Talk:Boris Johnson/Archive 7

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Perugia & Learning the Violin

Can somebody expand this section through time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.97.108.45 (talk)

Critics of Johnson

At present, the article says that critics of Johnson have accused him of opportunism, cronyism, and prejudice. While this is all true, I feel like his relentless political lying has caused much more opprobrium and controversy. Peter Oborne wrote an entire book about it. Could we add "dishonesty?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C8:2100:AB00:41E0:20BC:36B:122 (talk) 13:47, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Lead changes

Hi all, I recently attempted to shape the lead summary of Boris' premiership into something resembling a chronological narrative while maintaining the current length. This was a bold edit and I'm not particularly surprised it has been largely (but not fully) reverted by EddieHugh. However, I believe the text I introduced was a major improvement on the previous version and made it far more useful to the reader, per WP:AUDIENCE, by turning it from an inaccessible list of contextless facts to a brief analytical summary of the notable features of tenure expanded upon in the article body. (A relevant essay on this WP:RF). Eddie Hugh removed two specific additions with the edit summary "cut opinion and length". Regarding length, the total number of additional words was 40, which I think is a very small increase in return for a significant increase in readability and imparted understanding for the reader; it's also a very minor change in relation MOS:LEADLENGTH, which recommends 3-4 paragraphs (the revised still falls comfortably within this range). Regarding the assertion that the additions are "opinion", I'd like to discuss both separately, explaining why I disagree with the revert rationale and why I think both changes are improvements: Jr8825 • Talk 18:41, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for engaging on the talk page instead of reverting – a blessed relief compared with my recent experiences. My edit summary was actually "cut opinion and length (the lead is a summary; only the most important information should be here)". In an article on a current, very high-profile politician, we know that more information will have to be added (eg, he'll be an ex-PM one day). Therefore, we need to be very selective about what's in the lead. Exact dates of agreements ("17 October") aren't needed, and commentary (or "analytical summary") should be extremely selective, reserved for things that require contextual expansion. I agree that the flow of the lead could be improved, but that can be done with wording tweaks instead of additional sentences. Specific points are below. EddieHugh (talk) 20:07, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Apologies for shortening your edit summary. I take your point about the exact date being unnecessary. My thought process is that a date is helpful as it provides context for the surrounding sentences (i.e. negotiations were ongoing but not completed during the September prorogation, the snap election was called soon after Johnson had successfully reached a new agreement with the EU). While this might not be essential in itself, I think a date – perhaps a less precise one, such as "In October," – does add value to the paragraph by helping the reader understand how events related to each other. Jr8825 • Talk 23:07, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Prorogation

The reverted content is as follows:

−

Johnson [[Brexit negotiations in 2019|re-opened Brexit negotiations]] and in early September [[2019 British prorogation controversy|suspended Parliament]], a move widely seen as an attempt to avoid parliamentary scrutiny of the Government's Brexit plans; the [[Supreme Court of the United Kingdom|Supreme Court]] ruled the action unlawful later that month.

+

Johnson [[Brexit negotiations in 2019|re-opened Brexit negotiations]] and in early September [[2019 British prorogation controversy|suspended Parliament]]; the [[Supreme Court of the United Kingdom|Supreme Court]] ruled the action unlawful later that month.

This statement is supported a clear weight of sourcing – from across the political spectrum, as demonstrated by The Telegraph citation in the article body – and reflects what is said in both the body and in the article on the controversy itself in the briefest possible manner. I believe that the contextual knowledge provided (prorogation was widely described as a move designed to limit parliamentary scrutiny) is essential to understanding why it was considered controversial, ended up at the High Court and sparked a temporary political crisis which was a notable feature of his early premiership. Jr8825 • Talk 18:41, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

What's the relevance of commentary on how something was seen? The prorogation and SC decision seemed important at the time, but appear to have had a negligible impact. (You describe it as "a temporary political crisis" – that's right; very temporary, in fact. So why give it more attention than, say, his party's election win, where we offer no interpretation?) This is the article on Boris Johnson, not Brexit, or prorogation. Arguably, then, it's not worth mentioning at all in the lead, except that a PM's actions (actually the government's, so that could be rephrased for clarity) being ruled unlawful is unusual, so there's some merit to including "the Supreme Court ruled the action unlawful". EddieHugh (talk) 19:44, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

The reason I think it needs more space is not because it's necessarily more important to Johnson than the election win, it's because I think it's simply harder to explain to the reader, and consequently needs more words dedicated to it (I think cutting the clause about the political purpose results in the controversy of events not being spelt out clearly). My view is that its importance is established by its unique/unprecedented context within British constitutional history, a point sources made at the time. However, as there's disagreement about this, I agree this is something that other editors should weigh in on before inclusion. Jr8825 • Talk 23:07, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

On second thoughts, perhaps saying "...and in early September controversially suspended Parliament;" does the job adequately? Jr8825 • Talk 23:09, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Meh: it being declared illegal is enough to show that it was controversial. And what about a political leader's political actions isn't controversial? We could accurately report "After agreeing a controversial revised Brexit withdrawal agreement with the EU but controversially failing to win parliamentary support for the agreement, Johnson controversially called a snap election". It doesn't add anything. EddieHugh (talk) 17:32, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

The difference in my mind is that the snap election didn't spawn a "crisis". I respect your opinion though and I'm keen to hear whether other editors share your view. I don't object to the word being removed if it lacks consensus, I hope I made this clear with my edit summary. Jr8825 • Talk 17:39, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

NI Protocol

The reverted content is as follows:

−

On 17 October, a revised [[Brexit withdrawal agreement]] was agreed with the EU, the most significant change being the replacement of the [[Irish backstop]] with a new [[Northern Ireland Protocol]]. After failing to win parliamentary support for the revised agreement...

