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Lucasdmca (talk | contribs)
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:: I am voting for the "communist". "... go ahead reagardless" of what? [[User:Burrobert|Burrobert]] ([[User talk:Burrobert|talk]]) 05:49, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
:: I am voting for the "communist". "... go ahead reagardless" of what? [[User:Burrobert|Burrobert]] ([[User talk:Burrobert|talk]]) 05:49, 21 April 2021 (UTC)


:: I will put the current version of each sentence on top and the wording before the edit of the anonymous IP below
:: I will put the current version(that IP says supports) of each sentence on top and the wording before the edit(that I support) of the anonymous IP below


:: the second vice president of the Senate, seized power. She announced she would be assuming the presidency
:: the second vice president of the Senate, seized power. She announced she would be assuming the presidency

Revision as of 07:04, 21 April 2021

coup d'etat once more

OR

I actually support the title of a coup d etat. On a cold blooded analysis I must admit though, that this doesn't represent NPOV. On the other hand not mentioning coup d'état in the title violates exactly in the same way NPOV (there are quite enough arguments about this already, I don't want to repeat them here, the following tablet analyses the situation anyway and tries to compress these arguments). Is there a title that can achieve consensus and reflect both these edges? my answer is:YES:

2019 Coup d etat (?) in Bolivia.

In this way we mention the fact that the situation has (actually almost all of) the characteristics of a coup d'état and (through the question mark) point out that there are also characteristics, that don't represent a coup d'état (I mean: die Cocaleros are now actually deciding, who their new leader will be, without being threatened...). The change in the title is thereafter the only that respects at last the NPOV fundamental principle of Wikipedia (which is actually definitely NOT being respected with the "political crisis" title) and respects also consensus.

A comment about the Tablet: the references are actually a combination of comments and references. I couldn't find a way to separate them, without making it extreme difficult to read the tablet. The tablet should be simple, in order to make the arguments easy to see.

