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TfD: Template:Geographic_location

FYI

 – pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2017 July 20#Template:Geographic location, which is likely of interest to the regular editors of MOS:ICONS. It cites this guideline, as the template uses decorative icons, but the main issue is whether the template is itself decoration for its own sake, or actually serves an encyclopedic navigation function.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  02:19, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Flags in Infobox country in articles about the country

Does the guidance against using flag icons in infoboxes apply even to {{Infobox country}} in articles about the country? I understand that when an article is about, say, a sportsperson, the country the person is from is only one fact among many about that person, and marking the country with a flag gives it unnecessary prominence. It's also WP:COATRACKy, insofar as while we want to know that Andy Roddick is from the United States, it's as much a digression to then show us that "here is what the U.S. flag looks like" as it would be to list the population of the United States at that point.

But in an article about a country, the country's flag is as pertinent and deserving of prominence as its population, no?

The reason I'm asking is because of this edit by an editor who made several similar edits to other articles at about the same time. If I'm correct and it is acceptable for the flag to be displayed in the infobox in the article about the entity that the flag represents, then this guideline should say so. If it isn't acceptable, then I recommend the guideline clarify this, stating explicitly that flags shouldn't be used in infoboxes even in articles about the places the flags belong to. Largoplazo (talk) 10:35, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

The guideline referenced is about flag icons. I do not think it is relevant to the primary display of a flag. Ian Dalziel (talk) 10:41, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, I see you communicated with him and got this worked out. I would have but wanted to double-check here that I was on firm ground. Largoplazo (talk) 20:02, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Flags in location columns of terrorism list articles

As far as I can tell, every list article linked to from this template uses country flags in the 'location' column on each row in the tables. Does this comply, or not, with this guideline? My view is that it does not, as the locations of the various attacks were not representing their country in any respect. I tried to remove the flags from a couple of articles ([1], [2]), but was swiftly reverted ([3], [4]). Views please. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:51, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

It does not. We permit this in sport and military tables because reliable sources on them tend to do this themselves with tabular data. This is not true of reportage and other sources on terrorism; no one is publishing "score charts", our readers do not expect the information to be presented this way, it's a PoV imposition of nationalistic visual messaging, and it doesn't help the reader understand the encyclopedic material.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  23:17, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

I think their use in these articles are WP:ICONDECORATION and do nothing to help the readers understand the article. LLCoolpp, who reverted the flagicons removal first, tried to keep the articles consistent, but gave no other reason they should be used. The places where attacks occur does not represent the country as StrikeDog claimed. Aspects (talk) 23:53, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Agree with all above - they are inappropriate uses for these articles, particularly as it could possibly be taken with the visual cue that the country is the one that supported the terrorist incident (which, no.). --MASEM (t) 00:43, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

I also agree that the usage is not MOS compliant and your edits to implement the guideline should not have been reverted. Mojoworker (talk) 16:55, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinions on this. It seems we should definitely remove the flag icons from those articles. -- DeFacto (talk). 06:17, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Well that was short-lived! -- DeFacto (talk). 15:07, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

And they're gone again. It's nice to have new editors so long as they follow our guidelines and policies, but too many don't know about them or read them when they are pointed out. Doug Weller talk 18:18, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

And now an IP who is clearly someone with an account logged out (they were CU blocked for 3 months in June) has reverted arguing that they will continue to revert until the flags are removed from all similar articles. Doug Weller talk 18:42, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Last I looked, an outright pledge to continue editwarring is grounds for an insta-block, without any CU stuff having to be invoked.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  10:16, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

I've applied the guideline again in the September article too. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:57, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Removed again. Pinging BeMoreLikeSloths to this discussion. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:02, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

They keep being re-added. I'm very concerned about the contents of these lists. There seems to be a rush to add as much acts of violence (regardless whether they are confirmed to be terrorism) in order to make the list as lengthy as possible.Tvx1 18:18, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

I do agree that some of the content (beyond the flag icons) is certainly not what would fall under a more objective definition of "Terrorism", but that's likely an issue at WP:OR/N. The flags need to go, period. There's no allowance for them at all and implies something worse with their inclusion. --MASEM (t) 20:18, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. Also suggest it's time to have administrative action deal with the editwarring by these parties.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  21:42, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Nobel icons next to name in infobox

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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A new editor has been adding Nobel Prize icons next to the awardees name in the infoboxes. The editor pointed out that this is common on other language wikipedias. (for example, see User talk:GustafSeb) I haven't seen icons used in this way before, and I can't find anything in the MoS to support this. Is there any guideline for or against the usage of icons in this way? Natureium (talk) 15:06, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Examples:

* https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

* https://an.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unión_Europea

* https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europeiska_unionen

* https://af.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dag_Hammarskjöld

It can also be noted that on the Swedish Wikipedia, the Icon is also put in front of the name of the Nobel Prize in the Infobox (se the Albert Einstein article linked above) GustafSeb (talk) 15:13, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, this might be better for the infobox MoS, so I posted this on WT:Manual of Style. Let's move the discussion there. Natureium (talk) 15:24, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Flags in Infobox rockunit

Does the guidance against using flag icons in infoboxes apply to {{Infobox rockunit}} in articles about geological formations? I recently had an edit war with a user citing MOS:INFOBOXFLAG as a reason for removing the flag icon but it is quite common for them to be used in such articles. And I gotta admit it looks quite bare without them. Volcanoguy 05:03, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Inline flag-like icon for Wikidata, at TfD

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2018 January 16#Template:Wikidata icon.