+

After agreeing a revised [[Brexit withdrawal agreement]] with the EU but failing to win parliamentary support for the agreement...

This is a relatively uncontroversial statement and the NI Protocol is an exceptionally notable piece of legislation: dropping the unpopular backstop was a key part of Johnson's public agenda; the new NI Protocol was widely discussed at the time (and still is) and has had major political and economic repercussions for the UK & NI. It helps readers unfamiliar with the topic to understand that the NI Protocol (frequently mentioned in media sources) is connected with the revised withdrawal agreement, and explains the central difference between Johnson and May's approaches to Brexit. The other change to the withdrawal agreement was the political agreement, which received far less attention, and is not particularly notable to Johnson's life in its entirety (the subject of this article). I don't particularly object to its addition, but my concern was brevity and summarising the most important elements of Johnson's tenure. Additionally, the additional wording provides better chronological flow. I look forward to hearing others' opinions on these proposed changes. Jr8825 • Talk 18:41, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Unless I've missed it somewhere in what is a mess of an article, the NI Protocol isn't mentioned. Yet the edit stated in Wikipedia's voice that this was "the most significant change". EddieHugh (talk) 19:33, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

This is a fair point – but most importantly it's an indication that the new NI protocol is missing from the "Brexit policy" sub-section of "First Ministry (July–December 2019)", a major oversight as it really should be there. This looks like the result of the prose simply being outdated: the whole section is inadequate as it completely fails to mention the finalised agreement and concludes with Johnson's failure to call a snap election on 15 October, even though the election was called soon after because of the lack of parliamentary support for the agreement. I'm happy to go ahead and rewrite it with a more detailed summary of the revised withdrawal agreement, with additional sources, over the next few days. The NI Protocol was the most significant of the changes in the 2019 renegotiations, I've little doubt the weight of RS analysis/news reports supports this. Johnson's opposition to the backstop is also mentioned in two other separate sections, "2019 Conservative Party leadership election" (within "Return to Parliament") and "Immigration and the European Union" (within "Political positions and ideology"). These mentions are insufficient though, as they're discussing his position prior to becoming PM and prior to the outcome of the 2019 negotiations. Although they demonstrate the importance of Johnson's opposition to the backstop to his political positions, they're relatively less notable compared to what he actually achieved in the revised agreement. As I touched upon above, aside from possibly the pandemic response, the withdrawal agreement, enabled by the NI protocol (and subsequent "Irish Sea border"), is very likely the most notable policy he has implemented as PM so far, so I think it's a very strong candidate for inclusion in the lead (and should be, in my view). Jr8825 • Talk 23:07, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

@EddieHugh: I've gathered a selection of quotes from RS to demonstrate both that 1) the 2019 NI Protocol has been an extremely important policy within Johnson's PMship and 2) the new NI Protocol is unanimously considered to be "the most significant change" coming from his 2019 renegotiation. The protocol is likely to be heavily discussed in the short term as the UK and EU argue over whether it should be replaced, so I also backdated some searches to show how consistently mentions have been over the last few years. Frankly the list of sourcing for the importance of Johnson's NI Protocol is inexhaustible, but this is what came near the top of my results:

Sourcing demonstrating importance of NI Protocol

BBC: The government said border checks on goods from Great Britain it signed up to in the 2019 Brexit divorce deal had proved unsustainable. ... The checks are included in the Northern Ireland Protocol, a section of the Brexit deal designed to avoid border checks on the island of Ireland. [1] CNBC: The U.K. has called for a complete overhaul of the Northern Ireland Protocol, a key tenet of the Brexit agreements that Prime Minister Boris Johnson agreed with the European Union in 2019. [2] France24: The Northern Ireland Protocol in the Brexit withdrawal deal replaced the prospect of a problematic frontier between the UK and the Republic of Ireland with the reality of a problematic frontier between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. ... the Irish Sea border disrupted food supplies and online shopping deliveries ... graffiti opposing the customs border emerged in unionist areas while authorities had to suspend customs checks at Northern Irish ports due to “menacing behaviour” from some loyalist militants. [3] Reuters (via France24): The Northern Ireland protocol was part of the Brexit settlement, backed by Prime Minister Boris Johnson, that finally sealed Britain's divorce from the EU four years after voters backed leaving in a referendum. [4] Institute for Government: On becoming prime minister in July 2019, Boris Johnson declared May’s backstop “anti-democratic and inconsistent with the sovereignty of the UK as a state”.[4] By October 2019, the prime minister had made good on his promise to renegotiate the Withdrawal Agreement and ‘ditch’ the backstop. ... The new protocol made the Withdrawal Agreement acceptable to pro-Brexit Conservative MPs ... But it drew strong criticism from the Conservative Party’s then confidence-and-supply partner: the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP). After the Conservative victory in the December 2019 general election, the UK government pressed on with ratifying the deal despite the newly re-established Northern Ireland assembly unanimously rejecting it. [5] Sources to show this has been continuously reported: The Independent (Jan 2021): The Road Haulage Association has warned that the supply chain is “within days of falling apart” because of new Brexit paperwork making it much more complicated and expensive to transport goods from the British mainland to Northern Ireland. But Mr Johnson played down the seriousness of the problem, caused by the introduction of a customs border down the Irish Sea under the terms of the EU withdrawal agreement which he signed. He said he was ready if necessary to invoke Article 16 of the agreement’s Northern Ireland Protocol, which gives the UK the right to take “appropriate safeguard measures” without consulting Brussels if the settlement causes “serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties”. [6] The Guardian (Jan 2021): The EU caused outrage on Friday evening when it invoked article 16 of the post-Brexit mechanism to stop the unimpeded flow of vaccines from the European bloc into the region. But it later abruptly reversed the move following condemnation from London, Belfast and Dublin. [7] FT (Sept 2020): The UK government was explicitly warned in January that Boris Johnson’s Brexit divorce deal would leave Brussels able to claim jurisdiction over “large amounts” of UK state aid policy after the end of the transition period ... Under the Northern Ireland protocol, which was agreed to enable Brexit without creating a hard border on the island of Ireland, the UK agreed the region would follow EU state aid law for any matter that affected goods trade. [8] The Irish Times (Sept 2020): ... threatens to derail the current EU-UK trade negotiations, which resume in London on Tuesday. Brexiters fear that the withdrawal agreement, which includes a protocol to avoid a return to a hard border in Northern Ireland, makes it impossible for the UK to be truly sovereign because it leaves London tethered to Brussels in key areas, including state aid and customs policy. [9] Bloomberg (Aug 2020): The Brexit Withdrawal Agreement signed by Johnson in late 2019 effectively creates a customs border in the Irish Sea, where goods crossing from the rest of the U.K. to Northern Ireland must comply with EU rules and pay any potential post-Brexit tariffs. The solution was designed to avoid creating a hard border on the island of Ireland. [10] Sky News (April 2020): But the government's command paper on how it plans to implement the Northern Ireland protocol paints a rather different picture of what has been agreed. There won't be checks on goods moving between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, but there will be "some new administrative processes" on products coming in the opposite direction. [11] The Guardian (Nov 2019): Boris Johnson has been accused of misleading the public about his own Brexit deal, after footage emerged of him telling exporters in Northern Ireland they will not need to fill in extra paperwork. ... Under Johnson’s revised withdrawal agreement, Northern Ireland will continue to follow the EU customs code, which includes customs declarations and other formalities. [12] FT(Dec 2019): Boris Johnson’s honesty was put under the spotlight on Friday after he insisted his Brexit deal would not require any checks on goods travelling within the UK across the Irish Sea, in spite of abundant evidence to the contrary. ... consequences for small traders of the Northern Ireland protocol agreed between the UK and EU as part of Mr Johnson’s withdrawal agreement. [13] BBC (Oct 2019): Most of the changes - to the deal agreed by Theresa May with EU in November 2018 - are to do with the status of the Irish border after Brexit. This issue has dominated talks for months. ... The new protocol replaces the controversial Irish backstop plan in Theresa May's deal. Much of the rest of that deal will remain. [14] Full Fact (Oct 2019): One of the key differences between the Withdrawal Agreement drawn up by this government and the EU, and the previous one signed off by Theresa May’s government, is the Northern Ireland protocol. It has been argued that the new withdrawal agreement will create a “border down the Irish Sea” with checks taking place on goods crossing into Northern Ireland from Great Britain. [15] Washington Post (Oct 2019): Much of Johnson’s deal remains the same as his predecessor’s, with language on the transition timing, the rights of E.U. nationals and the amount of money Britain has to pay the E.U. — the “divorce bill” — largely the same. Where it differs significantly, however, is how it handles Northern Ireland and the risk of a hard border with Ireland. [16] Politico (Oct 2019): The Political Declaration is not legally binding. But assuming nothing else has changed in the legally-binding Withdrawal Agreement other than the Northern Ireland Protocol (as appears to be the case)... [17] FP (Oct 2019): Very little actually distinguishes Johnson’s proposal from that of his predecessor, former Prime Minister Theresa May. The only substantial difference is the economic status of Northern Ireland post-Brexit and, specifically, how to manage the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland [18] Demonstration of JSTOR sourcing: ...agreement was reached in October 2019 on a revised Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland. Johnson was certainly able to claim that the backstop had gone; with the revised Protocol,[17] the UK was no longer committed to a customs union with the EU if the future UK-EU relationship did not deliver on avoiding a hard border on the island of Ireland. The reason was simple: in exchange for dropping the UK-wide Customs Union with the EU, Johnson had agreed that the Protocol's differentiated arrangements for Northern Ireland would be the default position at the end of transition. Westlake, M. (2020). Outside the EU: Options for Britain. Agenda Publishing. p. 168. ISBN 978-1-78821-312-7. JSTOR j.ctv16qjx9d.20. Although the Irish border was becoming an external EU boundary both sides wanted to ensure that the integration on the island of Ireland was disrupted as little as possible in the process. ... [under the protocol] the UK agreed to apply the rules of the EU as if Northern Ireland were still in the EU's customs union and single market for goods. And the EU agreed to treat Northern Ireland on these terms, and to depend on the UK authorities to enforce its rules. This constitutes an extraordinary economic arrangement. It is unprecedented in terms of international law. Hayward, Katy (2020). "Customs, consent and compromise: The significance of the Brexit Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland". Fortnight (479): 22–24. ISSN 0141-7762. JSTOR 26991402.

