-Nazi organizing across multiple social-media platforms.' In regard to doxing, Bray says that it is about 'telling people that they have a Nazi living down the street, or telling employers that they're employing white supremacists', adding that 'after Charlottesville, a lot of the repercussions that these khaki-wearing, tiki-torch white supremacists faced were their employers firing them and their families repudiating what they do.'" All of this was removed and dismissed as "not needed. excessive details." This reads more as them not liking scholars providing context or their analyses and conclusions. They already previously dismissed Bray as "biased" and not a "reliable source", even though this was discussed at length and explained by Arms & Hearts, who also thanked me for my addition. Incidentally, they also forgot to remove doxing from the lead as that was added here to the lead by Alcaios because of my addition about doxing. All of this can be better worded and paraphrased but I do not see how removal fixed or improved anything. Davide King (talk) 20:02, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Jared.h.wood included "Antifa is a response to fascist violence" as one of the four points reliable sources make (for context, the others are "Antifa is not an officially organized group", "Antifa is willing to commit crime, some violent" and "It is a fallacy to compare Antifa violence to white extremist violence"). I do not think the article clarifies or explains this enough. Bray was a start for that. Davide King (talk) 20:07, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't understand why you removed "doxing" from the lead, it's a well-documented practice. I don't even think that most Antifa activists would deny it. (ps: my addition has nothing to do with your recent edits – I noticed "doxing" was absent from the lead while reading an article[1] from the New Yorker). Regarding Bray, it's true that he is biased towards the left (he even describes himself as a "political organizer"), but it could be easily balanced by quoting more scholars rather than keeping on basing the entire WP article on his book (Bray is mentioned 21 times in the article, 4 times in the /ideology/ section alone). Alcaios (talk) 20:35, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

It's removed because it's been removed from the article. The lead summarises the article. This section appears to be objecting to the removal of the text from the article, which if restored would presumably result in it being restored to the lead as well. FDW777 (talk) 21:06, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

FDW777, exactly. I actually support the addition of Bray and hence of doxing to the lead. You are free to re-add my edits, including doxing to lead, if you agree with me. Alcaios, other than Bray, now removed, the only other mention of doxing was actually describing how antifa activists wear masks to avoid getting doxed. See "Antifa activists wear masks to hide their 'identity from protestors on the other side (who might dox people they disagree with) or from police and cameras' and for philosophical reasons such as the beliefs that 'hierarchies are bad and that remaining anonymous helps keep one's ego in check.'" Davide King (talk) 22:20, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

You can easily find sources that mention doxing among antifas (obviously, it is not restricted to antifascists: the far-right also doxes antifas). Besides Bray, the New Yorker article I mentioned takes the example of Rose City Antifa: The network focusses much of its energy on Internet activism: doing research online, identifying proponents of bigotry, and then publicly exposing—or “doxing”—them. Rose City Antifa spent part of its early years doxing people involved with Volksfront, an international racist gang headquartered in Portland. (...) Rose City Antifa doesn’t disclose how many members it has, but Sophie estimated that doxing investigations take up about a hundred hours per week. (...) Whenever people deemed worthy of doxing hold gatherings in public spaces, antifascists undertake to shut them down. Alcaios (talk) 00:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Alcaios, that article was discussed here, when I added it at Further reading. Arms & Hearts wrote: "Having read through it, I found it a tedious exercise in both-sidesism at best, and a very wilful and dangerous exoneration of the far right at worst. That's neither here nor there if we're citing it (and I think we should, especially on the wildfires conspiracy theory), but I don't think it belongs in the further reading section." Other users' comments are welcome. What do you actually propose as edit? Davide King (talk) 05:33, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

