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Edit links for sysops

John M Wolfson, a suggestion on top of your edit: replace plain URLs https... with {{fullurl:pagename|action=edit}}. See source of Template:Edit. —⁠andrybak (talk) 22:29, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Also, the added   could go inside the <span>...</span>. —⁠andrybak (talk) 22:30, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

I put the NSBPs in the span, but I'm not so sure about the magic word, especially in urls that are date-dependent (TFA, OTD, and POTD), although another sysop is welcome to try it. I'd also personally prefer the links to go on the right side of the header (opposite the title), but don't have the CSS skills to make that happen, unfortunately. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 22:41, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Can we please stop putting untested code on the main page? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 23:39, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

John M Wolfson, here's sandbox with links on the right, and better edit link for POTD—right now [edit] link for POTD links to Template:Pic of the day, which isn't used on the Main Page: Special:Diff/987903491/987913789. —⁠andrybak (talk) 23:57, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

John M Wolfson, the edit link for POTD is still not right after your last edit. The Main Page uses subpages of Template:POTD protected, like Template:POTD protected/2024-12-23. —⁠andrybak (talk) 01:51, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

So after my polite request above John M Wolfson made two further untested changes to the main page. Could I make the request a bit stronger then and ask that you do NOT edit the main page in future unless the change is fully tested and supported by consensus? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:18, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Why were these added with neither testing nor a consensus discussion? I have reverted pending a really good reason these are suggested to be necessary (because I don't see it). It causes FOUCs even for people who aren't admins, never mind MSGJ's comment above. --Izno (talk) 08:19, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Looks cool, I guess, but note that I've never been involved with any main-page operations. Maybe if an admin notices that a compromised admin account vandalized one of the sections? But that seems like a pretty unlikely case. The only other use case I can think of is being curious about what code is used to create a particular section, in which case these links would save some digging through the Main Page stuff.

Maybe something more useful would be a {{navbar}}-style small and unobtrusive v · t · e set of links for each section (with appropriate talk page links), for admins? (Or even template editors?) Enterprisey (talk!) 08:44, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

I created the links for the ease of ERRORS-centric admins such as myself who are unfamiliar with how to get to the transcluded templates of such niche topics as POTD and OTD, and prior to getting the mop I assumed they already existed. I don't know what "FOUC"s are, I did not myself experience FOUCs (and consider that an easily fixable issue), but while they were up they passed my basic tests of being unseeable when logged out and not causing major issues on a mobile device. Enterprisey's idea of VTE links seems workable, and I'm open to further tweaks in the sandbox, but other than the fairly weak argument of aiding a compromised account I see no reason why these links shouldn't exist and some reason why they should. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 09:01, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

The links on the headings at Wikipedia:Main Page/Errors are quite useful to get you to where you need to be. I also saw these FOUCs yesterday (and I have learned a new acronym!) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:56, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Is there any real benefit to having admins unfamiliar with how to get to the transcluded templates find an easy link on the MP? I kind of think there are more downsides than upsides. Even typo fixes are best at least mentioned at ERRORS, and the links are right there. —valereee (talk) 13:15, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, for someone working at errors I imagine the links at errors would be sufficient, perhaps those are not discoverable as links of interest somehow? --Izno (talk) 13:47, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

We have Wikipedia:Main Page/sandbox for a reason. If you want to try out some non-trivial new code, do it there, get it tested, and gain consensus on this talk page before introducing the code into the live Main Page. User:Modest Genius ^talk 12:06, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

• I dispute Martin's description of my further edits as "untested", as they were cosmetic/link changes from the initial edit. (I also did test the initial edit in Preview, but can concede such was inadequate.) As a gesture of goodwill and deference I will, however, not make any changes to the Main Page until consensus in this discussion is obtained, as these changes were more controversial than I initially thought. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 19:44, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Nice work

Very interesting main page today in just about every section, clicked through to a lot more articles than I normally do. Kudos to all involved. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 07:28, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia Languages

In section „Wikipedia Languages“ Georgian Wikipedia is missing--ჯეო4WIKI (talk) 20:02, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Two below "Italiano". Bazza (talk) 20:03, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

ჯეო, please start a discussion over at Template talk:Wikipedia languages. —⁠andrybak (talk) 20:48, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@Bazza 7: I mean template at the end of Main Page--ჯეო4WIKI (talk) 20:52, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

"Halaman Utama" listed at Redirects for discussion

30px A discussion is taking place to address the redirect :Halaman Utama. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 November 16#Halaman Utama until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. User:onel5969 ^{User talk:Onel5969} 16:19, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Note: the redirect has now been speedily deleted. — User:Ravenpuff · talk · 19:29, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

"Draft:Main Page" listed at Redirects for discussion

30px A discussion is taking place to address the redirect :Draft:Main Page. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 November 18#Draft:Main Page until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Seventyfiveyears (talk) 18:33, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Featured article not protected

The featured article isn't page protected. I undid some vandalism and did a rpp. Desertarun (talk) 11:29, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

@Desertarun: it's not supposed to be protected - this is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit! Thanks for reverting the vandalism. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:34, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Record DYK?

