Talk:Arrowverse

Stargirl, again

The CW released new Arrowverse character posters in August 3, 2020: CW has released seven new season posters for CW’s slate of Arrowverse shows (Supergirl, DC’s Legends of Tomorrow, The Flash, Black Lightning, Stargirl, Superman & Lois) sporting a timely, coronavirus-themed look.[1]. Could it be considered an official statement that Stargirl is part of the Arrowverse? - Shiizhang (talk) 03:28, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Deadline calling it that does not make it official. Gonnym (talk) 06:15, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Maybe as of this moment, "Arrowverse" only refers to shows that take place on Earth-Prime. Kailash29792 (talk) 07:56, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Why Stargirl Isn't In The Arrowverse from Screen Rant. Sums up the issue nicely, and correctly. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 14:43, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks all. I agree with Screen Rant. - Shiizhang (talk) 01:52, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

We now have a CW promo video though that does include Stargirl in its CWverse so this may have to be revisited. EvWill (talk) 14:28, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

The CWverse and the Arrowverse arent exactly the same thing. Spanneraol (talk) 14:39, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Arrowverse is synonymous with CWverse for most watchers of the franchise, but for some reason a few of the editors here have a need to make a distinction. In the real world it is apparent to anyone watching the CW shows that Stargirl is part of the Arrowverse, meaning the entire franchise of shows on the CW. We don't need to wait for an actual crossover with The Flash or anything, but I know from Supergirl even that would not be enough for some. To me, the network including Stargirl in their Arrowverse marketing promoting their entire franchise means they view it as part of the entire franchise. I think some people are viewing this too much with In-universe eyes. Jmj713 (talk) 15:07, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Well the "arrowverse" is an in universe thing... the cwverse promos are just promoting all the shows on their network... it doesn't make them connected in the in-universe cannon. Spanneraol (talk) 16:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

No, the Arrowverse is a media franchise on the CW Network. In-universe they never say they're in "the Arrowverse". You would be right if you said Earth-1 or Prime Earth, but that's not what this article is about. This is about a real-world television franchise. Note that the latest CW promo did not include Swamp Thing. Even though it's a DC show airing on the CW. If it had, I would gladly include Swamp Thing in the Arrowverse as well. Jmj713 (talk) 16:36, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

An interesting comment in the source we're using for the ending of Supergirl states Supergirl [...] exists in the same universe as Arrow, The Flash, DC’s Legends of Tomorrow, Black Lightning, Batwoman and recent DC Universe transplant Stargirl. -- /Alex/₂₁ 03:57, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Counterpoint. Again, we should go off of what happens on screen (all series except Stargirl are on Earth-Prime per Crisis) and past comments from producers which have stated it's all the Earth-1 series that are the "Arrowverse". That's why we didn't have Black Lightning here until Crisis, even though it debuted on the CW. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:27, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Again, I disagree. But seems there's just no sense in going over these points in circles. I can pretty much guarantee that Stargirl will have the same fate as Black Lightning, where this article will finally recognize it as part of the Arrowverse only after an official crossover, while for every regular viewer of these shows, especially I imagine with Stargirl's upcoming second season, the show's already part of it, obviously. So this article is always late to the game. Jmj713 (talk) 15:13, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Just a reminder that Wikipedia is (primarily) supposed to reflect what the secondary sources are saying--it's very slow. DonQuixote (talk) 15:24, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Exactly, secondary. Which is why I completely disagree with the statement that "we should go off of what happens on screen [...] and past comments from producers". Many secondary sources already speak about Stargirl as being part of the Arrowverse. Jmj713 (talk) 15:52, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

When the second season starts fully on the CW that may become the case. But at the moment, no, it is still not part of what we call the Arrowverse. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:15, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I agree that it shouldn't be considered here yet. Just an interesting comment I came across. -- /Alex/₂₁ 01:49, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Sure. And I acknowledge this is all confusing depending on how we're defining the scope of the article (the singular Earth-Prime series, or the larger multiverse). I always thought the article was based on the singular Earth-1/Prime universe, adding in series once they officially crossed over in very direct and close ways (hence Supergirl's inclusion when it was on Earth-38), and then we kept the "Multiverse" section for all the other series. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 13:12, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