I have to say, I read that article when it came out, and I don't remember it being like that at all. And I just skimmed it again. Did we read the same article? The journalist who wrote it was literally in Portland in the streets with antifa, so he knows what he's talking about. And the New Yorker is decidedly not right-wing. Crossroads ^-talk- 06:04, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Crossroads, yeah, that is what I thought too. I hope Arms & Hearts can clarify that. The article is this, right? Perhaps they were referring to the paragraph about Gibson? Davide King (talk) 06:13, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Um those blow-by-blow is literally what encyclopedia is not meant to be. What are you trying to say @Crossroads:. It's been mentioned elsewhere Bray source is not neutral. While that doesn't preclude it from use, the editorial decision to include a bunch of "Bray said.. Bray said... Bray thinks... Bray this..." is a neutrality and due weight concern. Graywalls (talk) 07:00, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Graywalls, all sources are biased; what matters is whether they are reliable and Bray is. Bray, an actual expert of the movement per reliable sources, certainly holds more weight than non-expert journalists who propose opinions. I can agree that the wording is not perfect but you are essentially saying we should not use Bray when, alongside Vysotsky, he is part of the scholarly literature, which defines the topic. Davide King (talk) 20:59, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Ironically, we do not need to attribute it to him, since he is an actual expert, but we do so because we are using quotes. If we can turn quotes into paraphrased sentences, that would be better and avoid the repetition. The problem is that you are casting doubt on Bray as an actual expert and reliable source on the topic. Davide King (talk) 21:01, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Wow... You should read the article and make your own opinion. It's the New Yorker, not Breibart. I understand the concern about the growing white supremacist movement in the US, and I know that some people can be worried about the public image of groups who physically oppose them, but we're writing an encyclopedia... It has become very hard to work on these subjects since Trump won the 2016 election – that's a reason why I semi-retired this summer and chose to rather focus on European politics. Alcaios (talk) 12:06, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

@Davide King: I don't think that comment of mine is relevant here. I was opposed to listing it as further reading, not citing it – we cite disagreeable sources all the time, and couldn't write an encyclopaedia otherwise, and I've added citations of the piece to the Rose City Antifa article. I was opposed to listing it as further reading because that seems rather more like an endorsement, like we're saying that we think this piece is especially valuable or insightful, which I don't think it is. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 13:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Arms & Hearts, my bad for that. Alcaios, what are you referring or responding to? I even wrote I agree with Crossroads, but that was based on a misunderstanding because that discussion was adding it at Further reading. It seems that, again, it is only Graywalls who opposed my edits, so do you agree to reinstate them, including "doxing" in the lead, and perhaps using The New Yorker in the body too? We actually agree on citing it and the issue was based on a misunderstand, so I apologise if I caused any further misunderstanding. Which part of The New Yorker pieace are useful for the body and which proposed edit do you suggest? Davide King (talk) 20:55, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, it was not directed at you – I was giving a general opinion on the polarisation of US politics. The role of both a journalist and a WP contributor is not to "exonerate" anything or to prove that the "far-right or antifa are bad", but to provide a factual description of those movements. Alcaios (talk) 23:23, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Alcaios, incidentally, I did try to add more views (here) but I was reverted by Graywalls while Crossroads was more supportive and no other users expressed their thoughts. Davide King (talk) 05:25, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

• reading the discussion and looking at the content that was removed, I see no reason for the removal of the doxxing claims. Bacondrum (talk) 00:00, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

  Bacondrum, the problem is that the lead must follow the body and my addition about doxing was the only mention of it in the body. Can I restore it? I would note that The New Yorker seems to be writing about doxing in the context of the Torch Network (i.e. it refers to "[t]he [Torch] network" which "focusses much of its energy on Internet activism: doing research online, identifying proponents of bigotry, and then publicly exposing—or 'doxing'—them", not to the antifa movement in general, which my addition did) while Bray, whom I cited, referred to it as part of the broader movement, so it is stronger and the source itself I used stated "[d]oxing—publicly disclosing the identities of members of the fringe right—is a central tactic of antifa", not referring just to the Torch Network or Rose City Antifa as The New Yorker did. So can both edits be restored? Davide King (talk) 05:36, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