Is 19 bold links in a single hook a record? — O Still Small Voice of Clam 11:29, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Wow! Yes it must surely be a record. Well done to everyone who got all those articles up to scratch — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:49, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm afraid not @Voice of Clam:. The record is 54 according to the DYK Hall of Fame. User:The C of E (User talk:The C of E) 12:16, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

That'll taking some beating... — O Still Small Voice of Clam 12:41, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

November 26th POTD was... just a huge mistake.

Template:POTD_protected/2020-11-26, split into Template:POTD_protected/2020-11-26/1 and Template:POTD_protected/2020-11-26/2

Amongst other things:

• I was never asked about combining these into one nomination. They aren't a natural set, and are two seperate nominations. Hence, neither has gotten the full day they deserve by right.
• The nominations weren't even in the same year: Duprez's image was in August 2015 and Alizard's in April 2016.
• THE PAGES HAVE A MASSIVE ERROR: Adolphe-Joseph-Louis Alizard is described next to the image of Gilbert Duprez, and vice-versa. So their time on the main page served to miseducate people.

As such, I'd ask that this POTD be set aside, and the images rescheduled for about a year from now, as seperate POTDs. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.7% of all FPs} 09:18, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

• Yeah, it's a fair point. I think the multi-set thing should probably be just for items which are visually very similar, and obviously linked, like members of a coin or note set from the same issue. During my time as coordinator, I scheduled several different views of Bath Abbey together, which is something I probably shouldn't have done, as each could stand in its own. I'm neutral on whether to run them again, but if we do, let's space them out significantly so that readers don't feel like their getting deja vu.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:52, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

  • If it wasn't for the error, I'd probably let it go, but with the error... But, aye, at least a year before they reappear. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.7% of all FPs} 10:10, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

    Fair enough, and yes it's a shame we didn't spot the error at the time. I'd say at least a year until the first, and then at least another year until the second... That's not so long in Wikipedia time!  — Amakuru (talk) 10:45, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

• @Adam Cuerden: Could you please explain what you mean by the "MASSIVE ERROR"? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:27, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

The descriptions are correct - maybe you thought the "See also" was a caption? P-K3 (talk) 16:40, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Rechecking, I guess it's kind of right, but confusing as it describes the person not pictured as well immediately after, and then gives a plot summary that minimises Roger's role, despite being ostensibly about him in one case, and kind of summarises the last three acts of the opera as "they then all go to Jerusalem", it's kind of easy to miss when playing "spot the difference". Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.7% of all FPs} 22:50, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Redesign of the "Wikipedia languages" box

25px Hello all! A few of us have redesigned the "Wikipedia languages" box that appears at the bottom of the main page. The main change is improving the visual hierarchy, but we've also removed some duplicated or misplaced information. You can see the changes by comparing current to proposed. An admin has requested that we ensure there is consensus before implementing, so you are invited to leave any comments at Template talk:Wikipedia languages § Redesign (please do so there, not here, to avoid a WP:TALKFORK). Cheers, {{u|User:Sdkb}} ^talk 22:29, 29 November 2020 (UTC)Template:Z48

Diego Maradona photo

I think Diego Maradona is far more deserving of the front page "In the News" photo rather than some obscure and very local championship in Japan that not many follow outside Japan. werldwayd (talk) 05:25, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Werldwayd, Maradona's photo was used two days ago: Special:Permalink/990723735. The photo in the section changed two times since then: Special:Diff/990723735 and Special:Diff/990860370. —⁠andrybak (talk) 06:06, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Werldwayd The Japan Series is on the Recurring Events list; if you feel it should not be, you may start a discussion at WT:ITN to propose its removal, although there are many national sporting events listed there. 331dot (talk) 09:53, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

This inspired me to post at WT:ITN about culling the number of sports items on the recurring events list. {{u|User:Sdkb}} ^talk 03:51, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Fundraising banner

Much, much better, I like the new one, much less awkward and straight. Didn't I suggest almost exactly the same wording a few weeks back?† User:Encyclopædius 17:50, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Ludwig