I will try to update the body shortly to integrate some of the relevant detail about Johnson's Brexit policy during his first ministry. Jr8825 • Talk 15:03, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

( Done) – although further work is needed on the Brexit section's final paragraph to tie it into the "2019 general election" section. Specifically, information is missing on Johnson's failure to win approval for the revised withdrawal agreement and the subsequent calling of the election (his Benn Act-mandated Brexit extension might also warrant a passing mention, although it's a balancing act with clarity/brevity). Also, the "loss of working majority" section might benefit from minor contextual additions. These changes should make the chronology of events clearer. I've got some half-baked ideas about how to implement them, but I'm unsure when I'll get round to it so if someone else wants to go ahead, please feel free.

So, with the backstop & NI Protocol now discussed in the appropriate place in the article body, and the above sourcing demonstrating their significance, do others have objections to the following change?

−

After agreeing a revised [[Brexit withdrawal agreement]] with the EU but failing to win parliamentary support for the agreement...

+

In October, a revised [[Brexit withdrawal agreement]] was agreed with the EU which replaced the [[Irish backstop]] with a new [[Northern Ireland Protocol]]. After failing to win parliamentary support for the agreement...

Thanks, Jr8825 • Talk 23:31, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

An abundance of sources – thank you. The only one that I see observing directly that this was pivotal is the one with "a key tenet", which isn't even "the key tenet". There were others at the time. But the rewording omits the original's "the most significant change", so I'm neutral on it. EddieHugh (talk) 18:00, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Ewen Fergusson

This article reports that "Government passed over 171 candidates to pick Bullingdon Club ‘chum’ of Boris Johnson for sleaze watchdog role". It's also reported here and here and here, etc. etc. Is this notable? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:28, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Where would it go? By itself in exclusion, probably not. There isn't a subsection in the second ministry where it would slot in, nor is there an obvious section that could be created for it – and there's WP:RECENTISM to contend with if it's added as a chronological event within his premiership (it's questionable how notable it will be in the scheme of his PMship, more likely it's just a minor scandal which will disappear in the next news cycle as people forget about it). While that's a bit of a sad reflection of the standards of public office, we're just here to follow the sources. Where I could envisage it fitting in is the reception section, as part of a sourced paragraph there detailing how allegations of "sleaze"/"cronyism"/"dishonesty" have been a consistent, notable aspect of critical coverage of his premiership/life (cronyism is already mentioned in the lead, suggesting there's due weight for this, there's also sources such as this [19]). Jr8825 • Talk 15:19, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Well, I should have guessed, really. We now already have Ben Elliot and his cash-for-access club, which has now even touched our future King?! [20]. So Mr Bullingdon Fergusson will soon be forgotten I guess. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:29, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Afghanistan

Over the last month or two, we've witnessed two things: Boris Johnson (in quite a quiet, near-secretive manner at that) withdrawing the remainder of the UK military from Afghanistan ahead of the US withdrawal - and trying to back it up with the statements we now know to be false that I will come back to at the end - and the Taliban sweeping across Afghanistan in a month.

Afghanistan, as in the US, is also significant in the UK. We've been nearly as involved as they are, and although we haven't been quite as involved over the last several years as maybe the US has, Boris Johnson has been a major part of the withdrawal - and its effects - and let's be honest, it's blown up in his face nearly as badly as it blew up in President Biden's. Let me now use two of the quotes - "There is no military path to victory for the Taliban" (Boris Johnson, July), "I do not think the Taliban are capable of victory by military means" (Boris Johnson, also July). It's also important, if this section is approved, to include the criticism - particularly from the Leader of the Opposition's speech to the Commons on Wednesday 17th August, whereby he criticised PM Johnson for being "wrong and complacent", and where in particular his rather (in my opinion) vague and meagre plans for refugee housing - including 5,000 refugees that he'll send back at an undetermined point - were attacked, as well as where he stated the military's lives were "not in vain". It's very important to listen to both sides - especially when PM Johnson's side is clearly seen as wrong, including by his own MPs who were in agreement with most of his speech.

There's also been a very important development with Dominic Raab and Boris Johnson alike - their holidays at really, really, really pivotal times. Dominic Raab is still on holiday in Cyprus as I write this, unless I'm mistaken, and Boris Johnson went on holiday the day Kabul fell (and returned the following day). It doesn't need saying that this faced intense scrutiny and criticism, including the term dereliction of duty from military leaders.

This has been a major moment in Boris Johnson's premiership, and should be included in his article of his premiership. (talk) 10:49, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Forvana, mischief-making by the opposition is not notable as that is predictable and not necessarily anything more then feigned indignation, so to add it would be to give it undue weight. However, if they were to support what the government were doing, that might well have due enough weight for inclusion.

That doesn't mean that robustly sourced comments by qualified expert commentators on this matter should be excluded though. -- DeFacto (talk). 11:18, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 September 2021

It has been proven beyond repute by Peter Stefanovic that Borris Johnson has lied to parliament and the British public repeatedly.

A short video exposing Borris Johnson's lies can be viewed on Stefanovics Twitter or YouTube pages.

Source: https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1434792759911751681?s=19 86.145.116.214 (talk) 03:23, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Please discuss if the source is reliable for inclusion - FlightTime (open channel) 03:38, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2021

Remove death and cause of death, as Boris Johnson is still alive. 82.30.230.50 (talk) 19:06, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

 Already done Vandalism reverted. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:18, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

One Nation Tory

Why has the fact Boris Johnson is a One Nation Conserstive been removed from this topic's opening text? Is there a valid reason behind this? FlowD (talk) 23:01, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

It's still there in the lead. It says: He has been described as adhering to the ideology of one-nation and national conservatism. Does that help? No Great Shaker (talk) 23:04, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Aha; thank you. Yes that does help. I didn't see this. All good!

