Talk:2021 Formula One World Championship

“Other points finish”

As a statistics enthousiast this drives me nuts. Why don’t we keep track of who finished P4-10? Especially since out of the points finishes are specified to the actual finishing spot... HANS33YOLO (talk) 16:54, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

We do keep track of all positions for sunday races, but only P1–P3 for sprint qualifying races, as they're the only ones that earn you any points. Ved havet (talk) 17:09, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

No we shouldn't set a different colour for every position between 4 and 10, like we do for 1, 2 and 3. Per MOS:COLOR, I'd say it's questionable whether the results table should even be using colours at all. Joseph2302 (talk) 18:23, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that's what HANS33YOLO nor I was saying? Regarding the colours though, I don't see how it's an issue considering the guidelines, other articles like it, and common sense. Ved havet (talk) 22:50, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't see how the tables are a violation of MOS:COLOR. The colours used in the table aren't essential for communicating information, they are there for visual convenience. They also seem to meet contrast requirements, so I don't see how they are an accessibility issue at all.
5225_C (talk • contributions) 01:05, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Ignoring the "are the colours in line with MoS" tangent (I think that @HANS33YOLO: was refering to the sprint results, I've pinged him so he can confirm), the long standing consensus is to keep track of positions which contribute to the standings, or have some notable significance (the latter being the justification for listing poles and, pre-2019, fastest laps). Sprint race results only meet this criteria if the driver scores points. If we didn't take that approach, we would soon face requests to include quali results in the tables too. These requests would be reasonable as sprint races are officially the equivilant of qualifying in "normal" weekends (i.e. it sets the race grid).

In the event that points are no longer awarded for sprint results, we won't list those results. If points are awarded for "normal quali" results, we would include those results. SSSB (talk) 08:53, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the purpose of listing pole positions in the championship standings section, as points aren't awarded for it (other than at the 0.2% of races where sprint qualifying has been used), and the polesitters are already listed in the "Grands Prix" table of season reports. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 09:30, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Because (to quote myself) "[it has] some notable significance". Secondary sources reguarly identify the polesitter so we do to. SSSB (talk) 09:39, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Have to agree with SSSB here, poles and fastest laps are a pretty integral part of the Grand Prix results.
5225_C (talk • contributions) 09:44, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

We have an entire grand prix results table which already includes poles. I’m beginning to seriously doubt the point of including the poles in the championship tables. That’s just not the right place to highlight them.Tvx1 02:11, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Agreed that showing poles just makes the table even more cluttered. As a summary of points across the season, all sources should be accounted for, which poles are not at this time. Twirly Pen (Speak ^up) 04:18, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

I think it would be quite a mistake to remove poles from the standings table considering their significance. Almost every place where a race is reported on they will mention the pole sitter pretty early on, it’s something considered pretty relevant that someone will want to know when looking at the results and standings. I don’t know don’t think including it in the standings table could be accurately described as clutter JamesVilla44 (talk) 07:31, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

I completely agree, it's important contextual information and that's always been reflected in sources. I would strongly oppose any removal of poles and fastest laps from the tables.
5225_C (talk • contributions) 12:03, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

There are plenty of other tables and sections in appropriate articles where pole position is shown. The table in question is a points summary. Poles are the only notation to have no affect on these results. The other series that do include poles do so because pole position awards points there. Twirly Pen (Speak ^up) 19:03, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Sounds like a bit of a slippery slope to me. If you remove poles because it doesn't impact on point scoring, then you can also remove fastest laps from drivers outside the top 10, and then you can remove non-points scoring results that didn't contribute to the countback. Since doing these things is obviously unreasonable, it is far more accurate to say the table is a results summary rather than a points summary. And since poles are an integral part of results, they must also be included.
5225_C (talk • contributions) 23:27, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree with 5225C, it isn't a points summary, it is a results summary (hence the heading: "results and standings"). So the arguement "they don't contribute to points" doesn't mean anything. SSSB (talk) 07:40, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 October 2021

change from [File:Max Verstappen 2017 Malaysia 3.jpg to [File:Max Verstappen 2017 Malaysia 1.jpg or request wiki commons to be updated from a teenage to a mature age photo Ahlmannkarl (talk) 21:41, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Using a non-smiling photo does not improve the article. There's no such thing as requesting for Commons to be updated, Commons is updated whenever someone decide to upload their work under a share-and-adapt license. Ved havet (talk) 23:16, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Turkey pole position

