Talk:Jan Żaryn

BLP vio

This [1] edit attempts to turn the article into an attack page. From the sources given the only one which comes close to being RS is Polityka [2] and even that is an opinion piece which is not suitable for a BLP (main difference is that article manages to avoid the hysterics that others do). But even that doesn't say what is being claimed in the text. Furthermore that source does in fact have some notable and pertinent information about the subject - such that his family rescued Jews during the war and were recognized as Righteous Among Nations, or that his mother was arrested by the Nazis but released with intervention of the same Wehrmacht officer who saved The Pianist - but that is completely ignored. These are straight up POV edits and they violate our policies. Volunteer Marek 20:31, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

These are excellent sources, including oko.press. Commentary covers some of this in English, [3] (free copy: [4]), stating that Żaryn pushed the myth of "Jewish participation in the mass extermination of Poles."V.A. Obadiah (talk) 06:21, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

I suggest you ask for the review of this addition at WP:BLPN. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:52, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek, I don't think this is a BLP vio. Attack pages are "Pages that are unsourced and negative in tone", and that part was well sourced with at least 2 RS, Gazeta Wyborcza and Oko.press, that were already defined "Reliable".[5] If you want to add what happened with the family of this man, it is good, but has nothing to do with his statements section. And I'd like to point out that the only reason this guy is known internationally is because of his pro-nationalists attitude,[6][7] it would be strange to omit those informations. Balance: "Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone", so where is the "balance"?--Mhorg (talk) 11:17, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

BLP requires better sources than hit pieces in tabloids or websites that are ideologically opposed to the subject (and no, these sources were not “defined as reliable”). I don’t like the guy myself but you just can’t use his Wikipedia article to attack him. There’s nothing in there even close to a “disinterested tone” (aside from the Polityka source). And once again, you’re posting things like opendemocracy, which is simply not RS. Volunteer Marek 11:37, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek, please, why are you avoiding the counting for the reliability of these sources? I also made a recap in another thread, could you answer?[8] About "opendemocracy", I didn't use it on this article, I was only showing that international media talk about this guy just for his pro-nationalist attitude. About the BLP rule, the need of "disinterested tone" is referred to the text in the article, not to the text in the sources. And yes, that text was neutral, and, for each criticism, the subject who made it is reported: "Numerous statements by Jan Żaryn have been recognized by journalists of Gazeta Wyborcza, Polityka and NaTemat.pl as nationalist, anti-Semitic, chauvinistic and historically false. He attributes the responsibility to the Germans for provoking Poles to commit the pogrom in Jedwabne. He praised the activities of the pre-war fascist organisation National-Radical Camp (ONR). A journalist from Gazeta Wyborcza, Paweł Smoleński, regarding Jan Żaryn, said: "A man who happens to whitewash Polish fascism under the sign of ONR and NSZ.". I would like to point out that these statements are present also on the article in Polish.[9]--Mhorg (talk) 12:27, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Dude. What does this sentence even mean: "Numerous statements by Jan Żaryn have been recognized by journalists of Gazeta Wyborcza, Polityka and NaTemat.pl as nationalist, anti-Semitic, chauvinistic and historically false"???? "recognized"??? What? Huh? All these are opinion pieces and they're either not reliable (NT) or they don't say what this text claims. Volunteer Marek 15:38, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Insofar as we're discussing a politician then seven mainstream newspapers and magazines should be enough, though we should quote and attribute everything. François Robere (talk) 13:29, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

There is no "seven mainstream newspapers and magazines" here and that's putting aside that some of the sources being included don't actually say what the text claims. Volunteer Marek 15:37, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

And really, the whole question of reliability is 100% irrelevant as simply none of these sources support the text that is being inserted. This is pretty close to being sanctionable disruptive editing by Mhorg as it's a straight up misrepresentation of sources. Volunteer Marek 15:45, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Furthermore, Mhorg, it's pretty clear from this comment you left at FR's talk page (an indirect form of WP:CANVASS) that you don't even have access to some of these sources, hence you have not even read them. Why are you putting in BLP VIOs into the article based on sources you haven't actually read? Volunteer Marek 15:47, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek, I answer all your allegations:

About the use of "recognized", sorry, maybe my English could be misunderstood... but the meaning I think is clear: "those journalists consider those statement to be false..." and so on.

Please, if you read those sources, they clearly speak about "nationalist, anti-Semitic, chauvinistic and historically false" claims. For example this article accuses him of an anti-Semitic discourse,[10] while this article is incentrated to his "mythological" (historically false) view of the past in a nationalist\chauvinistic way.[11] What is perhaps wrong is that they are all merged (we could separate each accusation made by each newspaper/journalist) but the accusations are practically these and nothing written is false. The phrase should be adjusted.