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

90px Three of today's four OTD items are Germany-related, but none is about the 250th anniversary of Beethoven's birth, which has drawn widespread media attention in recent days. A missed opportunity. – Sca (talk) 14:28, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Beethoven is the lead item and picture in DYK. We don't feature the same topic twice in different sections of the MP. User:Modest Genius ^talk 14:29, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

There's no collaboration between main page sections, so the fact Beethoven only appears once is a complete fluke. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 14:36, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I didn't say it was deliberate, just meant there was no need for any corrective action. User:Modest Genius ^talk 14:43, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Oh, you missed the word "need" in your response then. We often actually "DO" feature the same topic in multiple sections e.g. Apollo 11. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 14:44, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

The DYK blurb doesn't mention his birthday. Interesting 1812 bust, though. (He died in 1827.) – Sca (talk) 14:45, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Sca the OTD blurbs are usually posted around 40 hours into the relevant page prior to the day itself, so if you think something/someone could be added, feel free to do so. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 14:47, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

There has been plenty of effort to mark the anniversary at DYK. And tomorrow's OTD is marking his baptism.-- P-K3 (talk) 14:49, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Oh, good. There's apparently a bit of uncertainty about whether he was born on Dec. 16 or 15, but none about that. It would be good to say that he was born and baptized in Bonn. – Sca (talk) 14:58, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

But DANG! — The baptism's's merely listed, along with two other anniversaries: "Ludwig van Beethoven (bapt. 1770) Pierre Paul Émile Roux (b. 1853) Alicia Boole Stott (d. 1940)." Woefully inadequate. (Who the heck are Roux and Stott compared to Beethoven?)
Don't your realize that LvB is the ultimate megastar of Classical Music? (Would it help if I said Beethoven is the Bob Dylan of Classical Music history?) It's almost as if there were some cabal against featuring this historic anniversary in OTD. – Sca (talk) 17:10, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

_{He's decent, but he's no Handel....} User:The C of E (User talk:The C of E) 18:02, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

No, unlike Handel he was no pyromaniac. – Sca (talk) 23:10, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Anyone can contribute to Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries. Feel free to join in to help improve diversity and include more interesting anniversaries and observances. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 17:13, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

But anyone can't change tomorrow's OTD. – Sca (talk) 17:19, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

You can raise a suggestion at WP:ERRORS by all means. I can't see if Beethoven has ever featured on OTD so given such a prominent anniversary it might be good for a blurb instead of just births/deaths/baptisms. And as you say, it's been publicised for a few days now so it's not like the chance hasn't been there to do anything about it. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 17:54, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Not an error per se. An omission – or suboptimal placement. – Sca (talk) 23:05, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, we've never had an OTD item about someone's birth/baptism, where the significance lies with the individual rather than the event itself (Beethoven's baptism, although celebrated now due to his fame, was totally insignificant in 1770); the births/deaths line underneath the blurbs can serve this purpose instead. There's no stipulation that the three individuals included must be of roughly equal renown, and I think we're doing a pretty good job of commemorating Beethoven already. — User:Ravenpuff · talk · 20:50, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

You don't think "the significance lies with the individual rather than the event itself" – ??? Unvorstellbar. No Classical composer is more significant than LvB. Obviously, his brilliant and tragic future was unknown at the time of his birth. Doh. – Sca (talk) 23:00, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

PS: From German Wiki's OTD, Dec. 17 —

1770 – Der deutsche Komponist Ludwig van Beethoven (3. Sinfonie, Fidelio) wird in Bonn getauft, wahr­schein­lich wurde er am Vortag geboren.

(Trans: The German composer Ludwig van Beethoven (Third Symphony, Fidelio) was baptized in Bonn; he probably was born the previous day.)

– Sca (talk) 14:31, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

• SCA, do you have a actionable solution to your problem, or are you just here to yet again tell unpaid volunteers working in their free time that they are terrible at their unpaid, volunteer jobs? --User:Jayron32User talk:Jayron32 15:14, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Jay —

1) I am an unpaid volunteer.

2) The problem is not mine, it is, or was, English Wikipedia's.

3) I made no personal comments, and only addressed the editorial issue as I saw it – in an effort to improve our product. Anyone was, and is, free to disagree with anything I said.

4) Your comment above is polemical, snide and insulting. It ignores WP:AGF, WP:CIV, WP:NPA, and is inappropriate for an impartial administrator. Please desist from casting aspersions at me or other users or maligning our motives. Thank you.

