Talk:Tet Offensive

NLF

What does the "NLF" acronym stand for? Not explained in article, nor here. Does it represent a French-language term?
--Atikokan (talk) 03:44, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

One author wrote the following: 1959 . . . was the year that Ho Chi Minh declared person's War to unite all of Vietnam, which led to the formation of the National Front for the Liberation of South Vietnam (NLF), of which the Viet Cong constituted its (guerilla) army. Source: A. T. Lawrence, Crucible Vietnam: Memoir of an Infantry Lieutenant (2009 ed.). McFarland. ISBN 0786445173, p. 20.99.147.149.27 (talk) 00:44, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Although I don't there is any question that "Vietcong" is the WP:COMMONNAME, fans of "NLF" remain determined and persistent. Kauffner (talk) 19:52, 15 January 2011

• As the author of the vast majority of this article I find it very interesting that the intro now fails to even mention the organization which carried out most of the offensive and suffered the majority of the casualties on the communist side. PAVN was not the parent body of the NLF's armed forces (both were subservient to the Party's Military Committee). Oh well, typical of Wiki, where historical accuracy is denuded in the name of the lowest common denominator.74.177.109.240 (talk) 05:05, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

`

• • Nonetheless, according to the Vietnamese official history of their armed forces, the NLF was a part of the PAVN, and both, of course, were under the command of the Vietnamese executive, as in any country of the world. I believe some credit have to be given to that point of view (Military History Institute of Vietnam, Victory in Vietnam: The Official History of the People's Army of Vietnam, 1954–1975, translated by Merle L. Pribbenow. University Press of Kansas, 2002. p. 68. ISBN 0-7006-1175-4). The refusal to acknowledge the "insurgents" in South Vietnam as part of a regular army, which would concede that the NLF had local support is, to my unprofessional point of view, one of the many instances of a one sided view in the article, which is natural to some degree in the English Wikipedia, dominated by English native speakers. For example, the PAVN is repeatedly (to the point of being irritating) called communist forces while the US army is never referred as capitalist forces. Given the implications of the word "communist" in the English speaking world, is hard to fathom the intentions of the writer (if the writer even realize what he's doing). There are few efforts to name the PAVN units that fought the battle, they are merely referred by estimates of their numbers, as appeared in the US military press releases of the epoch. There are few opinions about the thoughts of the Vietnamese commanders, and some are qualified with pejorative adjectives, while the article abounds in thoughts of US commanders taken from what appears to be US press articles, dutifully echoed by US historians. There are what seems to be excuses given for the most blatant war crimes. Thus, the NLF tagging as extraneous to the PANV is just the tip of an iceberg that points to a few weaknesses in an article that apparently lacks enough input from the Vietnamese or Chinese version of the events. Moreover, the article references heavily only one book, as noted in the tags at the header of this discussion page. I first tried to give here the reasons I have to be suspicious of many articles where US forces are involved, where is hard to distinguish the US official narrative from the Wikipedia version, but in the end I erased my rant and added the Globalize tag, in hopes of new input. In spite of this opinion, I'm deeply thankful for the general quality of the article, which I've read many times (with deep joy) as it has grown over time, specially because of, what seems to me, the pivotal role in Southern Asia history (and perhaps World history of colonization) played by this battle. It marked, perhaps, the high tide of Western intervention in Asia, but this analysis does not belong here (or does it?). So, many thanks, sincerely and from the bottom of my heart, to Mr. 74.177.109.240, in hopes that his Vietnamese and Chinese colleagues join him in his marvelous and appreciated effort. I'm not sarcastic here, merely pointing that each one of us has a culture at the root of our opinions and that in history it takes many generations to reach a perspective. I just hope that the facts are not lost for future historians, for them to be able to develop it in a proper way. --Ciroa (talk) 12:53, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