  https://ijoc.org/index.php/ijoc/article/view/10076: ... and strategies such as “doxxing,” in which one side exposes the actual identities and locations of its enemies. These tactics were all part of the digital arsenal of the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, and Antifa as these groups waged their respective online campaigns in 2017. (...) Among these, the practice of doxxing, most common in Antifa’s Twitter feed, exposes the identities, and sometimes locations, of adversaries. // https://ijoc.org/index.php/ijoc/article/view/11978 (citing Bray): Antifa is a self-organized, vigilante group that rises to fight racism, xenophobia, and other forms of injustice across Western democracies (Bray, 2017). It seeks physical confrontations with neo-Nazis through militant tactics and doxxing (i.e., exposing the private information of neo-Nazi members on social media; Bray, 2017). Alcaios (talk) 14:17, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Hey Davide King, I support both edits being restored, I don't understand why they were removed. Bacondrum (talk) 05:20, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't see any consensus building was attempted in the latest addition. Continuing to simply glaze over with Beinart says, Bray say, some other people said has just been a growing into a big gumball of opinions. Can you all support the latest addition as being an actual improvement? Graywalls (talk) 15:40, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Graywalls, all I see is that you keep reverting, even as other users still found my edits useful and they have thanked me for it. We already use Beinart and Bray at History, so the problem seems to be the way it is worded, but that can be better paraphrased without reverting all of it; or perhaps you do not like what I added? Incidentally, Bray is part of the literature; Bray and Vysotsky wrote books and articles about antifa, so the article should be rewritten following these scholarly sources, whether something is due or not, etc. But you do not care about that, you only care about these additions of mine. Most of the article is like that but you keep focusing on these additions. I would note that "he said that", etc. is actually merely following attribution. So do you oppose the content or just the way it is phrased? If you oppose the way it is phrased, like your edit summary seems to imply, surely you should at least try to improve it? What do you propose? Davide King (talk) 16:07, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I think it is an improvement, views are well cites, from an academic subject matter expert and help clarify the groups objectives, tactics and the way they are viewed by others on the left more broadly. Bacondrum (talk) 20:07, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't see any problem with that addition. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Bacondrum, Bobfrombrockley, now they have removed "In 2017, Beinart quoted the antifa-aligned journal It's Going Down as stating that "[s]uddenly, anarchists and antifa, who have been demonized and sidelined by the wider Left have been hearing from liberals and Leftists, 'you've been right all along.'" How it is not relevant when the ADL noted "though since the 2016 presidential election, some people with more mainstream political backgrounds have also joined their ranks" and in general that it is relevant because Beinart quoted it and because it is consistent with the fact since Trump's election more mainstream and other leftists changed their minds about it? Davide King (talk) 10:14, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Yeah I don't see the problem with this quotation at all. It is informative and due and properly attributed. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:57, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree with the rational of the removal. Sounds more like self promotion than something helpful to the reader describing the group as a whole. Basically since it is from a journal that is a supporter of Antifa it is the same as self promotion. PackMecEng (talk) 16:58, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

PackMecEng, if Beinart found it relevant and due to mention and quote it, I do not see how that is "self promotion." As I stated, it is consistent with the ADL's quote that "some people with more mainstream political backgrounds have also joined their ranks." We are not referencing this to the actual antifa-aligned journal but to Beinart, so your whole argument is moot. Davide King (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

I have to disagree, it seems the very model of WP:PROMO. Basically unduly promotional by a closely related source. It also seems to be a fringe view not shared with the majority of sources. PackMecEng (talk) 16:44, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

PackMecEng, it comes from Beinart, who has criticised antifa, so how it is promotional? It would be promotional if it came directly from the website and no other reliable sources picked it up but Beinart and The Atlantic did. That you do not like Beinart found it relevant or curious enough to quote and report is irrelevant. It is also not a fringe view when the ADL and other sources noted the same since 2016. Davide King (talk) 19:56, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

I am only looking at the source used to support the edit in question. Could you like the others you think could support it as well? Because right now the one used is not sufficient. Also it is looking like Beinart in general might not be either, but that can be looked at later. PackMecEng (talk) 04:16, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

PackMecEng, I would be curious to hear what are reliable sources on antifa acording to you, if Beinart, who has criticised it, is not. The ADL also noted the same thing, which is what I quote below, namely that "Trump's rise has also bred a new sympathy for antifa among some on the mainstream left" (cft. "some people with more mainstream political backgrounds have also joined their ranks."), which is what I wanted to point out in my edit and which is what I believe Beinart did too in quoting them, namely that it is not just the farthest left. As we write, "some social democrats and others on the American Left, among them environmentalists, LGBT and indigenous rights advocates, also adhere to the antifa movement." Davide King (talk) 06:45, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Easy, neutral sources that are not linked to the organization. If all you have are biased sources making a statement, that statement is likely undue and fringe. It is like citing a company press release saying how great the company is. No. We do not do that here. I linked WP:PROMO for a reason. PackMecEng (talk) 06:48, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