The fact that the nominator was blatantly accused of bad faith in even daring to open this template for discussion says a lot about the bloc vote going on over there right now.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  00:35, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Better example needed?

Repeated use of an icon in a table or infobox. This should only be done if the icon has been used previously with an explanation of its purpose. To me this means we should have the country name in words at least once. In which case List of WPA World Nine-ball Champions fails? Would you agree? Gnevin (talk) 11:29, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, this needs work. It's unclear what the original intent was. One case is obviously that if the nationality parameter already gives the flag icon, then it should not be used again for death place, etc. In sports tables, the consistency of the layout is important and the flags get used repeatedly. Not sure how to encapsulate such a distinction, and there are others (e.g. use in tables about military conflicts).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  12:16, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps replace the example with European_Rugby_Champions_Cup#European_Player_of_the_Year  ? Gnevin (talk) 10:10, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Transit system icons in nav templates

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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In responding to an edit template-protected request (temporarily declined), the question has come up whether to remove transit system icons entirely from station (and perhaps similar) navigational templates, or to preserve them along with plain wording; clearly the icons alone are not sufficient even with alt text because the words in many of them (when they even contain words) are not alway legible in icon size.

I.e., the question is whether to remove the icons like the one shown in front of "London Underground" in this example:

I declined the request at least initially because an argument can be made that the icons are helpful to a subset of editors (each is recognizable instantly to anyone familiar with the transit system in question) and thus are not purely decorative; these icons do not raise the socio-political and WP:UNDUE issues that overuse and misuse of flag icons do; and we're more tolerant of such images in nav templates than elsewhere. On the other hand, the icons are surely not necessary, and it's not clear how helpful they are nor to what percentage of readers. I remain neutral on the question; this is a procedural nomination so template editors know what to do.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  18:32, 18 November 2017 (UTC); revised: 20:12, 25 November 2017 (UTC); clarified: 08:03, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

• Keep, for recognition. Useddenim (talk) 22:22, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
  particularly when there are multiple lines/operators/modes at a major station. Useddenim (talk) 22:41, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
• Whether an icon is decorative is not a question of it being recognized, it's of question of what function it has. In this example I do no see how this gives our readers any additional information. It doesn't tell anything the text doesn't already tell them. So yes, they are purely decorative and therefore at odds with these guideline and should not be retained.Tvx1 14:22, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: Maybe open an RfC. I guess it would be best to not show them at all for consistency, unless only the icon is shown and not the text (which wouldn't apply to the templates used above). Jc86035 (talk) 12:13, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

I'll put put an RfC tag on this, since it already asks a clear question.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  20:12, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

• Support removal. I don't see any evidence that these icons provide additional information that text doesn't already provide and thus that they are not decorative. The guidelines is clear in that case they should not be used.Tvx1 21:54, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
• Remove them all. Not only are some of these icons being used as text, which is absolutely unacceptable at any time due to accessibility implications; the icons as a whole are blatant cruft. We are an encyclopedia, not a train guide. The systems are clearly identifiable by their names; like Tvxl says above, this is a clear violation of the MOS's directives on decorative images. James (^talk/_contribs) 11:00, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
• Keep. I'm generally opposed to "icon cruft" for the sake of it, but, in considering SMcCandlish's example above, I do find that the icon aids recognition and adds to the text. No, we are not a "train guide", but equally we should not exclude graphical aids to recognition where they can be helpful, and, the more I consider it, the more I feel they can actually be helpful, alongside the text, in this scenario. With regards to "it's not clear how helpful they are nor to what percentage of readers.", I agree - but if we accept that they are helpful at all, to any readers, then what 'improvement' do we achieve by their removal? -- Begoon 11:32, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
• Keep — they make for faster recognition than text alone. Obviously the text must also be present, as per the WP:ACCESS argument already mentioned, but at a glance, they make it quicker to see what is what. —Joeyconnick (talk) 23:26, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
• Comment in regard to the recognition argument − these logos are only recognizable to a) people who already use the system in question (i.e., locals) and b) railfans. Keeping them strikes me as special pleading and a failure of our obligation to write for a general audience. James (^talk/_contribs) 00:44, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Well, I live 12,000 miles from London, it's hard to be less 'local', and I am no 'railfan', yet the icon in the above example aids recognition for me. The names of the stations might "only be recognisable to locals" too - should we also omit them in our quest to "write for a general audience"? From the guideline, as far as I am concerned, the icons "serve as visual cues that aid the reader's comprehension, [and] improve navigation", so should be retained. -- Begoon 01:45, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

My family and I easily and readily recognize the logo as it is so firmly associated with the London Underground, and by extension, London. Considering the millions of annual visitors (including me) to London and its cosmopolitan nature, it has wide recognition beyond the locale. Even though I am from Nor Cal, I find the words London Underground incomplete without the icon--at least in this context. Thus, I too believe the inclusion of the icon aides comprehension and writes for the general audience. Thanks for everyone's work.Horst59 (talk) 22:20, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