It should be FNL - which comes from French. Something like "Front Nationale du Liberation" I think, someone has made the abbreviation in English instead (National Liberation Front, I suppose). "FNL" was the commonly used name for Viet Cong in most European countries (most West European countries, actually). As I grew up that red-blue flag with a yellow star was waved by some people, and "FNL" was indeed very associated with that flag. This comment may seem like taking a side, but I was far too young and have not really had any thoughts on this war. Memories however, and they are affected by the strong left winds of that time. My memories, not my perspective. Guess it was a sad matter to all involved. Boeing720 (talk) 00:33, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Correction, FNL is still French , correct full name was "Front national de libération du Sud-Viêt Nam" . Boeing720 (talk) 00:38, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

your reference to the the "irritating" term communist forces as opposed to capitalist forces is interesting, if misplaced. The term is a descriptive, not a disparaging, one. Communist forces are organized and trained in a political methodology, not just military one. This make them unique. The The organization into three-man cells, self-criticism, and the overwatch of political officers at all levels, etc., gives them a totally different cast than any other military organization. I also agree that the NLF should be attributed as such. Viet Cong was a derogatory term drummed up by the Diem regime in order to discredit the NLF.- R.M. Gillespie — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.20.96.249 (talk) 15:39, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

read WP:COMMONNAME. I always replace communist with VC or PAVN whenever I see it used. Mztourist (talk) 05:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Tet Offensive – First three paragraphs of the Introduction require corrections

The introduction states, in part, as follows: “The operations are referred to as the Tet Offensive because they began during the early morning hours of 31 January 1968, Tết Nguyên Đán, the first day of the year on a traditional lunar calendar and the most important Vietnamese holiday. Both North and South Vietnam announced on national radio broadcasts that there would be a two-day cease-fire during the holiday. In Vietnamese, the offensive is called Cuộc Tổng tiến công và nổi dậy ("General Offensive and Uprising"), or Tết Mậu Thân (Tet, year of the monkey).” This is not correct. The first day of the Vietnamese New Year in 1968 was the 30th of January and not the 31st. Consequently, wherever you write 31 January in the Introduction, you should replace it with 30 January. If you look down the article at the first two paragraphs under the section titled, Offensive, you can see that portion was handled correctly. Additionally the 3rd paragraph of the introduction reads, in part, “five of the six autonomous cities, . . , and the southern capital.” This is not correct. Saigon, Dalat, Hué, Da Nang, Cam Ranh, and Vung Tau were the six autonomous cities, so you should more correctly say, “five of the six autonomous cities (including the southern capital).” All of these Introduction issues were discussed extensively in Archive 3 along with verifiable sources.72.197.86.130 (talk) 17:48, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Aftermath -- United States – 2nd paragraph requires correction

The 2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence reads as follows: “As a result of the heavy fighting, 1968 went on to become the deadliest year of the war for the US forces with 16,592 soldiers killed. This is not correct. There were a total of 16,899 American deaths (hostile and non-hostile) in Vietnam during 1968. Hostile deaths included 13,005 killed in action, 1,630 died of wounds, 272 missing in action/declared dead, and 23 captured/declared dead. An additional 1,969 Americans suffered non-hostile deaths, which included illness, accidents, missing/presumed dead, and even homicides. This issue was discussed extensively in Archive 3 along with verifiable sources.72.197.86.130 (talk) 17:49, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Tet Offensive

This article should be reviewed by Wikipedia's military history team for internal inconsistencies and biases, for incomplete discussion of subject matter, repetitiveness, and for possible biases in source matter that are not adequately noted or discussed in the article. It also appears to lack footnotes references for some crucial and possibly questionable statements.

Some specific problems as examples:

The section "Order of Battle and Communist Capabilities" includes neither a presentation of the order of battle for Communist forces or for allied forces. Rather it is largely a discussion of internal debate among U.S. military commanders and intelligence officials and within the Johnson Administration. "Order of Battle" means something specific, and this section is not one.

The section which follows, "Success of the Offensive", is entirely a discussion of U.S. domestic and political issues related to the war during 1967 and previously. It does not cover any aspect of the Offensive in 1968.

Next comes "Northern decisions", sub text "Party politics" which contains such statements as "Planning in Hanoi for a winter-spring offensive during 1968 had begun in early 1967 and continued until early the following year" which cannot possibly be true since the Offensive itself began in "early 1968", and the detailed planning and training for the offensive, including infiltration of additional troops from the North, such as staging of the assault forces, and stockpiling of supplies, had to be completed in late 1967 - a decision to move forward with this extensive effort can only have been made many months beforehand. This, in fact, is hinted at in the following section, only one of many contradictions in the article. The section entitled "General Offensive and Uprising" then makes the claim that the decisions were not finalized until October and December, 1967, which would have been too late for the North Vietnamese to position troops and supplies to carry out the offensive.