PackMecEng, please show me these neutral sources you are talking about. "The Atlantic is considered generally reliable." Is Beinart, who literally wrote "The Rise of the Violent Left", or The Atlantic, tied to antifa? Davide King (talk) 06:52, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Davide King, your response was somewhat related to, but wasn't in direct relationship to the previous contents. It is over a different content. I am curious as to why you chose to specifically ping those two editors. Graywalls (talk) 02:48, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Graywalls, I wrote here because we discussed something you removed and I did not want to start a new thread. I pinged them because I was replying to them and I thought you were already following the discussion, so I did not want to overping. I just do not get why you continue to remove properly attributed content to reliable sources. Just stating it is undue does not make it so. Davide King (talk) 16:24, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

First, verifiability with reliable sources is mandatory, but satisfying this requirement is not an entitlement for inclusion if it becomes disputed. I am not the only one to find it not necessary. I suggest you start an RfC to solicit input from those totally outside. Doing so invites people through the RfC bot. Graywalls (talk) 22:59, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

@Vallee01:, you have restored contents under dispute saying that its cited and you don't see an issue with it, but you have not attempted to gain consensus on this disputed content. Pinging editor who removed it, and another editor who participated on this specific discussion. @PackMecEng and Alcaios: Graywalls (talk) 22:24, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, it's anecdotical and perhaps POV-pushing in my opinion. The ADL is quoted as saying that some people with more mainstream political backgrounds have also joined their ranks, then Bray "similarly argues" [sic] something that contradicts the previous sentence ([Antifa] are way outside the traditional conservative-liberal spectrum), then ABC is quoted as saying experts say members' radical views vary and can intersect with communism, socialism and anarchism (not mainstream political positions in the US as far as I know), then we have quotes from CNN and the BBC that contradict once again the theory of the junction between Antifa and the liberal Left. And finally, we learn from an Antifa journal that they [Antifa] "have been right all along". Alcaios (talk) 22:34, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

​​​Alcaios, that is not the point. It is not saying that antifa, or its members' political views, is mainstream but that it grew so much in the 2010s and broadened its appeal beyond those on the farthest left. "By the 2000s, as the internet facilitated more transatlantic dialogue, some American activists had adopted the name antifa. But even on the militant left, the movement didn’t occupy the spotlight. To most left-wing activists during the Clinton, Bush, and Obama years, deregulated global capitalism seemed like a greater threat than fascism. Trump has changed that. For antifa, the result has been explosive growth. Trump's rise has also bred a new sympathy for antifa among some on the mainstream left." Perhaps the problem is that we should put that in context and paraphrase all this, too. Davide King (talk) 01:19, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Are you going to ping people you think will support you with every edit? PackMecEng (talk) 04:14, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

PackMecEng, stop these false insinuations and focus on the content. You had no problems when Graywalls pinged you and Alcaios; since they pinged you two, I pinged the others who have also bene involved, it is that simple. Stop thinking there is a conspiracy. Davide King (talk) 06:41, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Nothing false about it. For example Aquillion, who you did a hidden ping on, has not commented on this page. Quit canvassing users as you did here PackMecEng (talk) 06:45, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

PackMecEng, that is still nonsense, I simply made confusion with Arms & Hearts, with both usernames starting with a. Quit these nonsensical accusations and assume good faith. If I pinged Aquillion, rather than Arms & Hearts, was an honest mistake in confusing the two and thinking the former also commented. Davide King (talk) 06:48, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

You have pinged me 4 times in less than 5 minutes. I can assure you I watch the page and do not need a ping at every comment. Stop canvassing or it goes to a drama board. You have been asked by several people several times on several pages to stop it. If you cannot or will not, you will be asked to leave the topic area. PackMecEng (talk) 06:50, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Again, you are not assuming good faith. I apologise, I pinged you because I used reply-link, which pings automatically and I forgot to remove it after the first time I pinged you; I have not sleep, so I was slow in realising it. Stop assuming the worse from people and making threat and false accusations. Focus on the content and issues. Davide King (talk) 07:00, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