The CWverse

According to WP:OFFICAL, when an official title is different from the most commonly recognizable one "It should always be provided early in an article's introduction, bolded at its first mention and, where appropriate, italicized" (for example the Mueller report article). The official name for the Arrowverse is the CWVerse, as per multiple official and independent sources dating back to over a year ago. I have attempted to fix the article's introduction and make it more inline with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, only for it to be undone multiple times because I "fail[ed] to cite a reliable source". This excuse is patently false, my edits included a citation for a ScreenRant article which states "the Arrowverse is no longer and that it's now called The CWverse" and that because the most commonly used name is still Arrowverse "this will likely lead to a situation where the universe is called one thing officially, but another entirely by the majority of people who watch it" (luckily we have WP:OFFICAL in case of this exact scenario). ScreenRant is also not an unreliable source, it is cited multiple times already on this page and more importantly the very citation I was using was not even removed by DonQuixote when he undid my changes. 174.91.120.107 (talk) 00:19, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

My bad. I missed VoiceBox64 adding a source because JoeLuke125 removed the cited text. However, a reminder, the onus of providing a source is on the editor adding new information and doing so at the very start is recommended. Cheers. DonQuixote (talk) 00:56, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

References

The CWverse name isn't even new, it's not the first time they used it with this latest promo. And here's one article using it all the way back in May 2016. So yes, the start should absolutely read: "The CWverse, commonly known as the Arrowverse, is an American media franchise and a shared universe..." Jmj713 (talk) 17:56, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

That was used by the Inverse, not any of the producers or the CW. I'm adding in info about it now that I think could clear some things up. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:23, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Ok so based on what I added in here, the TVLine source helps clear up that "The CWverse" is more the name of the superhero programming block on the network, not the new name for the universe. It might beg the question of then examining the scope of this article (which currently is covering all of the series on "Earth-Prime" and the others aka Stargirl mentioned in the Multivese section) to see if that needs to be adjusted at all (I don't think it does). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:50, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

I think you're splitting hairs with this programming block vs. franchise distinction. Yesterday's promo specifically refers to Earth-Prime and the Spectre's actions in Crisis when it says "From one hero, an entire universe was born... The CWVerse". You claim in the new subsection that Black Lightning "was not part of the universe" when last year's ComicCon trailer came out, but even if it wasn't public at the time, the people in charge clearly considered it to be in a similar situation to Supergirl on Earth-38 as they were already working on giving him a big role in Crisis and putting him in Earth-Prime going forward. Lastly, Stargirl isn't set on Earth-Prime, but many many people involved with the show have repeatedly referred to it as an Arrowverse show, so I don't think it's inclusion in the trailer is a deal breaker at all. To me, and to many independent sources (including Matt Webb Mitovich of TVLine who starts his article with "The CW seemingly is looking to rename the Arrowverse aka its slate of DC superhero shows", implying the franchise and the programming slate are synonymous), it's pretty clear that now the official name for the subject of this article is The CWVerse.174.91.120.107 (talk) 21:22, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

That's why I said, it may be beneficial to reexamine the scope of the article. The sources do make it pretty clear "The CWverse" is the programming block name, not the franchise name. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:48, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

No, the sources certainly don't make it clear "The CWverse" is the programming block name, not the franchise name. In fact every source you cited uses the two terms interchangably:

• ScreenRant says "A new trailer for The CW's universe of DC superhero shows calls it the CWverse, as opposed to the Arrowverse, the long-established name for the popular block of programming";
• TVLine says "The CW seemingly is looking to rename the Arrowverse aka its slate of DC superhero shows";
• And SuperHeroHype says "In 2012, one year after ending Smallville, The CW revisited Oliver Queen with Arrow, a show that gave way to an entire shared universe of small-screen superheroes that eventually became known as the Arrowverse [...] Now, The CW has just offered proof that they’re about to retire the Arrowverse title for good [...] The new spot blatantly refers to this programming block as The CWverse."