I could have been able to agree with you if it were the only such logo in use. That is not the case however. Transport for London has twelve such roundels in use for different systems differentiated only by a specific color. For instance, in Queens Park (London) station the navboxes contains two such roundels with only a tiny difference in color yet signaling a different railway service. A difference the many users which do not have full color vision can't see. Moreover, one of the railway services listed there even has two icons for the same bit of text, which only increases the confusion. In the infobox, there are two roundels as well which are not differentiable. So no, I really can't agree that this is appropriate, helpful use of icons.Tvx1 22:48, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

You make a compelling point, User:Tvx1, and I believe you are right. Accessibility is critical, and as information, information fails when it lacks clarity, causes confusion. Thanks for letting us know about the similar design and colors.Horst59 (talk) 23:42, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Transit system icons in non-transit infoboxes

Should transit system icons be used in non-transit infoboxes? The two types of infoboxes that use these icons the most are Template:Infobox venue and Template:Infobox museum in their publictransit field even though both give the same advice of "Example: [[Roosevelt/State (CTA)|Roosevelt Station]], [[Chicago Transit Authority]]" like Soldier Field does.

Some articles use generic bus and rail icons (Cardiff Story Museum), some use the transit logos (Spectrum Stadium) and others use templates like rail color box (Golden 1 Center). The article that brought me to start this discussion was the icon overload that is Madison Square Garden.

These icons have their place in transit infoboxes, but I oppose the use of these icons in non-transit infoboxes. The infobox parameters do not use them as examples, they do not provide additional information that the text does not provide thus being decorative against WP:ICONDECORATION, some of the icons are being used as text against WP:ACCESS and the icons could also be seen as going against WP:TRAVELGUIDE.Aspects (talk) 17:12, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't see any problem with generic icons (e.g. {{rail-interchange|bus}} , {{rail-interchange|subway}} , etc.) plus route name or number to indicate mode and service(s), but anything beyond this is unnecessary window-dressing. Useddenim (talk) 23:38, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

The trouble with those icons is that with out you using tlx to show the name that would of been meaningless to me Gnevin (talk) 12:36, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

MoS and another "decoration" matter

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Misuse of code syntax highlighting.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:09, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Questionable use of flags: for national-cuisine entries in articles on foodstuffs

Resolved

See, e.g. Chicharrón. I don't think the flags here are appropriate, and their use is making the material into kind of a pseudo-table, plus it's also inspired a lot of WP:PROSELINE by trying to make entries look tabularly consistent instead of being well-written as an article.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:20, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. There's no formal representation here to justify the use of flags. --Masem (t) 14:42, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm with Masem on this. Tony (talk)

Me too. --John (talk) 14:58, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

I would agree - no reason for those flags. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:56, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

I concur – not an appropriate use. Mojoworker (talk) 14:31, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

This is about the response I predicted (given that I wrote the gist of this guideline. >;-) I've replaced [5] that mess with a tidy MOS:DLIST, though it still needs copyediting for WP:PROSELINE.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:37, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Alt text, and text-based "icons"

I've been rewriting {{Rail color box}} in Lua.

• Does this guideline apply to templates like {{Color box}}? Currently the hatnote at the top reads as though the guideline would apply to "Template:TransLink (BC) box" (because it uses a Unicode character), but not to "    " or "BR", even though they perform the same function.
• Do linked text-based icons need to have alt text/title text, or does that section only apply to images?

Jc86035 (talk) 10:34, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

@Jc86035: "For the purposes of this guideline, icons encompasses any small images – including logos, crests, coats of arms, seals, flags, etc. – whether produced by small image files, typographic dingbats, or emojis." I.e., Unicode glyphs and such are included; it doesn't just mean "image files". Use of just color by itself should probably be considered in light of MOS:ICONS "in spirit", and also per MOS:ACCESS#Color. E.g., if color is used, make sure it's not the only way to distinguish, but is just used as an adjunct for those with full-color vision. And don't use template and CSS trickery to include a colored box as a pseudo-icon to evade restrictions about an actual icon. Transit-related templates, like sports ones, do make use of a fair amount of color, and we also use color coding in various charts and graphs. So, apply WP:Common sense. PS: When alt text can be applied at all, it would probably be to just suppress any output; the icons don't mean anything to the blind, so they need not be explained in situ, unless they're actually the topic of the sentence, I suppose (e.g., about a change in design). One might need to do some kind of vision-impairment compensation when it comes to using colors as keys/legends for tabular data; I would ask at WT:MOSACCESS, since this has probably come up before.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:29, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

PS: If people are doing things like BR, we should probably upgrade the guideline to address this sort of thing, at least in a footnote. I.e., it's not okay do so stuff like that in mid-sentence, for the same reason it's not okay to do in mid-sentence, either.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:29, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

