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::{{re|Tenryuu}} I find it a little condescending you think I'm trying to write a "great wrong". Obsessive arguing over minor details is probably what keeps Wikipedia accurate and up-to-date. I am not really trying to make a claim as to the gender identity of a fictional character in a series that doesn't really discuss gender identity. It's more that most of the sources the article cites go out of their way to simply refer to Kino as Kino, and so to refer to Kino as "she" is itself original research and inconsistent with many of our sources. I've seen Kino referred to online as "she", "they", or simply "Kino". I would probably default to "Kino" or "they" before "she" unless we have a reliable source, as Wikipedia does with Vi Hart, who never identified as explicitly non-binary or claimed to use they/them. Biological sex isn't the same as pronouns, and if Kino is intentionally referred to in ambiguous ways, or in the absence of other evidence, I would default to not assuming a gender, and to referring to Kino in the same way most of our sources do: mainly by name. To do otherwise would be original research. To label Kino as nonbinary in the absence of conclusive evidence would be wrong. That's not what I'm trying to do. Rather than assuming Kino is either nonbinary or uses she/her is presumptuous either way. We should just not assume. I don't feel qualified to make the necessary edits but there's a dissonance between the way this article refers to Kino and the way I see other sources refer to Kino, including many this article cites. Canonical sex isn't the same as canonical pronouns. When the series seems to go out of it's way to refer to Kino in ambiguous terms, and when Kino canonically took the name of a male Kino met, and when the series doesn't shy away from gendering other characters in the series, it seems very intentional to me the choice not to unambiguously gender Kino. Not every androgynous person is nonbinary. But neither does every female use she/her. To assume someone uses she/her without the same standard of evidence as you apply to those trying to refer to Kino using they/them is a double-standard. The most obvious compromise is not to use pronouns. The discussion above makes it clear to me that we haven't determined Kino's English-language pronouns, and so to assume them would be original research. I believe it is standard to use they/them when a person's pronouns are unknown, but perhaps avoiding pronouns altogether would be best. I agree that to argue Kino is nonbinary would be an overstatement of the evidence. But that's irrelevant. Biological sex is clear, gender identity is largely irrelevant, and pronouns are unknown. [[User:Talib1101|Talib1101]] ([[User talk:Talib1101|talk]]) 22:36, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
::{{re|Tenryuu}} I find it a little condescending you think I'm trying to write a "great wrong". Obsessive arguing over minor details is probably what keeps Wikipedia accurate and up-to-date. I am not really trying to make a claim as to the gender identity of a fictional character in a series that doesn't really discuss gender identity. It's more that most of the sources the article cites go out of their way to simply refer to Kino as Kino, and so to refer to Kino as "she" is itself original research and inconsistent with many of our sources. I've seen Kino referred to online as "she", "they", or simply "Kino". I would probably default to "Kino" or "they" before "she" unless we have a reliable source, as Wikipedia does with Vi Hart, who never identified as explicitly non-binary or claimed to use they/them. Biological sex isn't the same as pronouns, and if Kino is intentionally referred to in ambiguous ways, or in the absence of other evidence, I would default to not assuming a gender, and to referring to Kino in the same way most of our sources do: mainly by name. To do otherwise would be original research. To label Kino as nonbinary in the absence of conclusive evidence would be wrong. That's