Talk:Helen of Troy

Helen v. Helen of Troy

I suggest the entry for this Helen be entitled Helen of Troy, which is how she is most commonly known. user:Deb

I agree. Ruakh 17:48, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Might be premature because we don't have enough other entries under "helen" to warrant a disambiguation page. Ellsworth 22:44, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

How is that a justification for not titling the article with the name by which nearly all readers will look for it and all writers will link to it? Regardless, there seem to be enough other Helens for disambiguation. --Tysto 05:24, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree, should be Helen of Troy. --JW1805 (Talk) 05:56, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Origin of the Helen myth

I have removed the following paragraph, which as far as I can tell is not mainstream (or even not-so-mainstream) scholarship. Moreover, the language "was believed to be" doesn't tell us who initially believed her to be this.... --Macrakis 03:48, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Helen was believed to be initially the chief mother-goddess worshipped through the area, until the arrival of the Dodecatheon. Then, she was replaced by Zeus, and her role was demoted and 'survived' through mythology only to the most beautiful woman of the world.

Why was the painting removed? Fuelbottle | Talk

Dates

So the Trojan War started in 1194BC? Glad we cleared up centuries of scholarly debate there. Would be quite nice if someone could cite a source for this astonishing discovery.

If not, shall we just stick to saying that many scholars consider it to have taken place sometime between 1300 BC and 1200 BC, as the Trojan War article does? The timeline could be given in a "0: birth of Helen; +12 Helen abducted..." format.

sjcollier 11:16, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Apologies for the tone of that, I was having a bad day. My point still stands, though: this timeline is faintly absurd.

sjcollier 20:39, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

The source is the timeline of Eratosthenes. As it already says in the Trojan War article. This is not a newfound discovery but the traditional date. User:Dimadick

Actually, 1194BC is only one of the traditional dates. But considering that we're talking about a mythological war which may or may not correspond to a historical war, why should this article bother to give the date at all? Furthermore, since this article is about a character in mythology, rather than a historical individual, why should we give a timeline? --Akhilleus (talk) 03:11, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

The timeline is based on Mythical chronology of Greece, which I have put up on AfD. If, as seems likely, the chronology article is deleted, I will remove the timeline from the article. If it contains useful info that isn't elsewhere in the article, I'll put it in the appropriate spot, of course.

If anyone thinks the timeline should stay, this would be a good time to say so... --Akhilleus (talk) 16:23, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

The timeline takes the year of the fall of Troy by Eratosthenes and the passage of years between events given by other ancient writers. Mythic does not mean timeless or undated. User:Dimadick

As I already noted, 1184BC is only one of the "traditional" dates of the fall of Troy. Why choose Eratosthenes? Why choose a date at all? As I already noted, the war is mythological, and its historicity is a matter of debate. Helen, too, is a mythical figure, and few classicists would say there was a real Helen. Giving her a timeline and precise dates implies that we can place her in actual history, which is misleading.

Furthermore, I see no citations for any of the dates, and it's clear that the timeline is synthesized from several different sources, which means it's original research. I'm taking it out--again. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:50, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Where do you find original research? Her age at abduction as twelve is given. The years preparing the war and the duration of the war is given. The years of wondering the sea with Menelaus is also given as eight which fits nicely with Aegysthus only reigning seven. Again I don't see why "mythological" makes it fiction without meaning. And Eratosthenes gives the date most widely used User:Dimadick

I don't see any citations in that section. I see no reason given to use Eratosthenes' date for the Trojan War. I see no source given for the length of the journey back from Troy.

More importantly, I see no source given that says the ancient Greeks thought that Telemachus visited Sparta in 1174 BC. I see no source given that says modern scholars think Telemachus visited Sparta in 1174 BC. It's a calculation that the editor who put together the timeline performed, and it's an original synthesis of several sources. To me, that's original research. More importantly, it's absurd--if you went to a classical scholar and said "hey, when did Telemachus visit Sparta? 1174 BC or 1150 BC?" you'd be told that the question is absurd--because Telemachus' visit to Sparta is not a historical event. Please stop putting the timeline back in. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems clear-cut to me.

1. Eratosthenes' dates are not widely used. They are very rarely used, and I doubt if any scholars take them seriously.
2. In any case, unless Eratosthenes gives those dates against the name of Helen, to put the dates in this article is original research. You'd have to publish them first. Meanwhile, I think they should be taken out.

Andrew Dalby 20:58, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

They are the dates used by the publications of the Academy of Athens. What do you mean not taken seriously? User:Dimadick

Ancient Greek pronuciation

What was Helen in Ancient Greek? 'Elen? 'Elene? 'Elena?

It was probably something like Helenee in Attic, and diferently in othere dialectsIkokki 16:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Helen's suitors

I have added a list of suitors, just like there is one at Penelope. I hope there is no objectionIkokki 16:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Etymology

Is anyone sure about the (previous) etymology? Of her name supposedly being derived from the root *sel-. As you can see, the American Heritage Dictionary clearly says otherwise. Lemegeton 17:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The American Heritage Dictionary isn't a great source for Greek etymology. However, it is superior to no source at all, which is what the *sel- etymology has right now. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

the "timeline" section

I find the "timeline" section a bit odd. Surely we don't want to give the impression that we can give calendar dates for the life of a mythological figure. In addition, the article given as a reference for the dates, Mythical chronology of Greece, looks like a huge pile of original research to me. I'd like to take the "timeline" section out. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:30, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the timeline section. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Sparing the life of Helen

In the version I learned of this myth, Menelaus spares the life of Helen at the request of Odysseus, to whom he owed a debt. I'll dig out my texts and see if I can verify it. 68.39.127.114 02:39, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

There been lots of vandalism recently... Ustimika 19:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)