FlowD (talk) 23:08, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, it got caught up in edits, so it was in, then out, and possibly being shaken all about. But it's now back where it has been for a long time. EddieHugh (talk) 13:59, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

BoJo Redirect Hatnote

Is it necessary to have the Redirect Hatnote from BoJo? If you type "Bojo" you will go to Bojo (disambiguation). You only get to Boris Johnson if you type in "BoJo". None of the other things on the Bojo (disambig) use the capital J, therefore I feel like it's not probable someone would accidentally end up on this page by typing in "BoJo". snood1205^{(Say Hi! (talk))} 16:09, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree. It should be removed, absolutely. No Great Shaker (talk) 21:25, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I'll make the change now then. It seems like there hasn't been any warring over it previously, so it should be good to go. If any discussion happens over restoration, feel free to ping and I'd discuss more. Cheers! snood1205^{(Say Hi! (talk))} 18:05, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Demands for apology (racism and Islamophobia)

For anyone joining this discussion, which began on a user talk page and was moved to here, the issue is whether the following paragraph should be appended to the section headed "Allegations of racism and Islamophobia" as a continuation of its subject-matter:

On 28 September 2021, Labour's deputy leader Angela Rayner posted reports confirming that Johnson has refused to apologise for racist comments about African people; Islamophobic remarks about Muslim women; a homophobic "tank-topped bum boys" jibe; and branding the children of single mothers as "ignorant and illegitimate". She insisted that Johnson should apologise for his racist, homophobic and sexist comments.<ref>{{cite news |url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58708009 |last=Scott |first=Jennifer |title=Labour conference: Angela Rayner renews attack on Johnson in scum row |date=28 September 2021 |work=BBC News |publisher=BBC |location=London |access-date=29 September 2021}}</ref>

This was added by myself, using the BBC source, on 1 October and, same day, was reverted by DeFacto whose edit summary includes:

this characterisation is unacceptable in a BLP as it implies the opinionated allegations are assertions of fact.

The discussion began on 1 October with the mail immediately below the following move notice. No Great Shaker (talk) 11:12, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Moved here from my talkpage. -- DeFacto (talk). 22:02, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

You [DeFacto] say that this characterisation is unacceptable in a BLP as it implies the opinionated allegations are assertions of fact. The information is sourced to the BBC and I could add a myriad of other sources to that. In a BLP, a reliable source is required, of course, and I have provided one. You say opinionated allegations about the fact that Johnson has refused to apologise. Not assertions of fact but actual facts – he has refused to apologise. No Great Shaker (talk) 21:53, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Also, how does "characterisation" come into it. Johnson has written these comments. No one is satirising him. He has written extremely objectional comments in published material and, when challenged, has refused to apologise. As the reliable source, one of many, says. No Great Shaker (talk) 21:57, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

And to express this in WP terms, you are in breach of WP:PRESERVE because you are removing appropriate content that is reliably sourced. The content is entirely relevant to a section entitled "Allegations of racism and Islamophobia" – it follows on from everything else in that section. Allegations have been made, based on stuff Johnson has actually written, and Mrs Rayner has publicised the fact that Johnson has refused to apologise for his comments. No Great Shaker (talk) 22:06, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

No Great Shaker, you added it, it was challenged twice, now it's time to discuss. The BBC say: "she repeated her accusations.... Has he accepted that he has said anything racist , Islamophobic, homophobic, or whatever? -- DeFacto (talk). 22:12, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict)You are being pedantic. The BBC may have said "accusations" but the fact is that Johnson WROTE this crap and has refused to apologise. The point is not that Angela has accused him but that she has posted reports which confirm Johnson has refused to apologise for writing homophobic, Islamophobic, racist and sexist smut that has offended many people. Have you not read the rest of the "Allegations of racism and Islamophobia" section and can you not see that Angela's "accusations" and her demand for an apology are a continuation of the section's content? I despair. No Great Shaker (talk) 22:19, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

@No Great Shaker, no, all I am doing is applying Wiki's NPOV and verifiability policies, particularly wrt BLPs. Regardless of your personal opinion, we cannot imply in Wiki's voice that he needs to apologise because in someone else's opinion he has done something that in their opinion he should apologise for. -- DeFacto (talk). 22:27, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

No one is implying anything. I have added relevant content that is reliably sourced and what you say there is complete and utter rubbish. He has been challenged numerous times about comments like this as the section already recounts. It is not just Angela's opinion – she has posted reports which confirm Johnson's refusal to apologise and that is reliably sourced fact, not someone's "opinion". Are you by any chance a supporter of Johnson because if you are then the content of the article is "regardless of YOUR personal opinion"? No Great Shaker (talk) 22:34, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

@No Great Shaker, saying he hasn't apologised implies he should have - and that is subjective opinion which needs to be appropriately attributed as such, and not asserted as fact. I could post reports that you had failed to apologise for something - would that mean it's a fact that you should have apologised and had refused to? -- DeFacto (talk). 22:45, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Per WP:PRESERVE, if you have a problem with the wording of the paragraph (in that you think it implies something "in Wiki's voice"), why not be proactive and suggest an improved wording instead of adopting a WP:IDHT stance? No Great Shaker (talk) 22:43, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

