Talk:Riboflavin

Template:Vital article

needed to make FAD

There was a question previously if riboflavin was necessary for the synthesis of FAD in all living cells. Looking at the structure of riboflavin, and then flavin mononucleotide, and then FAD, I see no way around it. Even if riboflavin is not an essential additive in species X, they'll have to synthesize riboflavin to be able to make FAD. David M

Beriberi

I believe beriberi is the result of a B1 defficiency, not B2... According to [1], "deficiency syndromes are characterized by sore throat, swelling of mucous membranes, mouth and/or lip sores, anemia, and dermatitis" - this doesn't sound like beriberi to me. Of course, I could be wrong - I'm not a doctor. User:nyh

After a lot of time with what I believe is a wrong fact (the beriberi connection) in the text, I decided to mark this as a factual dispute. I hope that someone can help me verify the correct fact. Nyh 08:53, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• You're right, it's wrong. Beriberi is caused by thiamine deficiency. A riboflavin deficiency doesn't have any "disease" name to go with it, probably because it almost invariably occurs in combination with deficiencies of other water-soluble vitamins. == Nunh-huh 08:58, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriberi also shows it is B1 and not B2. Bryan 13:28, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

GM?

The author has left me wondering what GM stands for in the sentence: "In processed foods it is very likely to be GM ..." I would have edited the article to make it less vague, except I am hardly an authority on biochemestry.

It stands for Genetically Modified, I believe; meaning it is produced by an engineered bacteria. However, I'm not sure this is the best way to word that paragraph (and we need to clarify and wikilink something there). I'm not sure how to improce it either.RJFJR 01:22, Feb 12, 2005 (UTC)

Bright yellow urine

I added a comment on this, I hope it's cool.

E101?

The designation "E101" appears twice in the article, but with no reference. I'm curious what it means. Anastrophe 05:23, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Florescence,

I think a comment on the “bright yellow color” actually showing florescence under black light should be added. This fact shows why this vitamin is used as a food additive (Because of it’s nutritional value, and it’s effectiveness as a natural dye)

Deficiency

"it is thought deficiency is common"

By whom? This needs a reference cited. Very doubtful it is correct, especially in Western countries.

Added clarification and reference. Mild deficiency common in third world countries that do not have grain fortification policies; uncommon in U.S. and Europe. Data for the U.S. from NHANES and WWEIA.David notMD (talk) 17:02, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Contradiction

There seems to be a contradiction: the first sentence states that Riboflavin is easily absorbed, and water soluble, the last paragraph says that it is not, and is secreted in urin (turning it bright yellow) and is difficult to deliver in water as it is insoluble!? any citation on this would be insightful.

this contradiction was added on March 23, 2004 if you look in the history

IS water soluble, but less so compared to other B vitamins. If not water soluble, would not turn up in urine! Commercially, most products are fortified foods (flour, bread, pasta) and tablet or capsule dietary supplements, so solubility problem sidestepped.David notMD (talk) 17:06, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Overdose?

It's good to have a section discussing overdose conditions and symptoms in any page discussing a 'healthy vitamin'. If anyone has this information it'd be good to place it here.

Now covered under Toxicity. Riboflavin is considered non-toxic for the reasons given (increasingly poor absorption as dose is increased; efficient excretion by kidneys into urine; lack of identified adverse effects).David notMD (talk) 19:51, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Factual discrepancies and errors

There seem to be a couple of factual discrepancies on this article. Some of the statements that are made, e.g. "Vitamin B2 is also required for red blood cell formation and respiration, antibody production, and for regulating human growth and reproduction. It is essential for healthy skin, nails, hair growth and general good health, including regulating thyroid activity," are not substantiated in the reference cited, and some other statements, e.g. "Any excess is excreted in the urine, frequently imparting a bright yellow color," seem to contain factual errors. Not being a biochemist myself, I don't feel confident making substantial changes, but are those statements valid? Katechen 20:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

simple wikipedia

Comment by User:96.230.31.114 moved from article:

Riboflavin was on the Nutrition facts of our Life Cereal box, we didn't know what it was, and decided to look it up. We still don't understand what it is.

I "translated" the page: simple:Riboflavin. I hope this helps. --Slashme 14:09, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

serum test

It's stated that measuring erythrocyte glutathione reductase reports on riboflavin levels. Any further comment/info on this? I have no reason to think it's incorrect, but it's clearly an indirect assay (presumably used in a standard clinical setting where more specialised analytical equipment is inappropriate?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.198.148.173 (talk) 20:54, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

sreyhsegaef dvb Dg i dont no —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.66.92.50 (talk) 13:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Vitamin G

Vitamin G redirects here. It should be mentioned, or better explained, in the article.--Srleffler (talk) 05:46, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Confusing infos all over the places....