Despite the application of grid spot penalties, sources would seem to indicate Lewis Hamilton was still the nominal "pole position winner" at the Turkish Grand Prix this year. This article (which misstates Hamilton's starting position) shows a picture of Hamilton with the pole winner's "trophy", which seems as clear an indication to me as anything else. I would, therefore, question the pole position label given to Bottas in the World Drivers' Championship standings table, on the grounds that starting from the pole position is not the same as winning the pole position award. And if there is no appetite to change it, perhaps this is one of those instances where a descriptive note is necessary? -- Scjessey (talk) 15:41, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

We have: "Bottas claims pole" from Formula1.com, "Bottas on...pole after penalty" from BBC, "Bottas on pole" from Autosport, "Bottas on pole" from F1i.com. I would therefore argue that this is WP:UNDUE. As an (WP:OR) aside, I suspect the pole position trophy is awarded to the fastest qualifier rather than the pole sitter (which is the same person around 95% of the time, hence the name, pole position trophy is catchier than fastest qualifier trophy). SSSB (talk) 16:32, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

I think this is a fair assessment. Cases like Leclerc at Monaco this year shows that there are in fact circumstances where the pole sitter might not actually start on pole (or start at all), but in those circumstances pole position will be left vacant on the grid. When the fastest driver in qualifying is moved back by the FIA as a penalty however, the second fastest driver gets pole. It's important to remember that "pole position" is defined as the first starting position in the Grand Prix, not the fastest driver in qualifying for that first starting position, in the rare case where those two are different. If you start in that very first box painted on the track, you're on pole. Ved havet (talk) 17:42, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

I understand all that, and I don't need convincing. Nevertheless, Hamilton was celebrated as the pole position winner after qualifying, and the picture of him holding the corresponding winner's trophy exists. I think this at least warrants a note of explanation. I would say to SSSB that while WP:UNDUE might apply, WP:OR has nothing whatsoever to do with it, since reports not only state Hamilton won qualifying, but also state he was credited with his record 102nd pole position. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:13, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

That's a mistake on NBC's part. 1 2 Regarding the tyre, Hamilton actually gave it to Bottas after the fact, with Mercedes confirming the "102" was because it quote: "would have been Lewis' 102nd pole." Ved havet (talk) 23:03, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Nevertheless, I believe an {{efn}}-style explanatory note may remove any ambiguity. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:16, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

A footnote has already been added (in the Grands Prix table, which is the norm) :) Ved havet (talk) 23:39, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

None of the sources you provided earlier actually work.Tvx1 02:33, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Fixed, sorry about that. Ved havet (talk) 08:07, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

@Ved havet: Christ, I didn't even notice that. I'm an idiot. My bad. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:56, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

No worries! It's absolutely important that we clarify when these are the circumstances. Ved havet (talk) 14:59, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

So do we agree it's clarified then that the Pole Position Award is given to the driver who actually earns the right to start from pole position and that Lewis Hamilton picking up the trophy in Turkey was actually a breach of protocol? The official list credits the award to Bottas in Turkey. The only exception to the rule appears to be the Sprints where a "Speed King Award" is handed out instead to the winner, regardless of penalties for the race, of the Pole Award.Tvx1 16:53, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

That would appear to be the case. SSSB (talk) 09:41, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

I would agree with that. But I would also state that it should be standard practice for an {{efn}} to be used to explain whenever the pole sitter is not the driver with the fastest lap in the final segment of qualifying at a given race. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:41, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

It already is - at least for the races this season. SSSB (talk) 12:45, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

That is in the Grands Prix table. It isn't the current practice in the results matrixs (here or in the driver/constructor results tables.) SSSB (talk) 12:47, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

I understood that order of procedure that the penalty was applied only after Hamilton claimed whatever position from qualifying. All the sources even state that Hamilton will receive the penalty after qualifying. Twirly Pen (Speak ^up) 23:02, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Has this been resolved? Another noteworthy fact is that Hamilton's time of 1:22.868 was never stricken or otherwise amended. Even if it's an FIA gaff, all sources state Hamilton won pole and was then given then 10-place penalty. Twirly Pen (Speak ^up) 19:15, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

This shouldn't even be an argument and is being put forward on cases for emotion. Monaco 2012 set the precedent. The pole man is the one who is listed as starting in 1st place on the grid after penalties: it is not necessarily the fastest qualifier. Spa-Franks (talk) 23:59, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

To answer your question Twirly, yes, this discussion has been resolved. Ved havet (talk) 12:38, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Belgium "fastest lap"?