– Sca (talk) 15:52, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

You still have not provided an actionable solution to the problem. --User:Jayron32User talk:Jayron32 16:00, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Have you?
'Bye. – Sca (talk) 17:43, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I didn't, and still don't, find there to be any problem. Why would I need to find a solution? --User:Jayron32User talk:Jayron32 17:54, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Something I need to tell you

The CSD tag on talk was a test to see if a CSD tag can be placed on protected pages, it was not vandalism. --🔥User:LightningComplexFireUser talk:LightningComplexFireSpecial:Contribs/LightningComplexFire🔥 13:53, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Rioters storming US Capitol

When I'm logged out, the page width causes the first ITN entry to appear thus:

Rioters supporting Donald Trump storm the United States Capitol (pictured),
disrupting certification of the presidential election and forcing Congress to evacuate.

And when I'm logged in, the page width is different (I use Monobook), so the entry appears thus:

Rioters supporting Donald Trump storm the United States Capitol (pictured), disrupting certification
of the presidential election and forcing Congress to evacuate.

To me, the first layout is mildly problematic: the second line is longer than the first, making it somewhat less clear where the first blurb ends and the second starts. Yes, I know there are bullets at the left end, but they're less distinctive than when the second line of the first blurb is clearly shorter than the first, as in when I'm logged in. (1) Is this perspective shared by others, or am I unusual? (2) If it's shared by others, is there any way that we could tweak something (maybe with CSS?) so that the first is longer than the second? If this were a permanent thing, I'd suggest that we place a nowrap around certain words so that they'd always appear together, regardless of browser settings, but obviously this would take a ton of time and testing to do manually every time, and the only other way I can envision to force this (tweaking wording of blurbs) would be ridiculous. Nyttend (talk) 13:20, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

@Nyttend: when you are logged out you are almost certainly viewing the page in vector (assuming you are using the web view) - so that is already going to be a big styling difference. This may also vary based on your resolution; we normally would only no wrap items that are very useful to keep together, like the units identifier with a number. Do you want a specific word on this specific blurb addressed - or just want to discuss this condition in general? — User:Xaosflux ^{User talk:Xaosflux} 14:48, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it's Vector. I'm mentioning this blurb only as an example; I really just want to discuss the condition in general. I only brought in nowrap to say "I know this wouldn't work". Nyttend (talk) 15:16, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

This is not fundamentally something we can or should control. Mobile display particularly is damaged by attempts to control where words wrap. --Izno (talk) 15:22, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

So then we can't tell the CSS to render the last line's length no more than a certain percentage of a previous line's length? Nyttend (talk) 15:41, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

No. Certain percentage of container for a specific arbitrary passage. Or start a new line with a paragraph or new list bullet would be ways. Both of which are content decisions and/or impact the total column length of course. All of it arbitrary at that point though. --Izno (talk) 16:48, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

The dinosaur and the British penny

off the main page --User:Jayron32User talk:Jayron32 15:04, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'm surprised to see, on the main page under Featured Article, a photograph of a dinosaur tooth, with a British penny for size. I know that happens in articles, but I know that it's specifically discouraged--with good reason. I myself have been to England several times--but now it's been a few years (and I've been to several other countries since then), and I'm trying to remember what the British penny looks like and how big it is. In addition to that, they've changed the size of the penny in my own lifetime. At least, they did so with decimalization; the old penny (pounds, shillings and pence) was about the size of the OLD, CLASSICAL U.S. silver dollar (NOT the current ones). Have they changed the penny since? I'm not even sure. I do know they've changed at least one coin SINCE decimalization. (The five new pence coin was originally the same size as the old shilling, since under the conversion they were mathematically equivalent, so they made the new coin to be interchangeable with the old; later they made a smaller 5 P.) And all this is really extraneous anyway, for someone who has never been there and never seen a British penny. Uporządnicki (talk) 12:16, 10 January 2021 (UTC),, Odd, the old British penny has not been UK currency for nearly fifty years! David J Johnson (talk) 13:12, 10 January 2021 (UTC) It's all pretty pointless given there's a scale on the diagram in any case. The British decimal penny might as well not be there. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 13:20, 10 January 2021 (UTC) Hmm! I see that in my own--uhm--zealousness? to jump on things, I completely overlooked that rather conspicuous detail. I see now that it is the current British penny (I did have to go and look it up--but then I'm fretting about the size of the coin, and not the size of the tooth). Point taken! But I do happen to be well over 50. (On the other hand, by the time I first set foot in Merry Olde England, as a young man, the shillings and the 240 pence to the pound WERE history--albeit recent history.) Uporządnicki (talk) 13:40, 10 January 2021 (UTC) You already have the metric system measurement there for the rest of the world, why not have an American penny so Americans can know the size? And doesn't America have the largest economy in the world anyway, so its penny would be more widely recognized? User:Dream Focus 14:04, 10 January 2021 (UTC) American penny?? C'mon, just ditch the penny altogether, the measurement is there, we don't need this divisive conversation on whose penny makes more sense. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 15:03, 10 January 2021 (UTC) "The Dinosaur and the British Penny"? That sounds like some weird crossover between Batman and Encyclopedia Brown written by Agatha Christie..... and I now desperately want to read that book. --Khajidha (talk) 21:00, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

