Talk:Zoroaster

Requested move 4 January 2022

Zoroaster → Zarathustra – "Move" was the original name of this template, and we should revert to that. Cahmad25 (talk) 21:37, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Edits of Manzarene

@Wario-Man and HistoryofIran: I have removed the violations of WP:RGW and WP:SYNTH done by Manzarene, who is currently blocked for socking, on these edits. Recent edits by other editors like [1][2][3] also show that the claims he made on the article are not exactly supported by the sources or the information is too WP:EXCEPTIONAL. I just thought of notifying you both since you are actively watching this article. Zakaria1978 (talk) 03:09, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I am rather inclined to question your major removal of seemingly reliably sourced information (as well of the infobox date). Did you really check each reference? Where did you find that Zoroaster is "generally dated to 7-6th millennium BCE"?--Miki Filigranski (talk) 22:03, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Then you are wholly wrong if you are going to question on such poor basis. I don't see where "each reference" contradict that particular information.

"Australian Soul: Religion and Spirituality in the 21st Century", Cambridge University, p. 60 says "600 BCE".[4]

"The Zoroastrian Faith: Tradition and Modern Research", MQUP, p.16 says 599 - 522 BCE.[5]

Other highly reliable sources suggest, 660 - 583 BCE[6], 6th century BCE[7], 7th century BCE[8], and they are in line with the lead (which you have apparently ignored) which say "Most scholars date him in the 7th and 6th century BC as a near-contemporary of Cyrus the Great and Darius I". There is no need to provide misleading dating on infobox. Zakaria1978 (talk) 04:36, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

The claim that 'most scholars' believe in a 7th-6th c. BC date is unequivocally false, and indeed is directly contradicted by nearly every single one of the 6 sources cited for the claim on the page:

Lincoln's statement, already included verbatim in the References section - "At present, the majority opinion among scholars probably inclines toward the end of the second millennium or the beginning of the first, although there are still those who hold for a date in the seventh century".

The Fischer text (p. 59) - "For a time, scholars supported such a sixth- or seventh-century B.C.E. dating... But earlier dates have also been proposed, and a new consensus seems now to support the (also speculative) date of 1080-1500 B.C.E."

The Ancient History Encyclopedia's only remarks on dating - "The dates of c. 1500-1000 BCE are commonly accepted for the time in which he lived, taught, and founded his religion based on a long tradition of scholarly work on the timeline of the Early Iranian Religion, evidence of the acceptance of Zoroastrianism, and references in the Avesta."

The Goucher & Walton text (p. 100) - "Scholars still disagree as to when Zoroaster lived, either in the late second millennium BCE... or centuries later in the sixth century BCE"; their timeline on p. 86 speculatively dates him to the 13th c. BC

The Boyce text (p. 3) - "That the date of Zoroaster was somewhere between 1000 and 900 B.C., or perhaps even earlier, was formerly the opinion of most Western scholars, including [10 names listed]. The support given to the date of "258 years before Alexander" in recent decades is largely due to the powerful advocacy of [3 names listed]; but the authenticity of this date has latterly been strongly challenged again"; Boyce is likewise quoted on this very page as personally dating him between 1700-1000 BC.

The West text is the only one that endorses the younger dating, but even West does not claim most scholars support one side, he instead states (p. 4) - "As to when he lived, scholars are divided between those who put him in the seventh or sixth century BCE and those who uphold a much higher dating, around 1000 BCE or even earlier."

65.175.175.141 (talk) 18:13, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Just wanted to give some further clarity regarding this since I noticed the error had recently been re-introduced in a reversion of someone else's edits to that section. The contradiction described above emerged because that segment (with its sources) was first added to the page in September 2016 reading:

"some put him in the 7th and 6th century BCE as a contemporary or near-contemporary of Cyrus the Great and Darius I, while others on linguistic and socio-cultural evidence around 1000 BCE and earlier.[4][5][6][7]"

i.e. the claim which it again has been fixed to reflect ('some scholars support x, others y, there is no consensus'). It wasn't until August 7th 2020 when, for reasons I am unclear on, it was rephrased to say 'most scholars' while leaving the extant (unsupportive) sources.

146.168.6.190 (talk) 02:32, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Influences section is misleading

Some passages in the Influences section are, I think, inappropriate on this article. Some of the material in there doesn't refer to Zoroaster's personal influence, but rather to the influence of Zoroastrism, and hence a relevant subject in that entry and not in this one. For instance, "The Sabaeans, who believed in free will coincident with Zoroastrians, are also mentioned in the Quran.[64]" doesn't appear relevant Severian79 (talk) 20:30, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Suggested for possible addition

Posted on the Facebook group "The Magic of Persia" c/o https://www.facebook.com/groups/290303672159850/ on August 1, 2021. Post reads as follows:

"Persians became a by-word of judicial incorruptibility and harshness, throughout the subject lands. It was the Zoroastrians who gave the world legal principles enshrined in the law of evidence and procedure. Legal concepts like arbitration, representation by a lawyer, release on bail, power of attorney and execution of wills are of Persian origin, later picked up by the Greeks and Romans.

"In recognition of Zoroastrian contribution to the development of law, a statue of Zoroaster stands in the Court of the Appellate Division in New York, near Madison Square and 23rd Street.

"Another statue of the Persian prophet Zoroaster/Zarathustra stands on the main entrance of the Rockefeller Chapel on the campus of the University of Chicago, made by the American sculptor Lee Lawrie (1877 - 1963)"

Cliffewiki (talk) 20:22, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Zoroaster 1.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:27, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Name of Article

sorry for the terrible formatting and also me kinda screwing up the whole name change proposal system, i'm not really sure how to do it (i'd be glad to read about it if anyone is interesting in giving me a link). I'd argue that the name of the article should be Zarathustra and not Zoroaster. Zoroaster is (as talked about in the article!) a name given by the greeks, and imo shouldn't be used. The reason i say Zarathustra as opposed to the other variants in various versions of the persian language is because it's more recognizable to the average reader than Zartosht, for example. Britannica also uses Zarathustra instead of Zoroaster Cahmad25 (talk) 23:39, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

@Cahmad25: If you want to suggest a change of article name (formally called "moving"), use the template {{Requested move}}. Go to the template page and follow the instructions on how to use it. Gaioa (T C L) 19:17, 4 January 2022 (UTC)