Talk:Armenian genocide

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@Firefangledfeathers: Does any journal can be considered as a reliable source? even it was a self-published source? @Kevo327: Why do you think that the secular committee of union and progress will care about Islamization? And why do you think that the Islamization can be considered as "attack"? --14:46, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

What leads you to believe that Kurt 2016 is self-published? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 15:03, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: I'm talking about the cited site, which can anyone publish on it. I have asked before about these sites here, and the answer was no, it is not allowed to cite a self-published sources. --Averroes 22 (talk) 15:23, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

kurt has listed all the primary sources he cited,this particular work is also cited by 36 different academic works, this is as reliable as it gets for me. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 16:48, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. Also, the journal is open-access, but that doesn't mean anyone can publish in the journal. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 16:55, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@Kevo327: So you can cite here the listed primary source, that would be better than cite a self-published source. Where are these academic works? --Averroes 22 (talk) 17:17, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Averroes 22, one of the key parts of your arguments seems to be that the CUP can't have pursued islamization policies because it was secular. My limited knowledge of the CUP suggests that it pursued both secular and islamist goals, and that it can't be described as solely secular. More importantly, forced islamization happened, and the fact of its occurrence is well-documented by reliable sources. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 18:11, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: I know, the forced islamization happened, but the purpose was to eradication of Armenian culture, so that writing "cultural assimilation" as what sources says would be better than "Islamization".

Even regimes whose goals are entirely Islamic, such as the regime of Abdul Hamid II, did not kill this number of Armenians, so why would regimes whose goals are also secular would kill this number? So if there were Islamic purposes that doesn't mean that they would kill all non-muslims in the empire. --Averroes 22 (talk) 18:57, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Akcam speaks of assimilation. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:31, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

And also of islamization. I am fine with discussing both, but someone would need to write up some content on cultural assimilation before I'd support a mention in the infobox. The stable version of the article had a well-sourced section in islamization and an appropriate mention of that in the infobox (with a link to Hidden Armenians). Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:36, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: But the purpose was to eradication of Armenian culture, not to increase Muslim population, the CUP with his secular purposes doesn't look very care about Islamization. Please read my comment up there again. --Averroes 22 (talk) 20:48, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• It did not suit the CUP's aims for Armenians to become Greek convert to the Greek Orthodox Church and start speaking Greek, but it was OK if they became Turks, Kurds, or Arabs. As Kurt states, the most important factor in losing Armenian identity was converting to Islam, and the CUP also saw identity in religious terms. I don't think that "cultural assimilation" would give the reader a better understanding of this process, the connotation of this word that it's a more or less voluntary process like immigrants to the US learning English. (t · c) buidhe 21:42, 8 August 2021 (UTC) I should add, at least one non-specialist reviewer of Akcam's book was confused by his usage of "assimilation" (see Peter Balakian's review). It's not incorrect terminology but it does have the potential to confuse the average reader. Also, just being open access journal does not mean it's self published. The journal has an editorial board staffed by legitimate academics so it can't be considered self-published. (t · c) buidhe 21:54, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@Buidhe: There is no doubt that the goal behind this process is the loss of the Armenian identity, and not for religious reasons, because the Committee of Union and Progress was essentially secular. I don't think that "cultural assimilation" would not understand correctly here, and you look don't understand what "cultural assimilation" mean, surly the fact that the immigrants to the US will learn English doesn't mean that they will completely lose their culture, and also there are people who learn English out of US. The presence of an editorial board does not mean that it is not considered a self-published source, for example, the ScienceDaily have an editorial board, but this doesn't mean that isn't a self-published source here. --Averroes 22 (talk) 22:53, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

ScienceDaily is a press release aggregator, which means it publishes press releases without editing. I don't see how that's at all relevant to the reliability of a published scientific journal. (t · c) buidhe 00:01, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Buidhe: You look don't understand well, ScienceDaily is a journal source and it's publishing a very similar scientific articles with this source, and it's claim to have an editorial board, and it's also an open access (which means that it is self-published) journal. What do you mean by "without editing"? --Averroes 22 (talk) 00:45, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I encourage you to drop this line of argument. If you have serious reasons to doubt the reliability of the Kurt source, you might open up a thread at WP:RSN, though I recommend against it. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 01:17, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: I have already open up a very similar thread here, but the answer is no, it's not allowed to cite a self-published source. Also, I don't see that we have reached a dead-end (A long argument without agreement) yet, my comment is above, you can respond to it. --Averroes 22 (talk) 01:44, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