What is "demesne"?

off the main page --User:Jayron32User talk:Jayron32 15:05, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
In the "did you know" section about Rostellan, demesne should be WikiLinked! I had to look it up.Kokopelli7309 (talk) 03:03, 9 January 2021 (UTC) I don't know about you, but I knew the word "demesne" back in primary school.--WaltCip-(talk) 21:28, 10 January 2021 (UTC) Play some Crusader Kings II and you'll get it. ;) User:The C of E (User talk:The C of E) 21:41, 10 January 2021 (UTC) I never heard the word before. I'm an American. Its it a British word? User:Dream Focus 23:05, 10 January 2021 (UTC) It's certainly not common. Wikilinking would be sensible, AND polite. HiLo48 (talk) 23:12, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

"In the United States, the Democratic Party wins control of the Senate..."

Not true. They have won 48 out of 100 seats. The only thing they accomplished was preventing the Republicans from maintaining their majority, which is all they could do ever since the results of the regular elections. "Winning control" hasn't been on the table for them since then. A50E10AN500ER (talk) 13:12, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

A50E10AN500ER 48 Democrats plus 2 independents who caucus with them equals 50, plus Kamala Harris makes control- and that is how reliable sources report it. 331dot (talk) 13:28, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

How does Harris make control? Does she have an overriding vote? HiLo48 (talk) 23:15, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, she has the deciding vote in the event of a tie. Stephen 23:33, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. HiLo48 (talk) 01:14, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

More specifically, in a 50-50 senate, the vice president casts the deciding vote to determine who is in the majority. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:32, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

• Do these two independent always vote with them? That seems odd. Specific information should be listed, not vagueness. User:Dream Focus 01:11, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Nearly all RSes consider it a win for Dems being able to control the house (NYTimes, CNN, etc.), which is what we should follow the sourcing given how we reported the election results in Nov. --User:Masem (t) 01:27, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
    • This does seem inconsistent - if they're independents, they are by definition not part of the Democratic Party. I'm no expert on this topic, but would it be more accurate to say that the Senate Democratic Caucus has won control, rather than the Democratic Party per se? User:Modest Genius ^talk 12:20, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
      • I think that's overly pedantic. The two did not run as Democrats, but because they caucus with them, the Democratic Party has won control.-- P-K3 (talk) 14:01, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
        • Agreed. There is no need for any change.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:23, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
• Just to comment on the voting issue, that shouldn't really apply because even not all Democrats always vote with the party position. However, the independents caucus with the Democrats, which is why the Democrats won control, as reported by RS. It's the caucus size that matters, not the votes. Herbfur (Eric, He/Him) (talk) 16:45, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Recent deaths

Can you add Jessica Campbell? She is making a lot of news because of her death. She is famous for starring in Election. User:Koridas 📣 23:04, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

• It will need to be nominated at WP:ITN/C. It appears the death has only just been announced so it should still be eligible; however it will need to be expanded as it is just a stub at the moment. P-K3 (talk) 23:32, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Main page banner proposal for 20th anniversary

25px You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) § Main page banner. {{u|User:Sdkb}} ^talk 20:01, 14 January 2021 (UTC)Template:Z48

I'm not sure if this is the best place to mention it, but at the moment the image is slightly cropped at the top and bottom in both Firefox and IE. I'm using the MonoBook skin. It's most noticeable on the Over One Billion Edits line, where the bottom one or two rows of pixels are missing. User:Hassocks5489User talk:Hassocks5489 23:24, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I came here to say the same. Also MonoBook in Chrome. User:Fences and windows&User talk:Fences and windows 23:31, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Yep, I'm having the same issue. We're actively working on it and should have a fix soon. — Wug·a·po·des​ 23:37, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Fixed! Thanks, Wug·a·po·des. User:Fences and windows&User talk:Fences and windows 00:49, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Edit number 1,000,000,000 on English Wikipedia

In about 40 hours, two days before Wikipedia's 20th birthday on January 15, we'll reach edit number 1,000,000,000. (See Wikipedia:Time Between Edits#Projections for details.) I think that's a reason to celebrate! Are there any plans to post something to the main page? I'm not acquainted with the processes for this page... — Chrisahn (talk) 05:48, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Didn't we do something similar recently? User:The C of E (User talk:The C of E) 08:40, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Last year we had a red banner underneath the Wikipedia globe logo to commemorate a certain number of articles created. ~ User:HAL333User talk:HAL333 14:50, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't think this is as "reader centric" as the x'th article being available for main page inclusion; I wouldn't be too opposed to maybe a short duration watchlist notice of "Congratulations on revision X, EDITOR" with a link to somewhere discussing it (WP:VPM maybe?) — User:Xaosflux ^{User talk:Xaosflux} 16:26, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm thinking whatever we're doing to celebrate the anniversary, just mention "and recently received its billionth edit" or something? —valereee (talk) 18:01, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