Did the FIA state that Mazepin's "fastest lap" wasn't recognized, or that no half-point was awarded due to him being classified outside the top-10? Twirly Pen (Speak ^up) 23:06, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Mazepin's "fastest lap" was never recorded since it did not happen on the single lap that was counted towards the race results. No fastest laps were recognised/recorded. As such, the Belgium GP has no fastest laps at all.
5225_C (talk • contributions) 23:44, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying! Twirly Pen (Speak ^up) 04:29, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

No problem, and welcome back
5225_C (talk • contributions) 06:12, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

A little older and a little wiser, I hope! Good to see a few familiar names still floating about. Twirly Pen (Speak ^up) 21:18, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Russian flag in calendar?

In addition to Mazepin being unable to use the Russian flag, I am noticing on broadcasts that the Russian flag is also not being used when referencing the Russian Grand Prix. There is simply no flag, instead of the RAF flag Mazepin uses. Is this something that's been discussed previously? Twirly Pen (Speak ^up) 21:54, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't think it's been discussed centrally but I think it has been discussed through the edit history. To the best of my understanding, the WPF1 convention is to use the flag to represent the country geographically speaking (hence why we don't use regional flags for Tuscan GP, Styrian GP, Miami GP, etc.). SInce it's geographical instead of the flag used by the promoter, we can still display the Russian flag.
5225_C (talk • contributions) 00:12, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

It's actually more than that. Becuase we are not Formula One, we are not subject to the WADA rulling (banning the use of the Russian flag in World Championships, including F1). The reason we have the RAF flag for Mazepin is becuase the flags being shown for drivers are a reflection of official sources - otherwise we would still have the Russian flag. The flags for the GPs are not a reflection of official sources - therefore there is no reason not to shown the Russian flag. SSSB (talk) 16:16, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Shouldn't Wikipedia reflect official sources? Isn't NOT following official sources a case of WP:ORIGINAL?? Twirly Pen (Speak ^up) 21:08, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Why are our flags for GPs not reflective of official sources, yet those for the drivers are? It is a glaring inconsistency. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:15, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

I personally do not believe they should be. I always thought it was geographical, and I don't really understand SSSB's explanation. If we were to go on how they appear on the broadcast we would have to have " Styrian Grand Prix" which to me seems a bit ridiculous. If we were to copy the FIA classification version] then we would still use national flags (except for Russia) but I believe an argument could be advanced that we should also use their race abbreviations. As far as I see it, the Russian Grand Prix promoters were prevented from using their flag due to the WADA ruling, but since we are not the promoters this seems to be a WP:COMMONSENSE situation. Our tables use the flags to indicate geography, so we use the Russian flag even though the promoters can't.
5225_C (talk • contributions) 23:18, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

By that token, we could use flags to represent a driver's nationality in whatever sense we see fit, without having to worry about WADA or whatever symbol the media use for Mazepin. I agree with using flags to represent location rather than the title of the race, and the consequence of avoiding the WADA ruling with regard to the Russian flag for the race. I just don't see why we have to follow that ruling for Mazepin. It seems rather selective. The WADA ruling doesn't apply to an online encyclopedia. The bloke is still Russian, same as the track is still in Russia. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:53, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

