Talk:Boris Johnson

Fuel shortage

Fuel shortage is not caused by panic buying, but there is a lack of HGV drivers. --ZemanZorg (talk) 22:03, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

@ZemanZorg: I agree. BTW, the "panic buying" descriptor is currently being discussed at Talk:2021 United Kingdom fuel panic buying article title, too. —Bangalamania (talk) 22:41, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

It's not even a very accurate summary of the source given. "Johnson's comments were his first since the fuel supply problems began at the end of last week when oil companies reported difficulty transporting petrol and diesel from refineries to filling stations." It's fairly clear that there's a vicious cycle here that the panic-buying makes worse, but it's not started by that alone. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 23:30, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Holiday in Spanish villa

Johnson is "reportedly staying in a £25,000-a-week villa that is owned by Tory peer Zac Goldsmith": [1], who was made a peer by Johnson on 7 January 2020. Is this in any way notable or just tabloid tittle-tattle? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:45, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't think it's "tabloid tittle-tattle", it's factual, reported by good sources, and they clearly consider it controversial/a bad look. See also The Guardian's article. Goldsmith is reported as being a personal friend of the Johnsons, so there's that element to consider. The decision here is, once again, determining whether there's due weight to include this and whether it has lasting significance to Johnson. As with Fergusson, it's not really suitable as a stand-alone event within the chronological section on his premiership, but quite possibly suitable for illustrative purposes if tied to a broader theme, maybe in the personal life section?). Alternatively, there may well be scope for a paragraph on allegations of cronyism in the 'reception 'section, seeing as it's an accusation that has been extensively reported on. I don't think the source's suitability it's clear-cut either way, but more dependent on how/where it's used – so I'm open to other's thoughts. Jr8825 • Talk 12:56, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

"Thanks" for reminding me. I had all but forgotten about Mr Bullingdon Fergusson. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:13, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

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"Reacted slowly" to COVID in lead

Hello. @DeFacto: @No Great Shaker: @JLo-Watson: and others. There seems to be some editing conflicts about what should be said about Johnson's COVID approach in the lead. The section on COVID in this article does touch upon this topic and even uses the term "slow response", so would argue something touching on this could go in the lead too. I think "reacted slowly" is quite a neutral way of phrasing this (this has been agreed to be in the lead for Donald Trump for example).

An editor removed this and suggested this needs to be sourced. Sources for this:

• Forbes and Johnson himself "...mixed messages and a delayed lockdown.... the British prime minister initially resisted imposing a second lockdown.... Johnson reportedly admitted to close aides that the U.K. locked down too late"
• Reuters "Johnson, who contracted the coronavirus himself, was blamed by many scientists for acting too slowly to stop the initial spread in the spring"
• WP "But that go-slow approach by Britain began to shift on Monday... resisting the tough restrictions adopted by its neighbors" and this one also discusses how other European countries were already introducing measures whilst Britain was delaying them, and some of the domestic opposition to delaying restrictions at the time.
• The Times This talks about how Johnson did not attend five meetings of COBR in the early months of the pandemic. "It would not be until March 2 — another five weeks — that Johnson would attend a Cobra meeting about the coronavirus. But by then it was almost certainly too late." There is also a whole book based on this article called Failures of State
• Politico This quotes epidemiologist Neil Ferguson and a Labour health spokesman who say that the government was slow to react.
• Reuters "Johnson, who himself has sickened with the virus, moved more slowly than the leaders of many other prosperous countries to adopt a lockdown. He has been criticised for not moving more swiftly to organise mass tests and mobilise supplies of life-saving equipment and beds."
• AP News quoting a government report "UK's slow virus lockdown"
• The BMJ "By the time the UK formally announced a lockdown with a huge package of economic support measures, almost two months of potential preparation and prevention time were squandered"
• The Guardian
• New Scientist, quoting government report literally says "slow response" in the title

Could equally be a different way of phrasing this to encompass resisting implementing measures in the second wave too, sources:

• [2]
• [3]
• [4]

Welcome thoughts. Arcahaeoindris (talk) 14:52, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@Arcahaeoindris, the first thing I'd say is that the lead should summarise important content from the article body, and should therefore not need sources added to stuff in it. The body does characterise the government's response as slow, but that assertion is based on opinions and is not an incontrovertible fact. I think the body content needs to be fixed before we worry about what to put in the lead. -- DeFacto (talk). 15:18, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Reluctant to implement restrictions? I'm not sure I agree that the characterisation of the response as slow is wholly based on opinion, "the UK was amongst the last major European states to encourage social distancing, close schools, ban public events and order a lockdown" is a factual statement after all. But I do agree that the body wording can potentially be improved to read more clearly, and that lead changes should follow/summarise the body closely. I remember the discussion regarding "slow" on the Trump article – it's a tricky one as it's an inherently normative/judgemental term, but if there's a clear weight of sources which say words to this effect I have no issue with saying so in wikivoice. We don't need to write in a deferential manner, we just need to be careful we're not inserting any disparaging judgement of our own. If the sources aren't as clear-cut as they were for Trump, or they make a more nuanced description of Johnson's response, then a longer, more nuanced sentence is appropriate. I think it's worth referring back to MOS:WTW when trying to summarise, as it's particularly relevant for getting the balance right here – both in terms of avoiding MOS:WEASEL words that are more negative in tone than the sources support, and also in terms of avoiding unnecessary MOS:DOUBT or using MOS:EUPHEMISMs that result in whitewashing what the sources say. Jr8825 • Talk 15:51, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Or was it a quick response in deciding not to encourage social distancing, close schools, etc. at that early stage? We should be careful not to confuse speed of response with responding in a different way to some other governments who were working with a different set of data, and to different parameters. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:31, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Do you have any sources to support that interpretation? This sounds a bit like opinion and not an incontrovertible fact to me. This isn't supported by any source in the list above, or in this article, as far as I'm aware. This is not a place to debate this anyway - we are WP:NEUTRAL as Wikipedia editors and only summarise what is in reliable sources.Arcahaeoindris (talk) 17:55, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Which of those sources support the assertion that is was a slow response? -- DeFacto (talk). 18:14, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I have added relevant quotes to the top list. Arcahaeoindris (talk) 20:33, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