ScienceDaily is a press release aggregator, Études arméniennes contemporaines is not. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 01:55, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: Any evidence? Even assuming that's true, so what? How this could provides the fact that the Études arméniennes contemporaines is "not" a self-published source. --Averroes 22 (talk) 02:05, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Procedure for selecting papers: "Études arméniennes contemporaines is a peer-reviewed academic journal. Each submitted paper is anonymously reviewed by two experts, members of the editorial board, the scientific board, or external researchers. Reviewers are selected on the basis of their expertise in the given topic." Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:16, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: How this could provides the fact that the Études arméniennes contemporaines is "not" a self-published source, or a press release aggregator? ScienceDaily nearly say the same thing about itself here and here. --Averroes 22 (talk) 02:35, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Neither of those links suggest that ScienceDaily conducts peer-review of submissions. Also, please stop pinging me; I am paying attention to this discussion. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:39, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

You look don't read it well, it says: especially those tied to a peer-reviewed journal article. --Averroes 22 (talk) 02:52, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

From your link: "Please note that we cannot guarantee posting of all the releases we receive, since we try to select those which we think would be of most interest to our readers. Basically, that means any new research finding (especially those tied to a peer-reviewed journal article)..."

This is saying that they especially like to publish findings in peer-reviewed journals. This statement implies that ScienceDirect itself is not conducting any peer review. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:00, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Why do you think that ScienceDaily itself should conducting peer review? --Averroes 22 (talk) 03:07, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't. The fact that ScienceDaily doesn't conduct peer review is one of the things that distinguishes it from Études. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:12, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

It's not a big difference, it doesn't make a big difference if the site reviews by itself or based on the reviews of other sites. It may make a difference if you succeed in proving that the review performed by the site itself will be better than the reviews of other sites. --Averroes 22 (talk) 03:32, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I think it's a big difference: publications with editorial boards and a peer-review process are not venues of self-publication. You brought up ScienceDirect as a possible counterexample, but ScienceDirect does not have any peer-review process.

I worry that I am repeating myself, which is often a sign that I should back away from a discussion. I am going to do so. If anyone besides Averroes 22 has reliability concerns about Études Arméniennes Contemporaines, or the Kurt article specifically, I would be happy to hear about them. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:55, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: It makes no difference, on both sides, the published content is reviewed, regardless of who reviewed it, and ScienceDaily says that it's publishing the already peer-reviewed content. It seems that you have no evidence to prove what you are saying, can you give me evidence? Also, I will ask, why do you think that the site should conduct the peer-review by itself? --Averroes 22 (talk) 13:49, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: No issues whatsoever. It's crystal clear. I have no idea what Averroes is talking about. Dr. Vogel (talk) 22:35, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: @Kevo32: @Averroes 22: Forced Islamisation? How about Forced Turkification or Forced Sunnification? The official religious sect of Ottoman Caliphate and empire was Sunni Islam, which is central to Turkish nationalism, it's the same Sunni Caliphate that Shia killing ISIS wanted to revive. Were Shia Muslims involved in the genocide? It looks like all Islam is being stereotyped as being one and the same? I remember reading that Shia majority Iran does not deny the genocide, and they did took in a steady stream of Armenian refugees during the world war. That leaves Shia Azeri Turks. What was their involvement of any? Nolicmahr (talk) 23:25, 22 August 2021 (UTC) @Kevo327: FYI see comment above Nolicmahr (talk) 23:27, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Nolicmahr, I see 'Turkification' and 'cultural assimilation' in a similar light for this article: I would love to see more discussion of the ways in which they were a part of the genocide. For now, I'd oppose 'Sunnification', not having seen it mentioned in reliable sources. Have you found some? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 04:49, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

forced islamisation is the correct term here (in my opinion), because the context is that women were forced into islam for marriage, so Turkification is invalid, and about suunification I agree with Firefangledfeathers. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 10:29, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

"forced islamisation is the correct term here (in my opinion)" - your opinion is not relevant. what is relevant is the wording that sources use. That is not an "in my opinion", it is policy. However, it is in my opinion that every few years a new set of idiots come to this page to endlessly argue the toss about small bits of nothing. Whatever the result the overall article remains the same mess it has always been. 78.149.46.96 (talk) 22:49, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

For the record, Islamization did include some Armenians who were assimilated by Shias in the Ottoman Empire (eg. Alevis in Dersim). It is fair to note that Iran was opposed to killings by Ottoman agents on its territory, however, that is more relevant to the Assyrian genocide than this article. (t · c) buidhe 03:53, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Date and Number of Deaths

Wikipedia’s own article List of genocides by death toll states that the Armenian Genocide lasted from 1915 to 1922. Compare these dates with the dates shown in the infobox of the current article, 1915-1917. The same Wikipedia article provides estimates for the number of Armenians killed, RANGING from 600,000 to 1,500,000. Compare this RANGE with the rounded-up figure of “around one million” in the lede of the current article. This information has been provided as a courtesy to (t · c) buidhe.98.231.157.169 (talk) 18:22, 14 September 2021 (UTC)Davidian

