Talk:Traditionalist Catholicism

So, are traditional Catholics in the breakaway sense heretics? Schismatics? Wasn't LEfevre excommunicated? J Hofmann Kemp

From the point of view of the Roman Catholic Church (in union with Pope John Paul II) tradional Catholics in the narrow definition of the article are all Schismatics. Some of these groups would deny this - notwithstanding clear pronouncements by the Holy See, others would claim that much more the Roman Catholic Church (in union with Pope John Paul II) is schismatic from what they consider to be the true (Roman) Catholic Church.

Some of the tradional Catholic groups (narrow sense of the article) might also be heretic.

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Your (Jtdirl's) claim about the use of the term "novus ordo mass" also by its defenders is utterly baseless. You so far were not able to provide one single reference that the term "novus ordo mass" is used also by its defenders let alone by the Vatican.

The term "novus ordo mass" is never used by the Vatican, and I don't know of single quote where a theologian or bishop in union with Rome would use such a term. The catholic belief is that there is only one mass celebrated since apostolic times. What changed is the order of mass (Latin: ordo missae) not the mass. For this reason the term "novus ordo mass" is actually offensive for a catholic. I don't know how you can claim that neutralizing an offensive term (just indicating who might use it, not removing it) could be POV. To speak of the mass in the catholic church today as a novo ordo mass is definitely not neutral. Why do you insist on this non-neutral use of language?

And could you be so kind, before changing things back again to provide at least one example of a reliable source where somebody knowing theology and in union with Rome actually calls the mass as celebrated today a novus ordo mass?

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According to the Catholic Church, Novo Ordo is CORRECT. see talk page. Reverted.

1. The Catholic Church knows Latin better.
2. Again (the fourth time), the question is not about "novus ordo" (as in novus ordo missae = new order of mass) but about "novus ordo mass" or "new order mass".
3. If you want to tell us that something is "according to the Catholic Church" such and such you have to provide authorative teaching.

I spoke to the Dublin Diocesian Press Office about this issue recently (while I was checking some facts for another article). They said it is perfectly correct term to use. I was on to the Vatican Press Office on Thursday about something unrelated to wiki (I am working on something on the RC church right now, and in particular to do with marian apparitions). I mentioned this issue and they said "it is an often used and perfectly correct term." And Tridentine Mass is widely and universally used, including by a Vatican Press Release which I received four months ago in which they used it, explaining how permission has on occasion been given "for the celebration of the Tridentine Mass in preference to the celebration of the Novus Ordo Missæ in latin". But then I knew that both terms are perfectly acceptable and not in any possible way seen as POV. But your attempts to suggest they are POV when they are clearly not is unambiguously POV. So please stop doing so. FearÉIREANN 03:20 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

If it was "an often used and perfectly correct term" it should be easy for you - as I kindly asked you to do - "to provide at least one example of a reliable source where somebody knowing theology and in union with Rome actually calls the mass as celebrated today a novus ordo mass. (Of course publicly and checkable.) You did not provide a single one. (And BTW a Press Office is not a source for what "according the Catholic Church" is correct. It is not at all an authorative source.)