@The ed17 and Ed Erhart (WMF): was WMF planning any CN banners for the birthday? — User:Xaosflux ^{User talk:Xaosflux} 19:49, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for pinging me! Tagging the community lead for the project Selsharbaty (WMF). Ed Erhart (WMF) (talk) 20:01, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

In 20 minutes... — Chrisahn (talk) 00:49, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

[1] We just made 1,000,000,000 edits on Wikipedia! User:NASCARfan0548 User talk:NASCARfan0548#top 01:20, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

...and it was done by Ser Amantio di Nicolao, who is also the Wikipedian with the highest number of edits. What a serendipity. :-) Congrats! — Chrisahn (talk) 01:45, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Honestly, I was just trying to help get over the billion mark before the twentieth anniversary. It was a nice bonus having the actual billionth edit. :-) --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 02:13, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Serendipity or not, I still feel the need to give my congratulations. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 02:47, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

@Vaticidalprophet: and @Chrisahn: Speaking of music: "Thank you, thank you, thank you kindly". --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 03:48, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

And congratulations from me as well!--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 05:01, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

@Sturmvogel 66: Thanks very much! --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 15:14, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Amazing!--Berig (talk) 15:18, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

I will tell my friends I saw the one billionth edit "live" (I was active on Wikipedia at the time), they'll say I'm a legend, haha 🔥User:LightningComplexFireUser talk:LightningComplexFireSpecial:Contribs/LightningComplexFire🔥 15:20, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay responding on the question about foundation-run CN banners for Wikipedia 20. There is a CN banner running starting today for a week. It will be seen for non-logged-in users until 21 January. You can read the banner text, check out the template and get some information about it in this FAQ page. --Selsharbaty (WMF) (talk) 10:50, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Why is the Special:Statistics page lagging behind by more than 4 million edits? As of now, it says 995,877,695 page edits since Wikipedia was set up. Zarex (talk) 21:08, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't know but it was more than 100 million ahead in 2017.[2] Special:Statistics displays the same as {{NUMBEROFEDITS}} which renders as 1,260,061,753. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:37, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Alt texts

I think, and this also concerns the future of the Main Page (MP), we should include alt texts in images to make it more accessible to those using screen readers. I believe there's a parameter for that on MP templates. User:Gerald Waldo LuisUser talk:Gerald Waldo Luis 15:20, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

@Gerald Waldo Luis: I'm seeing the alt text, for example we have the image :File:Peter Badcoe c.1950's P00942.002.JPG and it includes img alt="Peter Badcoe, c. 1954" . Are you seeing something different? If so, are you using desktop view, mobile view, or mobile app? — User:Xaosflux ^{User talk:Xaosflux} 16:22, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Xaosflux, I too see that. However I don't think that is sufficient as alt text, as it just copy the caption. For Peter Badcoe I expect it to be something like "Portrait of Peter Badcoe", as screen readers probably can't render "c." as "circa." For now, all alt texts here only follow the caption, so I request a different one. User:Gerald Waldo LuisUser talk:Gerald Waldo Luis 01:08, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

@Cwmhiraeth: I see you do a lot of work with MP images (esp POTD), can you comment on this? — User:Xaosflux ^{User talk:Xaosflux} 01:54, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

POTD images have a parameter "texttitle" which I have never really known how to fill out, and have tended just to duplicate the title of the article to which the image is linked. I think I "could do better" in this respect, now that I realise what it is all about. For example, today's texttitle is "Venus with a Mirror", whereas it might be better to have "Painting by Titian showing Venus with a mirror". Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:13, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

@Cwmhiraeth: thanks for the note, the screen readers should already being identifying that there "is an image" so we don't need to do something like say "picture of ...", but if the depicted media type (like in your example a "painting") is relevant, including it could be helpful. Pings to a few other admins that deal with MP content prep for input: @Casliber, Valereee, and Maile66:. — User:Xaosflux ^{User talk:Xaosflux} 14:53, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

thumb @Xaosflux, thanks for the ping. I'd actually support all images on the main page requiring an alt text. We had a discussion about requiring alt text for DYK back in November. There was some opposition because what makes a good alt text isn't well understood by sighted editors, and I think that's a valid concern. The gist of MOS:ALTTEXT is that alt text should convey any information the image conveys to the sighted. It doesn't mean we describe what's in the image. That's not a difference that's easy for sighted people to understand. —valereee (talk) 12:47, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Valereee, commenting on the picture's caption, see my reply to Xaosflux, p. 3. User:Gerald Waldo LuisUser talk:Gerald Waldo Luis 12:49, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