The only time any of the articles ever make a distinction between the two terms is when TVLine speculates that The CW "have arrived at a different POV — possibly [...] because Season 2 of DC’s Stargirl will be a CW exclusive, and that show is not even an indirect spinoff, yet is, as I put it, “Arrowverse-adjacent.”". 174.91.120.107 (talk) 22:17, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Also, regardless if it's the official name or not, WP:COMMONNAME still applies, and that would be Arrowverse. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:49, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, WP:COMMONNAME still applies and the article name should absolutely not change, but WP:OFFICIAL applies too and it states that when an official title is different from the most commonly recognizable one "It should always be provided early in an article's introduction, bolded at its first mention and, where appropriate, italicized" (for example the Mueller report article). 174.91.120.107 (talk) 22:17, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

In fact, WP:OFFICIAL also states that even when an official name is disputed it "should also be [...] similarly introduced in the article introduction" 174.91.120.107 (talk) 22:35, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Introducing a new marketing slogan doesnt make it an official name. Spanneraol (talk) 23:33, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Can you provide a reliable source that this is just a marketing slogan? Because I've got over a dozen that this is an official name change. 174.91.120.107 (talk) 00:47, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

All of your sources are just different media outlets speculating.. nothing official from any of the showrunners. Spanneraol (talk) 01:05, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

From WP:PSTS, "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources". Any comments or tweets by showrunners should only be used if we can't find any independent sources. 174.91.120.107 (talk) 01:35, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Just a reminder, you also have to remember due weight and context. DonQuixote (talk) 02:31, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Frankly, I feel like WP:DUE only helps my case. There are now articles on ScreenRant, SuperHeroHype, TVLine, Batman-News, We Got This Covered, CBR, Den of Geek and more, all reporting that The CWverse is the network's name for this series of shows. This is the majority viewpoint among reliable sources and I have not found an article disputing this, yet we are giving undue weight to a small line buried in the TVLine article speculating that this might be because of a distinction between the franchise and the programming block. 174.91.120.107 (talk) 03:05, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Most of those websites are fan sites without any credibility.. i mean calling We Got This Covered a "reliable source" is just laughable.. and all of them are just speculating.. they don't actually quote any official sources. Spanneraol (talk) 03:51, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

TVLine is a trade, it doesn't get more credible than them in terms of TV reporting and the official source is the promos The CW have released over the past year. I'll point you back to WP:PSTS, Wikipedia articles should primarily be based on independent sources and their author's "analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources." In this case, Matt Mitovich's synthesis of the primary evidence provided by The CW is that "The CW seemingly is looking to rename the Arrowverse aka its slate of DC superhero shows." 174.91.120.107 (talk) 04:18, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

All of the reliable sources on the promo are currently in the section I created, and I was also able to find articles from CBR and Den of Geek that mentioned the promo but had no commentary that the ones in article currently presented. As Spanneraol stated, we have yet to hear how the producers/showrunners call this. Given it's the network using this, it adds more precedent to the fact that it is a marketing/programming block name, which the sources discuss (in addition to speculating it's a new name for the universe). We cover both of these, but do not give the great weight you are trying to that it is the end all be all new universe name. - 15:04, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Sorry but what's the exact distinction between "programming block" and franchise? In other words, what distinction do you draw between Arrowverse and CWverse. I mean in real-world terms, not Earth-Prime. Jmj713 (talk) 15:21, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Perfect Strangers and its spin-off Family Matters constitute a franchise. TGIF is a programming block that contained both plus others. That could be the same with Arrowverse and CWverse. We probably need more sources to clarify this. DonQuixote (talk) 15:29, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