The section entitled "Saigon" begins with the internally contradictory statement: "Although Saigon was the focal point of the offensive, the communists did not seek a total takeover of the city" - when it is generally accepted that 1) the aim was to occupy and hold all of the cities and towns which were attacked, not parts of cities (which would have been extremely difficult), nor merely one or another of them; 2) the NVA made a particularly concerted effort to capture the two northernmost provinces of the Republic of Vietnam and to set up revolutionary governments there, and that was clearly a primary North Vietnamese goal, as it was again in the Easter Offensive in 1972; and 3) the most concerted effort and the one that came closest to success was at Hue, not Saigon.

There are many other problems with the article, including a disorganized approach and sloppiness in presentation. My guess is that this is more a result of too many editors with too many different view points, some of them political in nature, but whatever the reason, the result is a confusing article that may contain errors or unsupported opinion or ideological viewpoint. I don't have the time or background to deal with any of this easily, but there are many solid professional and amateur historians who edit Wikipedia articles, and perhaps a careful reviews by a small group could come up with an approach to edit the article into something more scholarly.Sciacchitano (talk) 04:58, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Sciacchitano, I renamed the section to more accurately represent the discussion. It may be reverted, however. I think you correct, though. This article needs a lot of work. --Korentop (talk) 10:53, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Term: communist

Someone already mentioned it. What is it with the constant use of the terms "communist(s)" or "communist forces" for North Vietnamese troops and the Viet Cong? In my opinion it is not well chosen in this topic, because it is generalizing and also inculdes a subtile message/opinion. The exaggerated use, if not the mere use of this term at all sounds absolutely stupid and non-scientific. One could think that the "communists" of communists from all over the world. If I would use this term in this way in a scientific essay, it would be marked as non-scientific. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.69.216.187 (talk) 10:54, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

The advantage of this term is that is that it avoids the suggestion that northern and southern communists were separate militarily. I think it is clear from the memoirs of Tran Van Tra and others that this was not in fact the case. In Vietnamese historical literature, they don't make this distinction. The communist soldiers are all designated PAVN, regardless of whether they were northerners or southerners. If there is some military operation during which northerners did one thing, while southerners did something else, then a distinction is relevant. But just to replace "communist" with "PAVN/NLF" or something similar creates the misleading idea of two forces that have been combined. Kauffner (talk) 12:03, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

RfC on Vietnamese diacritics

RfC: Should the spelling of Vietnamese names follow the general usage of English-language reliable sources? Examples: Ngo Dinh Diem, Ho Chi Minh, and Saigon, or Ngô Đình Diệm, Hồ Chí Minh, and Sài Gòn. The RfC is here. Kauffner (talk) 21:27, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Tone

I see a lot of colloquialisms and other kinds of unencyclopedic language in this article. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:36, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

bias

as Noam Chomsky said, Tet offensive is considered a highly biased term as many would see it as a 'Tet rebellion', after all it was their own country — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.151.224.215 (talk) 23:01, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I, and many others, see Chomsky as as biased, very partisan and controversial historical and political commentator. Actually, the Tet Offensive was initiated by North Vietnamese communist troops and Southern VC insurgents, not a popular uprising by normal civilians, so it's not a rebellion. As well, the offensive was partly if not mostly initiated, conducted and lead by Hanoi, and one must recognize the North and South were politically separate nations and independent entities, despite both calling themselves the sole legit VN and both wanting unification. Someone like Chomsky who denied the Hue Massacre ever happened and calling it a myth, earns the same doubts to their credibility and trustworthiness as a neo-Nazi denying the Holocaust... Nguyen1310 (talk) 01:04, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

GAR status

Okay a few big tags at the top of this one. The globalize tag[1] was added with [this explanation http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ATet_Offensive&diff=441761048&oldid=435155304] and has been there since July 2011. The tone one is more recent[2] and has also been brought up at the talk page.[3]. Now I can't speak much to the globalize viewpoint, but I can see the point behind the tone one. The first sentence starts off "During the fall of 1967, the question of whether the U.S. strategy of attrition was working in South Vietnam weighed heavily on the minds of the American public and the administration of President Lyndon B. Johnson." The whole article is nicely written, but appears a bit more essayish than what I am used to seeing in a Good encyclopaedic article. Can someone familiar with the topic address these issues? AIRcorn (talk) 03:23, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Okay it has been a month and there are no responses here or as far as I can tell changes addressing the issues at the article. The next step is to start a GAR to try and fix the issues or delist the article. Will probably do so in the next few days unless I get a response here. AIRcorn (talk) 11:32, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