@Gerald Waldo Luis, you mean that a better alt for the image of Elizabeth would be something like "Elizabeth II greeting the public"? Yes, that's what the alt for this photo is. It's a likely caption, too, and the alt shouldn't simply repeat the caption; apparently it's better to simply put "refer to caption" as the alt. Some editors might think the Badcoe photo would need an alt saying "Black and white photo of head and shoulders of a man in Australian Army officer's uniform, turned three-quarters to the right." —valereee (talk) 14:14, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Valereee, yeah, but sadly that's not how the alts for the MP photo currently is. The TFA alt simply reads "York City War Memorial", and the ITN image simply repeats the caption. "Refer to caption" could be fine, however what if the image (like the TFA) has no captions? Suggest having "Photo of the York City War Memorial", instead of just repeating the article title. User:Gerald Waldo LuisUser talk:Gerald Waldo Luis 14:19, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

@Gerald Waldo Luis: I'm certainly not the main audience for alt text reading, but I'm not following why adding "photo of the" would be an improvement here - that it is an image, and the rest of that phrase is already there - basically I don't think the fact that this image was originally produced via photography is important in this case (again, I'm not the primary audience so I may not have the best understanding). — User:Xaosflux ^{User talk:Xaosflux} 14:32, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

undent: Photo of I would say makes it clear what kind of image of the memorial is. Is it a drawing? Painting? Closeup of a specific memorial? "Memorial" does not do a good job communicating that much as a basic level. --Izno (talk) 21:30, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

thumb I think photo/painting/engraving/etching or whatever maybe has to be balanced with brevity. My understanding is that the most important bits of info should go first in the alt. The point of an alt is to allow low-vision readers to get from the image the most important pieces of info that sighted readers get. The image to the right had a hook that said * ... that between 1920 and 1938, the NAACP flew a flag (pictured) at its New York headquarters to mark each lynching that occurred in the United States? The image was captioned "Flag flown by the NAACP". It clearly needed an alt; the crucial information being conveyed to sighted readers was the words the flag had on it. —valereee (talk) 21:50, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Valereee, imagine having the screen reader read "Flag flown by the NAACP". Then the caption is read "Flag flown by NAACP". It's repetitive. User:Gerald Waldo LuisUser talk:Gerald Waldo Luis 12:35, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I know. That's what I'm saying: the image needed an alt that said something like 'Flag reading "A Man Was Lynched Yesterday" or something. That's what the image is conveying to sighted readers that is not being conveyed to those who are blind by the text or caption. And of course we aren't going to write a caption that explains what the flag says; that would look very strange to sighted readers. This is an image that obviously needs an alt. But many editors would write an alt saying 'Plain black banner with silver wording reading "A Man Was Lynched Yesterday"'. Which it shouldn't; at minimum the most important stuff should be first in the alt, and the fact there are silver words on a black background is not part of the information the image is conveying to sighted readers. —valereee (talk) 13:50, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

A related issue: the alt text for today's DYK includes wikilinks. MOS:ALT suggests not to include wiki markup. (Also, one link is to the disambiguation page Joan of France, when Joan of France, Duchess of Bourbon was intended.) Certes (talk) 23:37, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Alt text cannot contain links. It is not a suggestion but a requirement. --Izno (talk) 01:25, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

• So, I've been trying to provide alts for DYKs. What is the best way for this one: Template:Did you know/Preparation area 1? It's this ugly scary weapon, short-handled and with a sort of sickle and a weight at the end of a chain...is that part of what the image communicates to sighted readers? Or do we just refer to caption? —valereee (talk) 00:57, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

  "Two L-shaped bladed weapons, each with a weight attached by chain"? Certes (talk) 01:34, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

  Calling them what they are is fine; "two kusarigama, short-handled sickles with weighted chains attached at the blade" or similar seems fine. --Izno (talk) 04:09, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

  Valereee When I expanded the weapon article, my thought was "cool-looking scary weapon". I see how you arrived at your opinion though. :) SL93 (talk) 01:57, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

  SL93, yes, maybe that is what the image is communicating to sighted readers. That's basically what I thought, too! —valereee (talk) 17:46, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