@Davide King: presented like that, I see no issue with the content ('Trump's election has vitalized the Antifa movement and some on the mainstream left are now willing to support them as a tactical opposition'). But the current paragraph is confusing and does not really mean that. Alcaios (talk) 12:04, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Graywalls Excuse me I was unaware of the current dispute. Anyway so I really don't see the issue with the section for starters it is completely true as stated above the difference between anarchist black blocs and antifa. The difference is non-existent all black bloc supports are inherently antifa protesters. The definition of antifa also in a very anarchistic way is almost there no is hierarchy and therefor it difficult to define it. However the most accepted definition of Anti-Fascist Action (antifa) is the "action" section as most antifa supporters support a diversity of tactics including violence, again its a vague definition but you are dealing with one of the most decentralized movements in history. The point of this is to visualize the difficulty of the difference between black blocs and antifa. The person cited as well is a complete reliable source, so don't you think it should be re-included? Vallee01 (talk) 03:32, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

• Please everyone calm down - This thread just got really heated all of a sudden, calm down peeps! We are all capable of discussing this in a civil manner, I can see no reason for anyone to be discussing anything other than content. You've all demonstrated an ability to be civil and constructive in my interactions with you, lets calm things down and focus on content, sourcing etc. Cheers guys, have a merry Xmas! Bacondrum (talk) 07:00, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Bacondrum Completely agree, my input is neutral correct? I also am inactive in the current dispute. Vallee01 (talk) 10:08, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Of course, talking about the argy-bargy above. Bacondrum (talk) 21:07, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Mayor of Oregon's comments

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Edit dispute regarding this addition I've added to the "Activities" section of the article:

After a night of riots in Portland, Oregon on New Year's Eve, Mayor Ted Wheeler said "radical antifa and anarchists" were responsible, who he characterized as consisting of "largely white, young and some middle-age men". According to officials, Molotov cocktails were used which caused thousands of dollars in property damage. Wheeler's opponent during his reelection in 2020, Sarah Iannarone, at one point during the campaign declared, "I am Antifa".

"This seems a purely political statement - are there reliable sources saying it was Antifa?" - @Doug Weller:

If the mayor of Portland, Oregon, a prominent location mentioned several times throughout the article, says its antifa it should be reported on. I'm flabbergasted as to what possible reason he'd have to lie about this, unless you could tell me one.

"Serious issue. One, Iannarone's comment is from November but is positioned here as if she was part of what happened on 1st December. Not sure if intentional or not, but poses serious BLP concern. Two, the significance of 1st Jan "riots" is unclear. If significance is his comments about them "white middle aged" then what is the point here?" - @Koncorde:

As I mentioned before, Innarone saying this at all is contextual. There is no WP:BLP violation referencing so, she said this, it's been reported on. Does the Associated Press mentioning this in a report from November 4 make it so they're trying to imply she said it on election day? No.

"Yes, BLP Issue and again, it's a political statement to attack his opponent, that's not our role" - @Doug Weller:

That's patently ridiculous, she said it Doug, do you rather I whitewash what she literally said? Also you're assuming supporting antifa is a bad thing, I've suggested no such thing neither in the edit history nor the text I'm adding. MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 20:42, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Doug Weller and subsequently myself reverted this change for a few reasons. I note I accidentally said 1st December in the edit summary, I meant 31st. Anyway, to summarise some key issues with the way the information was presented:

1. After a night of riots in Portland, Oregon on New Year's Eve, Mayor Ted Wheeler said "radical antifa and anarchists" were responsible, who he characterized as consisting of "largely white, young and some middle-age men". According to officials, Molotov cocktails were used which caused thousands of dollars in property damage.

• A. Lack of a date means it is unclear what year.
• B. It is written like it is straight editorial.
• C. Ted Wheeler has an opinion on who it was, but unclear how he is delineating what proportion they were. The significance of the event is that it took place in the same location as earlier protests, and involved the same Court House.
• D. "According to officials" is incorrect. The statement is attributed to Law Enforcement. It is also described as "allegedly". We should not ascribe more speculation than the official statement has.
• E. Significance of his press conference and The Hill article is about Wheelers push for stronger legislation to cover repeat offenders.
• F. His use of "radical" and his tone is reflected by The Hills comments that "The Portland mayor's comments mark a drastic change in tone from his remarks throughout 2020"
• G. Distinct to this, we are attempting to use a single source to represent what are contentious claims. Ideally multiple sources are preferred.