• http://www.nicnas.gov.au/Industry/AICS/ViewChemical.asp?SingleHit=1&Chemical_Id=3685&docVer=
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavin_mononucleotide
• http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/newsroom/publications/choosingtherightstuff/foodadditivesnumeric1680.cfm

--222.67.219.51 (talk) 04:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

• http://www.food-info.net/uk/e/e100-200.htm

--58.38.43.199 (talk) 05:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a point, other than that you're confused? Yappy2bhere (talk) 00:01, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Feb 2016: Text added in various places in attempt to make content clearer for people without a science background.David notMD (talk) 12:44, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

outside from text

This is outside from text: {{Chembox Hazards poop| FlashPt= Palapa (talk) 23:04, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. The vandalism has been fixed.--Srleffler (talk) 06:08, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

How get image to show where wanted

The Image:Riboflavinspectra.jpg specified in the middle of the discovery section shows (eg. in Firefox and IE) no higher than the bottom of the infobox, which if the browser window is wide can be two sections lower. Do other users see this problems, and if so how do we fix it ? - Rod57 (talk) 23:36, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't see the problem. Where is it that you want this image to be, vs. where it shows up for you? SBHarris 00:08, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

It is specified in the middle of the Discovery section which is where it would be logical and useful for it to be displayed; but if my browser window is wide it actually appears 2 sections lower so that the top of the image aligns with the bottom of the main infobox on the right. - Rod57 (talk) 23:18, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

But the spectra is a left thumb so I can't figure out how it gets to the right side of your display, where the infobox is. That doesn't happen on mine. Under the infobox on my display is the photo of fluorescent riboflavin solution in plastic tube. SBHarris 00:06, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Deficiency cancer?

The statement, "Riboflavin deficiency has been implicated in cancer,[15]" is not supported by the paper given in the footnote. The paper presents a complex situation regarding riboflavin and cancer. It only suggests that riboflavin deficiency may increase carcogenicity in a very narrow situation. In other cases the situation is more complex. The statement misrepresents the content of the paper. I suggest that it be removed. 7802mark (talk) 01:33, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree, and did so. The cancer reference in question was a speculative review from 1973. A search on more recent science lit did not find support for riboflavin deficiency increasing risk of any types of cancer.David notMD (talk) 05:17, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Dietary Reference Intakes

I am creating the same format for DRIs for all B vitamins. That is a U.S.- based system that identifies Estimated Average Requirements (EARs), Recommended Dietary Allowances (RDAs), Adequate Intakes (AIs) if there is not enough information to establish EARs and RDAs, and Tolerable Upper Intake Levels (ULs). Another major regulatory agency that has established ULs is the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA). ULs for both are provided, as they often differ. If there is a UL (for some vitamins none has been determined) then rationale is covered in a Toxicity section. In addition to DRIs, the U.S. also established Daily Value, using it on food and dietary supplement labels as % DV. DVs were revised in May 2016. What I have written can be improved. It lacks EFSA or other major country RDAs. It lacks an estimate of what percentages of people are deficient - although that is often covered in a separate section on deficiency and consequences of deficiency. I am creating this Subject in all of the Talk pages of the vitamin and mineral entries I have edited. Comments and improvements are welcome. David notMD (talk) 14:13, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Changed section title to Dietary recommendations because Dietary Reference Intakes is used only in U.S. and Canada; added European information, with citations. David notMD (talk) 12:56, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Biosynthesis?

Shouldn't this article include a section on biosynthesis? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.231.248 (talk) 17:58, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Why have mention of pricing?

In looking at the leads for all of the vitamins, most have no mention of cost. Would these articles be better if none mentioned cost? Or if all used the same source? Vitamin C states 3-7 cents per 100 mg tablet, referenced to: International Drug Price Indicator Guide. Management Sciences for Health, Arlington, VA. 2016. Folate and Vitamin B1 cite the same source, but the hyperlinks do not work. Vitamins B1 and B2 reference a text without a hyperlink [Hamilton, Richart (2015). Tarascon Pocket Pharmacopoeia 2015 Deluxe Lab-Coat Edition. Jones & Bartlett Learning. p. 230. ISBN 9781284057560.] which appears to apply to hospital prescription pricing, as the costs are far higher than vitamin supplement pricing. My preference is for no mention of cost. David notMD (talk) 10:45, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

How much medications cost, especially those on the WHO List of Essential Medicines is important with respect to global health. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:15, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Discovery

The article currently has "Riboflavin was discovered in 1920" but it does not mention where it was discovered. I have local notes that state "milk" which did not help me much because... what type of milk? I assume cow milk. Anyway, could the main article please also mention in what TYPE of milk it was discovered? 2A02:8388:1603:CB00:3AD5:47FF:FE18:CC7F (talk) 11:18, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Review of entire article for consideration of upgrading to B-class

Checking refs, replacing very old refs with newer, ordering sections to be in sync with other vitamin articles, etc., as attempt to improve article so that it can be considered for upgrade to B-class. David notMD (talk) 18:41, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Prep for GA nomination

Preparing article for GA nomination. All help welcome.