"refer to caption" is completely useless alt text on the Main Page, because the alt text is the caption ... so I've gone and removed it here. Honestly as a screen reader user I don't think alt text is that useful on the Main Page and shouldn't be a priority here. I found this discussion through an off-wiki chat about the Main Page. GrahamUser talk:Graham87 05:48, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm so confused. Where is alt text useful? And when is 'refer to caption' useful? —valereee (talk) 17:12, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

@Graham87 whoops, sorry, still getting used to the WMF reply tool —valereee (talk) 22:17, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

@Valereee: The crux of the issue is that on the Main Page images do not have thumbnails or frames, so the caption parameter behaves differently there than almost everywhere else ... the caption is the image title and also the alt text. Alt text/"refer to caption" can be useful in articles, especially where the caption doesn't fully describe the image for all readers, but this doesn't apply for the Main Page. Also the Main Page just contains brief overviews/snippets of articles so longer descriptions aren't necessary there. GrahamUser talk:Graham87 02:37, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Wording for banner at top of talk page

Do you think we could make the wording on the banner at the top a little less... combative? Right now it reads:

Welcome! This page is only for discussing the contents of the English Wikipedia's Main Page.

It is not for general questions unrelated to the Main Page, nor is it for the addition of content to Wikipedia articles.

Irrelevant posts will be promptly removed without prior warning.

Click here to report errors on the Main Page.

Proposal

Something like:

Welcome! This page is for discussing the contents of the English Wikipedia's Main Page.

For general questions unrelated to the Main Page, visit the Teahouse or check the links below. To add content to an article, edit that article's page.

Irrelevant posts may be removed.

Click here to report errors on the Main Page.

I think rewording would make it more welcoming to new users, since Wikipedia is difficult enough to navigate and edit as is. Personally, if someone accidentally posted here I don't think it's too big a deal to just point them in the right direction. Thoughts? Fredlesaltique (talk) 06:59, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

I like your proposal. It gets the same message across in a gentler, more welcoming fashion. I also like including a link to the teahouse or other help space. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 18:13, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Agree. I've always thought that after 100 reverts, people here have trouble empathizing with newcomers. Art LaPella (talk) 18:31, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Is this something on which we could perform a crude experiment? For instance, if we try the proposed new wording, could we compare the rate of reverts before and after? If the rate isn't noticeably higher, and we don't notice any other detrimental effects, then the politer version should be preferred. In other words, it seems worth a try, provisionally. Jmchutchinson (talk) 07:31, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

@Jmchutchinson: Could you clarify what you mean by measuring rate of reverts? Fredlesaltique (talk) 08:02, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

My wording was just a response to Art LaPella's comment immediately above ("after 100 reverts"), and the implication that some people are perpetually busy with reverting numerous inappropriate contributions to the main this page. Thinking about it, I probably check the main this page often enough myself to know that there aren't that many cases per day when this needs to be done, but sometimes I see a response steering the errant contributor to a more appropriate venue. The test would be whether the need to do this jumps up if we soften our language. I have no idea if there is an easy way to measure this quantitatively, but maybe we only need to worry if the effect is obvious. Jmchutchinson (talk) 09:56, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Personally, I think if reverts are still occurring under our current banner, then however we word it bears no correlation to how many reverts we will end up having to make. It seems to me that people are just not reading it, the same way people fail to notify editors that they're bringing to WP:ANI despite the big warning at the top of the page.--WaltCip-(talk) 13:45, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

This shouldn't need a lot of big deal discussion to make incremental improvements. It might not help the problem, but could be friendlier. @Fredlesaltique: the text of that box is located here: Talk:Main Page/HelpBox, Be bold and update it!. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:44, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

I've changed the banner! I simply just used the suggested message! Feel free to change it if you think it could be better. Frogface08 (talk) 21:49, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, it looks like I got the ball rolling lol. I've learned that making bold changes on well-trafficked pages leads to ruffled feathers, so I usually post here first to gauge things. @Jmchutchinson:@WaltCip: The way I see it is reverts just come with the game, kinda like how in a restaurant you don't try and prevent 100% of potential customer scams cause it's part of the territory, you just assume good faith and roll with it. Plus people are going to make mistakes, just kinda happens.

Couple other places I'd like to put in more welcoming wording, and glad to hear I wasn't the only one who noticed this. Cheers, Fredlesaltique (talk) 01:52, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

The banner sounds much better now. Thank you Fredlesaltique for this useful proposal! Felix558 (talk) 05:17, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

ITN Covid banner

A discussion regarding keeping/changing/removing the Covid banner at the top of ITN is underway at Wikipedia_talk:In_the_news#COVID-19_banner. Interested editors are invited to comment there. Thank you, — xaosflux ^Talk 00:46, 28 January 2021 (UTC)