In the case of {{TransLink (BC) box}} above (to generate "Template:TransLink (BC) box"), that's being used at {{TransLink Services}} to indicate where transfers are, so appropriate alt text might be "Transfer available to [name] Line", right? Seems like the ability to add alt text should be included in these types of templates for when they are used as shorthand rather than merely decorative additions. —Joeyconnick (talk) 18:50, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish and Joeyconnick: I haven't seen any uses like that within body text; it seems to be most common in lists and tables (probably because of WP:COLOR restrictions). I'm not sure whether it would actually be technically correct to add alt text, or whether it would do anything. Module:MTR did add title text, but I didn't replace the title attribute (which might have been correct). I could add the alt attribute to the module, since the module currently extracts the page name part of a wikitext link and puts it in one of the coloured boxes, and the display text part of those links could be harvested for the alt text. Jc86035 (talk) 19:07, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, alt text isn't "a Wikipedia thing", it's part of the underlying HTML spec (see alt attribute), and it's only available for specific objects, like images. About the only way to fake one here would be to actually use a transparent image over a colored background, or use a colored image with that same color, and apply the alt text to the image.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:20, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: Thanks; I think I probably misunderstood a (different) Stack Overflow post about this which suggested it was valid to put the alt attribute on a link. Jc86035 (talk) 19:25, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Anyway, unless my memory is badly failing me, we once already had some wording in the guideline about not using CSS and HTML tricks to try to get around the guideline and simulate icons then use them inline in regular prose. Regardless, we should have it. The wikilawyering-minded are always going to try to game the system, to exploit loopholes that are not really loopholes (because WP:P&G, WP:CONSENSUS, WP:GAMING, etc., tell us to interpret the rules as intended, not as to the exact letter of their wording). It's just an order of magnitude more efficient to insert a footnote about this than to deal with repeat wikilawyering attempts as they arise. I remember writing this page (in anything like its present form) originally about flags only. Then it had to cover all icons (due to, e.g., misuse of highway-sign icons in mid-sentence), then it expanded to cover Unicode/ASCII decorative dingbats, and then emoji. This is just the next "nope, don't decorate that way either" matter. All of this stuff needs to be constrained to a) tabular data presentation, and b) only when actually useful to the reader even in that context, and c) only when not problematic for other reasons.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:25, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:List of female racing drivers#Use of flags

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:List of female racing drivers#Use of flags. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:59, 30 August 2018 (UTC)Template:Z48

Nobel prizes and flags, again

See Talk:List of Christian Nobel laureates#Flags and countries. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:12, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Decorative use of CSS font stuff

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Station names in ALLCAPS?, which also involves CSS font-manipulation techniques (whether for recognizability or decorative intent) like that illustrated in the infobox in this diff.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:54, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Edit to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Icons#Do not use icons in general article prose

Re: this edit: Icons should not be used in prose in the article body.

This was quickly reverted by PlanespotterA320 with the summary: "Undid revision 873439965 by Cinderella157 (talk) you literally changed the wording of this page right after I quoted it in a discussion - that's low".

The edit I made was to have the guidance be consistent with both the heading of the section and with the example. It appears that the text, in its original form can (and has been) misconstrued or misrepresented by quoting out of the context. The intent is clearly wrt use in prose and not from the main body of the article more generally (such as in tables or lists).

The reverting reinstates the ambiguity that occurs when quoting the passage "out of context". It would therefore appears to be contrary to P&G. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 06:53, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

If the intent of this edit is to make it more permissible to insert more icons, then I oppose. All that would do is encourage "decorators" to convert good prose into lists and tables (against MOS:USEPROSE) just so they could get away with adding more little pictures.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:54, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

SMcCandlish, the intent of the edit was to clarify the statement per the heading of the section and the example, where the context was being misrepresent by quoting the previous words out of context. I do not see it as actually changing the advice at all. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 23:50, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

So, what problem is it seeking to solve? If people are trying to say that icons cannot be used in a table of Olympics results, because the table is in the body, they're obviously wrong since the rest of the guideline makes it clear that such use is permissible. If there genuinely is an interpretation problem, then we have a WP:Writing policy is hard matter; changing the extant wording has to be done in a way that cannot be system-gamed. Cross-referencing other WP:P&G material is usually be best proof against such problems. E.g.: "Icons should not be used in prose in the article body. [Keep the existing example here.] However, prose should not be converted to a list or table as an excuse to include icons; only material that is best presented as a list or table should be in such a format." But I'm not sure if this addresses the original issue between you and PlanespotterA320, since I don't know where that conversation is.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  10:27, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

SMcCandlish, it was much a case of the "obviously wrong", from quoting the text literally and out of the context of the section within which it was written (and the example) to mean a broader prohibition. My post was part of BRD. The matter is resolved here and elsewhere. If you feel it necessary to know more, message me. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 11:00, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:2019 Monte Carlo Rally#National flags

There is currently a discussion underway at Talk:2019 Monte Carlo Rally#National flags regarding the use of flagicons in articles for sporting events where there is no organised competition between nations. 1.144.108.211 (talk) 21:12, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Like Pelmeen10 said "Representing a nation has a much wider meaning than just competing against each other.", using flagicons should not be limited to representing countries. Removing flags is a ridiculous and unachievable idea because almost all sports-related WikiProjects used flagicons for years. If the flagicons have to be removed for the so-called "flagicons should only be used to indicate the nationality of someone representing their nation in competition", then there will be and certainly will be an earth-shaking impact to almost all sports-related WikiProjects like WP:F1, WP:Tennis, WP:Snooker, etc. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 01:46, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