• There are certainly a lot of problems with flabby writing and inconsistent nomenclature. The material on communist thinking is both speculative and outdated. Ang Cheng Guan had access to the communist archive and would be the authority on many of these issues. But he is cited on only two minor points. Kauffner (talk) 14:54, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

I took a quick look at the article and can't see any obvious problems. However, you guys are welcome to start a GAR if you want. Also, if there's no worldview problem, I suggest removing the globalize tags.-- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 03:52, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I can not speak to the globalise tag as I do not know enough about the topic, it could be relavent and considering it has sat on the article for 1.5 years it probably is not completely misplaced. AIRcorn (talk) 05:29, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

History.net

History.net, Gareth Porter and Marilyn Young are the reliable sources. Don't remove it, @Quoc VietMiG29VN (talk) 14:04, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

The main reason the inclusion of the Hue Massacre "Dispute/Denial" section in the Tet Offensive article is unacceptable, is because the Tet Offensive article provides an over-arching summary of all military operations and events that occurred around and during Tet 1968, including a short summary of the Hue Massacre, but, the denial of the Massacre's existence is only held by a very small minority of historians - the overwhelming majority accepts that the Hue Massacre was committed by the Viet Cong - even captured Viet Cong documents record precisely how many people they killed and they've admitted to perpetrating it! By MiGVN inserting that large Massacre denial paragraph, which only few, fringe, partisan historians/political analysts hold like Young and Porter, it is completely disproportionate to the rest of the Hue Massacre section in the article, since the massacre paragraph is already short (~several lines), and therefore, a minor subtopic such as Massacre denial, in particular a fringe subtopic, should be even shorter (1 - 2 lines maximum ), or absent altogether, per Wikipedia:Reliable sources and undue weight (see 1st paragraph and Jimbo Wale's 3 points). Also, apparently MiG29VN considers using captured Viet Cong records of the number of people they killed as "POV", and using Douglas Pike's Hue Massacre report to a US Government hearing as "POV". Even user Eyesnore responded that my edits were constructive and achieving NPOV, after MiG29VN falsely and deliberately claimed I was a vandal, in attempt to mislead Eyesnore in removing my edits and MiGVN evading any accusations of edit warring and blocks. MiGVN claimed i was removing his Gareth Porter/Marilyn Young section, even though it is clearly still there. Following MiG29VN's logic, academic who rely on secondary information sources - second-hand info, such as Porter and Young, which deny any wrongdoing from the Communists in all or part, are "reliable", "valid", "neutral" sources, while first-hand data from the Viet Cong's very own documents, Douglas Pike's report to Washington, and investigative data from South Vietnam which prove the Massacre's existence, as "invalid" and "biased".Nguyễn Quốc Việt (talk) 05:20, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

The Time's RV

"However, the Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci, citing a French priest she spoke to in Huế, claimed at least 200 people, and perhaps as many as 1,100, who were killed following the "liberation" of Huế by the US and ARVN.[130][131] Stanley Karnow wrote that the bodies of those executed by South Vietnamese teams were thrown into common graves.[130] Some reports exposed that South Vietnamese "revenge squads" had also been at work in the aftermath of the battle, searching out and executing citizens that had supported the communist occupation.[132][133]

Historian David Hunt posited that Douglas Pike's study for the U.S Mission was, "by any definition, a work of propaganda". In 1988 Pike said that he had earlier been engaged in a conscious "effort to discredit the Vietcong".[134]"

These are main article's blocks. All of them are valid, but you removed them without a reason. That's totally biased113.190.46.134 (talk) 10:43, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

One must be critical and skeptical of what this MIG29VC says and does - serious integrity issues can be witnessed eg from his fabricated references, false claims of "vandalism", deviously removing cites to remove content altogether etc. This guy tried to falsely, deceptively frame opposing editors (myself and Andreas Philopater) as "vandals", in order to get unsuspecting, unaware users to delete content that I and Andreas have contributed that MiG dislikes. MiG wants other users to delete content for him, so that way he's not on the hook for edit-warring. Nguyễn Quốc Việt (talk) 14:09, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Please see: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Tet_Offensive&diff=608220007&oldid=608203909 Quocviet removed the reliable source without a reason. His revert edit is vandalism, isn't that? If that is vandalism, please ask him to stop this42.113.89.101 (talk) 14:03, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