not what I'm trying to do. Rather than assuming Kino is either nonbinary or uses she/her is presumptuous either way. We should just not assume. I don't feel qualified to make the necessary edits but there's a dissonance between the way this article refers to Kino and the way I see other sources refer to Kino, including many this article cites. Canonical sex isn't the same as canonical pronouns. When the series seems to go out of it's way to refer to Kino in ambiguous terms, and when Kino canonically took the name of a male Kino met, and when the series doesn't shy away from gendering other characters in the series, it seems very intentional to me the choice not to unambiguously gender Kino. Not every androgynous person is nonbinary. But neither does every female use she/her. To assume someone uses she/her without the same standard of evidence as you apply to those trying to refer to Kino using they/them is a double-standard. The most obvious compromise is not to use pronouns. The discussion above makes it clear to me that we haven't determined Kino's English-language pronouns, and so to assume them would be original research. I believe it is standard to use they/them when a person's pronouns are unknown, but perhaps avoiding pronouns altogether would be best. I agree that to argue Kino is nonbinary would be an overstatement of the evidence. But that's irrelevant. Biological sex is clear, gender identity is largely irrelevant, and pronouns are unknown. [[User:Talib1101|Talib1101]] ([[User talk:Talib1101|talk]]) 22:36, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
:::What I believe Tenryuu was getting at (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. In other words, the absence of reliable sources attesting to Kino's gender identity is not proof that Kino has a gender identity outside of her biological sex i.e. a lack of gender identity. Just because Kino doesn't correct anyone who mistakes her as male doesn't mean anything one way or the other. And when you think about it, a girl traveling alone across the world would generally have less run-ins with bad situations if most people assume she's male i.e. Kino could be doing it as a form of protection instead of some kind of expression of her gender identity. Besides, using they/them for a character where there is no evidence of a non-binary identity would be inaccurate. Just because some sources may refer to her in that way doesn't mean Wikipedia acquiesces to them because Kino, being a fictional character, is not bound by the [[WP:BLP]] guidelines where that would apply to someone real, like [[Vi Hart]] who you brought up.--<span style="background:white;color:">[[User:Juhachi|<b style="color: black;">十</b>]][[User talk:Juhachi|<b style="color: red;">八</b>]]</span> 04:58, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
:::What I believe Tenryuu was getting at (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. In other words, the absence of reliable sources attesting to Kino's gender identity (or lack thereof) is not proof that Kino has a gender identity outside of her biological sex i.e. a lack of gender identity. Just because Kino doesn't correct anyone who mistakes her as male doesn't mean anything one way or the other. And when you think about it, a girl traveling alone across the world would generally have less run-ins with bad situations if most people assume she's male i.e. Kino could be doing it as a form of protection instead of some kind of expression of her gender identity. Besides, using they/them for a character where there is no evidence of a non-binary identity would be inaccurate. Just because some sources may refer to her in that way doesn't mean Wikipedia acquiesces to them because Kino, being a fictional character, is not bound by the [[WP:BLP]] guidelines where that would apply to someone real, like [[Vi Hart]] who you brought up.--<span style="background:white;color:">[[User:Juhachi|<b style="color: black;">十</b>]][[User talk:Juhachi|<b style="color: red;">八</b>]]</span> 04:58, 18 April 2021 (UTC)