This will be my ninth effort to raise a vitamin to GA. If this succeeds, that will leave vitamin B1, A, D and E. I dread tackling vitamin D because of its existing length and high level of ongoing editing. David notMD (talk) 13:29, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Replacing old refs when possible, and removing refs that are not WP:MEDRS. David notMD (talk) 09:43, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Diagnosis subsection refs are all old and all clinical trials, some quite small (n=6)!, so replacing with use of newer review refs if possible. David notMD (talk) 20:09, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Causes subsection being updated and enlarged. Removed mention of several diseases or diet patterns or medications as causing low riboflavin, as literature searches did not confirm. David notMD (talk) 11:56, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Absorption, metabolism and excretion section being updated and enlarged. David notMD (talk) 12:36, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Sources table added from USDA website. David notMD (talk) 17:50, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Functions section

This edit replaced the previous version, here which was a bullet list with no sources. I used the NIH, LPI, and PubChem sources as main references, which are general, comprehensive, and plainly-written for a section with considerable underlying biochemistry (WP:NOTTEXTBOOK). Further editing may benefit from use of the LPI source which is a comprehensive review of riboflavin mainly in student-friendly language (I have no affiliation). Zefr (talk) 18:10, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Nominated to GA review

Some work still needed, but consider it close enough to nominate for Good Article review. All editors welcome to help improve the article. David notMD (talk) 13:12, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Riboflavin/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: RoySmith (talk · contribs) 21:00, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm starting this review now.

Lead

• REDUCED FROM SIX REFS TO THREE IN LEAD Per MOS:LEADCITE, most (if not all) of the references in the lead should be moved into the main body of the article.

What's special about those three? WP:LEDE says you only should have citations in the lede for "material that is challenged or likely to be challenged", which doesn't seem to be the case here. The idea of the lede is that it's an easy-to-read introduction. Unnecessary citations just make it more difficult to read.

• PREFER NOT TO WIKILINK HERE Link coenzyme, and possibly also flavin mononucleotide, and flavin adenine dinucleotide. If you link of these, you'll probably need to rearrange the wording to avoid the WP:SEAOFBLUE problem.

Why do you not want to link it here? It's the logical place; the first time it's used in the article.

OK LINKED IN LEAD, UNLINKED IN FUNCTIONS. David notMD (talk) 16:20, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

• DONE "milk and other dairy products" can be simplified to just "dairy products".
• DONE Overall, I think the lead dives into detail a bit more than it needs to. I'm not sure where to tighten it up, but take a look and see if you can trim some of the less important material. "although it does occur in time of chronic or acute under-nutrition" could probably go. Likewise, "and have essential roles in"
• DONE At the same time you're cutting material, I think it would also be good to mention some of the major physical properties, such as it being a water-soluble yellow-orange crystalline powder. And once you mention that, then "In the European Union, riboflavin powder is designated as a yellow-orange food additive." could be reduced to just "it is used as a food coloring".

Definition

• REMOVED QUOTES FOR FLAVIN Why is flavin in quotes, but not ribose?

• EEEEK! Removed that sentence. Intestinal bacteria are known to synthesize some vitamins, but never in amounts sufficient to meet requirements. Regardless, discussion of that does not belong in Definition. I will circle back to add more appropriate content to Definition. The fact that it's produced by bacteria in the gut seems at odds with its designation as a vitamin, which I understand to be something which you need to ingest because you can't make yourself. I guess this comes down to whether your gut bacteria is part of "yourself". So, do you get some directly from digesting vegetables that you eat, and then your gut bacteria produce more of it? This could use a better explanation.
  • DEFINITION EXPANDED A BIT. David notMD (talk) 16:21, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Functions

• DONE, ALSO 'CELL RESPIRATION' link metabolism (or maybe energy metabolism).

• I don't get the "Riboflaven is essential for the metabolism of ... circulating toxins and drugs". The other things listed are all specific classes of chemical compounds, so it makes sense that there would be a common factor in their metabolism. But toxins and drugs are broad general terms and they don't fit into any specific class of chemical structures. Maybe it should be "... certain types of toxins and drugs", or "... XXX type of toxins and YYY-class drugs"?
  • EEEEK! The sentence in the reference is "These coenzymes play major roles in energy production; cellular function, growth, and development; and metabolism of fats, drugs, and steroids [1-3]." No mention of toxins. The references are to books (most recent dated 2014) I do not have. First step is to remove mention of steroids, circulating toxins and drugs. Second step will be to search for journal literature that meets WP:MEDRS and elaborates on ribolflavin roles for those claims. David notMD (talk) 19:01, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

• DONE "circulating levels of the amino acid, homocysteine", drop the comma. Or maybe drop the "amino acid" too. There's a link; you can click through to Homocysteine amd the first sentence tells you its an amino acid.