First paragraph: Icons may be helpful in certain situations: They are useful in articles about international sporting events, to show the representative nationality of players (which may differ from their legal nationality). Example: List of WPA World Nine-ball Champions. Pelmeen10 (talk) 04:01, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

It is completely inappropriate to be posting these comments here. The purpose of starting this discussion is to inform editors of a discussion elsewhere. To continue a discussion here when there is another discussion elsewhere may be considered consensus-shopping—you don't get the result you want in one discussion, but you do get it in another, so you ignore the first and rely on the second. Case in point, you cite the MOS as a guideline here and suggest that editors are free to follow as they see fit, but here you voice opposition to the proposed change, citing the scale of the changes that would need to accomodate it. If, as your comment in the original discussion suggested, editors are free to observe or ignore the MOS as they see fit, then we are free to stop using the flagicons without worrying how it affects other articles. You cannot argue it both ways. At the very least it is very poor etiquette because it looks like you are trying to influence the course of the discussion separate to it. 1.144.108.211 (talk) 07:30, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

First, my original point is that MOS is just a recommendation. However, I said per WP:SILENCE, adding flagicons is a consensus. That is to say, the action of adding flagicons or not is not decided by the recommendation, i.e. WP:ICON, which means flagicons should not be removed.

Second, I agree with Pelmeen10's point. That is to say, even with the recommendation, flagicons still should be there because all drivers and co-drivers are naturally represent their country. That's the reason why the fans are proud of them after winning a event.

Are they contradictory? No. They are progressive relations. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 08:40, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree, they are here to stay, and I don't really have any problem with them. Some people get bent out of shape if they see even one icon. My only observation is that if I were creating a auto racing or tennis page, I would do my best to link the icon the first time only with a person. So something like 2018 Miami Open – Men's Singles would have the opening round listed with flags but subsequent rounds would be sans flag. I don't see any real need to have them more than once, but that's just me... the vast majority of tennis editors disagree with me. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:21, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click) — I have suggested that as a compromise. In this article alone there are close to four hundred flagicons, most of which are repeated at least once after their first use. I don't see what that adds to the article other than padding it out. I estimate that we could save anywhere between 12,000 and 15,000kB of data from an article simply by cutting redundant flagicons out of it. 1.144.108.211 (talk) 10:14, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Flags and military commanders

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Talk:Sino-Vietnamese conflicts, 1979–1991#RfC – a MOS:FLAGS matter, about military commanders.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:25, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Notice of conversation of interest

Hi. Notice of conversation at Talk:2019 World Snooker Championship regarding usage of flags within sporting articles. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:27, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Flagicons in predecessor/successor

Some templates like {{Infobox former country}} are providing parameters for flag icons that do not comply with MOS:FLAGS. I'll just quote Ealdgyth on this, from a different page, talking about this example (the two flag icons for predecessor and successor countries):

Just because an infobox has a field, does not make that field conform to the MOS. MOS:FLAGICON - "Generally, flag icons should not be used in infoboxes, even when there is a "country", "nationality" or equivalent field: they are unnecessarily distracting and give undue prominence to one field among many" and "Flag icons should only be inserted in infoboxes in those cases where they convey information in addition to the text" and lastly "Human geographic articles – for example settlements and administrative subdivisions – may have flags of the country and first-level administrative subdivision in infoboxes" - but note the "MAY" and the "first level" - I hardly think that covers things like historical flags. And in any case - the first two quotes I have highlighted certainly are important here - they have as much importance as anything else. Do not worry - I don't plan to edit war over this - but I've removed those types of flags quite often, and only rarely run into people who object. In those cases, I usually just let them revert... figuring someone else will remove them later as precedent is very much on the side of removing them, rather than having them. ... Ealdgyth - Talk 18:50, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

My own take on this: Yeah, those two flag icons were not just distracting visual noise, they were downright visually confusing, because the template is mis-coded and they do not align properly. The template should not have parameters for this, because doing it is non-guideline-compliant, even if someone actually knew how to use CSS properly.

It looks like we need to review this series of templates for "screw MOS:ICONS, I'm going to implement my cute decorations anyway" coding, and remove it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:45, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Also relevant: BilCat observes:

[T]he "foreign_suppliers" parameter in Template:Infobox national military has a tendency to become a flag farm, as seen in Armed Forces of the Dominican Republic and People's Liberation Army. ... - BilCat (talk) 00:28, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Some other potential-problem pages noted by Ealdgyth:

• List of diplomatic missions of the United States.
• Responses to the 2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis
• International reactions to the Arab Spring
• Reactions to the death of Bhumibol Adulyadej
• Reactions to the 2016 Brussels bombings
• Much else in Category:Reactions and its many subcategories (most of the content of which appears to be non-encyclopedic claptrap, failing either WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE or WP:NOT#DIRECTORY or WP:NOT#NEWS or some combination of these).