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3/5 of the external links were broken. I removed them. LaesaMajestas (talk) 14:19, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maeda Ai

There seem to be contradictions on Wikipedia over who voices Kino. On two pages (Ai Maeda (actress) and Ai Maeda (voice actress)) seperate people with the same name are credited for voicing Kino. Which one is it? Which page is wrong? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.17.134.9 (talk) 12:19, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ai Maeda (actress) voices Kino.--十八 13:12, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have corrected the Voice Actresses page accordingly.13:32, 5 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.17.134.9 (talk)

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Kino's gender

2017

I'm responsible for edit "Primary sources indicate that Kino doesn't identify as female", which was later undone by "Primary sources acknowledge that Kino is a girl. And at this point it is no longer a spoiler. Please check the history page of this wiki before changing stuff to avoid an edit war." Looking at the history, I see some previous edits in which "she" pronouns for Kino were removed on the grounds that Kino's biological sex is a spoiler, and later restored in accordance with Wikipedia's policy on spoilers. I'm not disputing that Kino is biologically female, and I included that information in my edit, but as I explained in my edit with evidence from several primary sources, Kino's gender identity appears to be non-binary, and I believe they should be referred to with "they" pronouns accordingly. Unless anyone can find a primary source showing that Kino's gender identity (as opposed to biological sex) is female, I'd like to reinstate my edit. Eclipsephiasco (talk) 20:28, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For my part, things like "appears to be non-binary" indicates that there is no concrete evidence for that, and you're just speculating based on circumstantial evidence that you're interpreting.--十八 21:50, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree there's no source that explicitly identifies Kino as non-binary, but as I point out in the explanation I added to the article, the case is pretty strong. The original light novels make a deliberate effort not to use any pronouns for Kino, they use the soft-masculine pronoun "boku" for themself, and there are scenes in the novels and the anime where they object to being addressed with the feminine title "ojou-chan". While there's no conclusive proof in either direction, this evidence is far from circumstantial in my opinion. I hope you'll agree that it's at least unclear whether Kino identifies as female or non-binary, and I think that ambiguity is worth discussing in the article. And as long as we're acknowledging that it's unclear, I think it's most appropriate to use "they" pronouns, not to indicate that Kino's gender is definitely non-binary but to acknowledge that we're not sure what it is. Eclipsephiasco (talk) 03:30, 28 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, all of those things are circumstantial. Firstly, the Japanese language doesn't normally use gendered pronouns except in certain, specific cases, so that's already a non-starter. Second, "boku" can and has been used by a wide-range of female characters in anime/manga/novels/video games, so that really doesn't prove one way or the other. Thirdly, "ojou-chan" can be seen in some cases as a pejorative diminutive expression, somewhat akin to calling someone "little girl" or "girly", and Kino could just as easily be objecting to its pejorative connotation instead of its gendered denotation. So if we just leave out all the original research, defaulting to the biological sex should probably be what should happen because the fact is, it's up to interpretation whether "they" would be appropriate or not for this character, and there really is no concrete evidence that I've seen to support that interpretation.--十八 05:21, 28 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
One would normally expect the third person narration in the light novels to use the third-person female pronoun "kanojo" frequently when describing Kino, rather than always referring to Kino by name, if they weren't deliberately avoiding "kanojo". I agree that your interpretations of my other points are valid, and that none of my evidence in support of the "non-binary" hypothesis is conclusive; but the only evidence in support of the "female" hypothesis is the implicit assumption, unsupported by any of the source media, that Kino is cisgendered. I think there's enough evidence here that the "non-binary" interpretation is no less plausible than the "female" interpretation, and all the primary sources are silent on the actual answer to this question. The very fact that it's "up to interpretation" and never conclusively resolved in the source text means that this question is worth discussing in the article. Eclipsephiasco (talk) 08:07, 28 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, a quirk of Japanese is that the name of a person is used to refer to them almost always instead of gendered pronouns, "him" (kare) and "her" (kanojo), as using the name is considered more polite, so the author wasn't trying to avoid "kanojo" because Japanese just doesn't work like that. If Kino's gender is ambiguous, that's worth pointing out, but anything beyond that I feel would be original research based on an interpretation of circumstantial evidence.--十八 10:45, 28 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In personal conversations about existing people those pronouns are avoided, but omniscient-third-person narrators of fictional works aren't "polite" to their characters in the same way, and normally use such pronouns frequently. I also see almost no "original research" in my edit; aside from "However, in the present Kino does not seem to identify as female or male, and objects to being addressed as a girl or as a boy", which I agree is debatable, all I'm doing is stating verifiable facts directly from my cited sources. Meanwhile I haven't seen any verifiable sources to support the assertion that Kino's gender is female, so I'm not sure why that should be the default assumption. Here's my proposal for how the relevant section of the article should read:

Kino is the main protagonist in the series and travels to different countries with their talking motorcycle Hermes, discovering the various countries' cultures and people. Kino is skilled in combat, carrying both guns and knives, and is accustomed to life as a traveler. To those they meet, they are invariably polite and answer questions directly. In the novels and anime, Kino's gender presentation is ambiguous: they dress in baggy motorcycle gear and use the first-person pronoun "boku", a "soft-masculine" pronoun also sometimes used by girls.[1] In the novels, the third-person narration only refers to Kino by name and never with gendered pronouns, and Kino is sometimes addressed as a girl and sometimes as a boy by different people they meet.[2] In the story Country of Adults -Natural Rights- (大人の国 -Natural Rights-), Kino recalls living as a girl in the Country of Adults before meeting Hermes and borrowing the name "Kino" from another traveler.[2]: 166–198  However, after their departure from the Country of Adults, Kino appears to reject a static gender and become "simply Kino."[3]