2. On that basis please see this OPB article covering the same events which seems to provide a largely different weight and tone for his comments. More significantly, this is present:

• A. Portland police said several items resembling Molotov cocktails were thrown I have no idea what this would be, apart from a Molotov, but it's interesting all the same that the alleged Molotovs are also not quite alleged to even be Molotovs but Molotov-like. Strange wording.

3. Subsequently the edit introduced some comments about Sarah Iannarone.

• A. Absence of any dates, and its position as subsequent to the NYE events makes an inference she was both part of the riot, and in fact shouting "I am Antifa" during it. This is unintentional WP:SYNTH and a BLP issue. Piping to the campaign is not clear enough.
• B. Outside of this, it's unclear what relevance this has to the section in question or why it was presented here at all. I would also, possibly, maybe, suggest that absent the context of where and why she shouted that phrase that associating Iannarone with "radical antifa and anarchists" when she took part in a rather standard election cycle is a bit hyperbolic. Koncorde (talk) 20:44, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

I'll tackle this bit-by-bit.

• 1A. You can add the date, nothing stopping that from occuring, though since the section had already been going by a timeline already, and the election date was included, I assumed it was relatively easy to connect.
• 1B. Nothing editorial with what I've written.
• 1C. Someone as Wheeler in the position he is in is someone who should be listened to, doesn't matter if its for "purely political" purposes when he does so, if he claims it is one way it should be stated. The text doesn't purport that its true, it simply says what the source is telling us.
• 1D. Law enforcement are officials.
• 1E. His explicit calling-out of antifa can make one assume his legislation is being pushed in order to tackle antifa, thus warrants mention.
• 1G. I doubt Wheeler's statements are contentious enough to warrant several sources, his words are his words, that won't change between sources.
• 2A. I can't comment on this.
• 2B. I can't understand this reasoning at all, its related to antifa and Wheeler, mayor of a city long-identified with antifa in that his opponent he nearly lost to strongly associates with them, had threatened legislation to curb them. That is very relevant. MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 20:53, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

1A. The Activities section is related to broader themes. The Notable Actions section is date ordered. You added to the prior section. It is common good practice to place dates early to established the principles of who what where when.

1B. The fact it is one word away from The Hills own wording makes it read as an editorial, rather than encyclopedic.

1C. I don't care about his political position, but when you take an article which is about A, B, C and therefore D, and reduce it down to A and some vague commentary I do care (particularly if The Hill is providing only a single perspective).

1D. "Officials" would typically indicate a member or employee of the government. The article is clear it was stated by Police. As Police have a somewhat vested interest in how they present information (given the larger context is about their budget and operational procedures) we should use where possible the language in the article.

1E. Not disputing that, only that the subject matter is different to the weight you have attributed to some quotations. Per 1C, it reads like a quote mining exercise.

1G. His opinion is his opinion. We use secondary sources, ideally plural, to analyse an opinion or events.

2A. Worrying. It's the most egregious issue.

2B. Lots of people are Anti fascist and at any point may say they are Antifa. Why does it warrant mentioning there, in that context? That you think there is a relevant content shows that you are intentionally conflating two distinct items / events and that is a BLP issue. Koncorde (talk) 21:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

1A. As I said, you could've easily added the dates if you so cared to do so.

1B. Except The Hill is not an editorial its a publication same as any other reliable source we use, nor was I sourcing an opinion piece.

1C. Whether you "care" or not is irrelevant, and whatever you're trying to get across is lost in the inclarity of your statement.

1D. Simply say "authorities" or even "police", the point is to get the information across and that shouldn't be tied up in wording.

1E. I need specifics for this, I can't answer this unless I understand what you're explicitly refeering to and to what you believe is being amplified unjustly.

1G. Thus I'm using secondary sources that report on his words and the events that have occurred.