@No Great Shaker, I don't think it's worthy of inclusion here - it belongs in the accusers article and not in the accussee's. And with the accuser being a member of the opposition shadow cabinet it would probably be giving it undue weight anyway, as that is what they do every day. OTOH, if she was vociferously supporting his right to free speech that might be notable enough to include. -- DeFacto (talk). 22:54, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

No, what you saying there is WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Unacceptable. Furthermore, criticism of a politician by an opponent is not WP:UNDUE – nearly all political biographies contain critical comments by opponents. No Great Shaker (talk) 23:02, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict)What on Earth are you on about? Saying he hasn't apologised implies he should have??? No one is implying anything. Read the paragraph again. Angela posted reports (on Twitter, as it happens, but that doesn't matter because the BBC reproduced it) confirming that Johnson has refused to apologise. That is FACT. Angela then insisted that he should apologise and even though that is her opinion (and that of all decent people everywhere), the BBC reported it as such and so it is verified information that is relevant to the content of this section. We are quite in order to record an opinion in an article if it is verified and relevant to the subject. Btw, you don't need to ping me each time. No Great Shaker (talk) 22:59, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Why is an apology required? Feigned, or even real, indignation at a comment or remark does not therefore mean that there was anything wrong with that remark. And unless we can assert, as an incontrovertible fact, that an apology was required, then we should not be giving any weight to a demand for one, especially from a political opponent. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:47, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

The paragraph says why an apology is required. Angela "insisted that Johnson should apologise for his racist, homophobic and sexist comments". These are the comments which Johnson has refused to apologise for, as confirmed by the BBC. They are the same comments which have already been detailed in the allegations section. To assert that feigned, or even real, indignation at a comment or remark does not therefore mean that there was anything wrong with that remark is complete and utter BS, as well as poor English ("does not therefore mean"). The verified facts are that Johnson made those comments in published articles; he has been asked to apologise; and he has refused to apologise. You also say that we must assert if an apology was required but we should not mention a demand for one when the demand is itself the assertion. You need to edit your comments before submitting them because none of that last message makes any sense. As for Angela being his political opponent, so what? All political biographies include criticisms made by political opponents. That's par for the course. No Great Shaker (talk) 12:52, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Comments, demands for apologies, apologies, declining to apologise – all of these are covered in the article already, and not just in the 'Allegations of racism and Islamophobia' section. There's a high level of criticism in the article already and (as I've said before), almost nothing on why he's popular with a lot of voters. Reporting another person repeating the same thing wouldn't help this balance or add anything. The whole Rayner episode looks like name-calling for the sake of political point-scoring. If it has a lasting impact on Johnson, it could be worth including; if not, then follow WP:NOTNEWS and omit it. EddieHugh (talk) 13:57, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Extraneous discussion re possibility of no consensus

Unless anyone else wishes to contribute to this discussion/argument within the next 24 hours, I will terminate it as a no consensus and replace the paragraph at issue, although I will consider the import and wording to see if I can improve it. No Great Shaker (talk) 09:36, 2 October 2021 (UTC) The consensus required is one to add it, so no consensus means leave it out. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:41, 2 October 2021 (UTC) No, it does not. Stop inventing things. No consensus means that it stays – as at AFD, CFD, etc. If you want sourced content removed, you have to justify it and since you have by no means achieved that, you need a consensus to support your argument. Without that, and given that the content is both relevant and reliably sourced, it goes back in. You have every right to remove unsourced content, of course. No Great Shaker (talk) 09:46, 2 October 2021 (UTC) Per WP:NOCON: "In discussions of proposals to add, modify, or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit. However, for contentious matters related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify, or remove it.". You are trying to add something contentious about a living person. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:55, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

I think this should be included. Maybe trim the content as a compromise? The comments don't need to be repeated as they're already covered in that section. Rayner calling out Johnson for this is just as notable as Rayner's 'scum' comments, which are covered in her own article. –Bangalamania (talk) 14:57, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Comment: The "Allegations of racism and Islamophobia" section does already contain the content of Labour MP Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi calling on Johnson to apologise for some of the previous comments and states that Johnson declined to apologise. A concern I'd have would be if this section becomes long and bulky with different quotes from various Labour MPs criticising Johnson it may start to appear unduly negative. I don't think the comments by Johnson need to be repeated in the section, but I wouldn't object to including a fairly brief sentence from Angela Rayner stating, in her view, that Johnson should apologise. The article, as a whole, already contains much criticism of Johnson and his character by various people such as Max Hastings and Peter Oborne. The article should always strive for a neutral tone. Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 00:16, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Having read the above, I’m confident that the paragraph should remain as originally included. It is appropriately sourced and cited. It is appropriately worded. It is given appropriate context by the other content in the section. Chausettes (talk) 00:50, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

First, thanks to each of Eddie, Bangalamania, Kind Tennis Fan and Chausettes for your comments which are all to the point, rational and very helpful. I'd be happy to take out any mention of the subjects which are already included in the section but there is one raised by Angela Rayner which is not there. This is Johnson branding the children of single mothers (Angela herself was formerly a single mum) as "ill-raised, ignorant, aggressive and illegitimate". The BBC altered it to "ignorant and illegitimate". To settle this finally, I suggest appending to the final paragraph:

On 28 September 2021, Labour's deputy leader Angela Rayner posted a comment by Johnson which branded the children of single mothers as "ignorant and illegitimate". Having been a single mother herself, Mrs Rayner insisted that Johnson should publicly apologise. (source: BBC News, as before)