But none of them actually say, in the source's voice, that the UK was slow to respond. They are mainly reports of the opinions of various commentators (so would need to be attributed as such and not portrayed as facts), often comparing the UK's actual response (what they did or did not do) with that of other nations, but not necessarily saying the response was slow or slower, just different. And I'm sure if you tried, you could cherry-pick a similar selection of sources supporting the UK responses. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:29, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

have just added a few more. Several of them do say, in the source's voice, the word "slow", or otherwise "delay" or "resisted". Arcahaeoindris (talk) 21:48, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

But do many/any of them actually say in their voice that the government's response to the pandemic in general was slow? -- DeFacto (talk). 22:02, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes... that's why "reacted slowly" is being proposed. If we are being more specific, the sources support Johnson and the government being slow to respond to the onset of the pandemic in early 2020. I agree with @Jr8825: completely that the wording should be considered or perhaps more specific/nuanced when being summarised, but the clear weight of sources supports this. If you do not agree that the weight of sources does not support this then feel free to provide some. Arcahaeoindris (talk) 11:43, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

The current info about COVID in the lead is a very poor summary of the content in the body, vaguely detailing the government's actions rather than Johnson's, and we should broaden this discussion to pull out what are the key points to mention about Johnson and COVID. His hospitalisation seems relevant for example. "Reacted slowly" seems to be a reasonable way to summarise the first paragraph of the COVID section given that we say "made a number of policy decisions to curb the pandemic some time after the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) advised, then amongst the last major European states to encourage social distancing and This slow response each of which have numerous RS to support them. We do not need a source to explicitly state "reacted slowly". If there is disagreement over precisely what "reacted" means, then something along the lines of "was slow to enact disease control measures in the first and second waves" could work. I'd also be in favour of adding "leading to a high death toll" i.e. summarising thought to have contributed to the UK's high death toll from COVID-19, among the highest in the world in total and by population but appreciate that may be more controversial. SmartSE (talk) 12:17, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

They may have been just different responses though, not slow responses. That is, conscious and quick responses to follow those advising not to take those actions. That there might have been a change of heart later does not change that. Hindsight cannot be used to judge the past. -- DeFacto (talk). 12:39, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Comment: Some of the sources describing slowness in introducing restrictions (see Washington Post source) are from during the first wave, and before major restrictions (i.e. school and business closures, lockdown) i.e. not just because of "hindsight". And anyway, plenty of BLP pages examine historical decision making in this way. Look at the lead for Anthony Eden for example. Arcahaeoindris (talk) 14:13, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Surely a response of not acting, then acting after other countries already have, can be summarised as a "slow response"? I don't really follow your argument. Jr8825 • Talk 13:25, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

As we know, the government has various sources of advice. Their job is to weigh up the pros and cons given to support each offering. It could be that following one offering means rejecting another. If there were two mutually exclusive measures available - A and B - and one advisory group recommended taking measure A for reason X and another group said take measure B for reason Y, and the government chose measure B because they thought Y outweighed X, that doesn't demonstrate a slow response. It might indicate bad advice, or bad judgement, but that's a different matter. -- DeFacto (talk). 13:48, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

This is completely irrelevant - we follow the sources rather than using anything that "we know" don't we? Can we find even a single source praising Johnson's rapid reaction to COVID? SmartSE (talk) 16:50, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I completely agree with @Smartse: and support all of these suggestions except maybe mentioning death toll. Arcahaeoindris (talk) 14:13, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

"Slowly" is opinion, so needs very strong support to be stated in Wikipedia's voice. As DeFacto points out, its meaning in this context is also unclear as a summary, so even if we did want to convey 'slowness', we should reword it to remove the ambiguity. My more important question, however, is: why should this be in the lead? Why not the widespread praise for the speed of the vaccine rollout, for example? Apart from the final paragraph, the current lead does a decent job of presenting information neutrally (far better than the body), but the addition of terms such as "controversially" and "slowly" jeopardises that. EddieHugh (talk) 17:53, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2021

Boris Johnson
Leader of the Conservative Party
Incumbent
Assumed office 23 July 2019
Chairman	James Cleverly Amanda Milling Oliver Dowden
Preceded by	Theresa May

Can Chairmen of the Conservative Party who have served under Johnson be listed in his infobox, as they are with most Leaders of the Labour Party, and many Leaders of the Conservatives? 81.157.224.127 (talk) 21:52, 27 October 2021 (UTC)