But TGIF were all completely separate shows. The 2019 CW promo clearly states "1 Universe" meaning all the shows shown are part of the same universe. Jmj713 (talk) 15:39, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, what DonQuixote said is correct. Or in terms of everything here, the "programming block" for 2020-2021 would be Swamp Thing, Flash, Supergirl, Legends, Black Lightning, Batwoman, Stargirl, and Superman & Lois, but the "franchise" is Flash, Supergirl, Legends, Black Lightning, Batwoman, and Superman & Lois. Or looking back to say 2019 when the first promo released, the "block" would have been Arrow, Flash, Supergirl, Legends, Batwoman, and Black Lightning, but the "franchise" was all but Black Lightning. They are "1 Universe" of DC shows, which per the recent DC FanDome shows they are fully embracing the multiverse, but that doesn't mean they are all part of the same franchise. I also agree that more sources/confirmation is needed to specifically know how we should put the term in the lead, if at all, and clarify that information in the "Name" section, which covers it both as the new name for the franchise, or simply the marking/programming block name. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:42, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't know, it sounds like you're reaching and inventing distinctions that aren't there. To me the franchise are the DC shows shown on the CW and promoted by the network together. Swamp Thing isn't promoted by the CW as the rest of the DC shows. The network is explicitly marketing the franchise we know as the Arrowverve as the CWverse and they include Stargirl. This is not up for debate. What seems to be up for debate is whether it's up to the network to decide what is and isn't part of their universe, but I would say it's only up to the network to decide that. Jmj713 (talk) 17:59, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree that calling all the DC superhero shows a "programming block" is a stretch at best. Block programming refers to a set of shows running back to back to hold on to the audience, as was the case with ABC's TGIF or NBC's Must See TV. I can't think of an instance where it applies to thematically similar shows stretching across different nights. It seems pretty clear that The CW is evolving the name of the property with the ending of Arrow and the post-Crisis shakeup, so it makes sense to include The CWverse in the led (even if the article title remains Arrowverse for now). Carter (talk) 18:11, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Here's an idea that might help resolve this dispute, how about we follow the example of Birds of Prey (2020 film) and add "Also known as The CWverse" in a footnote in the lead. Similar to the situation here, BoP was renamed post-debut by the studio without any acknowledgement or recognition by the Director or any other creatives. By using "Also known as" instead of "Officially called" we recognize the disputed nature of the change by some editors here, and by hiding it away in a footnote we can respect WP:OFFICIAL by introducing the disputably official name in the introduction, without giving it an undue placement. 70.53.115.58 (talk) 18:14, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree, but I would go with a more encyclopedic version I posted above: "The CWverse, commonly known as the Arrowverse...". There's nothing undue about using the official name. It's also a fairly commonly used unofficial term. You can see it here used from 2016 to 2019. Comparing with the other unofficial names, it seems that Flarrowverse was fairly popular when it was just Arrow and The Flash, and Berlantiverse was pretty popular around the same time. But more recently it's mainly been CWverse. Of course all this pales in comparison with Arrowverse, and that's what the article title should remain. But we should absolutely acknowledge the official name. Jmj713 (talk) 18:39, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Jmj713's suggested wording and placement. It makes no sense to hide CWverse in a footnote. Carter (talk) 19:17, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

I disagree. I still feel we need more context and sources to clarify what exactly this is in relation to the franchise. We have many secondary sources assuming it's the new name, but that just that, an assumption. I'm still of the stance that we keep the info as presented in the "Name" section and avoid including anything in the lead until it is more clear what this name is. We are not doing readers any disservice at this time by excluding it from the lead. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:43, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

The Name section isn't completely accurate, as the CW had a promo in 2019 with the name CWvwerse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtKwJQVmEuQ Jmj713 (talk) 00:31, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Needs to name CWverse, it's more accurate and used for the network.OscarFercho (talk) 01:00, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@Jmj713: That's in there. TVLine mentioned it and is covered in the section. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:04, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