Comments and
references		 ↓Part of the Definition of a Coup d'état→ Yes
Fact		 Yes
Claim		 No
Fact		 No
Claim		 Not clear
[1] There were ways to solve the problem with legal meanings which were not used ✔
[2] The military participated in the act (✔) (✔) ✔
[3] The government members were intimitated ✔ ✔
[4] The new regime was based on the army (✔) (✔) ✔
[5] The new regime arrested (oder tried to arrest) all members of the government and the parlament ✔ ✔
[6] The new regime violated the constitution (✔) (✔) ✔
[7] The new regime violated human rights ✔
[8] The new regime tried to suppress the mind of its opposition ✔
  1. ^ The opposition had at least one legal way to defend its position: accept the proposal of Morales for new elections. It is important to note that Morales had already accepted to do these repeated elections under the control of the international committee, a commitee the opposition itself had asked. Still the opposition demanded (and imposed) the resignation of the legal government ("Bolivia crisis: Evo Morales accepts political asylum in Mexico". BBC News. BBC. 12 November 2019. Retrieved 12 November 2019.).
  2. ^ how can it be, that something is and not is? well in this case it can: the army, at least during the act itself, didn't use it's weapons to abolish the legal government, on the other hand, it didn't protect the legal government, as it should, so it was a passive participation. The chief of the armed forces asked Morales to resign.("Bolivia crisis: Evo Morales accepts political asylum in Mexico". BBC News. BBC. 12 November 2019. Retrieved 12 November 2019.)
  3. ^ It is true, that the members of the Government and related Institutions that resigned, claimed that they were intimidated and harassed. I don't know if they brought evidences for these claims (although I actually believe them), so I let this as a true claim in the list. It is though a fact, that they found refugee in the Embassy of Mexico. ("Bolivia crisis: Evo Morales accepts political asylum in Mexico". BBC News. BBC. 12 November 2019. Retrieved 12 November 2019.)On the other hand it is true that the Minister of internal affairs announced, that he would arrest the Parliament members of the Party with the absolute majority in the parliament (still belonging to the same party like Morales), if they didn't consent to the decisions of the new regime. "Interim Bolivian Government Threatens Arrest of Opposition Legislators". 18 November 2019. "Journalists & politicians from Morales' party threatened with sedition arrests as Bolivia purges socialist elements". RT International. This is of course an intimidation.
  4. ^ I cannot really take a position here. Actually not more than four days later it proved to be, that the new regime was actually based on the army (Clarín.com. "Bolivia: el decreto de Jeanine Áñez para quitarle la "responsabilidad penal" a las Fuerzas Armadas ante las protestas". www.clarin.com (in Spanish). Retrieved 2019-11-17.)(Liberal, El. "Agreden en Londres a ministra de Hong Kong en medio de protesta - El Liberal". www.elliberal.com.ar (in Spanish). Retrieved 2019-11-17.)("Bolivia: el decreto de Jeanine Áñez para quitarle la "responsabilidad penal" a las Fuerzas Armadas ante las protestas". www.clarin.com. Retrieved 17 November 2019.) On the other hand it is true,that the police took part in demonstrations against Morales Collyns, Dan (November 9, 2019). "Bolivian police in La Paz join 'mutiny' against Evo Morales". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Archived from the original on November 10, 2019. Retrieved November 10, 2019. (often denouncing his people and his ethnicity Prashad, Vijay (November 13, 2019). "A Bolivian crisis" – via www.thehindu.com."When the US Supports It, It's Not a Coup". Common Dreams. Archived from the original on 13 November 2019. Retrieved 14 November 2019.)
  5. ^ very few members of the Parlament were arrested but on the other hand, some members of the Governement fleed and many of the members of the election committee (more than 38) were arrested. (Krauss, Clifford (2019-11-13). "Bolivia's Interim Leader Pledges to 'Reconstruct Democracy'". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2019-11-15.)("Clashes rock Bolivia after senator becomes leader". 2019-11-14. Retrieved 2019-11-15.)("Bolivia's Morales: Some lawmakers barred from assembly". www.aa.com.tr. Retrieved 2019-11-15.)("The Latest: Argentina urges Bolivians to talk, keep peace". AP NEWS. 11 November 2019. Retrieved 11 November 2019.)
  6. ^ ("Clashes rock Bolivia as new interim leader challenged". The Washington Post. 13 November 2019. Retrieved 21 November 2019.)
  7. ^ ("Bolivia's leader accused of stoking divisions after Morales' exit". Financial Times. 19 November 2019.)
  8. ^ ("Bolivia's leader accused of stoking divisions after Morales' exit". Financial Times. 19 November 2019.)

Thanks for posting, I agree it was a coup as well. MarianAlmazan (talk) 01:35, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it should be called a coup as well. Not sure if you even need the question mark really because there's a preponderance of evidence that it's a coup, but overall I like your approach and appreciate the through analysis. I think [3] is a bit more clear-cut than you're aware though. He clearly was intimidated and harassed (protesters committed a number of violent acts towards specific MAS government officials, including literally burning down his sister's house)[1].

  1. ^ ("Morales sister's house set on fire, right wing coup underway in Bolivia". Post Online Media. 10 November 2019.)

It is now more clear than ever- both in the increased doubt of the alleged fraud and in the behavior of the supposedly temporary regime in repressing dissent, arresting and threatening the political opposition, and continuing to delay elections- that this was a coup. It fits virtually every element of the definition. Zellfire999 (talk) 12:25, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No Excuse for Excluding MIT Researchers' Findings

The fact that MIT researchers were able to confirm CEPR's findings is an essential part of the story of this coup. Whether this was endorsed by MIT or whether it was new information has no bearing on whether this is important, because these findings were what caused the New York Times and especially the Washington post to cover the OAS's report critically. This had a significant effect on restoring Morales' international legitimacy and caused many more people to doubt the methodology and motivations in the OAS report. I also think it is highly inappropriate for Wikipedia to automatically assume that respected election experts hired to check the data in a study will automatically agree with the study just because they were compensated for their analysis. And the assertion that the CEPR report were not based on "direct analysis of evidence" is just entirely false, and firs-hand knowledge of Bolivia is totally irrelevant to the analysis because they backed up their claims with data and news reports. They were literally analyzing the same data used in the OAS report. But even if someone doubts the analysis, there is no reasonable excuse for removing this from the article aside from politically motivated censorship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.27.98.114 (talk) 02:46, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Chronology of Events section / decree no. 4078