we could use flags to represent a driver's nationality in whatever sense we see fit and we do, by using them to reflect the nationality of the driver's license, which is who they represent in the sport.
5225_C (talk • contributions) 01:19, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I think we are using a little too much common sense. If none of the official sources uses a Russian flag, then we shouldn't either. The flag is still rightly represented on the event's wiki as well as Mazepin's wiki, but as this page is a representation of this particular championship (and others impacted by the WADA ruling), it should be reflective of the sources - which do not use the flag. Twirly Pen (Speak ^up) 02:32, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm not following that line of thinking. We don't require a source for geographic indicators, the race is in Russia, that's not being disputed. It makes sense to use the Russian flag for the Grand Prix because its purpose is to indicate the event occurred in Russia. It does not make sense to use the Russian flag for Mazepin because he isn't competing as a Russian. I don't understand why it matters what official sources are doing in this circumstance, because the purpose of the flags in our articles isn't affected by the restrictions placed on them. We're trying to signal to our readers where the events took place, and I don't get why removing the Russian flag is helpful in this situation.
5225_C (talk • contributions) 05:54, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I think it's fairly well-established that with drivers we're indicating sporting nationality and with the races we're indicating location. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 08:02, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree that WP:COMMONSENSE means we should continue to show the Russian flag. We are not subject to WADA restirctions, so why make life more difficult for our readers? SSSB (talk) 13:45, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I also think it's fine as is, but I think the argument presented is that if we don't use the Russian flag alongside Mazepin, who is Russian but can't represent Russia officially at the moment (but rather represents the Russian Automobile Federation), why then should we use the Russian flag alongside the Russian GP, which is in Russia but can't officially be a Russian event? Or, if we should use the Russian flag alongside the Russian GP because we can, why then should we not use it alongside Mazepin? For the record, my answer would be that athletes much more commonly don't represent the country they're from or live in, so it complicates things if we aren't going to use official sources on representation for the flags of athletes. Events however, are where they are. Ved havet (talk) 20:39, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Ferrari note

Name team entrant reported into the table is Scuderia Ferrari Mission Winnow (as the season entry list). Note added to report that the team has entered with a different name for some rounds. Indeed, the team entered with a different name (only Scuderia Ferrari) from rounds 7-14, 16. The rest of them (1-6, 15, 17-maybe to 22) as Scuderia Ferrari Mission Winnow as reported in the table therefore is unnecessary to describe both cases. We have another similar case into the 2019 page season, in which Ferrari entered differently to the season entry list. They entered as Scuderia Ferrari Mission Winnow compared to Scuderia Ferrari as the table shows for some rounds. Island92 (talk) 14:43, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@Island92: yeah, that's my bad - I misread the note. I thought it was Scuderia Ferrari [[Mission Winnow]]{{efn|name=Mission Winnow|[[Scuderia Ferrari|Ferrari]] entered rounds 1–6, 15, 17 as "Scuderia Ferrari Mission Winnow" and rounds 7–14, 16 as "Scuderia Ferrari".<ref name="entry lists"/>}} (bit I misread bolded for emphasis. SSSB (talk) 08:46, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

However, my confusion does highlight something - if I get confused it is equally likely that others will too, and therefore I still think it best to clarify. SSSB (talk) 09:11, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

What do we have to clarify exactly? Rounds show this information where the team has entered with a different name (7-14, 16). It is useless mentioning the others because the team as entered as the team name entrant in the season entry list. Island92 (talk) 10:30, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

The only exception is that the team has entered with a second different name (Scuderia Mission Winnow Ferrari) only for round 1. This is also reported because we are talking about a different name entrant compared to that of the season entry list (Scuderia Ferrari Mission Winnow). Island92 (talk) 10:33, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

@Island92: it is worth clarifing because others may think what I thought - that we have neglected to mention rounds 2-6, 15 and 17 becuase "Scuderia Ferrari Mission Winnow" and "Scuderia Mission Winnow Ferrari" are very similar. If someone doesn't read very carefully they will make the same mistake I made - and highlighted above. SSSB (talk) 10:35, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't think so. Rounds 2-6, 15, 17 are not reported because there is not a difference to the team name entrant. The reader must know it. As I said previously, Note was added to demonstrate where the team has entered with a different name. This is the only good reason. We did it in 2019. And this occurred for rounds 7-14, 15. Entry list for every Grand Prix is included. The reader can click on them. Island92 (talk) 10:43, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