Redox reactions

• "Redox reactions are cellular processes...", well, yeah, they are, but "cellular process" is much too specifc. Redox reactions occur all over the place, outside of cells. Maybe it's OK the way it is, but think about other ways that might be phrased.

• Combine that single-sentence paragraph into the preceding paragraph. It sounds stilted to start two consecutive sentences with "FAD...". How about, "It also catalyzes the activity..."
  • COMPLETELY REVISED, based on description in Present Knowledge in Nutrition (2020). David notMD (talk) 18:50, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Biosynthesis

• NO IMPROVEMENT POSSIBLE I copied the pathway from an existing article. Please recommend either leaving as is or deleting. I favor deleting. The pathway diagrams are poor quality, and barely legible. I know this is a big request, but they really should be redrawn better.

I'm in a quandry here. Having the diagrams improves the article, but these aren't useful in their current state. WP:GACR doesn't require that the images be legible, so I can't really insist, but let's say I'll enthusiastically encourage producing better versions of these. I reject the idea of "NO IMPROVEMENT POSSIBLE". I think what you're trying to say is "It's more work than I'm willing to invest", no?

See Special:Diff/1055955113

How about "IMPROVEMENT DIFFICULT FOR ME"? I have never attempted to create a chemical diagram of any type. I added this synthesis pathway because it was available from another Wikipedia article, but in thinking about article readers, my opinion now is that the text description is sufficient as long as there is the reference to Present Knowledge in Nutrition, which has an excellent synthesis diagram on page 193 and text on page 195-196. David notMD (talk) 12:45, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

See the discussion I linked to on WT:WikiProject Chemistry. I looks like you could just drop in File:Riboflavin Synthase Mechanism.png and that would be a significant improvement. I'd suggest inserting it as a right|thumb image so it doesn't take up so much space.

Never mind, I've taken care of it.

• DELETING Mech 4.jpg would end this problem. Also, File:Mech 4.jpg and File:Riboflavin.svg show the structure reversed left-to-right from each other, which made it difficult for me to understand until I realized this. Is there any standard for how to orient a structure drawing to eliminate this sort of confusion? Or do people just deal with it?

The biosynthesis section is well below GA standard and lacks detailed reliable sources. I re-wrote an article Biosynthesis of Vitamin B12 when the main vitamin B12 article was up for GA review in 2020 and I'm happy to assist here: riboflavin's biosynthesis is simple compared to B12 and can probably be covered within the main article: see this typical detailed reference. I can also (re)do any required chemical structures/pathways as .svg files. Please use my Talk Page for specific requests. as I'll leave it to others involved to decide how the article should be structured.. Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:46, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@Michael D. Turnbull thank you for your comments. I have a basic understanding of biochemisty but I'm not a subject matter expert, and I'm certainly not familiar with the biochemistry literature. I see that Zefr made some improvements to the references, but your comment looks like it came after those edits and you still see problems. So what I'm going to do is put this review on hold and let you folks work on the referencing issue and ping me what that's been resolved. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:42, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@RoySmith: I've redone the biosynthesis section with what I'd consider would be appropriate in a good article. Feel free to tweak the details. I note that the article uses Pubchem as its source in multiple places. You need to be aware that Pubchem is a database and not fully reliable. It would be better to drill down to the actual journal (or other) references which Pubchem is citing rather than leave it to readers here to work out what they are. Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:14, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

@Michael D. Turnbull, thanks. @David notMD I haven't had a chance to come back to this in detail yet, but I agree with Mike; using the more specific direct source would be an improvement. You could start working on that until I get a chance to get back to this. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:36, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Chemical properties

• CHANGED PER SUGGESTION "It is soluble in water and sodium chloride solutions". I looked up the reference, it also talks about being soluble in absolute ethanol. Would it be reading too much into this to say, "It is soluble in polar solvents, such as water and aqueous sodium chloride solutions, and to a lesser extent, absolute ethanol"? Likewise, generalizing about non-polar solvents, which would include the lipids mentioned, plus others in the reference.

Dietary recommendations

• I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE REQUESTING " The current EARs for riboflavin ..." -> "{{as of}}, the EARs for riboflavin..."

The problem with saying "currently" is that it's time sensitive. The NAM could change their recommendations tomorrow, and then the "currently..." statement will no longer be true. The {{as of}} template expands into some appropriate wording, and also puts the article in a maintenance category to make it easier to keep these statements up to date.