As far as I can see, there's no original analysis or synthesis there (note the inclusion of a new scholarly source commenting on Kino's rejection of gender). Eclipsephiasco (talk) 15:26, 28 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"In personal conversations about existing people those pronouns are avoided, but omniscient-third-person narrators of fictional works aren't "polite" to their characters in the same way, and normally use such pronouns frequently." Yeah, in English, but like I said, Japanese just doesn't work like that. Beyond politeness, it's also about context. Japanese is heavily based on context, and to specify who is being referred to, names are almost always used in place of gendered pronouns; that's just how the language is constructed, so like I said, it's a non-starter because of the nature of the Japanese language. And the reason why your interpretation is based largely on original research is because of synthesis. You're using how Kino dresses and Kino's use of "boku" to advance an interpretation not expressly given in the series, i.e. that Kino does not identify as either male or female. The fact that Kino is addressed as both a girl and a boy by different people also means nothing, because that's how other characters interpret Kino, and has nothing to do with Kino personally. Furthermore, you even point out that Kino lived as a girl, but you're interpreting becoming "simply Kino" as appearing to "reject a static gender", which is an interpretation to advance an idea not specifically in the series, which is the whole definition of synthesis. If you have to use words like "appear" or "seem to", that's a dead give away that you're interpreting something and it's original research.--十八 20:31, 28 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Having read the previous arguments, I am not convinced that Kino should be referred to in the plural. However the ambiguity of how she appears to people remains. I agree that the statement from Martin Wisse "Generally, Kino talks using gender neutral pronouns in Japanese, rather than using those stereotypically (sic) reserved for men or women. " is probably appropriate (given that I do not speak Japanese and must accept that interpretation) and could be included in an expanded Character entry to better explain the situation and place her characteristics within the overall context of her character. eg:
"Kino is the main protagonist in the series and travels to different countries with her talking motorcycle Hermes, discovering their cultures and people. She is skilled in combat, using both guns and knives, and is accustomed to life as a traveler. To those she meets, she is invariably polite and answers questions directly and tries not to interfere or become involved in the affairs of the country, although sometimes she does. In the anime, Kino's gender is intentionally ambiguous and in her travelling clothes she looks like a young man. To maintain this ambiguity, Kino generally talks using gender neutral pronouns in Japanese, rather than using those stereotypically reserved for men or women. In the fourth episode it is confirmed that she is female. This is when she first met the male traveler "Kino" who rebuilt the motorcycle Hermes and whose name she later adopted."
Ozflashman (talk) 21:24, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"Kino generally talks using gender neutral pronouns in Japanese, rather than using those stereotypically reserved for men or women." That is not true at all. Kino uses "boku", which is mainly used by males. And besides, as I stated above, "boku" can and has been used by a wide-range of female characters in anime/manga/novels/video games, so her use of it doesn't specifically point to a gender identity, but it is certainly not "neutral" as that one editor claimed.--十八 03:51, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Following that comment, the amended text could read:
"Kino is the main protagonist in the series and travels to different countries with her talking motorcycle Hermes, discovering their cultures and people. She is skilled in combat, using both guns and knives, and is accustomed to life as a traveler. To those she meets, she is invariably polite and tries not to interfere or become involved in the affairs of the country, although sometimes she does. In the anime, Kino's gender is intentionally ambiguous and in her travelling clothes she looks like a young man. She was born in The Country of Adults and escaped after the original Kino, the male traveler who befriended her, was killed saving her life. Later she adopted his name."
Please note that some of the other entries also need some clarification, eg. Hermes' origin, the death of the original Kino, etc, but should be done after the issue of Kino's entry is resolved. Ozflashman (talk) 05:30, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

2020

ok but hear me out here..... just because they're assigned female at birth doesn't mean they identify with being female. labelling them as female when they refuse to label themself is pretty transphobic if you ask me, plus for the most part their gender identity is up to interpretation. if you interpret them as female because they were born female, thats good on you! but officially, in the source, they actively defy gender labels. additionally, they're seen to use both labels referring to themself, even in english translations. they're recognized as nonbinary by a lottt of people/sources and i really dont think its fair to take that away from people :] and a little bit of neutral pronouns aint hurting anyone. your transphobia is showing </3 12:06, 21 December 2020 (PST) 12:

@Thestance: Kindly do not make aspersions that other editors are transphobic without proof, as that is a quick way to get yourself blocked on here. This is the issue: plus for the most part their gender identity is up to interpretation. On Wikipedia we do not engage in interpretation as that is original research.
they're recognized as nonbinary by a lottt of people/sources. Citations needed. Wikipedia cares about what reliable, independent sources say, not what people prefer it to say. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) (🎁 Wishlist! 🎁) 14:54, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Tenryuu: citations, right. i'll get on that for you right away. first of all, on the official website for the manga, when translated, it refers to kino as a boy. while this should be taken with a grain of salt, as it is only the google translation, it does imply that they use male nouns instead of female ones/
"Why is Kino continuing his journey?"
"Sometimes I'm a stupid and dwarf guy I can't help. Isn't he a very dirty person? I don't know why, but when I feel that way But at that time, everything else, such as the world and the way of life of other human beings, feels like beautiful and wonderful things. It seems very dear ... .... I feel like I'm traveling for that purpose because I want to know more about them. "
-The story of the journey of the two-wheeled vehicle Hermes, who speaks with human Keno.[4]

`Kino wa dōshite tabi o tsudzukete iru no?' `Boku wa ne, tamani jibun ga dō shiyō mo nai, orokade waishōna yakkode wanai ka? Monosugoku kitanai ningende 
wanai ka? Nazeda ka yoku wakaranaikedo, sō kanjiru toki ga aru nda.…… Demo son'na toki wa kanarazu, soreigai no mono, tatoeba sekai toka, hoka no ningen 
no ikikata toka ga, subete utsukushiku, sutekina mono no yō ni kanjiru nda. Totemo, itoshiku omoeru nda yo……. Boku wa, sorera o motto motto shiritakute, 
sonotame ni tabi o shite iru yōna ki ga suru' ― ningen Kino to kotoba o hanasu nirinsha Erumesu no tabi no hanashi [5]

in the 2017 site, they are once again referred to as male. 

Kino arrives in a country that he has always wanted to visit. I was expecting it to be a wonderful country, but everything had changed due to the 
replacement of the king. It is said that people do not work, and even rogues who do not win prizes and travelers who do not know the circumstances are 
made to fight in the Coliseum and make it a spectacle. Kino decides to participate in the battle on his own initiative. [6]

Mae kara otozuretai to omotte ita kuni ni tōchaku shita Kino. Subarashī kuni to kiite kitai shite ita nodaga,-ō no daigawari ni yotte nanimokamo kawatte 
shimatte ita. Hitobito wa hatarakazu, shōhin meate no narazumono ya, jijō o shiranu tabibito made mo koroshiamu de tatakawa se, misemono ni shite iru to 
iu. Kino wa mizukara no ishi de sono tatakai ni sanka suru koto ni [7]

also from the 2017 website, describing them using male nouns, 

As Kino was resting in a hammock, the ground suddenly shook. The shaking gradually increases, and a huge gray wall appears. Kino and Hermes are astonished 
by the appearance of a moving country. When Kino waved for a trial, the moving country asked if he would enter Kino. Kino and his friends are welcomed and 
spend a few days in a moving country that is constantly moving. [8]

Kino ga hanmokku de hitoyasumi shite iru to, totsuzen jimen ga yureta. Yure wa shidaini ōkiku nari, kyodaina haiiro no jōheki ga arawareru. Ugoku kuni no 
sugata ni kyōgaku suru kinotoerumesu. Kino ga tameshi ni te o futte miru to, ugoku kuni wa Kino ni nyūkoku suru ka to tazunete kita. Ōjita Kino-tachi wa 
kangei sa re, tsuneni idō shi tsudzukeru ugoku kuni de sūjitsu o sugosuga [9]

this goes on for nearly every episode until the 11th, where they speak about kino before they begin their journey. here they use female nouns for them, so its not like they cant be described using those nouns. 

A girl who spends the "last week" before becoming an adult meets a traveler, Kino. Kino travels to the world outside the walls that the girl doesn't know, 
and seems to live freely. A girl who has been taught to grow up at the age of twelve and inherit her parents' profession. With a little doubt, she 
confesses it to her parents ... [10]

Otona ni naru mae no “saigo no isshūkan” o sugosu shōjo wa, tabibito no Kino to deau. Kino wa, shōjo ga shiranai jōheki no soto no sekai o tabi shi, jiyū 
kimama ni ikite irurashī. Jū ni-sai ni nattara otona ni nari, ryōshin no shokugyō o tsugu mono to oshie rarete kita shōjo. Hon'nosukoshidake gimon o 
kanjita kanojo wa ryōshin ni sore o uchiakeruga…….[11]

then, in the next episode description, its back to using masculine nouns for them. so the nouns used prior weren't a mistake or a thing used to hide their true gender, thats just the nouns that they use to identify themself. 