The information is presented as though it were chronological, but actually when you read it through, it bounces all over chronologically. One case in point: the decree 4078 is actually mentioned 3 separate times, as though it were 3 different things. This is very confusing. Maybe it would be easiest to bring all of the events into a timeline. Otherwise, somehow it needs to be clarified that the events explained in the events section are not in chronological order. Laella (talk) 01:08, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Elections

Including rose-tinted purple prose about the Election bill, and claiming that MAS "returned to government," is completely baseless. The coup[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] government has "delayed" elections three times[8][9][10][11], has sold off huge amounts of public assets[12][13], massacred protesters[14][15][16], broken diplomatic relations with several countries[17], and they did all of this with a "President" that appointed herself without quorum[18]. The Washington Post has repeatedly retracted their support for the coup[19][20][21][22][23][24]. If you consider Evo Morales running with the approval of the courts to be "illegitimate," then surely an unelected "president" who denies elections that were supposed to be done a month after the interim government was formed is far more "illegitimate."

It is absolutely embarrassing to pretend that this is even a contentious issue. It isn't. Everyone who was trumpeting Evo's removal has been back pedaling for a year.

References

  1. ^ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/02/26/bolivia-dismissed-its-october-elections-fraudulent-our-research-found-no-reason-suspect-fraud/. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  2. ^ Molina, Jonathan (9 February 2020). https://www.dailycal.org/2020/02/09/us-must-condemn-coup-support-democracy-in-bolivia/. Retrieved 3 August 2020. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  3. ^ https://www.mintpressnews.com/after-supporting-coup-washington-post-admits-bolivia-elections-clean/265334/. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  4. ^ https://theintercept.com/2020/07/23/the-u-s-supported-coup-in-bolivia-continues-to-produce-repression-and-tyranny-while-revealing-how-u-s-media-propaganda-works/. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  5. ^ https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2019/12/mil-191225-presstv06.htm. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  6. ^ https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/07/30/our-obligation-defend-democracy-bolivians-join-mass-marches-against-election-delay. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  7. ^ Prashad, Vijay; Bejarano, Alejandro (28 July 2020). "'We Will Coup Whoever We Want': Elon Musk and the Overthrow of Democracy in Bolivia". Citizen Truth. Retrieved 3 August 2020.
  8. ^ "Bolivia's coup administration delays elections for third time". Morning Star. 30 July 2020. Retrieved 3 August 2020.
  9. ^ Vargas, Oliver (28 July 2020). "Bolivia's Coup Government Just Suspended Elections for the Third Time". Jacobin. Jacobin. Retrieved 3 August 2020.
  10. ^ https://www.ft.com/content/de1fbf40-87a3-4247-a569-c15a27beb68d. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  11. ^ Lopez, Oscar (July 27, 2020). "Bolivian Presidential Election delayed for a third time". Al Dia News. Retrieved 8/3/2020. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
  12. ^ "Bolivian Coup Comes Less Than a Week After Morales Stopped Multinational Firm's Lithium Deal". Common Dreams. 11 November 2019. Retrieved 3 August 2020.
  13. ^ Prashad, Vijay; Bejarano, Alejandro (28 July 2020). "'We Will Coup Whoever We Want': Elon Musk and the Overthrow of Democracy in Bolivia". Citizen Truth. Retrieved 3 August 2020.
  14. ^ https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/bolivia-protests-deaths-1.5362104. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  15. ^ https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-50441867. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  16. ^ https://www.npr.org/2019/11/16/780118421/8-killed-in-bolivia-as-protesters-call-for-return-of-ousted-president-evo-morale. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  17. ^ https://news.yahoo.com/bolivias-interim-government-cuts-ties-cuba-foreign-ministry-181604058.html. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  18. ^ https://www.foxnews.com/world/bolivia-opposition-leader-declares-president-morales-resignation. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  19. ^ https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/02/27/oas-has-lot-answer-new-study-disputes-key-claim-paved-way-right-wing-coup-bolivia. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  20. ^ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/01/no-evidence-of-in-morales-poll-victory-say-us-researchers-bolivia. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  21. ^ https://www.mintpressnews.com/after-supporting-coup-washington-post-admits-bolivia-elections-clean/265334/. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  22. ^ https://www.mintpressnews.com/after-supporting-coup-washington-post-admits-bolivia-elections-clean/265334/. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  23. ^ https://fair.org/home/wapo-prints-study-that-found-paper-backed-an-undemocratic-bolivia-coup/. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  24. ^ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/02/26/bolivia-dismissed-its-october-elections-fraudulent-our-research-found-no-reason-suspect-fraud/. {{cite news}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