I would agree with Favre1fan93 that we need to wait for more context before we change the name. Clearly, The CW are attempting to market the shows together under the banner of The CWVerse, but that does not automatically make that the franchise name for the shows specifically covered by the Arrowverse moniker. We need more input from those directly involved in the various shows production, which will more than likely come when promotion for new seasons begins. Until then, we should leave the article as it currently stands. AutumnKing (talk) 15:30, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

You're not helping, Oliver! Jmj713 (talk) 18:49, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

• FWIW, the DC Fandome this weekend (which was filmed back in July) had a panel called "Crisis on Infinite Earths: Behind the Scenes of the Arrowverse Crossover panel" so that's a pretty good indicator that name is still used for the franchise. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:13, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

CageToRattle See the above discussion. Moving again may be considered edit-warring and be reported. -- /Alex/₂₁ 23:57, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Taskforce

Would it be worth creating a WikiProject Television Taskforce for the Arrowverse articles? -- /Alex/₂₁ 03:49, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't think there's any harm to it. I'd be interested/involved. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 13:48, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

I've created the bare bones at Wikipedia:WikiProject Television/Arrowverse task force, now it needs expanding and formatting into a full task force. -- /Alex/₂₁ 03:23, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

List of Arrowverse episodes

Now, hopefully, for something a little less controversial. The current Lists of Arrowverse episodes is not very helpful, it's basically a disambiguation page. I was thinking it would be much better to redesign this to be an actual list of episodes for all Arrowverse shows, split by television seasons. So it would list all episodes in airdate order for all series in the franchise, split by the television season, similar to something like this. Since this is based strictly on airdates of an interconnected franchise, I don't believe this would fall into any kind of OR. Thoughts? Jmj713 (talk) 17:02, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Per the article's title being a "Lists of", it's essentially a "list of lists", so how it is formatted now as a quasi-disambiguation page is correct. We definitely should not alter it to what you suggested. - Favre1fan93 (talk)

Yes, we'd move it to List of Arrowverse episodes. Jmj713 (talk) 18:28, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Strongly disagree, that's just complete funcruft and trivial. Lists of Arrowverse episodes is helpful in that it was indeed designed to be a disambiguation page, same format as Lists of Star Trek episodes and other "Lists" articles. It may not be OR, but what encyclopedic value does this add? -- /Alex/₂₁ 01:32, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

John Wesley Shipp on Stargirl and "The CWverse"

John Wesley Shipp will be appearing as Jay Garrick on Stargirl and CW's press release states this will officially bring Stargirl [Brec Bassinger] into CW's post-Crisis CWverse alongside The Flash, Superman & Lois, Batwoman, Black Lightning, Supergirl, and DC's Legends of Tomorrow. Seeing this wording, and based on how the article is currently structured (to cover the series on Earth-1/Earth-Prime), is there merit to reformat the article to reflect the Arrowverse multiverse aka the "CWverse"? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:59, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

But also, EW's own article says: Crisis on Infinite Earths established that Bassinger's stars-and-stripes-clad teen hero resides on Earth-2 (with the Arrowverse shows all taking place on Earth-Prime now). (emphasis mine) - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:06, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Personally, I would wait on any major reformatting until we see how this plays out on the shows. Spanneraol (talk) 18:07, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, this is what we talked about earlier (see "Stargirl, again", above). Whether it's Arrowverse or CWverse, that's the term for the media franchise, NOT the Earth Prime "universe" that most of the CW DC shows part place in. Supergirl was an Arrowverse show, but technically took place on another Earth, not the "Arrowverse Earth". WIth this press release the CW has confirmed what was already apparent, that Stargirl is indeed part of the Arrowverse. They even spell it out: "With this move, The CW confirmed this will “officially bring Stargirl into CW’s post-Crisis CWverse alongside The Flash, Superman & Lois, Batwoman, Black Lightning, Supergirl, and DC’s Legends of Tomorrow.”" Can't be any clearer than that! Jmj713 (talk) 18:57, 18 February 2021 (UTC)