2A. No, I accidentally skipped the thing you believe I'm refeering to, as you notice my reference points don't match up exactly but since we're on this track we may as well continue. Refeering to the point I missed, you're making a large stretch. By no means does the text I provided imply I intended for her partaking in the riots, my mentioning of her being in an election that has already passed is clearly meant to connect her to that, not the riots. This can easily be solved by simply moving the placement of the text to the beginning if you so insist, and it would be fitting alone. A mayoral candidate of one of the 50 largest cities in the country declared herself a member of the group, that's very notable.

2B. You're ignoring there's a prominent subgroup who views antifa as not simply declaring yourself "anti fascist", whether you subscribe to the notion its all disconnected is not a part of the equation, the mayor surely doesn't and that should be represented, there's no WP:BLP issue in doing so. MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 21:44, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

1A. It would still be in the wrong section, if even relevant, warranted or due.

1B. I don't think you understand what editorial means. We write encyclopedias in an encyclopedic tone, not newsprint. We do not write like a newspaper in a way that infers we are editorialising the content.

1C. In short: you are reducing down the article to a few bullet-points while missing actual context and relevance. The publication is clearly ABOUT Wheeler and his opinion of the events. It is thus hardly relevant to the Activities section and is it really a "Notable action" to warrant inclusion in the subsequent section given it was (to this point) just another night in Portland? The only significance is that Wheeler decided to have a press conference about it.

1D. No it is very important to say the right thing at the right time. Accurately summarising articles, not just quoting lines out of them, and presenting the actual Secondary sources analysis is the principle of reliable sourcing. If we cannot trust 1 word has been accurately summarised then we have to question the rest of the content just as much.

1E. What relevance does, for example, "molotov cocktails" have over any other details in the article? Especially when said Molotovs in the same article are described as "alleged". This is again a case where a key word is removed or changed, which changes the tone or intent of the article.

2A. Yes, it very much does. Please remember you read articles on wikipedia as flat text, and / or it can and may be printed or reproduced in other mediums without the benefit of links to other articles to explain the context. As a result when you purposely place two entirely unrelated events next to each other in a single paragraph you are either intentionally or unintentionally linking the two things together. Because that's what a paragraph is A paragraph is a series of related sentences developing a central idea, called the topic. The topic in the first sentence is New Years Eve Riot. Second sentence is then relevant how?

2B. That isn't related to my point. I am not saying anything about what other Antifa may do. I am saying that inferring an association between Iannarone and the firebombing a courthouse is a BLP issue when you do not make it explicitly clear the two events are entirely unrelated. Koncorde (talk) 22:47, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

• MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken's edit warring has got us all locked out from editing the article. They should be indef banned from the article. Bacondrum (talk) 06:17, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

I had to laugh reading the edit because of its egregious bias. The mayor of Portland says that antifa are a bunch of angry white men breaking the law, then we are told that his opponent says she is antifa. It is basically calling the mayor's opponent a violent racist misogynist. We should not make claims like that either explicitly or implicitly but can only report the conclusions made in reliable sources. TFD (talk) 11:15, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

How on Earth am I calling her a "violent racist misogynist", this is so ridiculous, one of the reasons I never touch controversial topics usually it just devolves into stupid accusations against me like this. MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 12:41, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

You provide a description of antifa as angry white male bomb throwers, then say that Iannarone claims to be one of them. TFD (talk) 13:00, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Just because a common archetype exists doesn't mean its universal, I'd hope you'd recognize that. Understand I put this in a section listed as "Activities", I put, explicitly in quotations, that was what the government of the city which is addressed several times throughout the article is blanketing them as. Then I put how a mayoral candidate who nearly won identifies with that cause, its emphasizing their impact, their activities if you will.

You're accusing me of calling her a racist and a mysogynist, are you kidding me? My mention of an ethnic group is not meant to illicit a kneejerk political identifier, white men have been communists, fascists, libertarians, all of the above. Certainly not a universal code for, "this is a racist." MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 13:44, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

We're saying, very clearly, you conflated a New Years Eve riot with (alleged) "molotovs" used as firebombs with a political candidate saying something over 2 months earlier (or thereabouts). If you cannot see the problem here that that is probably the reason why you repeatedly run into "stupid accusations". You simply cannot write NPOV. Koncorde (talk) 13:57, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