So, the issue is beyond just those infoboxes with "country" in their names.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:16, 14 April 2019 (UTC); updated: 03:40, 22 April 2019 (UTC); fixing ping to BilCat  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:43, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

• Absolutely. We need to be judicious in using these often-distracting, low-info icons. See my comment here. Tony (talk) 02:09, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
• I'm tempted to say that we should nix the use of any flag icon. They are basically so abused otherwise. --Masem (t) 04:17, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
  • This doesn't even touch the use of the little road icons, which get used not only in road articles, but also in city articles - see Oklahoma City#Highway or the infobox at Danbury, Connecticut or Charleston, South Carolina#Major highways. The problem of the flagicons is going to be made more difficult by the sports and military projects, which seem to be particularly fond of little colored blobs. It's not just common flags either - I'm constantly removing either coats of arms from Battle of Hastings (which weren't in use then), or having to deal with fanciful flags for things like here, where we have icons in use such as File:Mameluke Flag.svg which specifically states "This image is somewhat speculative. It is drawn after the Catalan Atlas, a primary source of the late 14th century. This means that the flag is indeed attested in a (Western) source dated to the Mamluk period, but it does not follow that this flag was indeed in use, let alone that it is "the" Mamluk flag." but yet its in use in a good number of pages. Or we have File:Flag of Ayyubid Dynasty.svg which says "The Ayyubid dynasty is often represented by the colour yellow." and "The Ayyubids and Mamluks, who succeeded the Fatimids in Egypt and Syria, retained the association of yellow with the ruler. Salah al-Din (Saladin), the founder of the Ayyubid dynasty, carried a yellow flag emblazoned with an eagle, supposedly inherited from the Zangid dynasty, whose protégé he had been." but yet is in use all over the place as the symbol of the Ayyubid's without noting that there isn't secure attestation of the actual depiction used. And I've yet to be persuaded that any of the icons in the infobox like at Fall of Constantinople tell anyone anything. And then there's Eurovision Song Contest 1956.... And then there's 1953 British Mount Everest expedition... Ealdgyth - Talk 14:17, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

    Some quick 'sponses: The highway signage cruft was clearly against the guideline. I've reverted it at all three articles. It was especially bad in the infobox in the second one, since no text was provided at all. In general, the sports and military stuff has been "cooling down", with the more experienced and deliberative editors in those topics backing off from excessive icon use. I've even seen sports-focused editors defend the removal of inappropriate flag icons, especially from bio infoboxes of sports figures who do not consistently compete as a national representative (or a particular nation's rep), but also from tables of results in competitions that aren't nationalized. It still bears a lot of watching and cleanup, of course, but it's not as bad as it once was. Using the putative but dubious Mamluk flag is clearly WP:OR and thus not permissible. PS, re "nix the use of any flag icon": That won't fly; getting this guideline a narrow as it's gotten and actually accepted as a guideline took a hell of a lot of wrangling. We obviously have several entrenched camps of "icon fans" – part of a larger group of "decoration fans", like those who keep ignoring MOS:BQ and using decorative pull quote templates like {{cquote}} and {{quote box}} (not intended for mainspace) to put cutesy giant quotation marks or "visually poppin'" boxes around block quotations, and so on. I don't think it would be a productive fight to pick. This is a frog we've been boiling very slowly. Or: move an elephant with gentle, constant pressure, not by running at it full tilt and trying a body-check, which'll just put you on your own ass. >;-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:00, 23 April 2019 (UTC); forgot pings: Masem. 18:04, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

    Perhaps there's something along these lines... when I look at Reactions to the 2016 Brussels bombings (ugh on several points but focusing on flags), I don't see their need because the list is presented alphabetically (a very logical, implicitly-known ordering), so if I want to know what, say, Sudan has to say, I can quickly breeze the letters leading each: the flag gives me nothing and thus do not help. Whereas in something like 2016 Summer Olympics medal table where the ordering is not so implicitly obvious, the flags can help me visually find the country of interest. Or similarly in the infobox of World War II, which countries were on which side which is not implitict knowledge. So maybe there's something appropriate for using flags when nationality is important and the information is presented in a way that is not logically easy to determine order/arrangement (eg not alphabetical). --Masem (t) 18:44, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

    Yep, that's a good distinction to draw.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:09, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Decorative template for redacted content

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Talk:Mueller Report#Reference formats – Discussion about using decorative template, {{redacted content}}, to simulate the appearance of blacked-out material in censored documents, e.g. CENSORED. While this is not an icon, exactly, MOS:ICONS is where we address the use of CSS, Unicode, and other font tricks to simulate graphical effects inline in article text; so, this is the proper MoS sub-page to notify about the discussion.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:07, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Similar ongoing thread, about another subject area: Wikipedia talk:Manual_of Style#Station names in ALLCAPS (redux).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:21, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Request for input

Input from regulars here would be helpful at this discussion. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:45, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Example is out of date (by 12 years)

In the "Accompany flags with country names" section it says Following this, the flag alone is used to identify the nationality of military commanders.) To achieve this, the flag-and-name template {{flag|Japan}} (or {{flag|JPN}}) would be used first, and {{flagicon|JPN}} in subsequent uses. However, some editors feel that some tables such as those containing sports statistics (example) are easier to read if {{flag}} is used throughout. The tables on the example page were edited in 2007 to only show the flagicons, so this is not a very good example to use. The text above predates this change, so it was once correct. Spike 'em (talk) 23:14, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

