Talk:Hyperspace/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: TompaDompa (talk · contribs) 21:10, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm planning to do a full review fairly soon, but here are some initial observations:

• Significant alternative titles should be presented in bold per MOS:BOLDALTNAMES. I would suggest either bolding the ones that redirect to the article (nulspace and overspace) and removing the rest from the WP:LEAD or removing all of them from the WP:LEAD since a whole bunch of them are mentioned in the "Later depictions" section.
• I would link to Amazing Stories Quarterly in the WP:LEAD.
• I wouldn't personally use the image of the magazine cover in the "Early depictions" section at all since it is fairly tangential to the subject of Hyperspace, but regardless of that it seems to be an issue of Amazing Stories Quarterly and not Amazing Stories as the caption says.
• The first paragraph of the "Early depictions" section does not seem to be fully supported by the cited source, and it is also not really about hyperspace.

TompaDompa (talk) 21:10, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

C/e done. What do you think is not supported in that paragraph? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:29, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

A specific detail would be the use of demons in Somnium, but more generally (and importantly), the notion that these types of space travel using a fictional existence outside what humans normally observe are precursors to hyperspace is the kind of analysis that really needs to come from the sources. TompaDompa (talk) 00:36, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Ahm, you are right. Perhaps I referenced the Somnium part then got distracted and forgot to verify the rest. You are right, this is ORish and cannot be kept for now. I've removed it from the body. The full paragraph is below, for reference by others. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:04, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Some additional comments:

• The article should consistently use "hyperspace" rather than "hyper-space" outside of direct quotes.
• Spaced hyphens should be replaced with spaced en dashes or unspaced em dashes.
• Curly apostrophes should be replaced with straight ones.
• FTL should be replaced with "faster-than-light" or "superluminal", while keeping the link (and the other instance should also be replaced). The reader shouldn't have to click the link to understand the text.
• "With regards to" should be "with regard to".
• The only source that says anything about Kirk Meadowcroft's "The Invisible Bubble" (1928) is the Historical Dictionary of Science Fiction, which only notes that the term "hyper-space" appears in the text. That is not sufficient sourcing. The other sources credit Campbell with introducing the term in this sense.
• Space opera should be linked.
• The sentence The term hyperspace itself is only used as hyperspace physics test in episode Coming of Age of Star Trek: The Next Generation. is incorrectly formatted and missing a definite article, but should probably just be removed outright.
• "eponymous Dark Star spaceship" is redundant; "eponymous spaceship" is sufficient.
• According to The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction, Robert A. Heinlein gave a particularly clear description of it in Starman Jones (1953). is not particularly informative. The description used is discussed in The Science in Science Fiction and The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Science Fiction and Fantasy.
• The first image's caption now has an accidental WP:REDLINK.
• "by mid-70s" – missing definite article.
• In Arthur C. Clarke's Technical Error (1950) should link to Technical Error and the title should be in quotes rather than italics since it seems to be a short story.
• The reasons given for such restrictions are usually technobabble, but their existence is just a plot device allowing for interstellar policies to actually form and exist. is not as far as I can see supported by either of the cited sources.
• The issue of causality that The Science in Science Fiction and The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction bring up should be covered in the article.

I'll keep adding comments as I go. TompaDompa (talk) 00:44, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

I am working on this, slowly due to some issues (that I think you are aware off, at least, the on wiki ones). Anyway, my brain usually refuses to engage with stuff like "Spaced hyphens should be replaced with spaced en dashes or unspaced em dashes. Curly apostrophes should be replaced with straight ones.", so if you could tackle these, I'd appreciate it. And as for "The issue of causality that The Science in Science Fiction and The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction bring up should be covered in the article.", I can't find the relevant discussions, so since I assume you are fresher on this, can I ask you to add something relevant on this as well? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:31, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Additional comments:

• From early 20th century onward, hyperspace became a common element of space travel stories in science fiction. is a stronger assertion than the cited source supports. What the source (written in 1963) says is that it "can take its place as a fixture in the genre." and "Hyper-space goes back a very long way in the annals of sf, back into the '20s at least".
• Vector (magazine) should probably be linked in the citation where it appears.
• Murray Leinster is credited with using the word "hyper-drive" for the first time in a preview for his upcoming story in Thrilling Wonder Stories 1944: "Once again Kim takes off in the Starshine with its hyper-drive to do battle in defense of the Second Galaxy." is a stronger assertion than the cited source supports. The source does not mention Leinster in connection to this quote and while this is the earliest example listed, the source does not assert that it is the first use. The Historical Dictionary of Science Fiction is explicitly a work-in-progress.
• As related vocabulary evolved, entering the hyperspace often became known as "jumping", as in "the ship will now jump to hyperspace". is as far as I can tell a misreading of the cited source, which says "if the method of entry into hyper-space has changed but little, then the method of its navigation has changed even less. The classic method is that of 'jumps' [...]" My reading of this is that jumps relate to the latter (navigation) rather than the former (entry).
• From the 1930s through to the 1950s, many stories in the science fiction magazines, Amazing Stories and Astounding Science Fiction introduced readers to hyperspace as a fourth spatial dimension is not supported by either of the cited sources. The timeframe isn't supported and the specific magazines aren't mentioned. As for hyperspace being a fourth spatial dimension, it would better reflect the sources to say that (this model of) hyperspace has rather than is additional dimensions and to avoid specifying the number (though the sources are a bit inconsistent about this).
• an idea that the three-dimensional space can be "folded", so that two apparently distant points may come into contact is WP:Close paraphrasing and should be rephrased.
• a special device, often called a "hyperdrive" is not supported by the cited sources.
• Another common explanation involves the concept of a parallel universe, much smaller than ours, which partially or fully can be "mapped" into ours, through which the objects travel through to return to our universe. needs copyediting for clarity.
• Other notable early works employing this concept include Nelson Bond's The Scientific Pioneer Returns (1940), where his vision of the hyperspace concept is described in detail. Isaac Asimov's Foundation series, first published between 1942 and 1944 in Astounding, featured a Galactic Empire traversed through hyperspace. is not really supported by the cited source, which says that [hyperspace] was still sufficiently unfamiliar to be foregrounded as a novel idea in Nelson S. Bond's "The Scientific Pioneer Returns" (1940) and doesn't mention Asimov at all.
• Asimov's short story Little Lost Robot (1947) features a "Hyperatomic Drive" shortened to "Hyperdrive" and observes that "fooling around with hyper-space isn't fun". That it is shortened to "hyperdrive" is not mentioned by the source, and the quote isn't either (though the latter could trivially be sourced to the work itself). I would suggest removing this altogether—the relevance of this particular example is questionable and paragraph is too Asimov-heavy as it is.
• In Isaac Asimov's Foundation (1951), hyperspace is described as an "...unimaginable region that was neither space nor time, matter nor energy, something nor nothing, one could traverse the length of the Galaxy in the interval between two neighboring instants of time." I'm not sure about the placement of this. What is it meant to illustrate?
• E. C. Tubb has been credited with "furthering much of the hyper-space lore" The actual quote from the cited source is A British author who has done much to further hyper-space lore is E. C. Tubb., so the quotation marks are inappropriate since it isn't a direct quote. I would probably rephrase it along the lines of E. C. Tubb has been credited with playing an important role in the development of hyperspace lore (I also note that the other source says things like British author E.C. Tubb has probably written more about hyper-space than any other author., In two years, Tubb proceeded to make hyper-space his own, and Tubb came up with several new slants). Otherwise, the stuff on Tubb is great and could even be expanded somewhat (the part about rockets not being usable while in hyperspace seems like it should be mentioned somewhere in the article considering both cited sources mention it).
• Duplicate references: Science Fact and Science Fiction: An Encyclopedia is cited twice.

More to come later. TompaDompa (talk) 03:53, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

re "From early 20th century onward, hyperspace became a common element of space travel stories in science fiction." I guess this is really subjective. I think the current wording is fine. How would you propose to reword it? I'll ping User:Nihil novi, a friendly copyeditor who might have a nice solution? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:35, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Rewritten the part, feel free to tweak. Re "Vector (magazine) should probably be linked in the citation where it appears.", in my experience this is not common in citation templates. Also rewrote the Murray Leinster per your comments. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:44, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Just a note that I've done most of what you asked. Please see if rephrasing/reference updates look good for you. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:03, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

I might say that it emerged during the second quarter of the 20th century and that it eventually became a common feature (and I'd probably add some more sources to back that up). Note that Stableford says that it was still sufficiently unfamiliar to be foregrounded as a novel idea in Nelson S. Bond's "The Scientific Pioneer Returns" (1940). The current phrasing makes it sound like both the introduction and the widespread adoption of the concept happened earlier than it did. TompaDompa (talk) 16:59, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Additional comments:

• By the 1950s, hyperspace travel had become established as a typical means for traveling in science fiction. is not supported by the cited source.
• Out of various fictitious drives, by the mid-70s the concept of travelling through hyperspace by using a hyperdrive has been described as having achieved the most popularity, and would subsequently be further popularized through its use in the Star Wars franchise. is not supported by the cited sources.
• A number of related terms (such as nulspace, overspace, interspace, jumpspace, imaginary space, tau-space, N-Space, Q-space, intersplit, megaflow and slipstream, to name just a few) were used by various writers, although none gained recognition to rival that of hyperspace. should mention subspace. I couldn't find "jumpspace" in the cited sources. It seems that "intersplit" is actually called "Jarnell intersplit". "Slipstream" is not equated with hyperspace in the source it appears. The phrase "to name just a few" should be removed.
• However, in the Star Trek franchise, the term hyperspace itself is only used briefly in a single episode (Coming of Age) of Star Trek: The Next Generation, while a related set of terms - subspace (corridors, vortex), space warp, underspace and transwarp (conduits) - are used much more often. unduly emphasizes Star Trek and isn't entirely supported by the cited sources. I would just remove this.
• The paragraph about depictions in film goes too much off-topic. What's relevant here is Dark Star being the first film depiction and that its way of portraying hyperspace has become popular since. Inspirations and specific examples of later uses of this effect warrant at most brief mentions. This will probably necessitate finding new sources as I think Kitbashed, for instance, probably doesn't count as a reliable source.

TompaDompa (talk) 16:59, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

@TompaDompa "Out of various fictitious drives..." - I think it does, SW popularizing is from here. For jumpspace, see [1], also see footnote here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_travel_in_science_fiction#cite_note-35 - should we copy it here or to the sentence we mention "jumping"? Re, slipstrea, it is mentioned as a "related term", which is fine, given the problem with next to no reliable sources discussing it, particularly outside Star Trek. Re the Star Trek reference, I think it's ok-ish, Star Trek is an important franchise and pointing out it doesn't use hyperspace concept much is, I think, interesting. I think the film paragraphs is fine, although I'd like to see your rewrite attempt? IIRC it's not my work but something that was added by others and just slightly rewritten/referenced by me during my rewrite here. As usual, it's hard to try to rescuse mostly unreferenced fancruft... double sigh. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:15, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, there's a reason I have elected to rewrite these articles from scratch rather than trying to find sources for the existing content. TompaDompa (talk) 23:04, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Sorry this is taking so long. Additional comments:

• feature earliest known references – missing definite article.
• Bulking that trend – I believe the phrase is "bucking the trend", but it is at any rate too informal and idiomatic a phrasing.
• the earliest use of the word "hyper-drive" – the earliest known use, to be more accurate.
• (in particular, theory of relativity) – should explain how (it's the issue of causality I mentioned above). It should also either be "relativity theory" or "the theory of relativity".
• aptly originated in 19th century mathematical texts – "aptly" is out of place here, and "19th-century" should have a hyphen when used attributively.
• theoretical physicist Michio Kaku's popular science book (Hyperspace, 1994) – I might say "[...] 1994 popular science book Hyperspace", but "[...] popular science book Hyperspace (1994)" is also acceptable and more consistent with the rest of the article. The title shouldn't be inside the parentheses, however.
• Some science fiction writers attempted pseudo-scientific rubber science explanations of this concept, or mixed it with real scientific concepts such as higher dimensions, relativity or string theory. – I would say "quasi-scientific" rather than "pseudo-scientific", and remove everything after the comma (it doesn't seem to be entirely supported by the sources and is at any rate a bit redundant to the rubber science description).
• Exceptions do exist, for example, in John Russel Fearn's Waters of Eternity (1953) has hyperspace that resembles the known universe, and contains observable objects like entire planets. – this is an anacoluthon. Either remove "has" or "in" and "that". It should also be mentioned that regular space is visible from a different (higher-dimensional) perspective from within hyperspace (the source says [...] a picture of his fourth dimension wherein the worlds of normal space are also visible. Not for him the convenient grey mist, wherein our own universe vanishes.) in addition to hyperspace containing things not found in regular space.
• Neither The Mystery of Element 117 nor Technical Error seem to be mentioned in the cited source. Was a different source intended?
• I would say "regular space" or "ordinary space", not "[the] normal space".
• I don't think the twist in Redshift Rendezvous is that travel takes longer than in regular space, but that relativistic effects appear at low velocities (see the SFE entry on Hyperspace and page 405 of The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Science Fiction and Fantasy).
• In some works, hyperspace is a source of energy, in some cases, extremely dangerous – repetitive phrasing.
• Many stories feature hyperspace as a dangerous place, and others require a ship to follow set hyperspatial "highways". Hyperspace is often described as being an unnavigable dimension where straying from a preset course can be disastrous. – this seems to go beyond what is supported by the cited sources.
• James P. Hogan observed that (as of 1999) hyperspace still remains underutilized in science-fiction writing, treated too often as a plot-enabling gadget rather than as a fascinating, world-changing item – this goes beyond what Hogan actually says and inappropriately frames his opinions as facts.
• The caption for the first image should start "The earliest [...]"
• The captions for the first two images should end with periods.