fascist coup

https://jacobinmag.com/2019/12/bolivia-coup-evo-morales-jeanine-anez

This article is going pretty light on covering the more shocking actions of the Anez government.50.194.115.156 (talk) 13:49, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's not just going light, this article--especially if you see earlier versions before a minority of my suggested edits were accepted, it's fawning over Añez and doing everything to legitimize her and ignore reality. It was written by far right supporters of Añez, or at least of the 2019 coup.66.177.158.156 (talk) 15:48, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jacobin Magazine. Right wingers? A Marxist/Leninist magazine is right wing. Are you nuts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.214.104.61 (talk) 16:52, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, this wiki article. Also Jacobin is definitely not Marxist Leninist, lol — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.177.158.156 (talk) 20:25, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Which of the versions is better?

Recently a commie with an anonymous IP made a whitewash on the page and a user (that may be a sockpuppet of the IP since he has a warning in his talk page to not use his IP as a sockpuppet again) insists that it should be left like this. What revision do you think that better represents the sources?

Revision by IP says Revision by Lucasdmca

I think my version should be kept because the other clearly misrepresent the sources to represent the Bolivian government and its supporters in a positive light, omitting the buses attacks made by the Pro-Morales protestors that were mentioned in the source and the source`s claim that the public distaste towards his continued re-elections was one of the reasons for the crisis, among other errors.

In addition, he says the opposition was moving to the "far-right" and miners that were attacked were indigenous and the attackers were Pro-opposition, I did not find this information in the sources.Lucasdmca (talk) 03:32, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Lucasdmca:@Ip says: For clarity, can each of you respond with the original wording in contention and how you propose is should be changed? Krisgabwoosh (talk) 05:03, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am voting for the "communist". "... go ahead reagardless" of what? Burrobert (talk) 05:49, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I will put the current version(that IP says supports) of each sentence on top and the wording before the edit(that I support) of the anonymous IP below
the second vice president of the Senate, seized power. She announced she would be assuming the presidency
the second vice president of the Senate and the highest-ranking official remaining in the line of succession after the resignations, announced she would be assuming the presidency
source2
The police claimed the Morales supporters had vandalized police offices, inciting panic in some neighborhoods where people blocked their doors with furniture to protect stores and houses
The police said the armed group had vandalized police offices, causing panic in some neighborhoods where people blocked their doors with furniture to protect stores and houses.
source
The next few days were marked by protests and roadblocks on behalf of Morales' supporters. In Cochabamba, Sacaba and Senkata, civilians were massacred by government security forces who fired on peaceful pro-Morales demonstrations
The next few days were marked by protests and roadblocks on behalf of Morales' supporters. In Cochabamba, Sacaba and Senkata, civilians were killed during clashes with security forces
source23
BBC Mundo published an article suggesting that five main reasons combined to force Morales to resign: the disputed OAS audit results, the opposition from the military and police, the ongoing riots, the growing radicalization of the political opposition toward the far-right
BBC Mundo published an article suggesting that five main reasons combined to force Morales to resign: the disputed OAS audit results, the opposition from the military and police, the ongoing protests, the growing radicalization of the political opposition, and the public distaste towards his continued re-elections, and discontent among the opposition with his multiple election victories
source
The Morales government called on supporters to gather in the capital city of La Paz to defend the elected government, with reports of clashes between pro-Morales groups and opposition protesters
The Morales government called on supporters to gather in the capital city of La Paz "defend" him, with reports of pro-Morales groups attacking buses of opposition protesters.
source
indigenous miners from Potosí were shot and injured, reportedly by pro-opposition snipers
two miners from Potosí were shot and injured, reportedly by snipers
source Lucasdmca (talk) 06:58, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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