You're right. And this is not really the only aspect on which this part of MOS is outdated. Many more templates have been created since, thus providing for more alternatives than just {{flag}}. And other templates like {{flagicon}} have evolved massively to deal with the accessibility issues which once made their use problematic in many areas.Tvx1 13:43, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

How do these get updated then, as it is difficult trying to reach consensus on article content using out of date MOS criteria (there is a discussion on possible overuse of unattributed flags at WT:FOOTY). Spike 'em (talk) 13:52, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

This certainly needs cleaning up. Potentially an WP:RFC, if someone created a few different versions, or options, or at least noted if {{flagicon}} met WP:ACCESS requirements, so able to simply update this. I'll notify the main MOS page. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:34, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Request for input on a flag-in-infobox discussion

There is a discussion at Template_talk:Infobox_election#Flag about how to apply MOS:FLAG. Further input would be welcomed. Bondegezou (talk) 14:45, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Flagicon user warning proposal

See Wikipedia_talk:Template_messages/User_talk_namespace#Draft_pending_submission regarding the proposal to add uw-flag1 to uw-flag4 warning flags AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 00:18, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

RfC: New user warning

Old discussion

Should there be a new multi-level user warning series, which would be called {{uw-flag1}}, for violating this specific guideline, separate from the existing {{uw-mos1}} series? –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:17, 14 July 2019 (UTC) @LaundryPizza03: do you see a lot of need for this? In the discussion linked below, you mention only two cases from a period of 6 years. And if someone is approaching WP:ANI levels of disruption, perhaps it's best to simply explain to them in your words what they're doing wrong. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 13:04, 31 July 2019 (UTC) I'm not a regular user of the uw- templates, so I'm unlikely to use one if created, but there's definitely scope for that: I come across new editors inappropriately adding flags all the time. I don't know if there is a need for several levels though: do we often get users ignoring the first warning? – Uanfala (talk) 11:28, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Trying again

Sorry, the last RfC template was removed prematurely by a bot. To repeat, should there be a new multi-level user warning series, which would be called {{uw-flag1}}, for violating this specific guideline, separate from the existing {{uw-mos1}} series? (The draft was G13'd in the interim and is currently waiting WP:REFUND.) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:46, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

It wasn't "removed prematurely", it was removed after the standard thirty-day period, see WP:RFC#Duration. Also, that happened seven months ago, so why are you complaining now? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:07, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Lack of consensus. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 10:20, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Do we really need an RfC for this? Did this need to be a draft? We do have WP:BOLD. The couple comments that are here seem to be skeptical that there's much need for this specific of a case, but then again, there are warning templates that I've never used and doubt I ever will. So just make the templates, and then maybe ask them to be included in Twinkle (and Huggle too?). I might suggest that this is more of the single-issue notice/warning type rather than the standard 1-4 series. If people are really that strongly opposed to their existence, they can always nominate for deletion. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 16:58, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Agreed with Deacon Vorbis, so I'm removing the RfC tag. Just go ahead and create it; it's not doing any harm. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 02:12, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done It can be found at {{uw-flag}}. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:14, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Is this a MOS:FLAG violation?

List of Marxian economists. I think it is, but am not sure. If anyone replies could they please ping me? Thanks. Doug Weller talk 17:49, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Well strictly speaking it's not a violation. MOS:FLAGS is not a policy or rule. But I do believe it's not appropriate usage of flags. The listed people don't represent their nation in a sports competition or in a military conflict. As such the nationalities aren't really relevant there. In fact I'm not even convinced that the list is actually a subject with encyclopedic value and thus that it should even exist here.Tvx1 18:00, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

It's definitely a MOS:FLAG violation, there's no real tie of "economics" (regardless of their larger theory) to their nationality, so the flags are just decorative. --Masem (t) 18:09, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks all. Doug Weller talk 13:14, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Sporting nationality

If you want to flag wave, fine, but is this a correct use of a flag? First, "United States" is not a nationality, "American" is. Second, he, like most golfers, has never represented the nation, he is only from it. Not sure why this is permitted. Not watching this page so if you want me to respond to something please {{ping}} me. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:04, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Having checked a few articles in Category:American male golfers, it would appear to be standard practice. Number 57 20:46, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Hmm, it should either be that flags are suitable to display nationalities in the infobox or not at all. Perhaps the golf project should have this looked at. (I personally don't mind it, but we should be consistent). Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:26, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Seems unnecessary. I'd be in favour of generally removing these icons from all the infoboxes. Bondegezou (talk) 21:09, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

There's many exceptions at MOS:SPORTFLAGS (which I wouldnt mind removing).—Bagumba (talk) 00:36, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for that. The text there says, "Flags should never indicate the player's nationality in a non-sporting sense; flags should only indicate the sportsperson's national squad/team or representative nationality." If this golfer has never represented the nation, then policy appears clear: no flag should be used. @Walter Görlitz: Bondegezou (talk) 10:54, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Even more convoluted, it also says If a sportsperson has not competed at the international level, then the eligibility rules of the international sport governing body (such as IRB, FIFA, IAAF, etc.) should be used.—Bagumba (talk) 13:46, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