Ah ha! Removed word "current" before EARs. The preceding sentence makes clear that the last update was 1998. David notMD (talk) 12:30, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

You still want to use {{as of}} because it puts the article in Category:All articles containing potentially dated statements which is useful for maintenance purposes. You can use the alt= parameter if the default wording doesn't work. For example, you might do {{as of|1998|alt=The EARs}}. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:47, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I PUT IN 'As of' David notMD (talk) 16:26, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Absorption, metabolism, excretion

• CHANGED TO "amounts" "treated with pharmacological amount of riboflavin", amount --> amounts. Or maybe "a" before "pharmacological"?

Diagnosis and assessment

• DELETED " Riboflavin deficiency is also known as ariboflavinosis." this is already stated in an earlier section.

Well, that's a first pass. I'll take a break for now and come back to this later.

Ping me when you're done working through all of these comments. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:48, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

RoySmith I am done working through these comments. (Sent you a note yesterday, but wanted to have one on this page, also). David notMD (talk) 09:25, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I'll try to get back to this today. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:36, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

In the interim I will look at Mike T's changes to the article. David notMD (talk) 17:50, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

2nd pass

Looking over the whole article again, here's what I see:

• In the tables that accompany "Dietary recommendations", what does "ND" mean? I'm guessing it means "No Data", in which case, why have the column at all? Also, there's no need to say "Infants" in "Infants 0-6 months" (likewise 6-12 months).
  • REMOVED COLUMN AND "INFANTS" ALSO FIXED TABLE ERRORS David notMD (talk) 22:53, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
• In "Sources", link "Department of Agriculture".
  • DONE David notMD (talk) 22:54, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
• Also in Sources, I don't think the big three-part table adds much to the article. The deeper issue is that I don't see how to correlate this with the cited source. It's a database. I haven't been able to figure out how to even query it to verify the values given in the table. If you put "Riboflavin (mg)" in the "Search by Component" box, you get a ton of entries back ("Currently showing page 1 of 1838 total pages") which isn't useful as a reference. The description you give doesn't even match the data. You say, "rounded to nearest tenth of a milligram for columns 1 & 2", but you've got entries like "0.25-0.4". The column headings say "per 100 grams", but entries like "one cup" are clearly not 100g. Not to mention the odd mix of imperial and metric units.
  • A THREE-COLUMN TABLE OF FOOD SOURCE EXAMPLES HAS BEEN ADDED TO ALL OTHER VITAMIN ARTICLES that I have raised to GA without challenge from the reviewers not subsequent criticism from editors. I am in process of removing mention of rounding to nearest tenth of milligram and will instead post the numbers as they appear in the source document. As to using the source document, the method I used was to use Food Search SR Legacy Foods, rather than Composition Search. I have changed the ref URL accordingly. David notMD (talk) 23:25, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

I will address these. David notMD (talk) 02:26, 24 November 2021 (UTC) COMPLETED 28 Nov 2021

• One other thing I noticed, what's a "lipid solvent". Does that mean this can disolve in lipds? Or can disolve in something that disolves lipids? I see the term used in the literature (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/bit.260280221), but we don't have a lipid solvent article to link to. The place that looks like it's linking there is really linking to lipid and to solvent as two links (see WP:SEAOFBLUE). This could use some clarification.
  • "lipid" removed as adjective for solvent. David notMD (talk) 11:49, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Failed review

This has been on hold for 7 days and it doesn't look like any progress is being made on the issues pointed out above, so I've marked this as having failed the GA review. Once the issues have been addressed, it can be re-submitted for another review. -- RoySmith (talk) 22:01, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

For the record, review started 15 Nov, all first pass queries were addressed by 21 Nov. Second set of queries posted 24 Nov, then GA review "Failed" without any attempt to contact me, on 27 Nov. I completed all requested changes in the second set of queries by 28 Nov and resubmitted. David notMD (talk) 22:42, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Riboflavin/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mertbiol (talk · contribs) 18:04, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

I will take on this review. Here are some comments on the first half and I will add some more later. Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 18:04, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

General

• Please ensure that all apostrophes are of the straight type, rather than the curved type (see MOS:APOSTROPHE).
  • Done 11-29-21