I used a reliable source to gather than information, which I was told I was supposedly lacking, just because you gathered another source that loosely suggested they may or may not have been Molotov cocktails doesn't strikeout my editing of which I was relying on said reliable source. I've already told you why I included the mayor ad nauseum. What happened to WP:AGF, of which I've seen a lacking so far to my intentions which have tried to paint an image when I've only been trying to translate information? In my edits I saw neither you nor Doug Weller attempt to translate it differently. Why? Is this not notable? If my wording was improper can you not have attempted to form it differently. You haven't suggested to me an alternative text here either. I'm trying to provide information, not biased information, but that which has happened and which is seemingly very noteworthy. MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 14:03, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

The source said "alleged". You are pushing the content. You need to argue for all the criteria to make it warranted. You have been told about serious BLP concerns. You have said you can't see them. You have edit warred even after being told about the BLP concerns where the absolute minimum is for you to AGF our concerns are valid. So, yeah. AGF at this point is stable gate horse bolted closed.

You appear to want us to fix your bad work rather than you recognising why your work is bad and reformulating it in a way that addresses concerns and meets all other criteria. It's not up to us to try and find value if we don't think it has any. Koncorde (talk) 14:22, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

So be it then, I'm not going to bother with this further if I'm consistently hampered by those claiming I'm trying to paint a picture when I'm not. I got caught up in an instance of passion and that's a mistake, I recognize that and have said as much, but to suggest I'm only out to write slampieces is an insult to my character and the betterment I hope I've brought to the articles I've contributed towards and created. MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 14:27, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

If you are not out to write slam pieces then acknowledge what has been said and reflect. Koncorde (talk) 14:48, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Opposition to centralised states"

The article currently states "antifa is united by opposition to right-wing extremism and white supremacy as well as opposition to centralized states". There are a few issues with this claim. First, as written, it implies that "opposition to centralised states" is a fundamental element of antifa ideology (as important as opposition to right-wing extremism etc) that is shared by all activists. However, the cited source doesn't claim that: it says "Many of its activists oppose the very notion of a centralized state", implying it is a common but not universal or inherent to the movement. Secondly, its not clear what this claim actually means, and as far as I can see neither this article nor the cite source elaborate. The way I would have interpreted the phrase used here ("opposition to centralized states") would be that they want devolution / localism, with a transfer of authority away from Federal (and possibly State) governments to more local levels. But the phrase used in the source ("oppose the very notion of a centralized state") sounds more radical, possibly implying wanting to abolition states/countries altogether. Finally, the link centralized state redirects to Sovereign state, which further implies they want to abolish all states, although that could be Wikipedia inadvertently making conclusions that aren't warranted. Now, given that antifa includes anarchists, it wouldn't surprise me that some do advocate the abolition of all countries, but I think any such claims need better sourcing and better explanation. Iapetus (talk) 12:17, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Totally agree. Have removed it, as it is a misreading of the source and not helpful at all. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:52, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Rather, it can be helpful to a reader seeking information about the composition of Antifa to know that "Many of its activists oppose the very notion of a centralized state' and which in the Atlantic article means it seeks "the opposite of authoritarianism" with its central authority. Which can mean wanting the abolition states/countries altogether, but is better left undefined here. What is not helpful is deleting rather than editing the united by opposition to the centralized states" under the premise that it is not helpful at all, rather than modifying it to say no more than what the article states, and removing the internal link to Sovereign state. Grace and peace thru the Lord Jesus (talk) 17:22, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Apologies if I was overhasty. I was under the impression that this was a new addition and therefore onus was on supporters for gaining consensus but I realise now it goes back (I can't see how far) and so onus is on those seeking removal. My position: Beinart says "Many of its activists oppose the very notion of a centralized state" - note many not all; other sources say nothing about this. We already say in the lead that its heterogeneous supporters "subscrib[e] to a range of left-wing ideologies such as anarchism, communism, Marxism, social democracy, and socialism", and clearly those ideologies already take a number of different positions on the centralised state. Unless there are reliable sources saying that opposition to a centralised state is a key noteworthy feature of the US antifa movement, that out of context snippet detracts from rather than adds to our article. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:32, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

I think Beinart is referring to anarchism, but the same point is quoted under "Academics and scholars", and he clearly says "many" and not "most" or "all", so I support the removal of that phrase in the location it was in. Crossroads ^-talk- 04:25, 6 January 2021 (UTC)