About your accusation of canvassing, that was an old discussion with François Robere dated 20 March 2021 about Greniuch, and then I asked him how to read the entire article that links Greniuch to Zaryn, so it was pertinent to our discussion. And no, it wasn't canvassing, I talked about Greniuch-Zaryn in the Institute of National Remembrance discussion togheter with you and François Robere in 22 April 2021. Every Wyborcza article needs the subscription, but something can be read, and if you want with Google snippet you can read more (which is a time-consuming practice).--Mhorg (talk) 17:08, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Which of these seven newspapers and magazines aren't mainstream: Polityka, OKO.press, Gazeta.pl, Wyborcza.pl, na:Temat, DZIEJE.PL or POLITYCZEK.PL?

El C and here VM accuses someone of "indirect canvassing" for asking for help accessing a source. François Robere (talk) 22:38, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Why do you do this? Your WP:AE is still open and you can't help but try to escalate. Why you do always do this? It's pretty obvious he went running to your talk to bring you here. Did I report him? Did I threaten to report him over it? No. I was just pointing it out. Now, what may indeed be reportable is the fact that those sources don't say what he's claiming they say. That source does not "accuse him of anti-Semitic discourse", although I guess if you really read into it you could say it insinuates it. Which is not enough for a BLP. Same for the rest. Seriously FR, drop the constant WP:BATTLEGROUND. Everyone is sick and tired of it. Volunteer Marek 01:57, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

(Same goes for using sources in a BLP to attack the subject without actually having read them). Volunteer Marek 01:59, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek, please stop these accusations. If I had wanted to act as a "gang" I could have intervened in that AE request, which I have been aware of for days, and sided with François Robere... but I have not, because I'm not that type of user and you should stop offending me (I also showed how I was talking about the links between Greniuch and Zaryn in other discussion with you and François just days ago, but you clarly prefer to be blind). As for your accusations of not reading the sources, first of all I asked François for information on another article, which has not yet been included here, and then, I repeat, Wyborcza's articles are partly readable even without subscription. And yes, from what you can read (without subscription) from that article, that I inserted, it speaks of a nationalist reinterpretation of the facts of the 1968 Polish political crisis. As for the insinuation on an anti-Semitic discourse, that's right, that's exactly what the journalist means. I'll make a summary.

Politika 1: Accuse of nationalistic views\historical false: "About March [1968] anti-Semitism, although 'pathological', it 'did not represent the will of the nation, but only of Moscow.", anti-semitism "The Jews did something for themselves by filling the highest stools in the communist repression apparatus. The Kielce pogrom is, of course, a provocation." and homophobia: "he was able to write about Jerzy Zawieyski and Jerzy Andrzejewski as "sick people, sex addicts" (probably referring to their homosexual orientation)"

Oko.press: Anti-Ukrainian discourse: "The Polish side is doing everything to civilize the Ukrainian nation - the Ukrainian side is doing everything to leave this European civilization and still have claims against Poland, so that we can defend the interests of the Ukrainian state.", accusation of praising ONR: "A man who happens to whitewash Polish fascism under the sign of ONR" and much more inside the article.

Wiadomosci.gazeta.pl: Anti-semitic discourse: Zaryn "argues that any claims on the part of the Jewish community are "the will to destroy our [Catholic] religiosity" and so on "the Polish government decided by law to deny the crimes that Poles had committed against Jews. [...] Żaryn [...] throw accusations from his trenches of destroying the image of Poland and defend the anti-Semitic rite."

Wyborcza: Accuse of nationalistic views\historical false: "In his draft resolution for the 50th anniversary of the events of March 1968, PiS senator Jan Żaryn tries the impossible - at the same time he wants to apologize to the Jews and cleanse the Poles. We wrote about the resolution by Żaryn yesterday in "Wyborcza". Half a century after the last Jews were expelled from Poland, the senator apologizes, but blames everything on the communists."

natemat.pl: Accuse of nationalistic views\historical false: "Jan Żaryn claims that Poland is not guilty of the campaign against the Jews, as a result of which tens of thousands of people emigrated from the country. [...] This is a resolution that distorts the recent history of Poland. The purpose of this resolution is not to commemorate the events, it is not about historical memory. PiS wants to use this anniversary for historical policy purposes. And there is such a difference between historical memory and historical politics as between heaven and earth. [...] the resolution is scandalous also because the communists were miraculously separated from the Polish nation: - The content is soaked with nationalism. The authors sanctify the Polish nation, always innocent."

dzieje.pl Accuse of nationalistic views\historical false about the responsabilities of Poles in the Jedwabne pogrom: "Zaryn: The facts are that the Germans tried to provoke Poles to such actions"

So, please, could you please tell me if all this stuff is reliable or not? I think it is. I think it is also due and could balance the article.--Mhorg (talk) 09:41, 28 April 2021 (UTC)