@Island92: I know why rounds 2-6, 15 and 17 are not reported and I agree with the premise. I am just saying that you have to read very carefully and slowly to notice the difference between "Scuderia Mission Winnow Ferrari" and "Scuderia Ferrari Mission Winnow" and therefore readers may miss the distinction and therefore readers may be confused by the missing rounds 2-6, 15 and 17. I therefore think a different approach is necessary for the 2021 table. SSSB (talk) 11:07, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't see any difficulty reading carefully. Readers can do it easily as well. I'd like @Tvx1: to give his opinion. He made some edit in previous season about this aspect. Island92 (talk) 11:19, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

(EC) I agree with SSSB here. There is a benefit here in being clear (even if it is obvious to you, it won't be to everyone as the names are very similar) and no harm whatsoever in including a bit more detail. A7V2 (talk) 11:21, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

@Island92 and A7V2: with your permission I would like to close the discussion here and migrate it to Talk:2021 Formula One World Championship (WP:CENTRAL) rather than ping individual editors here (which looks like Wikipedia:Canvassing, I'm sure its not - but without digging, it looks like it) SSSB (talk) 11:29, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Ok. Island92 (talk) 11:33, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

No issues with me, I only came here due to the edit summary! A7V2 (talk) 11:45, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

@A7V2: your last edit summary came to and WP:3RR to me. I don't see anything wrong. That Note information had been left that way for such a long time, until yesterday. If you want to have it changed as well as make a change discuss it in talk page and get consensus. SSSB suggested it and let's wait and see different opininions. Island92 (talk) 12:14, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

The above is taken from my (SSSB's) talk page and discusses this edit. Following mutual agreement I have migrated the discussion here for increased opinion/output. SSSB (talk) 12:48, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

At the risk of sounding a bit thick, in 1994 we have:

Broker Sauber Mercedes Sauber Mercedes	Sauber-Mercedes	C13	Mercedes-Benz 2175B 3.5 V10	29	Karl Wendlinger	1–4
					Andrea de Cesaris	6–14
					JJ Lehto	15–16
				30	Heinz-Harald Frentzen	All

I appreciate the table is now formatted slightly differently, but with this in mind (and indeed, applies to Renault 2009 etc as well), can we not have...:

Scuderia Mission Winnow Ferrari Scuderia Ferrari Mission Winnow Scuderia Ferrari[a]	Ferrari	SF21	Ferrari 065/6	16 55	Charles Leclerc Carlos Sainz Jr.	1–17 1–17

Spa-Franks (talk) 15:36, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Purely personal opinion, but this is exactly why I was against having sponsors in the tables to begin with, going back to the last I remember discussing it back in 2013/14ish. Too much clutter just because the same four words are in a different order. But, for the sake of following the same rules, if it's in the official sources, then it should be here too. Twirly Pen (Speak ^up) 20:56, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with this. I've never understood why it was stopped and I can't find any discussion about it. I would be happy to return to listing all team names in the entry column.
5225_C (talk • contributions) 02:14, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I also see no problem with this. Someone a while back went out of their way to manually change 2009's Renault and 2011's Ferrari, HRT, and Force India. They all should be listed. Admanny (talk) 22:45, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Is the different positions of a sponsor in a team's name throughout a season actually of any encyclopedic value? Is it relevant for the readers of these articles? If not, I don't see the need to go ahead with a format that can quickly become quite messy, with 2-3-4 lines and a flag icon on each. Variations for specific Grands Prix can be placed in footnotes if needed. Ved havet (talk) 01:52, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I'd answer yes to that question. We're trying to show entries for the year. The team has entered under several different names. A reader could reasonably know the team as any one of those names. This specific case isn't radically different, but, for example, we had Haas in 2019 which was Rich Energy Haas F1 Team for two thirds of the season and then Haas F1 Team for the rest, a change which attracted a lot of attention. All entries are of equal importance, so I don't see why we shouldn't make this clear. I don't agree that it's messy either.
5225_C (talk • contributions) 02:05, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Mexico

Don't really know where else to post this, but why on Earth has nobody created "2021 Mexico City Grand Prix"? It is a plausible search term, and we are already done with FP1 and 2 at the time of writing. BMB YT 500000 (talk) 09:23, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Because no-one has gotten round to it. I will do it as soon as I've gone through all the things that demand my attention on my watchlist (which comes after breakfast). But you are more than welcome to beat me to it. SSSB (talk) 09:37, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the information. BMB YT 500000 (talk) 09:46, 6 November 2021 (UTC)