Lead

• I suggest changing "consumed as a dietary supplement" in the first sentence to "sold as a dietary supplement" or "taken as a dietary supplement".
  • Done 11-30-21
• I suggest changing "involved in the metabolism of other vitamins" in the fourth sentence to "required for the metabolism of other vitamins", to avoid repetition of "involved in".
  • Done 11-30-21
• I suggest changing the em-dash in the fourth sentence before "folate, vitamin B6..." to "such as" or "including" OR delete "other vitamins", so that the sentence reads "The coenzymes are also required for the metabolism of niacin, vitamin B6, and folate."
  • Done 11-29-21
• I am not convinced that the fourth sentence is sufficiently likely to be challenged for reference [4] to be included in the lead.
  • Done 11-30-21
    • No, this was not done Reference [4] is still in the lead. Please remove it. Mertbiol (talk) 14:41, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
• In the final sentence of the first paragraph, I suggest replacing "used medicinally as a prescription drug" with "prescribed"
  • Done 11-29-21
• I suggest rewording the second sentence of the second paragraph so that it reads "Some countries require the addition of riboflavin to grains." (You need to make clear what "its" refers to.)
  • Done 11-29-21
• I suggest combining the third and fourth sentences of the second paragraph to read: "Riboflavin deficiency is rare and is usually treated using supplements, which may be given orally or by injection."
  • Not done 11-29-21 Instead, sentences of second paragrapy re-ordered. (FYI: If by injection, would be a prescription drug, not a supplement.)
• I think that your use of "well-tolerated" is not sufficiently well explained in the lead - are the supplements well tolerated (in which case you need a reference to say this in the main body - I can't see one) or are you referring to the tolerable upper intake level?
  • Removed "well-tolerated" 11-29-21 and reworded sentence. Safety/tolerance is not an important enough topic to be included in the Lead
  • Done 11-29-21 In contect of UL, text in Lead changed to be clear
• Please link [[clearance (pharmacology)|excreted in urine]].
  • Done 11-29-21
• I suggest adding a sentence on the biosynthesis and industrial synthesis of riboflavin to the lead.
  • Done 11-29-21 Added to end of Lead
• Please link [[food coloring|coloring agent]] in the final sentence of the lead.
  • Done 11-29-21

Definition

• I suggest deleting the second sentence, as you have covered the biosynthesis in depth in a later section.
  • Done 11-29-21
• Please link vitamer, flavin mononucleotide and flavin adenine dinucleotide.
  • Done 11-30-21
• Please introduce the abbreviations FMN and FAD in this section.
  • Done and done 11-29-21, but have left the wikilinking and abbreviation creations existing elsewhere if you agree that the Definition section can be deleted (my query on your Talk page)
    • Definition stayed 11-29-21 so wikilinking and abbrev creations elsewhere in the article removed, and FMN and FAD used rather than spelling out the words
• In the final sentence, please explain where you would find FMN and FAD in a 10% to 90% ratio - is this in a typical animal cell, in a mammalian cell, in a bacterial cell, in all cells?
  • Not done 11-29-21 The reference states 10% and 90% but provides no information about in animals, plants, bacteria. I am thinking animal cells, but looking elsewhere for a new ref.
    • Done 11-29-21. Found better information and refs at Flavin adenine dinucleotide

Functions

• As you will have introduced the abbreviations FMN and FAD in the definitions section, please remove the full names from this section.
  • Done 12-1-21
• I suggest deleting "synthesize" from the phrase "conversion of tryptophan to synthesize niacin"
  • Done 12-1-21
• I suggest rephrasing "including coded for in archeal, bacterial and fungal genomes" to read "including coded for in archaea, bacteria and fungi".
  • Done 12-1-21
• Please replace "interconverted among" with "converted between"
  • Done 12-1-21
• I suggest replacing "FAD also catalyzes the activity of glutathione reductase..." with "FAD is also required for glutathione reductase activity"
  • Done 12-1-21
• In the first paragraph of the "Micronutrient metabolism" section, I suggest replacing the em dashes surrounding "5,10-methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase" with commas.
  • Done 12-1-21
• I suggest deleting "essential dietary mineral" before "iron" to avoid repetition of "essential"
  • Done 12-1-21

Synthesis

• Please use the abbreviations FMN and FAD in the final sentence of the "Biosynthesis" section.
  • Done 11-29-21
• A hyphen is required in "industrial-scale production".
  • Done 11-29-21
• I suggest starting a new paragraph with "Riboflavin is sometimes overproduced, possibly as a protective mechanism..."
  • Done 11-29-21

Chemical properties

• I suggest replacing "having a slight odor and bitter taste" with "with a slight odor and bitter taste."
  • Done 11-29-21
• Please check whether wikilinks would be appropriate for polar, non-polar, chloroform, benzene, acetone.
  • Not done. The Wikilink to solvent describes polar and non-polar. I would prefer to not add links for the chemicals so as to avoid overlinking; as riboflavin is not soluble in these chemicals links would not add to better knowledge about riboflavin 11-29-21

Medical uses

• Please wikilink [[topical medication|topically]] and [[Ultraviolet#UVA|Ultraviolet A]].
  • DONE 11-29-21
• I suggest rephrasing "included high-dose riboflavin (400 mg) as" with "stated that high-dose bioflavin (400 mg) is"
  • DONE 11-29-21
• Please replace "and not recommended" at the end of the final sentence of this section with "and supplements are not recommended". (Otherwise it sounds as if the research is not recommended!)
  • DONE 11-29-21

