Talk:New York City ethnic enclaves/Archive 1

Archive 1

Comments

I'm going to rewrite this as more of an article than a list. If anyone objects, please state so here or on my talk page. Thanks, mynameinc 00:59, 20 April 2009 (UTC).

• It always seems weird to me when the people living in an area are excluded from a places history and the story begun with European arrival. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

• The city wasn't founded until the Europeans arrived. Thanks, mynameinc 11:23, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Yorkville

Nice article, maybe a suggestion: The Upper East nieghborhood in the seventies and eighties was very Middle European (German, Jewish, Czech, Slovak, Hungarian, Polish) for most of the twentieeth century, and up until the nineties you could still get German language papers. Beleive it or not it still ratians some fo that character, thought dying fast.

I knew Yorkville was a large German neighborhood, as was Little Germany on the Lower East Side, but this was simply a rewrite of what was already there. I will do a German section. mynameinc 19:22, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Done I created a German section, and it includes Yorkville. mynameinc 19:49, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

More comments

•  DoneMake sure all paragraphs have refs, like New_York_City_ethnic_enclaves#West_African. Articles like this can tend to seem like WP:OR if they do not have enough refs. The more, the better.
•  DoneI'm sure there's probably more European ethnic enclaves. For instance, Ukrainian. (Info here).
• The section New_York_City_ethnic_enclaves#Argentinian.2FUruguayan is rather weak...is there more info about this ethnic enclave?
• Chinese:
  • The most alive and largest Chinese community in New York is in Flushing, Queens - What does "most alive" mean; another word/phrase would probably be better.
  •  Done The early settlers of Manhattan's Chinatown were from Taishan, Shanghai, and Guangdong.[37] They are most of the Chinese population of the area surrounded by Mott and Canal Streets. Instead of "They are most," maybe "They form most"? Spencer^{T♦Nominate!} 20:19, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
• Are there other ethnic communities that could be put in an "other" section at the bottom of each area, such as (in a possible "other" section, Cambodian, Thai, Indonesian, etc. at the bottom of the Asian American section?
• I'm not sure how well the 2nd paragraph of Filipino relates to NYC itself, unless there was a navy base there. Also, has there been more recent immigration-it stops in the 2nd half of the 1900s.
• More pictures can be used, like File:Astoria uncle georges.jpg in the Greek one. Also, do you have/can you make a map of these enclaves that could be a lead image for the article. You could have someone make one if you gathered all the info together. Spencer^{T♦Nominate!} 20:26, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

(I will add more as I go along). Spencer^{T♦Nominate!} 23:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks for the help. mynameinc 23:56, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Question: Do all sentences need inline citations, or will my list of sources at the end be fine for obvious information (e.g Spanish Harlem is home to a large Latino population)? mynameinc 23:58, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Not all of them. For instance: Woodside, Queens, has a Filipino American community. In fact, 13,000 out of 85,000 (~15%) of Woodside's population is Filipino. The first sentence doesn't need a citation, but the second sentence would. Spencer^{T♦Nominate!} 00:32, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Can I have too many inline citations? And do you see other problems? mynameinc 00:35, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think you can have too many. As for other problems, I will list with bullets at the top. Spencer^{T♦Nominate!} 20:04, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

What should I put in the "other" section? Any group with only one enclave, or with a couple of sentences under group's respective header?mynameinc 20:31, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Groups where there is not enough information to really have a separate main header-Cambodian enclave in NYC for example, where one can only say ~3 sentences about it. Combine others, like Thai and other Asian groups here, too. Length? You could probably devote a paragraph to each group under the "other" header. Spencer^{T♦Nominate!} 01:30, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

If there is a Cambodian or a Thai enclave in New York, I don't know about it. May be one in Queens, though. I will combine one paragraph enclaves into main sections mynameinc 19:49, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

GA nomination

The article has been put on hold until the end of May to give people time to structure the article and put it into context. A section on the overall history and development of ethnic enclaves in New York would be appropriate. Then looking into the best way of presenting the more detailed information: should this be by area/enclave or by ethnicity? SilkTork *^YES! 14:01, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I would say by ethnicity, because I feel the history of each ethnic group should be given in detail rather than each enclave, and besides, many ethnic enclaves are only one block. mynameinc 16:22, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Is structuring the only obstruction or is there something else? mynameinc 16:24, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

The structuring is significant enough at this point, as that involves substantial change to the article. When that has taken place I'll look at the article again.

Hell's_Kitchen,_Manhattan#History is worth looking at. That's a fairly notable New York City ethnic enclave - the history of that area includes Irish and Puerto Ricans. I'm not sure a simple ethnic group structure will work; and this paragraph is little more than a listing of Irish neighbourhoods, and I'm not sure what it is telling us: "Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, was originally developed as a resort for wealthy Manhattanites in 1879, but instead became a family-oriented Italian- and Irish-American community.[77] Another large Irish-American community is located in Woodlawn, Bronx, but Woodlawn also has a mix of different ethnic groups.[78] One large Irish community in Manhattan is Clinton.[79] Other sizable Irish-American communities include Belle Harbor and Breezy Point, both in Queens.[80][81]" I feel the material needs to be more selective, and assembled to give an understanding of the history and development of the enclaves.