• ACTIVE MIG29VN SOCKPUPPETRY INVESTIGATION ROUND 3
• Archives of 2 recent, previous sockpuppetry investigations of MIG29VN

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Tet Offensive. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130708215934/http://history.state.gov/milestones/1961-1968/TET to http://www.history.state.gov/milestones/1961-1968/TET

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 16:32, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Results of the Tet Offensive

In light of the book Hanoi's War For Peace, found here [[4]] which combs through North Vietnamese government archives, the Tet Offensive should be looked at in a different light. The strategic goals was to spur a general uprising as well as to cause defection among ARVN units, neither of which was met during the offensive. At the same time it laid bare the public fact that the US was not winning the war in light of private proclamations by US leaders that they were losing, and cemented to the American public that US ground forces cannot win the war. I think editing the results section might be a bit better to reflect this. Perhaps rather than stating outright "victory", or"tactical and strategic". There was no real intention to hold ground given that there was something under 85k troops against nearly 1 million, which is not a realistic tactical assessment. 00:38, 12 June 2018 (UTC)User talk:a_bicyclette

I'd suggest something along the lines of Strategic Failure: Uprising and Defection and something along the lines of political or whatever victory as it currently is. A bicyclette (talk) 07:42, 12 June 2018 (UTC)User talk:a_bicyclette

• Oppose any change to the Infobox and Aftermath which already accurately summarise the entire outcome. Mztourist (talk) 07:45, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• Support, after editing the body. This is the definition of a HQRS: scholarly history, scholarly press, raving reviews. (Univ of North Carolina Press; http://go.galegroup.com/ps/anonymous?id=GALE%7CA419268803&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=1044016X&p=AONE&sw=w ; https://www.questia.com/library/journal/1G1-368957607/hanoi-s-war-an-international-history-of-the-war-for ; https://academic.oup.com/jah/article-abstract/100/1/278/747815 ). The support is conditional, because you don't start with the infoboxes, you start with the body of the article and summarise upwards. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:26, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion:

• 3The-Duong-2---dai-tuong-Nguyen-Chi-Thanh.jpg
• T4 Vietcong Tet Offensive.jpg
• Tet Offensive Preparation.jpg
• Viet Cong Sworn In.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:43, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Outcomes Section Edit

As modern scholarship does not point to this being a classical invasion, in the sense of holding territories in a conventional war. The proper outcome should be regarded as "Territory recaptured" and "Failure to create uprisings/defections" as the objective of the tet offensive was this. This distinction is key, given that the 1972 Offensive was a clear example of a repulsed invasion, with markedly different objectives.

Unreffed description of "depletion of Viet Cong leading to substitution by North Vietnamese forces" was one long term outcome among many. Not really relevant regardless, since they continued to exist and were historically a branch of the NVA. Substituted with See Aftermath. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deogyusan (talk • contribs) 07:22, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

The Infobox result has been stable until you made your recent changes. I am agreeable to changing "North Vietnamese invasion repulsed" to "Failure to provoke a general uprising". It is commonly known that the VC suffered horrendous losses and that from then on the PAVN took over most of the fighting with the VC playing only a supporting role and so "depletion of Viet Cong leading to substitution by North Vietnamese forces" is entirely accurate. Mztourist (talk) 07:30, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

There are several outcomes but it isn't relevant to list all of them, as the Viet Cong remained a presence that actively conscripted areas they held after the Tet Offensive and remained an existing military force, albeit with 70% of their forces being from the DRV instead of 30-40%, as per the article'd aftermath section. We need not list e.g. "Vietnamization" as an outcome, just as we need not list this one as they are not direct, immediate outcomes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deogyusan (talk • contribs) 07:39, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Distinction Between VC/NVA Not Useful

The Viet Cong isn't a seperate organization from the NVA, its directly politically and militarily controlled by the PAVN, existing as a non-uniformed wing entirely under the NVA's military control. There's a popular myth that they ceased to exist after the Tet Offensive when it was a reflection of changing military doctrines/changing presence post-Tet Offensive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.209.50.103 (talk) 08:01, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree that the VC was part of the PAVN, but it had a separate organizational structure and operated differently, so perfectly appropriate to address them separately as is done across WP. Mztourist (talk) 08:03, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

This is quite literally an opinion. Its leadership were entirely PAVN leaders and it operated as an unconventional branch of the main group. Its conscript base were interchangable.