What do you think? No Great Shaker (talk) 03:51, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Is this the same old 1995 snippet dredged up again, the one that, in 2019, Johnson dismissed as having had its context stripped from it as part of a Labour smear campaign before the 2019 election? I suppose if it is added to the article, NPOV would require that the original context be described and Johnson's dismissal of it last time Labour used it be added too. -- DeFacto (talk). 15:41, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source for the original context of the "snippet" and Johnson's dismissal of it? By dismissal, don't you mean refusal to apologise? You also need a reliable source for your alleged smear campaign. No Great Shaker (talk) 15:59, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Does this not constitute WP:RECENTISM and WP:UNDUE? Why are Rayner's remarks especially worth noting here in his biography?  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 18:22, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

My initial impression is similar to Spy-cicle's. I'm don't think it's obvious why Rayner's comments are notable to Johnson's life as a whole, I don't think a statement by an opposition figure is a particularly good source for a politician's biography (its inclusion could appear a partisan editorial decision - I'm sure Tory MPs have made comments defending Johnson), and I'm also unconvinced that a specific demand for an apology rises above the NOTNEWS cycle. To clarify, I'm not commenting on the suitability of adding similar criticism of Johnson, I'd be open to covering such criticism if it came from stronger, more authoritative sources (expert/analyst/journalist voices talking about Johnson directly, rather than reporting comments made by a politician). Also, if this criticism were eventually included, the section title would probably have to broadened, as it isn't racist/Islamophobic, more sexist/classist. Jr8825 • Talk 18:44, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

H'mmm! Actually, I accept the arguments put forward by Spy-cicle and Jr8825|. I have to agree that it is WP:RECENTISM and I take Jr's point that criticisms by a political rival, no matter that they are pertinent and right, don't carry the same weight as those by a recognised political commentator. While I still reject the utter nonsense that has been spouted by DeFacto, I have decided to let this matter rest and leave the paragraph out of the article. Thank you to everyone else who has contributed. No Great Shaker (talk) 05:09, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Confirmed number of children

According to Sky News he has confirmed in an interview with NBC that he has six children: [21] 84.92.90.18 (talk) 13:53, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

There are currently four different sources, supporting that fact, in the infobox alone. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:24, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Should it not remain "At least 6"? The logic behind this previously being that 6 were confirmed, and there was speculation of more due to other affairs. He has now confirmed 6, but the speculation of more remains valid. Cjeam (talk) 17:36, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

From what I can see, reliable sources see this as confirmation of the number of children he has, so we should go with that Jopal22 (talk) 17:40, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

So the interviewer's question was about "six" not "only six". Johnson was hardly like to respond with "as far as I know" or "at least", was he? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:52, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

I also wonder if it might be better to still say "At least 6". There are numerous sources in the article of him being accused of lying. Just because he says something doesn't mean it should be accepted as fact. At the very least, the speculation should be mentioned in an infobox note because his previous refusal to disclose a number caused a lot of press. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 19:32, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Answering in the affirmative to the question "do you have six children" is not a direct lie if you, in fact, have more than six? You might even call it a "politician's answer". This all assumes, of course, that he actually knows. Maybe there are some paternity tests that have never been done. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:23, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

I feel on reflection like it may be being a bit pedantic to retain "At least". 6 were speculated, he's confirmed 6, what level of validity is required for sources on how many children someone has? Usually we accept what they say, while for many people who face allegations of impropriety "at least" would be a reasonable qualifier, but it is rarely used. Unless there were serious suggestions of another child that were relevant (as it was around the time of the court lifting the injunction), it seems more practical to just say 6. Cjeam (talk) 20:46, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

@Plantsurfer: Regarding the disagreement over the use of conceived/fathered here. Conceive doesn't always mean to get pregnant, it can mean to "create (an embryo) by fertilizing an egg". The Independent source uses "conception" (which is a direct quote from the court case) while the Guardian source uses "conceived". "Fathered" means the pregnancy resulted in a child being born. It's possible he had an extramarital affair result in a pregnancy without a child being born. Saying he "fathered" two children from affairs is not supported by the sources. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 01:31, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Regardless of that, conceptions that failed to come to term are not notable, and obsessing about how many there were looks like prurient interest. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a red-top. Plantsurfer 10:53, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

From Wilfred Lawrie Nicholas Johnson to Lara Lettice. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:29, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Huh, just realised that Lara Johnson-Wheeler has her own article. –Bangalamania (talk) 08:30, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I guess we're going to keep the note by the "6" in the infobox; I removed "confirmed" in case it gets confused with the Catholic ceremony and changed the note to read After years of avoiding the subject, in September 2021, Johnson said that he had 6 children, but some have reported that he may have more than this. See #Relationships for more information. Not the best wording I know, but I think it's best to keep the note short and sweet. –Bangalamania (talk) 08:30, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Clearcut case of us relying on an unreliable primary source, I fear. Yes, many reliable sources have reported his belated acknowledgement of one of his children, but it's not an accurate summary of them to characterise them as saying he has precisely six in total, in Guardianvoice, Indyvoice, WaPoVoice. Indeed, the latter somewhat smirkingly points to this article, so it's rather ironic it's now decided to prematurely de-fuzzy itself in response to this partial acknowledgement. To be clear, one of the sources mentioned above, the Independent says: "It is believed that the prime minister has seven children, however, he has not officially confirmed the exact number." This is already cited in the article. Failure on our part to verify the article contents against our own sources. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 07:28, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Shambolic speeches a calculated act

I made an addition to the article which I think is very revealing about Johnson's careful cultivation of his public image; it was immediately reverted with comment rvt addition of detail from one commentary piece in The Spectator (due weight? unclear significance for bio), and without clear quote marks... I think the incident shows a lot about Johnson's techniques and should be included (possibly worded differently). If there is agreement I'd suggest it be reinstated in some form.