Dietary recommendations

• "the" missing after "The National Academy of Medicine updated" in the first sentence.
  • Done 12-1-21
• Please replace "ages 14 and up" with "aged 14 and over"
  • Done 12-1-21 Other uses of "ages" changed to "aged"
• I suggest replacing "so as to identify amounts that will cover people with higher than average requirements" with "to provide adequate intake levels for individuals with higher than average requirements".
  • Done 12-1-21
• Missing "are" in the sentence "AI and UL defined the same as in United States."
  • Done 12-1-21
• Please replace "ages 15 and older" with "aged 15 and over"
  • Done 12-1-21
• Please replace "The EFSA also reviewed the safety question and like the U.S..." with "The EFSA also considered the maximum safe intake and like the U.S. National Academy of Medicine..."
  • Done 12-1-21
• Please rearrange the first two sentences of the "Safety" subsection to read "In humans, there is no evidence for riboflavin toxicity produced by excessive intakes and absorption becomes less efficient as doses increases. Any excess riboflavin is excreted via the kidneys into urine, resulting in a bright yellow color known as flavinuria." (Please also add appropriate wikilinks.)
  • Done 12-1-21
• The final sentence of the safety subsection is too long. I suggest you rephrase so that it reads "During a clinical trial on the effectiveness of riboflavin for treating the frequency and severity of migraines, subjects were given up to 400 mg of riboflavin orally per day for periods of 3-12 months. Among side effects reported were abdominal pains and diarrhea" or similar.
  • Done 12-1-21

Intake table

• Please provide a title for this table, so that it is more obvious what it means. e.g. "Daily intakes for riboflavin recommended by relevant agencies"
  • Done 11-30-21 Used "Recommended daily intakes"
• Please make it clear which body in the United States is making the recommendation
  • Not done 11-30-21 Ref numbers 4 and 27 in the right side column indicate where the RDA and PRI numbers come from.
    • I am not satisfied with this response How can you head the top half of the table with "Recommended daily intakes United States" and the bottom half with "European Food Safety Authority"? You should either write "Recommended daily allowances United States" and "Population Reference Intakes European Union" OR "Recommended daily allowances US National Academy of Medicine" and "Population Reference Intakes European Food Safety Authority". Mertbiol (talk) 14:28, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
      • Revised to your first set of suggested titles. 12-1-21
• Please remove the additional cell in the title row of the EFSA section.
  • Done 11-30-21 if you meant removing the empty cell third column

Thats all for now, I will add more comments later. Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 18:04, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Sources

• I do not understand how you have grouped/ordered the items in the food composition tables. I suggest reorganising so that (e.g.) meat, fish and dairy products are in the left table, cereals and grains are in the centre and other vegetables are on the right.
  • Not done. The columns are not catagories. Verly loosely, the order is high to low, with attempt to include foods commonly eaten and foods that would allow a lacto-ovo-vegetarian or vegan to meet dietary recommendations.
    • I am not satisfied with this response A very loose order is not good enough - you need to address this properly. You either order by riboflavin content (from high to low) or you group according to class of foodstuff. Why is (e.g.) turkey below beef in your order as it stands? Mertbiol (talk) 14:28, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
• There is a comma instead of a decimal point in the entry for Whey in the left hand table.
  • Done 11-30-21
• I cannot find a mention of “The milling of cereals results in considerable loss (up to 60%) of riboflavin” in reference [3]. Please provide a suitable reference.
  • Done 11-30-21 That unreferenced statement was in the article when I started my GA effort in early October 2021. Found a ref that states 85% loss.
• I suggest replacing "bovine milk" with "cows milk".
  • Done 11-30-21
• I suggest replacing "India stipulates 1.5 mg/kg for wheat flour" with "The Indian governments recommends 1.5 mg/kg for wheat flour."
  • Done 11-30-21
• Please provide a better source for "India stipulates 1.5 mg/kg for wheat flour" which does not require so much searching in the linked database.
  • Done 11-30-21 Replaced with ref that recommends (optional) 4 mg/kg ("maida" and "atta" are white and whole wheat flour, respectively)

Adsorption, metabolism, excretion

• I suggest rephrasing the first sentence of this section as "More than 90% of riboflavin in the diet is in the form of FMN and FAD, bound to proteins." which better represents the text in reference [3].
  • Done 11-30-21
• I suggest replacing "frees" with "releases" in the second sentence.
  • Done 11-30-21
• Please change "maximal" to "maximum" and "was" to "is" in the phrase: "the maximal amount of riboflavin that can be absorbed from a single dose was 27 mg".
  • Done 11-30-21
• I suggest changing the final sentence of the second paragraph to read "Infants with mutations in the genes encoding these transport proteins can be treated with riboflavin administered orally." to better reflect reference [32].
  • Done 11-30-21
• Please link [[urine specific gravity]], [[urine osmolality]] and [[feces]].
  • Done 11-30-21