TompaDompa (talk) 23:04, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Missed your recent comments, will work on this tomorrow! _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:31, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Additional comments:

• The order of the short description and whatnot should follow MOS:LEADORDER.
• a concept from science fiction and cutting-edge science – the latter doesn't really reflect either the article or the sources. The term appears in science, but the concept is a different story. We mustn't equivocate.
• relating to higher dimensions and a superluminal method of interstellar travel – "superluminal" is too opaque to use in the WP:LEAD (even when linked), which is supposed to be accessible to a degree not required for the rest of the article. "Faster-than-light" would be an acceptable replacement (which should still be linked).
• I might rephrase the first sentence altogether, along the lines of "Hyperspace is a science fiction method of travelling faster than light." and put all additional information/elaboration in one or more separate sentences after that.
• It is related to the concept of four-dimensional space, first described in the 19th century. – this is a bit redundant to mentioning higher dimensions and getting a bit off-topic. The history of the mathematical literature on four-dimensional space is not WP:LEAD material in an article about a science fiction method of travelling through space.
• Its use in science fiction originated in the magazine Amazing Stories Quarterly around the 1930s – the specific magazine would seem to imply that Campbell's Islands of Space is counted as the definite origin (Meadowcroft's "The Invisible Bubble" was in a different magazine) whereas the vague time frame seems to indicate that it isn't.
• It is typically described as an alternative "sub-region" of space co-existing with our own universe. – it is not clear what this means. This sentence could probably be removed, since the next sentence begins In much of science fiction, hyperspace is described as a physical place that can be entered and exited [...].
• using a rubber science energy field or similar phenomena generated by a shipboard device often known as a "hyperdrive". – the body of the article doesn't mention energy fields and "shipboard" is kind of an WP:EASTEREGG.
• Detailed descriptions of the mechanisms of hyperspace travel are often provided in stories using the plot device – "often" is highly questionable.
• sometimes incorporating some actual physics such as relativity or string theory. – should be removed (see my comments about the corresponding sentence in the body, above).
• Philip Harbottle called the concepts "one of the fixtures" of the science fiction genre as early as in 1963. – this is at the very least out of place. Could perhaps be incorporated in the first paragraph as an indication of why the topic is noteworthy.
• Many stories [...] called a "hyperdrive". – this sentence has six commas.
• In general, I think the WP:LEAD might have to be rewritten to reflect the changes made to the article since the lead was written, but I'll reserve final judgment until I've seen what the rest of the article looks like when it has been edited to fix the issues I have raised.
• Similarly, I think the article's structure might need reworking. It's a bit difficult to tell until the content itself has been fixed, however.

TompaDompa (talk) 01:02, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   The prose needs copyediting per my comments above.

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

   MOS:LEAD and MOS:WTW are not currently met.

2. Is it verifiable with no original research?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:

   At least one of the sources is non-reliable, as mentioned above.

   C. It contains no original research:

   Several instances of material not being supported by the cited sources. See my comments above.

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

   There is one instance of close paraphrasing, as mentioned above.

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   There do not seem to be any major aspects of the topic missing, going by the sources. I have given some suggestions about ways to further improve the article by addressing additional aspects or going into more depth about the ones that are already covered.

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

   The article does not stay focused on the topic at all times. The paragraph about depictions in film is the clearest example of this.

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

   Presents opinion as fact in one spot, as mentioned above.

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   All images are either public domain or CC BY-SA 4.0 (the latter being fine for media but not for text per WP:CFAQ).

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

   The two images about the streaking stars effect will need to be removed if the prose about it is, however. The captions need some minor copyediting per my comments above but what the captions actually say is fine.

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   Further fixes are needed before this can be listed as a WP:Good article. This does not need to happen within any particular deadline.

I will update this as the article is edited further. TompaDompa (talk) 01:02, 21 January 2022 (UTC)