What exceptions were you talking about with regards to MOS:SPORTFLAGS? These are not exceptions. That is simply the guideline for flags with regards to sports. There have been many extensive discussions (recentmost) about this subject and they resulted in the current wording of the guideline. If thus reflects the current community consensus. If you want to change the consensus you need to initiate a properly advertised discussion. Moreover MOS:FLAGS is most certainly NOT a policy. It is a guideline. This can be seen because it is identified as such on top of the page an by the normative ("should") rather than prescriptive ("must") language it uses. Now, I will point out that this particular thread started out with the same flawed logic of using a far too restrictive view on what constitutes "representing a nation" (for which ironically the OP was already criticized in the aforementioned discussion). In any case though it is not in the scope of MOS:ICONS to try to dictate whether nationality is relevant in a certain sport. If there is a genuine concern about including nationalities in golfers' biographies, that should be raised at WP:GOLF. The affected parties should be involved.Tvx1 20:04, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

There was a fair bit of controversy on that recentmost discussion you linked to. I remember User:SMcCandlish contested the close, and for example see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons/Archive 14#The previous Formula One "consensus" and an editor's odd interpretation of it. The discussion was opened about F1 nationalities and the close generalized it to all "athletes in an international competition". So, following that close there was "confusion as to the breadth of the result of the original consensus and the ambiguity left in the closing statement by the non-admin closer", as I said at the time that I requested review of the close. The non-admin closer, Technical 13, promised to provide the rationale behind his close and the scope, but he kept delaying and no Admin weighed in on the discussion, and it was eventually archived without any action. Shortly after, Technical 13 was the subject of an Arbcom case, and was indefinitely banned by the Arbitration Committee, near as I can tell for "evidence of sockpuppetry that was discovered after the case was accepted." Confirmed here. Technical 13 never did provide the promised decision and scope rationale. After the case closed, I posed a question to the arbs about how to proceed, but I didn't have the energy then to start another discussion here or at AN, especially since I was uninvolved in the original disscussion. But the close and closer seemed problematic. Anyway that's some of the convoluted backstory. Mojoworker (talk) 23:00, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

To be fair, it was only you and SMcCandlish who contested the close there. One person actually did state at the closure review that they didn’t see an issue with the close. It was a proper community discussion and the community’s consensus was pretty clear.Tvx1 23:59, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

To be fair, there were a number of others at the "odd interpretation" discussion and the one person that "didn't see an issue with the close" was the only person who supported it. I think most were waiting for Technical 13's promised rationale for broadening the scope, which never arrived. I guess we'll never know since he's banned. Mojoworker (talk) 00:33, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I generally concur with Mojoworker. But I'm not sure this matters, per WP:CCC. It's clear that SPORTFLAGS is not being consistently interpreted by editors, nor consistently implemented in articles, so it probably needs revision. I don't have my finger on the pulse of the issue, though, so I'm not sure what would make a good RfC question, or a proposed revision.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:02, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

I strongly doubt you will ever achieve this site-wide consistency. That's just not how an editing community like this works. Certainly not with what is merely a guideline which by nature involves common sense when interpreting and implementing it. It would actually serve the community if some users would finally stop trying to abuse this guideline by trying to make a black and white rule out of that strictly outlaws the usage of flags nearly everywhere.Tvx1 14:53, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Wording of MOS:INFOBOXFLAG

I'd like to raise something that has bugging me for years in the hope that I can finally be addressed. For years this part of the guideline has contained the following wording:

"they are unnecessarily distracting and give undue prominence to one field among many."

I feel that that exact wording is inappropriate for a guideline. Mainly because it presents what's really a personal opinion as un undisputed fact. I feel it would be better if a more informative style of wording would be used here. Something like:

"they may be unnecessarily distracting and could give undue prominence to one field among many."

Such wording is much more in the spirit of a guideline.Tvx1 18:52, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Anyone have any objections here? If not, I'll implement the more informative style of wording.Tvx1 14:49, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@Tvx1: It was the pov of one editor. And considering that sentence was added years ago with no discussion whatsoever, and no one commented to you in 3 weeks, I see no problem with the change. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:33, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Should WP:DECOR be implemented?

While I remove these decorations rather often, referring to WP:DECOR of course, and usually not seeing any objections (of course), sometimes I stumble upon things like this one. Worse yet, the latter seems to be backed up by the well-known invalid argument commonly known as WP:OTHERSTUFF. Can you please review it? — Mike Novikoff 19:50, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussion at List of highest-grossing non-English films

I would appreciate any input at a new discussion at Talk:List of highest-grossing non-English films#Should we use flags? for use of flagicons in a list of films. Aspects (talk) 13:57, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Should inline icons be used for sister project links in citations?

Please join the discussion at Template talk:Cite wikisource#Icons. Thanks! Kaldari (talk) 19:38, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Discussion at Now United

There is a new discussion at Talk:Now United#No, flags are not limited to sports whether or not flagicons should be used in a pop group's member section. Any opinions would be appreciated. Aspects (talk) 04:32, 22 September 2020 (UTC)