Kino and Hermes encountered a flock of sheep as they ran leisurely through the rolling meadows that stretched to the horizon. Kino tries to pass each 
other at a distance so as not to irritate, but the flock of sheep suddenly starts running and attacks. Kino, who is cornered, tries to fight, but Hermes 
recommends that he leave himself and escape only Kino. [12]

Kinotoerumesu ga, chiheisen made tsudzuku nadarakana sōgen o nonbiri hashitte iru to, hitsujinomure to sōgū shita. Kino wa shigeki shinai yō ni kyori o 
totte surechigaou to suru mono no, hitsujinomure wa totsujo hashiridashi, osoi gakaru. Oitsumerareta Kino wa tatakaou to suruga, Erumesu wa jibun o oite 
Kino dake nigeru yō susumeru. [13]

in the final source sited at the bottom of the wiki page, (i've been siting your own sources, if you couldn't tell,) they're referred to neutrally. while there isnt much to reference them, they are clearly referred to by neutral pronouns here. 

Plot Summary: The story follows the travels of Kino, a young adventurer who rides a talking motorcycle named Hermes. They explore the people and cultures 
of different places throughout their adventures, spending only three days at each location.[14]

tl;dr, if you're going to call them anything, you should stick with the masculine nouns used in the source websites. thats how they're described in their original source, and i dont think that we have the right to change that. while yes, they are not referred to neutrally, they still arent referred to as female. on a lighter note, apologies if i make any formatting mistakes. i'm relatively new to the wikipedia boards. -Thestance (talk) (UTC)Thestance 8:37, 21 December 2020 (PST)


@Tenryuu: if you'd like, i can scour the source itself for instances of them actively rejecting gender labels, though i think you should probably check up on the sources you have linked at the bottom. i mean, if you cant even take the credited sites seriously enough to get kinos pronouns right, i think thats a serious issue.

additionally, i would site the light novels themselves, but the language barrier prevents me from doing so. i may try to read through them to site them at a later date though. - Thestance (talk) 17:05, 21 December 2020 (UTC)Thestance[reply]

@Thestance: A few comments from myself, a previously involved editor:
  • In the 2017 discussion (see above on this talk page), User:Juhachi correctly pointed out that "boku" is a "soft-masculine" pronoun that cannot be directly translated to the English "he". For example, self-reference with "boku" is extremely common for tomboy-type female characters in anime and manga (not to say that Kino is a tomboy).
  • The machine translation (?) that you used seems to have inserted "he" as a translation for "boku" (missing this nuance), as well as inserted it into sentences where no pronouns appear at all (like where just Kino's name appears).
  • ANN's encyclopedia is an external link we use on articles, but the entries are not a reliable source because they are user-generated (see WP:A&M/ORS for more info). — Goszei (talk) 21:47, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Thestance: Japanese doesn't normally use gendered pronouns as a nature of the language, so any translations from the Japanese episodes summaries you posted, or the Japanese text of the novels, are subject to interpretation on that basis alone. As Goszei pointed out, I had mentioned earlier in the discussion a few years ago that boku is not always used by males, since plenty of female characters use that first person pronoun, even feminine characters, to say nothing of tomboyish characters. Because of the nature of Japanese, and the fact that the source material doesn't expressly touch on this subject, there's no direct evidence that Kino does not identify as female. Any type of evidence from the source material will simply be reading "between the lines" of what could or could not be implied, but that is reaching into the realm of original research, and is not appropriate for Wikipedia. We should not be in the business of interpreting the mental state of a fictional character based on "evidence" which can easily be interpreted either way. The problem really isn't the evidence, what little may or may not be found, but how it's interpreted by the audience.--十八 22:49, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "The many ways to say "I"". Nihonshock. Retrieved 25 July 2017.
  2. ^ a b Sigsawa, Keiichi (2000). Kino's Journey - the Beautiful World (キノの旅　the Beautiful World). Tokyo: Media Works. ISBN 9784840215855.
  3. ^ Malone, Sheila (December 2014). "Androgynous Punk as Postfeminist Signifying Strategy of Transgression Within Subcultures: Punk Aesthetic as Gender De[con]struction in the Trilogy Film Series "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" and the Anime Series "Kino's Journey"" (PDF). Contention: The Multidisciplinary Journal of Social Protest. 2 (1): 57–68. ISSN 2330-1392. Retrieved 28 September 2017.
  4. ^ https://kinonotabi.com/
  5. ^ https://kinonotabi.com/
  6. ^ https://www.kinonotabi-anime.com/story/ep02/
  7. ^ https://www.kinonotabi-anime.com/story/ep02/
  8. ^ https://www.kinonotabi-anime.com/story/ep03/
  9. ^ https://www.kinonotabi-anime.com/story/ep03/
  10. ^ https://www.kinonotabi-anime.com/story/ep11/
  11. ^ https://www.kinonotabi-anime.com/story/ep11/
  12. ^ https://www.kinonotabi-anime.com/story/ep12/
  13. ^ https://www.kinonotabi-anime.com/story/ep12/
  14. ^ https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=1965