Another possible approach for this article is to turn it into a List: List of ethnic enclaves in New York City. SilkTork *^YES! 19:22, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Originally it was a list, and may need to return to its first nature. It was hard to get what sources I did, because even self-evident truths have to be sourced, for instance, the history, development, and dominant ethnic group of Little Italy, or Chinatown. mynameinc 19:35, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

And are you asking I give more info of each enclave, as I did for the German section? mynameinc 19:39, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

The German section is a good starting point. It does lack detail though. Considering the notion of list and article, the information is closer to that of a list. It may be that this material is best suited as a list. The requirement for broader coverage as an article would be a major stumbling block to a GA pass. SilkTork *^YES! 08:51, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I have put some more suggestions on the review page. SilkTork *^YES! 09:17, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Sections done

Assuming you are asking for more info of each enclave, here are sections completed:

2 African and Afro-Caribbean  Done

2.1 African American

2.2 Jamaican

3 Asian American

3.1 Chinese

3.2 Filipino

3.3 Indian

3.4 Korean

4 European

4.1 German  Done

4.2 Greek  Done

4.3 Irish

4.4 Italian

4.5 Jewish

5 Latin American

5.1 Dominican

5.2 Mexican

5.3 Puerto Rican

6 Middle Eastern

mynameinc^{Ottoman project} 19:55, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Native New Yorkers/Americans

What about neighborhoods that have large popualations of NYC BORN or American born? Maybe it can be created into a seperate article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.224.236 (talk) 16:21, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:New York City ethnic enclaves/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Staring review. SilkTork *^YES! 15:40, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

A good article is—

1. Well-written:

(a) the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct; and

(b) it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

2. Verifiable with no original research:

(a) it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline;

(b) reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose); and

(c) it contains no original research.

3. Broad in its coverage:

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and

(b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:

(a) media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content; and

(b) media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

Presentation - layout and image sizing - could be tidied up to give a more attractive appearance.

Lead could be longer for the size of the article.

Looks like an impressive set of cites (not yet checked)!

Lead sentence could be tighter - and the assertion that New York "has been a major destination for immigrants of many nationalities" is not supported by the end sentence cite.

A history section is needed to give an overall background to the individual enclaves.

Prose is choppy, and the reason for the choice of information is not always clear. The Jamaican section is an example. I'm not clear what this has to do with New York: "In 1655, Jamaica was captured by the British, who brought African slaves in large numbers to work on plantations.[30] In 1838, the slaves were emancipated and owners starting paying wages to workers.[30] Many Jamaicans immigrated in the years following 1944, when the United States economy was rebuilding from World War II, seeing opportunity.[30] After 1965, when immigration quotas were lifted, Jamaican immigration skyrocketed again.[31]"

The initial impression is not promising. I feel there may be a considerable amount of work needed to structure this article. I'll take a closer look later. SilkTork *^YES! 19:19, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I wanted to give a history of each ethnic group, rather than just starting with each ethnic group's history in New York. I will improve the choppiness of the prose, and please give an example of a structuring mistake. Thanks, mynameinc 21:16, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

The structure is the selection and ordering of sections. As this is about ethnic enclaves in New York City I'd like to see a general overview of the history of those enclaves within the history of New York City before detailing individual enclaves. Then there is the decision to look into how to organise the detailed sections - would this be by area/enclave, or by ethnicity? I feel there is some work to do on this article to get that basic structure right first before it can be examined to see if it fits the criteria for GA. I'll put this on hold for 14 days to allow work to be done on the structure. I will pay close attention to the article, and if needed I will help out. SilkTork *^YES! 13:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I will give this the full 14 days, however I feel there is currently too much work to be done for this to pass as a Good Article. It is quite a deep and complex topic with many aspects to it, and I'm not convinced that the current structure is the best way forward for presenting the information in a manner that would be most helpful to readers. Some topics are easier to bring to GA because they have clear boundaries, there are plenty of sources, there is an agreed and accepted structure, and there is a definite start and finish point. The articles on Formula One races are an example. Other topics are so huge it takes a long while to hammer them into shape.

In addition to problems with structure, there is scant information in some sections, and the prose inclines toward a mere list of available facts. Sometimes the use of language is inappropriate: "the Chinese American population skyrocketed", "cellars, attics, and alleys all became home for some Irish immigrants", "the Dominican flag flies proudly from windows".

I think this is an interesting and important topic, and the amount of research and work done so far has to be commended. I have talked about the possibility of this becoming a List - though I think there is also possibility for this to become a very useful article. It may be that both an article and a list are present in this, and that consideration could be given to splitting it into two: List of New York City ethnic enclaves - in which the areas and ethnic groups are listed. And something like Immigration to the United States which concentrates on New York: Immigration to New York. SilkTork *^YES! 09:16, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Failing

The article doesn't meet GA Criteria. It has multiple issues, and advise is that the article is split and rewritten from the ground up along the lines proposed above. SilkTork *^YES! 09:04, 30 May 2009 (UTC) I would like to add that this article entirely omits the historical contributions of Africans who came to New York City as slaves circa early to mid 1600s. The Africans who came here as slaves contributed to every aspect of development of New York except the development of laws which they were victimized by. A good resource to use for inclusion of this information is Then I'll Be Free To Travel Home-the Legacy of the New York African Burial Ground by ERIC V. TAIT, JR. who is a respected documentarian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.192.157.157 (talk) 17:58, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:New York City ethnic enclaves/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

"Subject contributes to the total subject of the New York City WikiProject. Subject may not necessarily be famous. Many articles will be in this class." I felt the article met that criteria, so I rated it "Mid" importance. mynameinc 00:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 00:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 15:27, 1 May 2016 (UTC)