Deficiency

• Please link [[cranial nerves]], [[acyl-CoA-dehydrogenase]] and [[chronic stress]].
  • Done 11-29-21
• I suggest transferring the details of the EGRAC to a footnote, as this information seems too detailed for the main text of an encyclopedia.
  • Not done. Instead, shortened second parapgraph by removing analysis details. 11/29/21

History

Entire section rewritten

• I think you need to explain the meaning of "egg white injury" - you could do this in a footnote.
  • Not done. Instead, deleted all mention, It and the thiamin text were in retrospect a digression into research teasing out the B vitamins.
• The connection between the final sentence of the second paragraph and riboflavin in unclear. Thiamin is not mentioned previously in the article. I suggest deleting this sentence.
  • Done 11-30-21
• I think you need to expand on "leading to evidence in 1939 that riboflavin was essential for human health". What evidence was produced in 1939?
  • Done 11-30-21
• Please change "caused" to "causes" in the first sentence of the final paragraph.
  • Done 11-30-21

See also

• Flavin in already linked in the article, so I suggest deleting this section.
  • Done. Section removed, as flavin was the only item listed 11-29-21

First pass

That's everything for the first pass. You have already told me that you are going away on vacation, so there is no rush to respond. Over to you. Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 10:15, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

As I respond to each bullet I will add an indented Done underneath, with a date. If not complying exactly, I will start my response indented and Bold. David notMD (talk) 16:02, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

History section completely rewritten 11-30-31. Please review again if you do a second round of suggested changes. David notMD (talk) 13:13, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

A Laboratory synthesis subsection has been added with a chem diagram by another editor. David notMD (talk) 17:43, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

I am not satisfied with the responses that you have made to my comments on the tables. Please address these issues properly. Mertbiol (talk) 14:28, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

See revised for the RDAs and PRIs tables. David notMD (talk) 20:06, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Second pass

I have made several tweaks to the article, mostly to improve the flow of the prose. In particular, I have cut a few very long sentences into two parts, to make them easier for a lay person to read and understand. I have also made some of the changes that I requested above, but that the nominator had skipped.
There are a few instances when I have been unable to verify facts in the article in the reference provided:

• I cannot find a mention of E101a in reference [8] (PubChem database)

 Done Ref to current UKFSA added: both riboflavin and FMN are called E101 now. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:18, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

• I cannot see where "Beyond a load dose of 1.1 mg, urinary excretion increased rapidly, so that with a dose of 2.5 mg, urinary content was 800 micrograms" is supported in reference [4] (Institute of Medicine)
  • Figure 5.1 shows urinary excretion increasing rapidly and a value of 800 micrograms for dose of 2.5 mg. Sentence reworded to end as "...so that with a dose of 2.5 mg, urinary output was 800 micrograms for a 24-hour urine collection."
• I cannot see where "The name "riboflavin" comes from "ribose" (the sugar whose reduced form, ribitol, forms part of its structure) and "flavin", the ring-moiety which imparts the yellow color to the oxidized molecule (from Latin flavus, "yellow")" is supported in reference [10] (Micronutrient Information Center, Linus Pauling Institute)
  • Ref swap: It is Present Knowledge in Nutrition, not Linus Pauling, stating that "flavin" was derived from the Latin "flavus" for yellow

I am also not a huge fan of using the reference [8] (PubChem database) in general and I would like to see the original research papers cited alongside the PubChem database.

• • Partially addressed I removed two of the six uses of PubMed as a reference, as the factual content in the text is adequately supported by another ref (Institute of Medicine/DRIs). The other four appear to be simple factual statements about solubility, toxic fumes if heated, orange/yellow color.

Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 21:16, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

I am once again in front of my computer. Will address these ASAP. PubChem existed as a ref before I started serious work on bringing this to GA; I will replace as much as I can. David notMD (talk) 10:53, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

@David notMD: As I mentioned earlier, I'm don't believe Pubchem should be used for substantive information, although it is probably OK for simple statements about colour, for example. I removed some of the those earlier citations and am happy to help with finding alternative sources (especially chemistry) if you run into problems. Just ping me here for any you need help with. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:58, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

@Mertbiol: Between my work and that by Michael D. Turnbull, I believe the second pass comments have been addressed. David notMD (talk) 18:41, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Final Verdict

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   Well referenced.

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   Well referenced.

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   Well illustrated.

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

   Well illustrated.

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Congratulations to @David notMD: and @Michael D. Turnbull: I think this article has now reached GA standard. Well done to both of you!! I have very much enjoyed reviewing the article. Thanks and best wishes, Mertbiol (talk) 21:13, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Outstanding work and tenacious determination by David and Michael. Thanks and congratulations. Zefr (talk) 21:39, 9 December 2021 (UTC)