2021

Cisgender by default is about as bad as straight by default. Kino's gender is intentionally ambiguous, and their 'female' sex does not equal evidence of a gender. We should replicate their intentionally ambiguous gender in the article. Talib1101 (talk) 04:02, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a place to right great wrongs. If you have a reliable source that can attest that Kino identifies as gender ambiguous, we can discuss further. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 06:02, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Tenryuu: I find it a little condescending you think I'm trying to write a "great wrong". Obsessive arguing over minor details is probably what keeps Wikipedia accurate and up-to-date. I am not really trying to make a claim as to the gender identity of a fictional character in a series that doesn't really discuss gender identity. It's more that most of the sources the article cites go out of their way to simply refer to Kino as Kino, and so to refer to Kino as "she" is itself original research and inconsistent with many of our sources. I've seen Kino referred to online as "she", "they", or simply "Kino". I would probably default to "Kino" or "they" before "she" unless we have a reliable source, as Wikipedia does with Vi Hart, who never identified as explicitly non-binary or claimed to use they/them. Biological sex isn't the same as pronouns, and if Kino is intentionally referred to in ambiguous ways, or in the absence of other evidence, I would default to not assuming a gender, and to referring to Kino in the same way most of our sources do: mainly by name. To do otherwise would be original research. To label Kino as nonbinary in the absence of conclusive evidence would be wrong. That's not what I'm trying to do. Rather than assuming Kino is either nonbinary or uses she/her is presumptuous either way. We should just not assume. I don't feel qualified to make the necessary edits but there's a dissonance between the way this article refers to Kino and the way I see other sources refer to Kino, including many this article cites. Canonical sex isn't the same as canonical pronouns. When the series seems to go out of it's way to refer to Kino in ambiguous terms, and when Kino canonically took the name of a male Kino met, and when the series doesn't shy away from gendering other characters in the series, it seems very intentional to me the choice not to unambiguously gender Kino. Not every androgynous person is nonbinary. But neither does every female use she/her. To assume someone uses she/her without the same standard of evidence as you apply to those trying to refer to Kino using they/them is a double-standard. The most obvious compromise is not to use pronouns. The discussion above makes it clear to me that we haven't determined Kino's English-language pronouns, and so to assume them would be original research. I believe it is standard to use they/them when a person's pronouns are unknown, but perhaps avoiding pronouns altogether would be best. I agree that to argue Kino is nonbinary would be an overstatement of the evidence. But that's irrelevant. Biological sex is clear, gender identity is largely irrelevant, and pronouns are unknown. Talib1101 (talk) 22:36, 17 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What I believe Tenryuu was getting at (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. In other words, the absence of reliable sources attesting to Kino's gender identity (or lack thereof) is not proof that Kino has a gender identity outside of her biological sex i.e. a lack of gender identity. Just because Kino doesn't correct anyone who mistakes her as male doesn't mean anything one way or the other. And when you think about it, a girl traveling alone across the world would generally have less run-ins with bad situations if most people assume she's male i.e. Kino could be doing it as a form of protection instead of some kind of expression of her gender identity. Besides, using they/them for a character where there is no evidence of a non-binary identity would be inaccurate. Just because some sources may refer to her in that way doesn't mean Wikipedia acquiesces to them because Kino, being a fictional character, is not bound by the WP:BLP guidelines where that would apply to someone real, like Vi Hart who you brought up.--十八 04:58, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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