Jeremy Vine described a speech Johnson made to a business audience before he was Mayor of London; it was shambolic, chaotic and with forgotten punchlines to jokes, but the audience loved it. But any impression of carelessness and true disorganisation was tempered when Vine was at a speech to a different audience two years later: it was identical, misfired joke by joke, the identical talking points ("SHEEP") writ large on a visible sheet of paper.

Pol098 (talk) 15:36, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

@Pol098: The problem is that it looks like original thought/interpretation, based on an opinion piece, and presents it as fact without properly attributing it. Perhaps it could be better composed to make it clearer that it's all Jeremy Vine's opinion (we shouldn't be be writing "it was shambolic, chaotic" without direct quote marks, per WP:WIKIVOICE and WP:WTW). The broader problem is whether the source warrants inclusion at all – its style ("My Boris Johnson story") is concerning; op-eds are primary sources (WP:NOROPED) and there's WP:RSEDITORIAL to consider. There are better sources out there, making explicit statements about Johnson's image rather than inferences about motive such as the ones Vine is making on the basis of witnessing two speeches (e.g. proper news pieces have covered this, there are more authoritative commentators than Vine, such as the London bureau chief of ARD, and I expect there will also be expert sources/academics too). Jr8825 • Talk 16:04, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

@Jr8825: Thanks for detailed comment. I think the incident I referred to is quite different from those you cite, but agree that my wording wasn't great.

Specifically, there are many sources about Johnson lying, making things up on the hoof, etc., but the incident of the exactly-repeated scripted pseudoshambles shows something different which isn't otherwise revealed in the article I think, a technique rather than an attitude; a knowledge of and deliberate cultivation of shambolism as a cuddly audience-pleasing (and potentially vote-winning) attribute. My wording was rather based on a comment I'd made elsewhere, and isn't encyclopaedic enough. Maybe I'll have another, more appropriate, stab at it in due course. Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 17:30, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

(ec)Agree that it shouldn't directly -- much less in our editorial voice -- state Vine's conclusions that the speech was shambolic, etc, much less that it was deliberately so. I think the source might be usable for reportage of the bare facts of those speeches, briefly and explicitly as being as witnessed by Vine (same delivery, same AWOL punchlines, same cues), in the context of other sources on his "image", and allow readers to draw their own conclusions if they decide to read the remainder of the piece. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 17:36, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

How does this look?

Jeremy Vine described a speech Johnson made to a business audience for an awards ceremony before he was Mayor of London; he said that Johnson arrived just moments before the speech was to start, then seemed not to know what the topic was, told anecdotes and jokes for which he had forgotten the punchlines, did not address the topic at all - but the audience loved the chaos of it. Eighteen months later Vine was at a similar occasion where Johnson was also the speaker. Vine said that he made exactly the same speech—late arrival, off-topic, the identical same rambling anecdotes and misfired jokes—and received the same laughter and applause. Vine commented "now I understand everything".

Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 14:56, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

@Pol098: I have two specific comments regarding your wording. Firstly, "now I understand everything" isn't very helpful and sounds leading, which isn't suitable for the factual tone of an encyclopedia. Secondly, "the audience loved the chaos of it" is again his own interpretation/analysis, I think that would need to be clearer. That said, I'm still against giving this source the amount of space you're talking about – particularly after reading it fully, as it's written as soft news rather than serious journalism, which is a bit of a red flag per WP:RSEDITORIAL, as I mentioned above. If it's to be included, I think it should be kept to a much shorter, clearer sentence summarising its argument, something along the lines of: "Jeremy Vine observed that Johnson gave multiple speeches with the same careless, disorganised delivery style, and [interpreted this as]/suggested/argued this could be a deliberate act to endear himself to his audience". If you think that something like that would be a valuable addition, go ahead – I'm ambivalent and won't oppose it, although my reservations about the quality of the source remain. Jr8825 • Talk 22:30, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Holiday in Spanish villa

Johnson is "reportedly staying in a £25,000-a-week villa that is owned by Tory peer Zac Goldsmith": [22], who was made a peer by Johnson on 7 January 2020. Is this in any way notable or just tabloid tittle-tattle? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:45, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't think it's "tabloid tittle-tattle", it's factual, reported by good sources, and they clearly consider it controversial/a bad look. See also The Guardian's article. Goldsmith is reported as being a personal friend of the Johnsons, so there's that element to consider. The decision here is, once again, determining whether there's due weight to include this and whether it has lasting significance to Johnson. As with Fergusson, it's not really suitable as a stand-alone event within the chronological section on his premiership, but quite possibly suitable for illustrative purposes if tied to a broader theme, maybe in the personal life section?). Alternatively, there may well be scope for a paragraph on allegations of cronyism in the 'reception 'section, seeing as it's an accusation that has been extensively reported on. I don't think the source's suitability it's clear-cut either way, but more dependent on how/where it's used – so I'm open to other's thoughts. Jr8825 • Talk 12:56, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

"Thanks" for reminding me. I had all but forgotten about Mr Bullingdon Fergusson. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:13, 12 October 2021 (UTC)