Please also note that in the same Wikipedia's own article List of genocides by death toll, the location of the Armenian Genocide is given as “territories of present-day Turkey, Syria and Iraq”, and not “eastern Anatolia,” as in the current article.98.231.157.169 (talk) 18:50, 14 September 2021 (UTC)Davidian

• courtesy pinging buidhe. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 23:18, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

A courtesy perusal of the numerous talk archive pages would also be in order. The numbers subject has been talked to death and supposedly settled years ago. Who is now trying to make this corpse walk again? And why? 78.149.46.96 (talk) 22:52, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Please show evidence as to how and which numbers have been “settled” years ago. Genocide scholars, historians, international lawyers, interest groups etc., are still debating them. Also, no one here is trying to make "the corpse" walk "again" (?!). Contributors point out to the inacceptability of ROUNDING UP the numbers in the lede instead of providing THE RANGE. Feel the difference?98.231.157.169 (talk) 18:30, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Davidian

The CONTENT and WORDING of material related to this in THIS article was argued over and settled years ago. Genocide scholars, historians, international lawyers, interest groups etc, did not write a word of this article. They wrote the sources that were used to settle the content and wording. But it seems this article's current batch of Big Men on the Block want to forget all about that. And I suppose, 3 or 4 years down the line, a new batch of editors will discard all these new discussions, and rehash it all yet again. 78.149.46.96 (talk) 02:38, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Would someone please restore this content

https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Armenian_genocide&diff=prev&oldid=1020853582 This edit, done without a proper explanation, and which deleted sourced content, removed mention of an important historical event. The 1965 Yerevan demonstrations made a significant crack in the Soviet ideology of that time that buried the genocide behind explanations that it was all a capitalist plot or euphemisms that it was a minor event in the "war between neighbouring peoples". It led to subsequent events like the demands for unification with Nagorno Karabakh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.46.96 (talk) 01:22, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

The text removed in that diff was later re-added and is in the current version of the article. (t · c) buidhe 03:32, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

who did armenian genocide? ottoman empire or turkish nationalist movement and turkey government? or both?

ok, we agree there is genocide.. also ottoman empire did it.. ok.. but, did really turkish nationalist movement and turkey DIRECTLY killed armenian civilians? ottomans did that, but there is no info about "turkish(not ottoman) authorities killed armenians" or "turkish warriors killed armenians".. can you show me where it is? my english bad, sorry Modern primat (talk) 21:06, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi Modern primat, this article is about the actions of the Ottoman government/CUP during WWI and especially 1915-1916. Later killings and ethnic cleansing during Turkish War of Independence and/or by the post-1923 Turkish government is usually treated as a separate event in scholarly sources. (t · c) buidhe 21:39, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

hello, please answer, i will not start discuss, i just need answers. did REPUBLIC of turkey(starting from 1919 with Kemâl Atatürk) killed armenian civilians like ottoman empire? thank you user:buidhe .... Modern primat (talk) 21:44, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Exactly like the Ottoman Empire? Not exactly, since Turkish nationalists did not control the Arab Levant and were dealing with exponentially fewer Armenians living in the "wrong" places. They did kill Armenian civilians, see Battle of Marash for example, and there were major continuities between Ottoman and Turkish Nationalists in their treatment of non-Muslim civilians. I suggest the chapter "The Final Phase: The Cleansing of Armenian and Greek Survivors (1919–1922)" in this book. (t · c) buidhe 22:47, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Exactly like - for some yes, except that there were less around to be killed by then. And some of those that had come back under the protection of French forces remained under their protection for a while, and were able to offer armed resistance in some places. But this is not a Q&A forum. The Armenian Genocide is recognised as lasting until 1923. 78.149.46.96 (talk) 16:15, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

wait, you answered as yes. still, was it like ottoman empire or not? Modern primat (talk) 22:05, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Republic of Turkey only began to exist in 1923, years after the end of WWI. The Armenian Genocide described in the article happened in WW I. I hope this answers your question. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 23:13, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

And of course not a single Turkish Nationalist was active before 1923. 78.149.46.96 (talk) 02:30, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

islamophobia

I do not know what Islam has to do with a genocide committed by nationalists. This is Islamophobia and racism. I do not find anyone accusing Christianity of exterminating the indigenous population and the Holocaust and the massacres of Circassians. If Islam wanted to eliminate the Armenians, it would have done so in the Rashidun Caliphate Romeo778 (talk) 16:29, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

The page does not seem to claim that these were Islamic attacks or some such, it often talks about "forcibly converted to Islam" etc. How do you wish to improve the page? Dushan Jugum (talk) 19:24, 20 November 2021 (UTC)